Can a mando drive a bluegrass band ?

[sailaway]

I recall a thread some time ago about the theory of using mando to 'drive' a bluegrass band. we have good bass, 2 banjos (1 only plays clawhammer style) a fiddle and a mando.... BUT our guitar player has real health issues and can't play. I w/ mando have been trying to stand next to the bass player who is our lead singer and give him more melody - type notes on the mando mid-song instead of just chopping -- the problem is, the bass player relied on the rhythm guitar to set his notes to sing his lead . our 3 part harmony is falling apart on most every number -- and we can't' get another guitar guy trained up on the set list soon enough to meet some mid jan 06 commitments . Any suggestions from the accomplished musicians here http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif thanks... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Jim Gallaher]

My band consists of fiddle, mandolin, upright bass and banjo. The banjo player switches to guitar for a few tunes as needed.

I've noticed that the fiddle player, who is classically trained, plays simple harmony lines that "even out" the normally choppy rhythmic texture of bluegrass and provide a "bed" upon which the singer (typically me) lays the melody.

I think it's vital to the bluegrass sound to preserve the rhythm section of bass & mandolin intact. Perhaps your fiddle player could supply some of the missing "chord voicings" with chord tones or double-stops? I know some fiddlers just drop out when they aren't soloing.

As the mandolin player, I tend to cover most of the rhythmic territory occupied by the guitar. On the occasions when we have a guest guitarist, I play less complex rhythms.

[Clyde Clevenger]

You never, and I mean never need two banjo players playing at the same time, time to re-train.

[Albert Whiting]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2 BANJO PLAYERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dennis Schubert]

Free advice (and that's all it's worth)....

If y'all agree that a coherent BAND sound is most important (and that's what gets you the gigs) then it would be logical for one or both of the banjo players to double on guitar as needed. Hang the egos on a peg backstage, and do what you've got to do to entertain the folks. If you've got to have a few hair-raisin' double-banjo numbers, take your turn on the guitar, too.

[Eugene]

Can a mando drive a bluegrass #band ?
Sorry, no. #You'll have to join us on the dark side and play classical music now.

[Jason Kessler]

[/QUOTE]

I once heard of a guy named Bill Mothra or Will Monroe, something like that. He played mandolin or one of those little guitar thingies, like a ukelele or something. Actually sounded OK.

[GTison]

Godzilla!
I think you or someone in the group ( if they can play enough) need to fill in on the guitar if at all possible. though It's not the lead instrument many times. It does provide a canvas of sound that can't in my opinion (taste) be substituted. We've practiced in my group several times w/o guitar we do ok but it's not the kind of sound I would want to see on stage. Bill Monroe played the guitar (I think) in some of his early bands. He had his picture made with one anyway so he thought it was pretty important to his sound. Banjo on the other hand was called the 5th child of bluegrass after guitar, fiddle, mandolin, and bass. Sounds like you have twins.

[hellindc]

Drive them where? Down the highway of sorrow?

[keymandoplyr]

dont u just need 3 or 4 chords on guitar & a capo shouldnt be too hard ?

[sailaway]

well i am rolling on the floor laughing at some of the replies! Yes, we are trying to coexist with 2 banjos, both are good musicians and the clawhammer against the keith style 5 string sounds really good UNLESS you are standing in between them...

It is true that The Mon drove his band with a mando , and jimmy Martin's help on rhythm guitar. unfortunately neither is presently available....


I like the idea of having the fiddle play straight melody . our fiddle guy unfortunately likes way too much improvisation, and rarely plays the pure melody. that is one of the things that is breaking the vocal harmony, there is no clear melody line to follow unless the mando provides it. so i am doing my best to provide it but it still isn't working ... Maybe the solution is to beat up the fiddle player and make him play straight melody and forbid improvisational stuff as backup.

Eugene, i am still playing on the Dark Side. I cannot get the band to play the 3 Bach inventions i had worked up, (especially my favorite #13.) Or even the E minor Bourree. They would have none of it, despite Bela Fleck's grest example. More education of the bluegrass community is obviously necessary, or may be it is because there are no bluegrass words to the inventions praising faded loves or those crossing jordan for that great bluegrass highway in the sky http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?? i am by the way in the middle of the Munier #2 exercises and 20 minutes a day on them is one of the best practices. they remind me of the Czerny 'School of Velocity' or Hanon exercises.....

if the band falls apart I can just go back to trying to figure out the chopin minute waltz on mandolin....

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Garrett]

I think this really depends.

I think Monroe preferred to have the banjo player or the guitar player drive the tour bus, but they all took turns. I don't think Bill drove a lot, but that had less to do with the fact that he was the mando player than that he was Bill Monroe.

I do think that Paul Williams drove the car with Jimmy Martin a fair piece, but JD Crowe was under age so it made for less drivers. This might be the one time that JD was not the driver of the bluegrass band he was in.

[Eugene]

You are a diverse guy of eclectic and admirable taste, sailaway. Enjoy, guitar or none.

[mythicfish]

A mandolin player can drive a bluegrass band ... if you can deal with his (her) tendency for acceleration.

Curt

[Clyde Clevenger]

Last summer I had a bass player in a pickup band at a festival accuse me, me the rock, of speeding. I later watched a video of the show and sure enough, everytime I use quarter note triplets in a break the speed increased by one third. Seems this bass player had never played with a mandolin player before.

[cgwilsonjr]

IMO a guitar in BG music is indespensible.

[Dfyngravity]

You can survive with out the guitar, but it is definitely something you can't replace. Some times you will be listening to a song and you say hey I can't really hear the guitar. But if the guitar player stopped playing you would notice that it wasn't there. The guitar player just really brings all the other instruments together.

But the "drive" well actually the bass play really drives the band, along with the mandolin player. They are the two instruments that are playing the beat. But the bass really has the job of steering the band in the right direction. Just my opinion

[evanreilly]

I beleive the fiddle to be the 'first child' of Monroe's vision of his music. Monroe heard his mother playing fiddle around the house and wanted to play fiddle, but Birch had taken up the fiddle. After the fiddle, he wanted to play guitar, but Charlie had guitar taken. Bill was stuck with the mandolin.
Clearly, in Monroe's sound, the mandolin drives the band.

[Peter Hackman]

Godzilla!
I think you or someone in the group ( if they can play enough) need to fill in on the guitar if at all possible. though It's not the lead instrument many times. It does provide a canvas of sound that can't in my opinion (taste) be substituted. We've practiced in my group several times w/o guitar we do ok but it's not the kind of sound I would want to see on stage. Bill Monroe played the guitar (I think) in some of his early bands. He had his picture made with one anyway so he thought it was pretty important to his sound. Banjo on the other hand was called the 5th child of bluegrass after guitar, fiddle, mandolin, and bass. Sounds like you have twins.
This is a bit off topic, however: When Monroe started his
band in 1939 he had never
before sung solos professionally.
On the first Victor session he had two solo numbers,
Mule Skinner and Dog House Blues, and he played the
guitar on both of them.

It has been said that he played the guitar
himself to establish the beat of Bluegrass, but
to my ears his beat is different (which is why I can
identify it - Rosenberg's discography missed the guitar
on Dog House, but that has been corrected in his new book).
It's a very vigorous fast strum.
I believe he simply felt more comfortable singing with
that big sounding guitar cushioning his voice.

I would feel extremely uncomfortable without a guitar,
as either player or singer. The bass player would have to work harder, and the mando would have to abandon
or expand on the
chop, which I always conceive of as something on top
of the basic rhythm.

Strength In Numbers have no guitar on most of the
numbers of their CD, but they're not really grass,
and they don't sing.

[kudzugypsy]

i would think a good clawhammer player could handle the hole from the rhythm guitar. we have a 4-piece band, and on many numbers, the guitarist will play clawhammer and its no problem, even on fairly complex modern tunes (ie, not just cripple creek stuff) - now, playing in a BG band w/o a rhythm guitarist and with a melodic banjo player would be a tough task...but check out the CD with Michael Cleveland (fiddle) and Tom Adams (banjo)..just the 2 of them on a live CD - amazing recording and no rhythm player around.

[Zed]

My 2 cents worth is that one or both of the banjo pluckers needs to fill in on guitar. Personally, faced with the same situation in my band, where vocals are very important, i would even drop the mando and play guitar myself until other arrangements could be made. The guitar fills a certain rhythmic and sonic space that is crucial to the overall sound, and simply cannot be replaced by anything else. I consider it the "glue" that holds all the other instruments together.
2 banjos... wow... clawhammer or not.... can't imagine it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif And i honestly LIKE banjo!

[hokelore]

Barring the notion that one of the banjo guys takes up guitar (and really, I think it's a good idea for anyone to be able to double on another instrument), I would think, as a clawhead myself, that the clawhammer guy should be able to fill in. It will sound different from a guitar, but clawhammer banjo makes a great rhythm instrument.

[sailaway]

re: the 'backup guitar ' issue: well turns out one of the banjo guys is an excellent closet guitarist, but having gone down the highway of sorrow , he is living the devil's dream of being a B#$%0 PLAYER. the bass player is an excellent guitarist but not being suitably talented, cannot paly both the bass and the guitar simultaneously. and we miss the bass a lot when he does not play it. i myself, being a guitarist from the Bob Dylan era, could creditably play guitar , but due to arthritis i much prefer the chords on the mando. the fiddle player used to rock in a blues band in which he played lead guitar but he likes his fiddle... So NO ONE who can play guitar wants to. Clarence White , where are you when we need you ?? can't you inspire at least one of us to abandon our new instrument of choice to emulate you (er, not so far as the car wreck, , though ) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[John Ritchhart]

The mandolin player can drive the band if he has the biggest truck.

Depends whos playing bass.

[bsimmers]

Yes, mandolins that keep good time can drive a band. 2 banjos??? I can hardly stand that in an informal jam session, even if they're both good. But, at a show???

[Michael H Geimer]

" You never, and I mean never need two banjo players playing at the same time, time to re-train. "

LOL! That's what I was thinking last time I saw OCMS ... they really need some mandolin in that band!

Peter, Thanks for the meander into that story about Mon and those early recordings. It makes me feel a littler better about my own struggle to put guitar behind me.

I feel the same about having two guitars in a band, but am having a hard time 'driving' the band from behind the mandolin ... with a guitar I can 'direct traffic' so much more effectively!

I've been trying my hand at clawhammer too, but it still doesn't have the same full ringing chord rhythm sound of a deadnaught.

Sailaway, something tells me your group will find its feet and carry on. Keep us posted ... it's a good story.

- Benig

[sailaway]

WELLLLLLLLLL.......

the big news flash is -- we went trolling for guitar players all over the place and found a (gulp) classical / jazz guitar player retired from teaching music at a local college----who has had a secret yen for bluegrass for years because he likes to sing. he is in our age bracket, can sightread sheet music at warp speed, and is sightreading whiskey before breakfast and red haired girl type stuff like no tomorrow. i guess when you play recuerdos de alhambra enough the blue grass I IV V even ii m VI m stuff is cake.. so with some rhythm work, the new guitar guy is doing just great... i don't have to try to drive the (buick) band (to hell as some one noted ) on the (tire rims) of my mando. and we are still alive and well even with 2 banjo players. now if only some one could yodel.... ....

so now i get to play more mando and dobro, and the bass player goes back to his bass .... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mandoJeremy]

It can be done with a mando but you don't need to know that now. Not really bluegrass but listen to Strength In Numbers. There are only two songs with guitar and the rest are driven by Sam, Douglas, and Edgar. Great stuff! One banjo is way, way too much! There are no words to describe having two!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[swampstomper]

I hate to stand up for two banjos, but there was some pretty good stuff done by Larry Richardson (bluegrass) and Happy Smith (old time) back in the 1960's. Have you ever heard "Let me Fall"? It HAS to be the two contrasting styles.

[jim simpson]

Early band with 2 well know banjo players. Blurb from bio of Country Cooking:

Built around the inventive harmony banjo arrangements of Tony Trischka and Pete Wernick, "Country Cooking" introduced a flood of original instrumentals and stylistic innovations at a time when recycling the classics was still standard practice.

[EggerRidgeBoy]

I agree that two banjos isn't a good idea - I think you need at least three. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Just listening to "Fiddle Tunes for Banjo" with Tony Trischka, Bela Fleck, and Bill Keith.

OK, maybe three banjos - and nothing else - is a bit much even for me except in small doses, but I do sometimes enjoy hearing three-finger and clawhammer together (as on "The Three Pickers").

Anyway, sorry to take this farther off-topic...

[Aran]

Delighted you found a guitar player,

Here in Dublin Ireland (Playing with a banjo player) I have a friend who is classical in guitar and teaches. And yep he sight reads in a flash. Although back to the driving thing, my classical Git mate can't do the bluegrass guitar bass and strum thing! So can strum a backing of sorts (NOT driving) and can improvise on any tune you care to mention. Good luck! If this guy is really into bluegrass he will get it.

Footnote: Saw Crooked Still the other day and the majority of the tunes didn't use a guitar at all, those that did, were with the git as a melodic background. They did however use a chello and a double bass to drive the band, Okay I've just confused everyone now, I'll shut up http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[John M. Riley]

Have to have a guitar!! I have a group in which my guitar player just quit. I like mando alot better, but I had to switch to guitar. HAVE TO HAVE THE GUITAR

[TonyP]

By what everybody else has written, I'm not the only one kinda confused. When I think of "drive" I think of rhythm, so when I read the original post I had to stop and think, drive in this case was really leading the band. I was originally going to say, if the mando is "driving" the band, as a mando player, you're in trouble. I've been in a couple of bands where I couldn't figure out why every time I'd take a break things would kinda fall apart, until I heard a live recording. The guitar player and bass player both came from jazz backgrounds and there is a totally different "feel" to jazz. They don't drive the beat, they kinda lay behind the beat. So every time I'd go to take a break they would go from the "frontside" of the beat(the perceived "drive") to laying behind the beat, and it was like taking the wind out of my sails. The banjo knew all along that was happening, but didn't say anything because the guitar player was his wife. Another band no no, no more couples in a band for me either. When I brought it up, the only solution was for the banjo player to chop when I took a break. He would do that for a couple of bars then go back to his backup and the guitar and bass would slide again. I've also worked with a guy who was a classical guitar player and he struggled with trying to flatpick for years until he just went to a thumb pick and solved part of the problem. But the other part is his timing which in classical is pretty straight and he was so used to having his "brains" on paper in front of him. Soloing was a real challenge for him too. Don't get me wrong, there are drawbacks to everything and can be worked around, but it took me a while to understand what was going on. I hope everything works out for you and the band.

[farmerjones]

Take a guitar and lower the finest string to a D and hand it to one of the banjar players. git'r dun.
Use the Wisdom of Solomon. Do they want to sacrifice the band for individual gain(however temporary)? i personally wouldn't call it a drive, but a flat top is essential. More so than a bass even. Guitar is my last choice too, but i still run one if nobody else will. IMHO

[sailaway]

well the whole concept of 'drive' was -- mando on the offbeat 2 and 4 and rhythm guitar on the 1 and 3 along with bass. without strong rhythm guitar we were losing it and trying to play mando to drive the rhythm was n't working... thus the inquiry to the wise people on this list ....

hey Aran -- i wil be in Dublin Ireland some time this late fall, (en route to London Derry ) would love to play some music with you whether it be Cliffs of Doneen or Over the Rainbow or Fields Have turned Brown.

well things are progressing well with the (now) bluegrassy converted guitar classicist. this guy can take solo breaks like you don't believe and has a good solid rhythm -- does n't bother to capo any thing because he plays so easily in any key even E flat for some jazz numbers. so all and all a very interesting sound ... and by the way for all you B#$%0 haters the 2 banji together sound great , one is a a great 5 string picker and the other a solid clawhammer. then add in the bass and me in on mando or dobro or (gulp) DEERING BANJJO TUNED LIKE A GUITAR (HAHA --just for when we are short of banjos) and a what fun !! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif