Left hand position

[BradB]

I did a search and found another good thread on left hand position. My specific question is regarding the position of the hand against the treble side of the neck. I rest the neck where the index finger joins the palm, as many players do, but I feel like I press this area pretty firmly into the neck, creating tension. I feel like I need to squeeze between my thumb and where the hand rests on the treble side of the neck in order to get enough leverage to properly fret the notes. If I move the index finger away from the neck and try to just use finger pressure to fret the notes it feels awkward and it's hard to get enough pressure to cleanly fret the notes. My setup is fairly low and easy, so that't not the issue.

I was watching Tim O-Brien's instructional video, and it appears that his left hand often doesn't touch the treble side of the neck -- only his thumb and fingertips are touching the mando. It looks more relaxed and efficient than my technique. Is this just a matter of finger strength? What do most of you do?

Brad B.

[jasona]

I find that a strap is crucial to a relaxed left hand. The more I ractice, the lighter my touch is getting too.

[mandocrucian]

The more classical thing is to support the instrument with the thumb. It's got certain advantages and other disadvantages. If you do it this way, the left hand does not support any of the weight of the instrument. Stabilization of the instrument is done with a combination of the right forearm and resting the instrument on the leg(s) when sitting. Standing, you probably ought to be using a strap.

When the neck is in contact with the (palm side of) the index finger knuckle, the hand merely supports the weight of the neck; you shouldn't even need a strap. The contact with the thumb on the other side of the neck is very light, helping to stabilize the hand position. #You shouldn't be squeezing the neck between the thumb/hand.

The instrument neck should be angled forward 30-45 degrees, not held parallel to your front/chest. And on an upward incline of 30-45 degrees. This is the most tension free positioning of the instrumet for both the right and left sides. It's similar to a karate/aikido "fighting stance", or you can think of it as carrying a shotgun or rifle in the woods.

Niles H

[Pete Martin]

I was shown by a great performing arts doc to use a strap all the time, sitting or standing. #The strap takes the weight, letting the left hand be free to work. #She taught me to place where the index finger joins the palm of the hand next to the E string side of the neck VERY GENTLY. #Dont squeeze with the thumb. #Where the fingers meet the palm of the hand should be level with the top of the fingerboard.

She also taught me to sit in such a way that the strap can take the weight. #In addition to being able to play pain free and being more fluid with the left hand, I found I was holding the instrument in exactly the same place ALL the time. #That one key for developing consistency, I feel.

Best of luck. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[BradB]

The more classical thing is to support the instrument with the thumb. It's got certain advantages and other disadvantages. If you do it this way, the left hand does not support any of the weight of the instrument. Stabilization of the instrument is done with a combination of the right forearm and resting the instrument on the leg(s) when sitting. Standing, you probably ought to be using a strap.

When the neck is in contact with the (palm side of) the index finger knuckle, the hand merely supports the weight of the neck; you shouldn't even need a strap. The contact with the thumb on the other side of the neck is very light, helping to stabilize the hand position. #You shouldn't be squeezing the neck between the thumb/hand.

The instrument neck should be angled forward 30-45 degrees, not held parallel to your front/chest. And on an upward incline of 30-45 degrees. This is the most tension free positioning of the instrumet for both the right and left sides. It's similar to a karate/aikido "fighting stance", or you can think of it as carrying a shotgun or rifle in the woods.

Niles H
Niles, when you say angled forward 30-45 degrees, do you mean pointing the face of the mandolin toward the ground?

Brad B

[mandocrucian]

<span style='font-family:courier'>N
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# # ##XXN # # #
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If you are in a circle facing N, the mando neck should be pointed forward to NW, not sideways to W. The face of the instrument is still perpendicular to the ground.

NH

[woodwiz]

I've been working pretty hard on this, and I pretty much agree with Petimar and Mandocrucian. Consistent position and relaxed hands help a lot. It's important to use the lightest touch possible with the left hand consistent with getting good tone, so finger placement is nearly as important as it is with a fiddle. Squeeze the neck and you'll choke your playing.

[sarakay]

The more classical thing is to support the instrument with the thumb. It's got certain advantages and other disadvantages. If you do it this way, the left hand does not support any of the weight of the instrument. Stabilization of the instrument is done with a combination of the right forearm and resting the instrument on the leg(s) when sitting. Standing, you probably ought to be using a strap.

Could you please elaborate on the classical position? #I play (more or less) an old bowlback so a strap is out for me. #I am using my thumb on the back of the neck, but I must be supporting the mando mostly with the thumb because I'm getting a lot of pressure on the thumb's ball joint. #How do you position the mandolin between the forearm and leg? #I am using a chamois as a lap cloth to help keep the bowl from moving around. #Thanks!

[250sc]

I've always found that a consistant possition for playing simplifies things. I'm always amazed when I see players (mostly bluegrass) who move the mando to a different possition, away from their bodies, when they take a solo. It seems they would have to be using their muscles differently, putting different stresses on their hands but it works for them.

[AlanN]

For the bowlbacker, check Kenny Hall. He sits that old tater bug right up on his knee, the headstock pointing to the sky.

I find the best technique is to minimize extraneous pressure anywhere. I play the best when the mandolin moves the least.

[an uncalloused fingertip]

I thought of this myself, and (indirectly) I found the solution from this very site. One post I read emphasized the importance of keeping your hand aligned, straight with your wrist. When I concentrated on holding this posture, the issue of comfortably supporting and playing the mandolin seems - for the most part - to have been resolved. My instrument rests lightly between my thumb and fingers; neither my thumb nor fingers feel tense. With my wrist straight, my arm is naturally aligned with my torso, and the instrument is set between forty and forty-five degrees away from my body. More importantly, my thumb comfortably rests along a good line - the middle of the neck. Before I paid attention to my wrist, it naturally curved inward, and my thumb felt awkward when not curled around the top of the neck.

Gene

[sarakay]

To AlanN,

I see what you mean! http://kennyhallband.com/


To Gene,

Thanks, I'm going to try keeping my wrist straight. #Can't say as I've ever noticed if it has been bent or not. #A straight wrist would probably take the pressure off the thumb. #You wouldn't think a mandolin neck would be heavy but after a couple of hours it seems so!

Sara

[Yuletide]

I've found that the sitting position with the mandolin nearly vertical helps a lot. #I cross my legs and place my A or bowl-backs in my lap so that they'll sit there all by themselves. #This way my left-hand thumb isn't supporting the instrument at all, the advantages of which I didn't appreciate at all until my younger daughter started taking violin lessons three years ago. My left hand moves much more freely now, and my left thumb stays down on the neck where it belongs. #An added bonus is that I can rest my right arm just below the elbow on my leg, which provides some steadiness in my right arm but allows it to pivot freely. #This enabled me to break a nasty 40 year habit of resting the last two fingers of my right hand on the belly of the instrument. #Still can't play worth a darn, but I'm playing better than before, and with a lot less pain.

Bob

[cam]

Does anyone else see any benefits from playing with the left-hand thumb going over the neck? There is a common attitude that this is a wrong way of playing the mandolin. I play Irish/Scottish tunes on mandolin, almost exclusively in the first position, and having large hands I find it fairly comfortable to play with my thumb over the neck. I play guitar too, both classical and popular styles. I am aware of the advantages of playing with the thumb behind the neck for classical pieces and tend to play classical using that style, but I also recognise the importance of playing with the thumb over the neck for rock, blues and pop styles (bendings, power chords, damping etc). In other words, the issue of thumb position depends on the task at hand, as determined by the style of music I am playing.

I find that by playing the mandolin with my thumb over the neck allows me to get a bigger fatter tone and I have more finger strength for hammers and pull-offs, of which there are a great many in Irish tunes. I can also play with my thumb behind the neck which results in a more nimble and lighter approach, but this somehow doesn't have the same muscle that playing over the neck has. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

[otterly2k]

I know what you're talking about, cam, and to some extent, each player figures out what works best for him/her. I myself, when playing guitar, sometimes loop my thumb over the neck in order to fret a bass note.

However, if you think about it... the hand posture you're talking about is much like a closed fist. A lot of strength, but little flexibility. And honestly, it should take THAT much strength to fret the strings. For me (with small hands) playing with a closed fist really limits my reach.

With a more open hand posture...one where the thumb rests on the back of the neck and hand is in an open curve such that the fingers come around to the strings from the front...extends my reach considerably, and gives me much more flexibility in positioning, etc.

And it definitely depends on having the strap holding the instrument up so my hand is free to play and not carry.

[cam]

Hi otterly. I wouldn't describe my playing position like a closed fist - that would be like holding the mando neck with my thumb and fingers wrapped around the neck! The Irish repertoire (which is what I play) can be played mostly in the first position without any hand shifts. Within this limited range, the thumb-over-the-neck position allows me a lot of flexibility and, like I said, a lot of strength for the frequent hammers, pulls and ornaments that are so crucial to Irish music (fretting the notes doesn't require much strength as you point out) I find that I need this stronger approach to be able to play the ornaments convincingly and with sufficient volume and snap.
The music determines the technique I reckon, and not the other way round.

[otterly2k]

ultimately, cam, whatever works!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif