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Markelberry
Dec-15-2005, 12:23am
I after several years of never taking the time out for this all important exercise I am going to make a serious effort to make it a routine. What can I expect? And is repetition all that is required to get the desired result? What do the rest of you feel it does for your playing? I just need to be reminded again.

billkilpatrick
Dec-15-2005, 4:16am
you and me ...

what i'm looking for now, as way to go forward, is a mandolin method ... book and cd. just running up and down the scales doesn't do it, in my opinion. there has to be some hurdle to jump or some sense of achievement ... like turning the page.

steve in tampa
Dec-15-2005, 6:03am
There are several types of scales to learn.

Scale etudes are actually fun

You recieve for your efforts, knowlege and eventually command of the fretboard.


There are a great number of other advantages. Just do it and you will discover them.

glauber
Dec-15-2005, 8:46am
You recieve for your efforts, knowlege and eventually command of the fretboard.
Amem! It's scale practice that's opening the fretboard to me. I'm beginning to be able to mentally "visualize" where the fingers go. I'm using the "Aonzo Family Scales" and jazzmando's "Four Finger Closed Position" now.

glauber
Dec-15-2005, 8:46am
You should also strive for clarity and equality of sound and fingers.

arbarnhart
Dec-15-2005, 9:02am
Before I can play scales daily, I have to play daily...

I probably play on 5 or 6 days, but maybe only twice is it an hour or more. A half hour is more common and like Bill, I need to stick to a method. I have a few that are good, but I keep bouncing. People I play with tell me there has been a lot of improvement, but sometimes I think they are overly polite (I do finally know some things we play often well enough to carry rhythm while someone solos). Anyway, I think scales or whatever exercise you do regularly is good as much because of the discipleine as anything else.

AlanN
Dec-15-2005, 9:02am
and keep all fingers down on the fretboard until needed - muy importante!

kudzugypsy
Dec-15-2005, 9:21am
try this when practicing scales - requires no extra effort AND it keeps you from becoming a scale robot (ie, going into auto mode)
SING internally the scale tones as you play them (la, la, la, or even better solfege) - eventually, you will begin to hear the next note, and the entire *sound* thru the all important half steps and leading tones. a little theory is nice too, this helps you understand WHY a mixolydian sounds good against a dom7, and countless other benefits.
- dont always start on the same note (root for example) - you will end up sounding like you are playing a scale and not a free melodic idea.

lots of fun with scales if you are of the curious mind - most people get bored with them because straight up - they are boring.

if you can read BASIC music notation - the book i'd recommend is Leopold Auer's Violin Method Bk #3. (its the green one, you can find it at most violin shops) - these violin masters had this stuff figured out 200 years ago - and they will really get your act together.

swampstomper
Dec-15-2005, 9:24am
What keeps me motivated is doing different exercises each day. I have the Marshall method and I do 10 minutes of FingerBusters, then 10 minutes of Chords (alternate days) and Improvisation (the other days)... then I go into my regular practice. The key is to cycle through the exercises. Do two or three in the 10 minutes, concentrating on getting them right... but don't worry if they're not perfect the first few (!!) times. Then I go on to the next exercises the next day. It takes me about three weeks to get through all the FingerBusters, then I start again. It also motivates when you hear your progress the 2nd (3rd, 4th...) cycle around.

It also helps to have some simpler exercises to keep the motivation up -- when the pinky is screaming at you to PLEASE STOP!! play a chorus of Ragtime Annie or something to loosen things up...

but whatever you do KEEP PRACTISING!!

makoto
Dec-16-2005, 9:18am
I use a set of two-octave scales that I got from Evan Marshall this summer. I start using quarter beats, one beat per note, up and back, then two eights per note, the 4/16's per note, then play the scale using tremolo. Then I play the scale in tremolo going to quarters, then tremolo going to 16's, then tremolo with a dotted rhythm going to 16's. It is hard to describe the exercise in words, and it is not as complicated as it sounds. It takes me about 10 minutes to complete this exercise, and I do this after a warm up of right and left hand exercises.
Also, I play in one key for a week, then play the relative minor the next week and do that in all the keys. Then I play the harmonized scale. This sounds like a lot but I do it as a warm-up before practicing songs and repertory and it only takes me 20 minutes. My friends say that I am getting better so I guess it is working.

Dfyngravity
Dec-16-2005, 10:17am
In Chris Thile's DVD he provides a book with scales that he uses. I think he said he got them from an old violin book or something like that. Anyway, they start down in 1st position and go all the way to the 15-19th frets depending on the key. I think someone posted them at mandozine, just search Thile and you'll find them. He also has arpeggios that do the same thing, these are great exercises and you will definitely learn the fingerboard by doing them.

luckylarue
Dec-16-2005, 11:34am
I'll second the recommendation for Thile's scales and shifting out the first position all the way up the neck. Another scale practice that has been most helpful is Niles Hokkanen's method of playing patterns within each scale. Begining with each note a a scale, play a pattern up then down - this helps put the scale into a context of a melody - not just single notes. I'll play these using different picking patterns, as well: all dn-strokes, all up-strokes, up-dn up-dn, etc.

feniansons
Dec-17-2005, 6:52pm
I may be an idiot but what do you mean keep fingers down on the fretboard... I play the note and lift the finger and move the next finger to the next appropriate note..I must be way off/

Dfyngravity
Dec-17-2005, 7:15pm
No, keep your fingers down!!! You will regret it later if you don't learn it know. Leanr it by playing scales, play a G scale and don't pull any fingers off until you are moving to the next string.

Reason why: say you are playing on the D string the notes e then g and then back to e. If you keep your fingers down you are saving lots of time by keeping your 1st finger on the e while you are playing the g. Otherwise you have to fret the e, play it, fret the g, lift your finger off the e, then play the g, and then again refret the e and play it. Rather than fret the e, play it, fret the g, play it and then just play the e.

Along with saving time and being more efficient, your tone will greatly improve along with the over all sound. In the long run, it is just a must for playing fast and clean.

Ken Sager
Dec-17-2005, 7:34pm
You'll notice this only works for ascending scales. You'll need to lift your third finger off the G to fret the E on a D string. When you do lift your finger, lift it less than 1/4 inch off the strings and leave it over the note just played. Make that part of your focus, too.

Speed is a byproduct of good practice, btw.

Love to all,
Ken

Peter Hackman
Dec-18-2005, 8:25am
No, keep your fingers down!!! You will regret it later if you don't learn it know. Leanr it by playing scales, play a G scale and don't pull any fingers off until you are moving to the next string.

Reason why: say you are playing on the D string the notes e then g and then back to e. If you keep your fingers down you are saving lots of time by keeping your 1st finger on the e while you are playing the g. Otherwise you have to fret the e, play it, fret the g, lift your finger off the e, then play the g, and then again refret the e and play it. Rather than fret the e, play it, fret the g, play it and then just play the e.

Along with saving time and being more efficient, your tone will greatly improve along with the over all sound. In the long run, it is just a must for playing fast and clean.
There was a thread on this topic a while back.
Unfortunately I went home and checked - introspection
can be very deceptive.

When playing moderately fast to
fast I don't quite know what I'm doing! When I stop
to look, my first finger goes wandering.
But then, why stop and look, that's not the way I play.

What I do know
is, if I fret a note and play a phrase
up and the string, that then returns the
same note, (e.g. f-g-a-f on the 3rd string)
I will certainly keep my first finger in place
as it has nowhere else to go.

But if the phrase continues to the next higher string
my first finger is already on its way there
(but only that finger) when I reach
the third or fourth note of the ascending scale - which
strikes me as at least as economic as keeping it fixed.
Could have to do with my hands being small; I don't like
to stretch (therefore I move my hand quite a bit,
although not as much as on the guitar).

I suppose every golden rule has golden exceptions.
But, by all means, follow the rules first, break them
when you've gained confidence.

John Flynn
Dec-18-2005, 8:55am
I hear this "keep your fingers down" thing all the time and then when I see pros start playing fast, I see fingers flying. Also, I like the hammer-on effect I get by popping my fingers back down as much as possible. There are tunes where keeping the fingers down is the right idea. I just hate to see people getting dogmatic about technique. It's whatever works.

As to playing scales, all tunes are based on scales. If you can see the scale in a tune, any tune is more interesting practice than some "etude." If you want to take a "flagellant" approach to playing, suit yourselves. I prefer to enjoy playing, all the time. BTW, my favorite mandolin player and recording artist, Curtis Buckhannon, told me he never practiced scales or exercises. He has a couple of MP3s here on the Cafe'.

John Flynn
Dec-18-2005, 10:14am
Another perspective on this from someone I respect, John McGann. It says better what I was trying to say in my post. This was posted on the Cafe' on Oct. 13, 2005:


A great classical guitarist once told me "If you want to play scales and arpeggios, play Bach- it's all the scales and arpeggios you could want, and the bonus is you are playing real music!"

Many people practice scales religiously...and I think it's a good idea to know your scales and positions, but as a means to an end. In other words-if you want to be a jazz improviser, you have to practice improvising, which means you need to know the vocabulary of the music, and it ain't scales. Same thing for any traditional music, be it Irish or bluegrass or whatever- the point Grier makes is that if you want to play Music, you have to practice Music.

Most people would be better off sitting with a metronome and playing their repertoire SLOWLY and not BSing...getting every note fat, sweet and in time. Now THAT'S music! IMHO YMMV

fiddle5
Dec-18-2005, 10:25am
Scales can be overated. If you're going to play scales, just play the keys that you need on an everyday basis, along with the pentatonics and arpeggios. The result will be good grasp of the fingerboard, along with a good sense of key changes in your ear. Scales are the best way to get a sound in your head for improvising, but some are simply not useful. Stick to the keys that are practicle.


mike

cgwilsonjr
Dec-18-2005, 12:26pm
Scales are fantastic. If you thoroughly know your major and minor scales is the five or six keys you play in you will be a more advanced player. I'm no pro but any tune I can whistle or hear in my head I can play on the mando because I'm well-grounded in the scales.

gnelson651
Dec-18-2005, 12:37pm
If you thoroughly know your major and minor scales is the five or six keys you play in you will be a more advanced player.

Interesting aspect to the major/minor keys that I learned recently is knowing the relative minor to a major key scale (as noted in the Circle of 5ths).

For example, the relative minor to G is Em so the scale of Em is the same pattern as G. You just start at the root of E but play the G scale. Now you just played the Em scale without having to memorize that scale, You already know it in G.

If you don't know the Circle if 5ths, I just remember that the minor is the 6th note up the major scale or the 2nd note down the major scale ( I hope I said that right?)

PhilGE
Dec-18-2005, 1:20pm
Check out John McGann's left hand technique tips. (http://www.johnmcgann.com/techtips.html#Left)

Good, solid advice from a pro and a pro who teaches well.

Ken Sager
Dec-18-2005, 2:36pm
Scales can be overated. If you're going to play scales, just play the keys that you need on an everyday basis, along with the pentatonics and arpeggios. The result will be good grasp of the fingerboard, along with a good sense of key changes in your ear. Scales are the best way to get a sound in your head for improvising, but some are simply not useful. Stick to the keys that are practicle.


mike
This is true, but only playing scales in keys you expect to play can leave you short handed when you get surprised by a new key. Practice scales with an intention of understanding and feeling the relationships of notes, the shapes of scales, and intervals within any given scale. This type of knowledge is more transferrable to any key than simply knowing a few "everyday" keys.

fiddle5
Dec-18-2005, 3:28pm
]
This is true, but only playing scales in keys you expect to play can leave you short handed when you get surprised by a new key. Practice scales with an intention of understanding and feeling the relationships of notes, the shapes of scales, and intervals within any given scale. This type of knowledge is more transferrable to any key than simply knowing a few "everyday" keys.
Sure Ken, but if you properly understand the ones that you do normally play, adding one or two more sharps (or flats)is not rocket science. And further,If you can understand the relationships of the keys , you can understand the entire Circle of Fifths. A scale is simply a reference point, all the other scales are relative to it.

My point is: Learn well, the ones that you do play...everything else will follow. You can blindly learn them all, but without knowing the relationship, is simply a big waste of time.


mike

drZed54
Dec-18-2005, 3:39pm
Howdy, so far I have'nt found any practice overated,(after 10 years I'm just starting to understand a little bit about theory!). Lately I've found some fun and helpful scale runs in the Jethro Burns material he released with Ken Eidson.
"you got to suffer for you learn to sign the blues"

Ken Sager
Dec-18-2005, 6:02pm
]
This is true, but only playing scales in keys you expect to play can leave you short handed when you get surprised by a new key. Practice scales with an intention of understanding and feeling the relationships of notes, the shapes of scales, and intervals within any given scale. This type of knowledge is more transferrable to any key than simply knowing a few "everyday" keys.
Sure Ken, but if you properly understand the ones that you do normally play, adding one or two more sharps (or flats)is not rocket science. And further,If you can understand the relationships of the keys , you can understand the entire Circle of Fifths. A scale is simply a reference point, all the other scales are relative to it.

My point is: Learn well, the ones that you do play...everything else will follow. You can blindly learn them all, but without knowing the relationship, is simply a big waste of time.


mike
So we're saying the same thing. Cool.

timv
Jan-11-2012, 6:27am
This thread has slept for a while, since well before I joined the site in fact and that's been a few years now. But it seems like as good a place as any to post a question or two. Like several others, I found the scale and arpeggio exercises on Chris Thile's DVD and the extra ones in the transcription booklet, and they've suited my mood for something a little bit nerdy and obsessive to work on for whatever reason. I've also gotten some violin method books recommended in other topics, which I might or might not want to work on after I've got Chris's exercises down.

It's taking me a fair amount of time to learn the fingerings and position shifts of Thile's exercises, and by "learn" I mean memorizing to the point where I don't have to look at the booklet to play them. When I've read where people mentioned working through Sevcik or Hrimaly or Flesch's books, I've wondered whether they were learning each exercise the way I think of learning a piece, or if they were playing while sight-reading them.

I read a little, well enough to work my way through something slowly even if I occasionally revert to "Every Good Boy Does Fine"; used to be better when I was younger. I'm thinking it would be a project just improving my reading to the point where I could sight-read these exercises and not mess up because I was distracted by the effort of reading. But it would also take a very long time to work through a hundred or so scale exercises if I had to memorize each one. (Just by coincidence I happened to be reading an old interview with Joni Mitchell this morning where she said, "My music teacher told me I played by ear which was a sin, you know, and that I would never be able to read these pieces because I memorized things.")

I think it's interesting that in the various discussions of practicing scales here in the Cafe forum, I haven't noticed anyone asking about them and being asked in return, "How well do you read music?" Seems like that oughta come up now and then. How big a deal is it really? Am I imagining a problem where there is none?

Trevor Thomas
Jan-11-2012, 11:25am
I think it’s sometimes handy to know about scales – if you’re doing any improvisation at all, then knowing what notes are going to be appropriate is very important.

Also, if you happen to know the tune you’re trying to learn is in A mixolydian, and you know what that is, it eliminates some of the guesswork.

I discovered that a major scale is always the same shapes, wherever you play it on the mandolin. So once you know one scale, you can play them all – it’s just a question of where you start. So I never felt the need to obsessively practice scales for their own sake.

But I think I’ve got the most mileage out of doing the thing that John McGann advises – I learnt to play tunes – I don’t have to practice D major, because playing tunes in D thousands of times means I can get from any note to any other note without much trouble.

When I didn’t know many tunes, I did spend a bit of time doing the thing that Niles Hokannen advises. – making up little exercises - doing three notes up, jumping two back going up another three till I’d got to the to, then reversing it. I just made up little symmetrical patterns like this because I thought it would be useful to train my fingers to go between any two notes within a scale in reasonable time.

With regard to reading – I can’t read and it never made any difference. Just so long as the music I wanted to play wasn’t in ‘written’ traditions. In my town there are several sessions every night of the week, and I found I was playing Irish/Scottish/American traditional tunes, pop tunes, bluegrass, country, jazz etc etc, which you can do without reading being important.

BUT – recently I’ve joined a new Mandolin Orchestra that was starting up. Not being able to read the dots is a MAJOR disadvantage in that set up, I can tell you that for nothing.

Perry
Jan-11-2012, 11:39am
If I had to choose between the two I would go for arpeggio studies over scale studies.

Someone mentioned etudes and Bach....both usually loaded with arpeggio's.

JeffD
Jan-11-2012, 11:53am
It is very often the case that I pick up the mandolin but have no real interest in any particular tune or music - I just want to play some mandolin. Thats when scales and exercises are the best. It can be just a lot of fun to run through a regimen for the feel and sound of it.

Many of the mandolin method books I have used and played with do not assume at the beginning that you can read music. They intend to teach that as you go along. By doing the first few exercises looking at the book, you are exercising not just your fingers and pick technique, but also your memory of the notes on the scale and position and string on the neck. By following those exercises carefully, and not going ahead until confident where you are, I think one would be well on their way to being able to read music.

I learned to read music from a clarinet method book, believe it or not. Its what I had. I had a mandolin fingering chart, and I just did the exercises in the clarinet book using a mandolin fingering chart, (to this day I remember having both of them open on the dining room table, a Christmas table cloth if I am not mistaken). I would do each exercise and not move on till I had it. If I got stuck I would go back and do them all over again. Yea I was an obsessive kid.

Anyway, the point is that a good beginners method book, if followed assiduously, should teach you how to read as well as how to play.

JeffD
Jan-11-2012, 11:55am
As a practical matter, when I play from an exercise book I sight read it first, but eventually it gets remembered. I don't try to memorize it, but just through repitition and coffee it tends to stay.

farmerjones
Jan-11-2012, 2:27pm
i don't read notation fast enough for it to be of value unless there's something i can't seem to figure out by how it sounds.

I think of scale familiarity like a kid sleeping with a basketball: I commited to learning (internalizing)all of the first position. In hindsight, it wasn't that much. Then branched out, to anything else i needed, to play a tune that i fancied at a given time. I think anybody will eventually get over their head if that's what they seek. All i really wanted to do is play 2 & 3 chord tunes in jam. Curiosity has taken me a touch farther, but i didn't start out wanting to do the most hardest thing first, like Jazz improv in F minor diminished. Look at how much of the world one can walk around and enjoy, instead of imediately insisting to learning how to vertically ascend with ropes, paetons and caribeanors.

JonZ
Jan-11-2012, 3:05pm
There is a diminishing return to practicing a scale every day, once you can play it with good technique at your desired speed. Practice scales only as much as necessary to maintain proficiency. Add new variations instead of flogging old ones.

In regard to Thile's scales that move up and down the fretboard--if it is difficult for you, break it into smaller chunks. Learn each shift separately, both ascending and descending. When you can play all of the shifts well, combine them into bigger chunks, until you can play the whole thing. Review the hard shifts more often than the easy shifts.

JeffD
Jan-11-2012, 5:27pm
I think there is value to scale playing beyond good technique and desired speed. There is ear training. The goal is a whole lot more than being able to play a scale on demand.

Thats why its good to put arpeggios in with the scales. So you would do a C scale and a C maj arpeggio, D scale, D maj arpeggio, etc. This way you get not only the dexterity down, but you get feeling for the function of each note in each scale, which is just as important, if not more important, than knowing what note this string on this fret plays. (For example the C is the tonic of the C scale but that same C is the fifth (dominant) in the F scale and the fourth (sub-dominant) of the G scale.)

Playing the scales, even after you are good at them, glues those sounds and relationships into your head and fingers.

I even find it useful to recite the do-re-me for each scale, in whatever key, just to attach more neurons to the experience.

There really is something to that - attach as many neurons to the experience as you can, the note you see, the sound you hear, the finger position you play, the syllable you pronounce, maybe add some dynamics and emphasis to various steps of the scale, - it all helps glue this stuff together.

One thing I like to do is take a simple familar tune. At Christmas time its fun to use Joy to the World, because its not a whole lot more than the scale itself, and its so familiar you can pick it out by ear. So I play the scale, play an arpeggio or two and play Joy tothe World in that key, change keys play the scale play the arpeggios and Joy in that key, etc. on up and across the neck.

Its fun, its productive time behind the instrument, and it really helps, and did I say its fun?

Mike Bunting
Jan-11-2012, 5:35pm
I think there is value to scale playing beyond good technique and desired speed. There is ear training. Thats why its good to put arpeggios in with the scales. So you would do a C scale and a C maj arpeggio, D scale, D maj arpeggio, etc. This way you get not only the dexterity down, but you get feeling for the function of each note in each scale, which is just as important, if not more important, than knowing what note this string on this fret plays. (For example the C is the tonic of the C scale but that same C is the fifth (dominant) in the F scale and the fourth (sub-dominant) of the G scale.)

Playing the scales, even after you are good at them, glues those sounds and relationships into your head and fingers.

I even find it useful to recite the do-re-me for each scale, in whatever key, just to attach more neurons to the experience.

There really is something to that - attach as many neurons to the experience as you can, the note you see, the sound you hear, the finger position you play, the syllable you pronounce, maybe add some dynamics and emphasis to various steps of the scale, to emphasize certain parts - it all helps glue this stuff together.
And just simple muscle training.

JonZ
Jan-12-2012, 12:23am
If you think playing the same scale, yet again, is the best use of your practice time--have at it.

JeffD
Jan-12-2012, 12:42am
At a certain point you don't need to do it as much for the fingers. But for the brain. I think there is still a benefit. The scales and arpeggios fit together in so many intricate ways there is a lot there to mine, and many an ahaa moment comes running through a familiar scale yet again, but hearing it in a new way.

timv
Jan-12-2012, 3:27am
I didn't think much of playing scales and arpeggios myself before I tried the ones on the Thile DVD. I figured that if I had any intention of taking on "Ode to a Butterfly" or "When Mandolins Dream" then it might behoove me to spend some time on the exercises he recommended first.

I still don't have a lot of enthusiasm for running through do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do-ti-la-so-fa-mi-re-do in one position, but until lately I didn't know how much more there was to them. As Trevor Thomas says above, it didn't take me long to figure out that all the notes of a given scale are in a certain position as long as I knew where the root is. But I'd never really gotten on top of knowing instantly, for example, where Bb is on the 3rd string, or what note the 9th fret on the 2nd string was, or where the 3rd degree of the Gm scale is on the E string. (I can work those out given a second or two, but often that's too slow.) Scales that change positions force me to work on that.

It was also the first I'd seen of adding a couple of extra notes to a scale to make it 12 or 24 notes long so that it can be played fluidly as full measures in either 3/4 or 4/4 time. (I read somewhere that Galamian came up with this.) That makes it interesting to play the notes as phrases and try to make it sound musical; and hearing it as one time signature vs. another does really make a difference. The melodic minor scales (different notes on the way up and the way down) also made me pay attention and gave my ears something new to hear.

I'm not saying everyone needs to do this, just that it's working for me right now. I picked this topic to post in because the premise seemed to be "if you play scales daily..." but there seems to be a black hole-like tendency for any topic like this to get pulled toward whether playing scales is good or bad. And it's an unfortunate axiom of the Internet that every question like that must have exactly one right answer for all people in all places and times. I'd rather stay away from that trap. Besides being meaningless, it's been done to death. I asked for advice from others who have experience with them, and I'm happy to say why I'm liking them. But if you don't want to, that's cool too.

timv
Jan-12-2012, 3:53am
Anyway, the point is that a good beginners method book, if followed assiduously, should teach you how to read as well as how to play.
Yeah, but that's what I was worried about when I said that it seemed like it might be a project. Already I've gone from:

learn Thile tunes -> play Thile tunes -> impress chicks

to:

learn scales and arpeggios -> learn Thile tunes -> play Thile tunes -> impress chicks

and now we're talking about:

learn to sight-read -> learn scales and arpeggios -> learn Thile tunes -> play Thile tunes -> impress chicks

It's starts getting easy to lose sight of the ultimate objective when it's pushed back that far. :)

Anyhow, a beginner's book seems like it might be kinda punitive and remedial, but I've got piles of books full of tunes to practice from. I might give that a shot. It's looking like being able to sight-read at speed would be a big help in working through those violin scale books, maybe even an out-and-out necessity.

Mike Bunting
Jan-12-2012, 5:09am
Of course, if you want to get serious there is always Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic patterns.

http://www.amazon.com/Thesaurus-Scales-Melodic-Patterns-Text/dp/082561449X/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1326362598&sr=1-1-catcorr

timv
Jan-12-2012, 5:50am
Of course, if you want to get serious there is always Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic patterns.

http://www.amazon.com/Thesaurus-Scales-Melodic-Patterns-Text/dp/082561449X/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1326362598&sr=1-1-catcorr
Interesting, but I'd have to have exhausted a lot of the more mundane books before I'd dare to go there. It looks like a fine tool for theorists and composers, but not one with exercises designed for four-string instruments tuned in fifths. And that'd likely to be the least of my troubles with it.

And where did you get the idea that I was serious? :)

Perry
Jan-12-2012, 8:01am
Of course, if you want to get serious there is always Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic patterns.

http://www.amazon.com/Thesaurus-Scales-Melodic-Patterns-Text/dp/082561449X/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1326362598&sr=1-1-catcorr

Or play outside the scales...this is a very unusual book...each exercise is chock full of accidentals:

Thesaurus of Intervallic Melodies

Inside Improvisation, Vol. 5 (230 pages)

"Practicing out of this book by just reading the melodies has changed and expanded my playing," says Jerry Bergonzi. He offers a number of suggested uses and applications for this intervallic system including ear training, composition, improvisation, improving technical facility, intonation, sight reading, breaking finger habits, and pitch retention.


"In his Thesaurus of Intervallic Melodies, Jerry has created a wonderful and most unusual tool which will expand any musicians musical endeavors. These challenging exercises are very enjoyable to play and can be absorbed in a relaxed and natural manner. The melodies take the player's ears and fingers into refreshingly unfamiliar territories. Very inspirational... highly recommended for students and professionals alike." Mike Brecker

Speaking of Bach I have found the top staff of the Inventions easier to hack through then the Solo Partita's. Invention #13 for example is ripe with great A minor stuff. All free on internet...here's #13

http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/BachJS/BWV784/bach-invention-13/bach-invention-13-a4.pdf

JonZ
Jan-12-2012, 10:35am
Did someone say practicing scales is bad?

Perry
Jan-12-2012, 11:17am
Did someone say practicing scales is bad?

A few have said that yes.....but here's another question:

If playing scales as music is considered bad form (and I think most would agree it is) then does practicing running scales only reinforce a bad habit?

I suppose that is why it's so important to practice rhythmic and melodic variations (thirds, fourths, arpeggios) on scales.

JeffD
Jan-12-2012, 12:32pm
If playing scales as music is considered bad form (and I think most would agree it is) then does practicing running scales only reinforce a bad habit?

Playing exercises of any kind, as music, is bad form.

Following this logic, the only thing one should practice is the tune or performance coming up. Practice only what your going to play. Practice becomes limited to rehursal.

Gotta do both.


I suppose that is why it's so important to practice rhythmic and melodic variations (thirds, fourths, arpeggios) on scales.

It is important to practice rhythmic and melodic variations, but not to prevent scales from creeping into your breaks. Its to get good at different rhythms and hear and play and know how to find various melodic elements.

Truth is you probably have to practice everything. A very useful and easy to remember subset of everything it would be good to practice, is scales and arpeggios.

timv
Jan-12-2012, 12:33pm
Did someone say practicing scales is bad?
Yeah, pointless or a poor use of time if not downright harmful.

So I asked what I thought was a reasonable--if maybe a bit long-winded--question whether others memorized or read these exercises, and if I might need to upgrade my reading skills before taking on one of the violin books like Sevcik or Flesch that others have posted about. And there are a couple of responses that address those questions, plus a dozen or so about why scales are good, bad, useless, or better or worse than some other kind of practice.

Ham sandwich (http://www.google.com/search?q=site:mandolincafe.com+ham+sandwich)... Maybe it's unavoidable.

Anyway, party on. Do what you like. If we don't do the same thing, that doesn't mean one of us is wrong.

mandocrucian
Jan-12-2012, 1:02pm
Too many folks have a limited idea of what practicing scales is all about, and what it does for your thinking processes as well as your manual dexterity.

Practicing scales includes playing various "patterns", which can also include arpeggios (i.e. triads on each successive scale degree, restricted to the scale notes of the key)

Practing scales can also mean "patternizing" any one or two-bar phrase, pulled from fiddle tunes or wherever. The following use the opening licks from a couple of fiddle tunes, but you could use the last phrase, or one from the middle...etc. Ascend the scale with the pattern; but also desend with the lick transposed to each scalar pitch degree

Key of A; 1-bar phrase from "Sally Goodin" patternized:
=================|================================ =
==0=2=4=0=2=4=0==|=2=4=5=2=4=5=2==|=4=5=7=4=5=7=4= =|=============
================================================== =====
================================================== =====

Key of D: phrase from "Arkansas Traveller"
====2=0===========|
==5=====5=2===2===|
==================
==================

Key of D; phrase above, slightly embellished with a couple more notes, patternized:
===2=0==========|================================= ==============
=5======2=4=5=2=|=4=7=5=4=0=2=4=0=|=2=4=5=2===0=2= ==|=0=2=4=0=====0===|
================|================|==========5===== 5=|=========4=5===4=|
================================================== =================

I think it's a real good idea to then take those same patternized lick exercises, and then do them in parallel minor ("Sally Goodin" phrase in A natural minor and A harmonic minor, "Arkansas Traveller" phrase in D natural minor and D harmonic minor) This will allow your brain, ear and fingers to more easily start to wobble back and for between major and minor, and recycle all your major stuff into minor and vice versa.

Niles Hokkanen

to answer the post below:
Major > parallel minor (both have the same root note)
A Major > A natural minor (or A harmonic minor)


Major > relative minor (both use the same key signature..... number of #s or b's)
eg. A major > F# minor
or G major > E minor

timv
Jan-12-2012, 1:43pm
Nice stuff, Niles! Thanks for that. Not sure what you mean by "parallel minor" though. A natural minor and A harmonic minor at the same time?

Brent Hutto
Jan-12-2012, 4:25pm
A minor is the "parallel minor" to A major. This is true whether it is "A natural minor" or "A harmonic minor". Either way it is parallel to A major.

A minor is the "relative minor" to C major, conversely.

pickloser
Jan-12-2012, 6:39pm
Thanks, Niles

JonZ
Jan-12-2012, 10:03pm
So I asked what I thought was a reasonable--if maybe a bit long-winded--question whether others memorized or read these exercises, and if I might need to upgrade my reading skills before taking on one of the violin books like Sevcik or Flesch that others have posted about. And there are a couple of responses that address those questions, plus a dozen or so about why scales are good, bad, useless, or better or worse than some other kind of practice.

Ham sandwich (http://www.google.com/search?q=site:mandolincafe.com+ham+sandwich)... Maybe it's unavoidable.

Anyway, party on. Do what you like. If we don't do the same thing, that doesn't mean one of us is wrong.

I took a stab at Flesch and found it pretty difficult to read, plus the recommended fingerings are not necessarily the ones you would chose for mandolin. So, yes, I think being a good reader is a prerequisite.

I decided to work though "The Complete Mandolinist" instead.

I have been looking at a lot of the violin material that my son is working on lately, and though the instruments are tuned the same, the finger board is often approached very differently. There appears to be much less use of moveable forms (FFcP and the like) in violin.

JeffD
Jan-13-2012, 12:40am
I have been looking at a lot of the violin material that my son is working on lately, and though the instruments are tuned the same, the finger board is often approached very differently. There appears to be much less use of moveable forms (FFcP and the like) in violin.

Yea moveable forms don't seem to be taught until much later. And the fiddlers I know don't go up the neck unless its necessary, (up the e string or sometimes up the a string a and e string for a double stop. Never catch them going up on the d string for anything.) Violinists seem to be more fearless in this regard, but I surprise even them when I do a B part in third position only because the harmony is better.

The reason, I figure, is frets. Moving up the neck without frets requires real good intonation, and so its much harder on fiddle. My fiddle teacher says that one advantage of first position is that there are so many open string notes to keep your pitch.

But it is a reason our little instrument is indeed much more than just a picked fiddle.

JonZ
Jan-13-2012, 12:47pm
Also worth noting is that Flesch does not recommend practicing any one of his patterns daily, but rotating through.

Another good way to work on scales, without working on scales, is to play tunes in different positions and keys. Often scale exercises start on root and end on root, while tunes often put the root in the middle of the action.

Mark Robertson-Tessi
Jan-13-2012, 1:28pm
I would add a small but useful tweak when practicing generic scales, arpeggios, and the like: make sure to play the exercises starting on upstrokes as well as down strokes. For example, the most common way to play a G scale starting from the open is to start with a downstroke, and alternate pick from there as you move up the notes. I suggest also starting on an upstroke and alternating from there.

If the rhythmic aspect of it gives you pause, then instead of starting with an upstroke, simply play the first note of any exercise twice, starting with a down stroke. This will put the rest of the exercise on the opposite strokes than the usual. I.e., G G A B C D E etc.

Cheers
MRT

Pete Counter
Jan-13-2012, 5:16pm
Matt raum has two books called "Mandolin Technique Studies" that I find much more usefull. All of the exercises are based on scales and arpeggios but as niles called it, he "patternizes" them into musical studies instead of just dry scales and he thows in tunes arranged to demonstrate how its used. the second book is mainly musical studies and the last section in vol 2 is taken from a book of violin studies. I dont work them everyday like I should but I believe they are much more usefull than just dry scale practice.

timv
Jan-14-2012, 9:09am
I took a stab at Flesch and found it pretty difficult to read, plus the recommended fingerings are not necessarily the ones you would chose for mandolin. So, yes, I think being a good reader is a prerequisite.
Thanks Jon. That's really what I'm looking for, things to work on that aren't played the way I would to tend choose to. I get the impression that Thile was influenced quite a bit by time he spent working on violin pieces that traveled around the fingerboard. I'm a lot more comfortable playing around fixed patterns myself but I'm thinking that some exposure to that other thing might do me good.


Also worth noting is that Flesch does not recommend practicing any one of his patterns daily
Noted. I expect to play them weakly at best.

JonZ
Jan-14-2012, 9:56am
You're welcome.

I think Chris Thile's patterns come from a different violin book. The "thing" about them being that they are 24 notes long, which allows them to be played in a continuous loop in 2/2, 3/4, or 4/4. I am sure someone on the site knows the author's name.

I believe that Mike Marshall, who also plays violin, practiced Flesch.

mbruno
Jun-30-2012, 1:32pm
I stand by my routine which is a revolving practice schedule - I never play this in the same order twice in a row. This is written for Major scales, but I do the same with Minor keys, modes, and etc

+ Pick a scale (i.e. G major) and play it in every mode (i.e. start on G, A, B, C, D, E, F#)
+ Play the major scale in 3rds (i.e. G A B G, A B C A) - this mimics a lot of fiddle tunes which is helpful
+ Play 5 note scale (i.e. G A B C D, A B C D E, B C D E F# etc)
+ Play appreggio's of every chord in that scale (i.e. G B D, A C E, B D F#, etc)
+ Play appeggios's in 5ths (i.e. G D, A E, C G etc)
+ same in 4ths (i.e. G C, A D etc)
+ Play double stops on each course (i.e. first double stops on the E & A strings, next on the A & D, next on the D & G)
+ Play the major Pentatonic of that scale
+ Play the minor Pentatonic of that scale
+ Pick 3 fiddle tunes in that key

SincereCorgi
Jun-30-2012, 3:11pm
I have also been curious about which violin book Thile is talking about in his video. Clearly, knowing what that book is would be the secret to playing exactly like him.

timv
Jul-04-2012, 12:45pm
Clearly, knowing what that book is would be the secret to playing exactly like him.

I believe you left out the sarcasm tag there. :)

Though if we followed mbruno's routine we'd be well on our way!

It would be fun to know, but at this point I wonder if his scales are loosely based on violin methods without being note-for-note from any one book. Someone likely would have said which one by now if they were. I've read that the pattern for playing a three-octave scale up and down in 48 notes was Galamian's innovation, but maybe those particular scales were passed down to him from a teacher, ("These are from a book of violin scales" without saying which one) and from the teacher's teacher before that. Or something...

Mike Romkey
Jul-12-2012, 7:14pm
I'm intriqued, and more than overwhelmlmed, mbruno. Could you please post a video of your routine in G, up to the fiddle tunes?

I work some out of Flesh. Just btw, when I was studying violin my teacher was selective about what she had me work on. Some of the arpeggios were not especially useful. And some of the fingering are more about getting up the neck than what you would use in playing a piece.