View Full Version : Hey you F9 lovers......

Mar-23-2004, 12:51pm
I can't believe the reserve was met this low.......might be worth watching if your in the market.

New F9 on Ebay (http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3713270274&category=10179&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBBI%3AIT&rd=1)

Coy Wylie
Mar-23-2004, 1:19pm
no telling what the reserve is though... a used one with a bald neck went for $1500 a few weeks ago.

Mar-23-2004, 1:23pm
Willard, the reserve is met........it's at $1400

Mar-23-2004, 3:34pm
If people could have held off till the end there's no telling hown low this one could have gone for. Oh well,

Mar-23-2004, 4:37pm
Oh good grief.......I'm sorry guys, I don't buy that wait until the end crap. Mainly because I'm an Auctioneer by trade. Try sneaking in a bid like that at a live auction & the Auctioneer won't see you.......on purpose! It's still a good buy (if you want one) & don't think for a minute that thing would sell for less by waiting until the end to bid. Bid to the level your comfortable bidding to.....or someone else will. The sooner you do the sooner the tire kickers drop out.

John Flynn
Mar-23-2004, 4:44pm
So much for Gibbies holding thier value! I pity the guys that paid full price for F9s.

Mar-23-2004, 5:01pm
Mando Johnny, I don't think this has anything to do with what an F9 is worth on the used market. This is just a guy (or gal) that has a very low reserve set for this particular instrument. This F9 hasn't been on eBay for even 24 hours of the 168 hours it's listed for and it's already reached $1400.00. Trying to imply that within the first few hours an F9 reached its reserve of < $1400.00 and trying to somehow relate this to devaluing the F9 or to how Gibson instruments holds their value is a ridiculous statement. I think you'll see this F9 bring market value and most of the Gibson's I've seen retain their value better than most.

Jim Watts

Mar-23-2004, 5:18pm
This looks like Old Wave #240 a few weeks back, started out low and then it started to grow...finished around $1950. A solid if slightly low price.

Mar-23-2004, 6:09pm
Hmmmmm, if you are buying mandolins just for their future value, I pity you. I personally bought mine because I like the looks of it and the sound that it had (which has gotten so much better to boot).

I'm not trying to rip anyone, but if you like the F-9, that is a good buy.

Dale, I'm with you in the auction thing. (even though we agree to disagree about the 9). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Coy Wylie
Mar-23-2004, 6:37pm
Predictions? How high will it go? When I am really interested in a high priced auction, I try to wait until the end. I just missed that Old Wave a few weeks back... just above my top bid. But I did snag an upgraded Weber Bitterroot last night. It will be here Friday, can't wait!

Mar-23-2004, 8:54pm
I think it will go between $1850.00 to $1950.00. Maybe even $2000.00

Mar-23-2004, 9:19pm
hmm, should i guess high and then bid it up? just a joke guys, I have one. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Mar-23-2004, 11:44pm
Hmmmmm, if you are buying mandolins just for their future value, I pity you. #

Mar-23-2004, 11:59pm
You just want an Apitius because that is what Adam played and he didn't start his tone on that! #I recall a video of Adam playing, with his then wife Tammy Steffey, playing a mando with no name on it and that was one of the best sounding mandolins. #Remember that it is about your right hand and not so much the mando. Plus, notice you can still buy that Apitius that is so off colored from the front sunburst to the rear! #Pictures aren't that off! #Just buy it and you WILL play better! #Just like the little train that could.

Mar-24-2004, 12:01am
I think I can!

Mar-24-2004, 12:09am
Shall I dare think that I can?

Mar-24-2004, 4:05am
MJ, I was making a play on the term "I pity you" - "Apitius". OK, so maybe not that funny. Now that that's settled, what the heck are YOU smoking? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Mar-24-2004, 7:55am
Perhaps you would prefer a celebrity owned mando as an investment. A Silver Angel from the "pre symmetrical" era.......ugh!

Wayne Benson's SA "pre symmetrical" (http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3712166639&category=10179)

Scotti Adams
Mar-24-2004, 8:08am
..I agree Jeremy..its all in the right hand..although the better the mando the better tone that right hand will produce....now take a deep breath. 1,2,3...exhale...you better now...?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Mar-24-2004, 10:43am
Oh I didn't take offense, wasn't smoking anything, and am quite better now that it is a new morning to enjoy mando all over again. I guess it is hard to tell what I am thinking by my typing!

Mar-24-2004, 11:37am
I bought the one that was on ebay with the fininish removed from the neck for $1450 and sold it to a friend for what I paid 'cause he's done lots of favours for me. It is a great sounding mandolin-IMHO-a real buy.

Mar-24-2004, 11:46am
Ah........there you are Mike!.............Uhahahahaha (as I peer through the crosshairs.)

Coy Wylie
Mar-24-2004, 11:47am
Bowzette, did you buy after the auction was over? From a guy in NY? If so you just beat me to it. How did it sound anyway?

Mar-24-2004, 1:58pm
Hey Dale, your link isn't linking. I'd like to see what the "ugh" was all about.

Mar-24-2004, 3:14pm
Willard, the guy lives in N.Y. I found another instrument he had on ebay and emailed him through ebay if he still wanted to sell the mandolin and offered $50 less than his ebay listing starting price. The neck plays great without the finish on it, especially in hot humid south east texas. The sound has lots of bass, dark, woody and the chop is great. But you need the strings a bit high to get that volume, tone and bark. I don't know if that is typical of Gibsons or not. My Phoenix has lots of tone and volume with a low action. I was very impressed with the sound of the F-9 and my buddy loves it. It has that "Gibson sound". BTW the guy "Fred" is starting a mandolin strap business so he may get active here. Nice guy.

Mar-24-2004, 3:32pm
Dale, i'm shocked that you lowered your standards to actually bid on a F-9!

Mar-26-2004, 10:37am
Well, I have to stay current on market values.....or in this case "downtrends"....... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Mar-26-2004, 12:18pm
Hey Dale, it is an american made product though

Mar-26-2004, 12:35pm
Ron, Yep & kudos to everyone buying American! BTW I've noticed some price declines here of late in more than just Gibson 9's. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Mar-26-2004, 1:13pm
Yeah Dale, I've noticed a little bit too. But that Loar at Elderly's is declining. (I'm trying to figure out how 3 people can live in a loar and it's case) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Mar-26-2004, 1:21pm
Prices have been "softer" for a while - note the current items for sale on eBay, some nice stuff that has been for sale with no takers. Not that this presages a general collapse in the mandolin market!

(Note to self: ditch all stock in ImClone and Dudenbostel & Co., Inc. ASAP).

Mar-26-2004, 3:31pm
Better to buy low or high? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Mar-26-2004, 7:56pm
Gentlemen...it is not just mandolins that are dropping -- everything is. Contrary to what the present political administration would have us believe, I think I smell a recession of seismic order (or might that be odor -- can an odor be seismic?) I collect a very odd & particular thing (none of your damn business, don't ask) and I am noticing that all prices on ebay are having to drop to sell... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Mar-27-2004, 3:14am
I agree with Elen...I just paid $1.95 for REGULAR at "South Of The Border" on the NC/SC line...and this cult icon of Highway Americana, (i.e. tourist trap) if you will, was pretty, well, un-busy...

(I can see the headlines..."Mando player projects eminent recession due to low attendance at 'South Of The Border'...closing of casinos there may also have effects".)

Yeah, stuff on Ebay seems to be on a downward slope...

Mar-27-2004, 12:02pm
I'm not sure e-bay is an indication of anything in relationship to our economy. I cannot speak for anyplace else, but our retail stores continue to do record business and most of it is in high end instruments. The growth has been phenomenal and shows not sign of slowing down. I cannot see any signs of a decline in the economy in any area. Industry continues to grow and so does housing and auto sales. The unemployment rate has been declining for several months and is below what is considered "full employment". I realize for the man out of work that he is in a serious depression, but for most of America things look pretty good.

We are seeing record sales in our products (banjos, mandolins, dobros) also. No decline there. Our guitar divisions are seeing the same thing. Even our drum production is heading up. While there may be small pockets that have problems, the nation as a whole is in pretty good shape. I guarantee it is far better than it was in the late seventies and early eighties. That was a disaster! Anyway, I'm just glad things are as good as they are and seem to be improving.

Mar-27-2004, 1:12pm
Sorry Joe.......I'm not buying that. "Some" companies shove their "required" purchases down their Dealers throats & shout "aint things great!"........let's hear from some of the dealers. I still maintain that "mando" sales are marginally off & have been for a while.

I personally consider Ebay a pretty fair barometer of what's hot & what's not. Like it or not, the internet is changing the way America does business.......(spoken like some sort of expert, I don't even have a website.....) #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Ted Eschliman
Mar-27-2004, 1:45pm
Sorry, Dale. Not taking the bait on this one...
(Although I do agree with your take on Ebay, especially if you're in the market for a nice pair of size 4-1/2 Narrow pink pumps...)

Mar-27-2004, 1:46pm
I think Dale is right on here. When I have a used product that I consider selling, or if I find something that I am instersted in buying, I always look at ebay for an "in the ballpark" price. I really think ebay is a great example of economics 101, supply and demand and what the product will bring monetarily on the open market.

Jim Watts

Mar-27-2004, 3:20pm
Well said JimW..."Ebay: Economics 101". The workings of supply and demand was also readily seen on Ebay, in the case of the Grisman pick thing...they were discontinued for a good while, prices soared...for an item that cost pennies to make. Seems like I remember some individuals getting almost what a real shell pick would bring. Then, suddenly, they were back on the market, like on Greg Boyd's page and the snowball melted...

Charlie Derrington
Mar-27-2004, 3:38pm
Well, I'm going to sound off on this one.

The only evidence I have on how good mandolin sales are, is the relationship of the market to how many we build and sell. My mandolin building staff is maxed and we still have backorders at the end of the month. We are at (at least in my limited tenure) at an all time high in the numbers of mandolins we are building. I have also spoken with other builders and they also are selling more than they can build.

I don't see any evidence of a slow down. I'm not saying it won't happen, just that it's not happening right now.


Mar-27-2004, 5:33pm
According to "real" economic measures, the economy is growing faster than it has in the last 20 years, "thanks to" or "despite" the "current administration", whichever version you prefer. #Our CYCLICAL free market economy is more powerful than any person in political office, and the economic trends and forces that move the economy are not able to make instant changes. #It takes time (like several months to a couple years) for the full results to show. #When I was in college 15-20 years ago, we were taught in Economics class that the job market was considered to be at "full employment" when the unemployment rate dropped to 6%. #That was as good as anyone could conceive it to be just a few years ago. #We are now at about 5.4% unemployment and the world is about to come to an end because "nobody has a job". #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

There seems to be another entreprenurial luthier building great-looking mandolins every couple of weeks, and prices for new ones seem to be holding up pretty well. #The used market prices have likely dropped some, in part, because people like me are finally realizing that it just doesn't make sense to pay very close to new prices for a used instrument just because it's more convenient to click the Bid button on eBay than to go out and physically search for the dream mando.

Which brings me back down off my soapbox to my original reason for looking at this thread....did somebody say something about an F9? #Sweet!

(Sorry, it just kills me how little reality comes into play with peoples' opinions on the economy, etc. The "Crisis Creators", formerly known as reporters, have an unfortunately large influence.)

Mar-29-2004, 12:15pm
I think Ebay has kind of evened the playing field. Back in the day I bought my first guitar (an electric Gibson). I payed way too much from my "friendly neighborhood" Abilene store. Found out years later others in bigger cities were selling the same guitar for five hundred less than I paid. Nowadays, you can walk into a store and they can tell you some lame price (way over 1500 hundred for a Gibson A9 at some stores) and you can tell them to take a walk, come camp on the cafe classifieds for a couple weeks and walk away with one for 850. As a buyer I'm glad there's ebay and the classifieds. Builders like Gibson (not bad mouthing Gibsons) can ask what they want on the front end for their mandos. The aftermarket of people dealing to each other speaks for what people are really willing to spend on things. Plus it's hard as anything to find a descent mando shop in my neck of the woods. Before internet, people asked all kinds of crazy prices. I might not be able to play before I pay, but I'm now 10 times more educated about who has consistent quality and what going rates are.

Mar-29-2004, 8:10pm
Sooooo boys & girls, after a trip across Ebay & a thread dedicated to it here on the Cafe. That new F9 brought $1725......so much for some folks economics I guess. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Mar-30-2004, 6:44am
The bid history on that looked strange, one person jumped the bid $455 after the reserve was met.

Mar-30-2004, 9:37am
OK then, we can watch this one as the high bidder on the first is on top of this one to. Odds are he won't be back so we can see what this one brings. #

Another F9 Auction (http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3714881923&category=10179)

Mar-30-2004, 11:08am
Okay, that latest one is a 2002 only played once!! I drive through his community everyday on my way to work so I can save the $27 by picking it up. How can I resist...

Mar-30-2004, 11:16am
I hate to break it to Gibson -- but out here on the West Coast, particularly the SF Bay Area, there is a recession going on. #All the signs are there: stores closing right and left, people leaving because they can't make their mortgages, people being evicted (don't forget, I am a lawyer and a real estate broker who does a lot of evictions) for non-payment of rent, car repossessions at an all-time high, high-end luxury goods gathering dust on shelves, people not hiring house cleaners because they can no longer afford to.

I beg to differ with your Gibson assessment of the universe -- but ebay is truly the economic blue-book for any good for sale. #When things dump there, assume the worst for the retail market. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Mar-30-2004, 11:21am
Hey Elen... Anybody getting brentrups repossesed out there? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

John Zimm
Mar-30-2004, 11:51am
I am a little skeptical about ebay being that great an economic barometer. The price you pay for anything on ebay has to account for shipping, which has deterred me many times from buying things there. I figure I have to find something for at least $6 less than what I can get it for in Madison, which skews the price side of the equation. As for instruments, the buyer has to account for a lot of things-$30 shipping, buying the cat in the bag since they can't really test out the mandolin over the internet-all of which skews demand. What ebay has done is given people an easy way to unload their junk, while connecting them with others who want to buy junk (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3395921424&category=2312).

I think Big Joe is right here-we live well in America. A lot of people from around the world would love to be unemployed here.


Mar-30-2004, 12:02pm
" . #As for instruments, the buyer has to account for a lot of things-$30 shipping, buying the cat in the bag since they can't really test out the mandolin over the internet-all of which skews demand. #What ebay has done is given people an easy way to unload their junk, while connecting them with others who want to buy junk. "

Uh......yeah, that's right!..... So you cats quit bidding on that dang Ebay junk. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Mar-30-2004, 12:02pm
I think it is more than just semantics that the phrase about E-bay was "pretty fair barometer", not "exact predictor". #Any price you pay for anything will have shipping as a componant, it is just more evident in some transactions than others. #But if you see multiple transactions for a type of item at one price and then you start seeing them sell for a lower (or higher price), that is a "pretty fair barometer" of the market for that item. #Don't go overboard in conclusions based on one sale, someone might have just bought or sold without knowing true values.

Mar-30-2004, 12:11pm
". #Don't go overboard in conclusions based on one sale, someone might have just bought or sold without knowing true values. "

I don't think the old saying 'Even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes' applies here.

The seller was a Dealer & the buyer was bidding on multiple like items..........

Mar-30-2004, 12:52pm
I think Ebay is a good indicator of things. It sure isnt the exact predictor but you can get the feel of the market. And believe me not all things are Junk like Buckley thinks. If you look at some of the high dollar Collectables and even high dollar mandolins and other sutff that have sold on ebay you will find that further from the truth. Sure there is junk on ebay but all of it isn't junk.

Truth is if you don't like Ebay because of paying shipping on stuff just go to the retail store and pay the Taxes http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Also as far as instruments ago it is better IMHO to sell on ebay than to try to trade it into a music retail shop and only get 50-60 percent of the value.

That was one of the big things with Gruhn if you ever wanted to consign they would always say we can put it on our web page and millions will see it.. Well so what millions can see it on ebay to. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Mar-30-2004, 1:06pm
Maverick....if I ever hear of a Brentrup being sold at a foreclosure auction, trust me, my lily white ample rear will be the first one sitting on the courthouse steps with cash in my nasty hand waiting for the auctioneer to arrive.

The truth is, even when "momentarily out of cash", a seriously addicted picker will find the money somewhere for the instrument of their dreams - be it on ebay, brick and mortar, or "Chez Hans". #I could afford mine only because I had one of those fabulous law cases that threw money at me all at once. #Normally, I am a modest living, hard working dog, like the rest of the universe, who has to watch for a bargain. #I have tracked the cost of all kinds of mandolins for quite a while on ebay, and I can clearly see that there is a shortage of cash out there for the higher end toys.

Big Joe
Mar-30-2004, 1:11pm
I don't shop e-bay and have no interest in spending endless hours addicted to watching any product that one may wish to sell. While I know many do, most in America have never been to an e-bay website. Most would not buy from any site on the internet. That does not mean many don't, just that a good share of the population has other ways to do business than e-bay. It is a good barometer of those who shop e-bay and that is about all it really reflects.

There are many reasons one may like to shop e-bay and many not to. I prefer shopping in my own community and supporting those who live in my community and make their living here. I prefer buying American made products and do every time I can. I would rather spend a little more to get my products that way than worry about what is going on in the digital world. Not everyone thinks like me and that is fine. That is why there are many wonderful shops in each town and why e-bay suits some.

If e-bay were the arbiter of what is really going on in America most stores would have to close and look to the mighty internet god to determine how to sell and at what price. Fortunately that is not the case. I maintain e-bay is only a barometer of those who shop e-bay and nothing more.

In most cases the product sold on e-bay will bring more than it would in the local community. Why do you think so many are selling product there? No one wants to pay that much locally so the good deal you got on e-bay may not be such a good deal after all. Most auctions bring higher prices than the prevailing price in the community. That is why auctioneers do so well. Anyway, just my philosophy.

Mar-30-2004, 1:51pm
Okay...I'm popping popcorn for the rest of this thread!

Pork rinds anyone?

Mar-30-2004, 1:55pm
"most in America have never been to an e-bay website"
" Most would not buy from any site on the internet."

Big Joe....your just plain wrong about the above. As an Auctioneer I do apprieciate the below......however misguided that statement may be.

"Most auctions bring higher prices than the prevailing price in the community. #That is why auctioneers do so well"

***Oh yeah, Joe what portion of (insert First Quality, Elderly, Mandolin Bros,FOTW, etc etc etc) total sales are internet related......It might just be a WHOLE LOT more than you think....

*******Uh......one more thing Joe. If Ebay is so high $$$.....What happened on that $1725 new F9...... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Tom C
Mar-30-2004, 1:58pm
The problem with ebay is that some prices may actually be higher than in a store. Not many people have a store like Mandolin Bros within an hour drive like I do. That, with the fact that many people have alot of money(not me), when
something comes along that they want, they will pay for it. period. Like with the older Gibson "A"s, I would rather go to MandoBros play it, hear it, make sure it is structurally solid, and pay a couple of hundred more.
Ding!! --Popcorn done

Big Joe
Mar-30-2004, 2:15pm
My reply was not that internet sales are not good. Just that e-bay is not the end all to the music community or any other product. Yes, many sales are done on the internet but most sales are still done by the local store in a particular community. I recently bought a new dining room table. I don't even know if e=bay sells them, but I certainly would not purchase one there. I could look on the internet and find a dealer than may have sold it for less. However, they are not going to deliver it, set it up, service it, take care of any warranty problems, help me get extra chairs, etc, etc, etc.

The same holds true for musical instruments. Like everyone else, I like to get them as inexpensively as I can, but price alone is not a reflection of cost or expense. For example, many complain about F9 set up when they buy them from internet suppliers. The instrument was never checked or set up by anyone at the store where it was purchased even though it may have hung there for six months. No one knows anything about them and when the customer gets it the mandolin needs a professional setup. That can cost $75.00. The fifty bucks they saved by buying on the internet is now an expensive proposition. Not only is there the cost of the setup, but the frustration of an instrument that does not play right or finding someone competent to fix it. Many times it is taken to someone well intentioned who cannot set it up properly. Now the customer is mad at Gibson and finally when and if it gets taken care of for him his joy of the purchase is so tainted he gets rid of it. Not much of a bargain in my books. That is not all internet sales, but enough that it makes me aware of how gratefull I am there are local dealers who will and do service their customers.

The final sale price of any product whether purchased on e-bay or an internet store or the local store is not the same as the final cost of the instrument. Many other factors are involved. For me, I prefer dealing with people locally who will take care of me and see that I recieve the care needed to make me a happy customer. I realize it will cost more dollars out front, but that is a small price to pay for ultimate happiness. The cost of the instrument alone is not the same as cost of ownership. For me, and millions of other Americans, e-bay is not a viable option for our daily lives. For some it is and they are welcome to throw the dice and see what happens. I find my excitement in other areas. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

Mar-30-2004, 2:23pm
Are Gibson mandolins shipped to the retailer with the strings on it and the bridge in place? I keep hearing about having to have a new mandolin set-up and I just don't get it. Somebody please explain!

Mar-30-2004, 2:55pm
Joe, no one is arguring the added value of buying locally. Any halfway experienced player knows a mando needs to be dialed in to his or her specific style of play.....so let's not make setup an issue.

The dining room table analogy just don't "gee-haw" with the current mando discussion either, so let's chunk that out the window to.

Now.......answer this one question for me. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

"*******Uh......one more thing Joe. If Ebay is so high $$$.....What happened on that $1725 new F9...... "

Mar-30-2004, 3:06pm
Another thing...and let's all take deep breath because this is starting to feel somewhat heated...things on Ebay sometimes go for less because of no rental space. A lot of high end music stores have to pay multiple people to work, light bills, exclusive dealer rights, lease, etc. I think that all of these costs factor into the price a tad bit. The average person buying and selling on ebay pays a very small fraction of that and can offer things for less. I know of so many people who buy books wholesale and make their living selling them on ebay because all they have to do is answer some emails and go to the USPS every week. No bills to pay exept the ones they're already paying (rent, internet, etc)

John Zimm
Mar-30-2004, 3:38pm
It looks like this has degenerated from "ebay is a good indication of the market value" to "ebay is great/ebay sux." I probably did my part by labeling what is sold on ebay as junk, and I regret that.

However, I think Big Joe is right here. Ebay is an indication of the ebay market. Not a lot of people, relatively speaking, use ebay. It is just not logical to say that because prices on ebay are falling that the economy is in the toilet.


Mar-30-2004, 3:39pm
Why can't we all just get alone?
R. King

Mar-30-2004, 3:48pm
"Why can't we all just get alone?"

Well then we would'nt have anything to bitch about would we..hehe

Mar-30-2004, 3:58pm
Old Rodney not too brignt-try "along"!

Mar-30-2004, 4:14pm
This is just a discussion so I hope no one is getting their feathers ruffled. I think Joe is a little out of touch with the amount of business done online & on Ebay. A lot of "older" folks are unaware of the magnitude of it all... #Not that I'm calling anyone old! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Carry on folks, I gotta work tonight (an auction... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif) so I'll catch up on the state of the union late tonight.

John Zimm
Mar-30-2004, 4:41pm
No hard feeling here. I like a good "discussion". http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Mar-30-2004, 5:06pm
Oh my Gawd.....here comes another one F9 on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3715044786&category=10179) With no reserve!

Joe, how many of those things are you guys churning out up there?

Buckley, this one is for you #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #Gibson Killer F Style (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3714971834&category=10179) #On a scale of 1-10....it's a 10!

Big Joe
Mar-30-2004, 6:23pm
I have no amimos towards anyone and this discussion is just that...a discussion. I have my view and, of course, it must be right! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . In reality it is just that and us "old folks" who can barely hobble to the office every day really may not buy online for many reasons. I realize, seriously, lots of stuff is sold online and I have no problem with that. However, in the 300 million people in this nation alone, the e=bay shoppers represent a pretty small portion of the population for a variety of reasons. That does not make e=bay good or evil, just e-bay. Just cause I don't shop there does not mean others shouldn't. Just my thoughts. Live long and play hard!

John Zimm
Mar-30-2004, 8:39pm

Thanks for the link. I think I am seasick after looking at those pictures. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Dang, I don't know what is worse, that guy's photography, or the mug with a naked picture of Bon Jovi. Can a guy get therapy on ebay? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

That looks like a fine little F9 I wouldn't mind having one of those one day. I better keep watching ebay. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Mar-30-2004, 9:44pm
And that little F9 is only a few miles south of me, hmmm # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif # #I could save on shipping charges.

I for one believe the internet has changed retail business alot. I buy items that are unavailable in any store, even if it is made a few miles away.
I shop on the internet and ask local businesses to match or beat prices, usually with success. A few times I have brought links with me and brought them up on a stores pc, they will adjust their price to make the sale even if it is on ebay.

Some prices go up and some down, what the internet has helped do is to level prices state to state.

Bill Snyder
Mar-30-2004, 10:31pm
I purchase things on ebay from time to time. I have gotten some bargains and also paid too much for items. Generally speaking I would guess I get a pretty fair deal, otherwise I would not continue to purchase there.
I do agree with Big Joe's assesment at least in part. Most people in this country have never shopped on ebay. There is still a very high percentage of people that do not use the internet and several who have internet access use it for nothing more than email, particularly lots of "old folks".
Ebayers are looking for bargains. The prices they are usually willing to pay are going to be less than the going prices locally. Why else would you want to bid and take days to get it and gamble that it is as listed?
ebay IS big business. Billions of dollars worth of goods sold annually. The internet is representing a bigger piece of the sales pie all the time. Gibson knows it. They have a pretty slick website and some of their employees even activley take part in some online forums. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Buy on ebay/online if you want to, I do. Just educate yourself about prices and merchandise before you bid/order. I try to do that too. #

mad dawg
Mar-30-2004, 11:58pm
The problem with ebay is that some prices may actually be higher than in a store.
...then I guess other prices on eBay may actually be lower than in a store. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Mar-31-2004, 7:34am
treidm...your community may have a problem. There are pockets of unemployment in any economy. On the other hand, the unions are more to blame for the enemployment problems in our modern society than nearly anything else. The unflexible means they use to extort funds that are not available from business is driving them to other locations where they can operate and be profitable. If a business cannot be profitable, there is not reason for it to exist and if the labor costs exceed the profit then they have two choices. Close or move. There was a day when labor unions filled a needed void in America, but that day has long since passed. Now the unions bleed the pockets of the members by dues and fees and provide nothing but empty promises for the workers. Most AMericans would be better off without a union in our current times.

On the other hand, there are many places...including Nashville...that has a real problem getting enough workers to handle the availability. If one cannot find work where they are and it is getting tough, just move. That is what people have to do all the time. I realize that sounds hard and I don't mean to be that way, but it is one solution. Of course, in most communities there is plenty of work available but it is below the dignity of most American adults. The wage may not be what the previous wage was and one cannot see themselves having to flip burgers at Macs but would rather complain about the government and tough times. This represents some pretty good economic times when our enemployed will not take jobs because they don't pay enough. I'm not saying that is your case, but by and large that is the truth about Americans. There are many jobs going unfilled in most areas of our nation because the potential workforce will not take the jobs.

WHile I realize the pay may be substandard for a family with house payments and car payments and credit card debt up the wazoo, but those are lifestyle problems not related to anyone but the individual. Everyone has to face tough economic times at some point and the best solution I've found to that problem is to work and get what one can till he can do better. Something is always better than nothing. I realize I will be blasted for this post, but it is still just plain common sense and truth.

I wish everyone well and hope they can find thier dreams come true. I have made mine come to pass. I've been through some pretty tough times and believe me, this current economy is pretty darn good. At least we don't have double digit unemployment with 18% interest rates to go with it.

For the man who is currently unemployed he is in a recession. For the rest of the nation, we are in the best economic times in history with little sign of trouble. I'm just glad times are so good and have been for twenty years now. I recall clearly the days in the past when real recession gripped our nation. Now we are blessed to only see pockets of economic problems. The nation as a whole is doing pretty darn good!

Mar-31-2004, 8:58am
Wow. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Mar-31-2004, 8:59am
I hope that post doesn't reflect the opinions of Gibson? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Mar-31-2004, 9:09am
Stop, halt, alto....DO NOT REPLY TO THE ABOVE POST......I know I know, it's killing me to ! #It just proves my point about how "out of touch" some folks are.

Joe, we love ya man.......but geez.............nuff said I hope!

John Zimm
Mar-31-2004, 9:40am
Great post Big Joe.

It is also good to remember that government doesn't create jobs or opportunities, by and large it gets in the way. Imagine how much easier it would be for an independant luthier to make it if he didn't have to pay so much in taxes at every turn.

It seems like there is a big divide here so I for one will let this drop. I will say however, it really burns me up when people refer to our President as Shrub. Grow up. You sound like those fanatic Clinton haters in the 90s.

Anyway, that F9 on ebay looks really sweet.


John Zimm
Mar-31-2004, 9:45am
Outsourcing is actually not a terible thing as it frees resources that go to other means. If people can obtain a product more cheaply, then money that would have been used for software development can be used for other things like workers' wages. But don't believe me, read this. (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=SVBIZINK4.story&STORY=/www/story/03-30-2004/0002137661&EDATE=TUE+Mar+30+2004,+01:30+PM)

Yeah, that Keynesian approach in the 70s did great things for our economy-remember what inflation and unemployment was like then? Like it or not, Reagan's tax cuts in '83 had a lot more to do with the recovery of the 90's than anything Mr. Clinton did.

As for your numbers on corporate profits, that is to be expected. Entrepreneurs are usually the first ones to benefit from a recovery.


Scotti Adams
Mar-31-2004, 9:56am
..uh..pass the popcorn..my big gulp Dr. Pepper and those snow caps...Dale..down in front.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif .....this trailer is better than the real show..as in most cases...

Mar-31-2004, 10:00am
If you took all of the economists in the world and placed them end-to-end, they still wouldn't reach a conclusion...

Trying to evaluate economics independent of your own situational biases is almost as futile as trying to decide who is the best luthier and mandolinist..

Mar-31-2004, 10:12am
Oh man....I knew this was gonna happen when I read that post.

We better get back on track folks!

You guys go buy those F9's on Ebay, locally or wherever......& keep America & Big Joe working.

John Zimm
Mar-31-2004, 10:12am
Comparing job growth to the President who is in office is kinda like giving the rooster credit for the sun coming up. Other than damaging the economy, the government can do little. It is one persistent myth from the New Deal era that US citizens need the government to create their job and provide them with every worldly need. Unfortunately, when we tried that we ended up extending the Great Depression and creating the 70s. If the gas shortage was a fake, how do you explain away the evidence showing that it existed?

power shortage crisis of late that corporate america put on us
Dang, your ignorance of the power crisis is showing. Corporations caused this? Try government regulations.


John Zimm
Mar-31-2004, 10:14am
bulk of taxes come from the middle class.
This is just wrong. First of all, "middle class" is a marketing term that some people have bought up uncritically. Second, the wealthy actually pay the vast majority of taxes in this country, like it or not.

I am done with this. There is no arguing with this kind of ignorance.


Mar-31-2004, 10:15am
Sensors detect a lockdown approaching from the Scott sector at warp 3. Mando content lacking.

I always find it beneficial to share my political views on the Mandolin Cafe - or anywhere eles for that matter. I've discovered that most folks really like hearing my political views and once they hear them, they instantly side with me. Maybe I should be running for office


John Zimm
Mar-31-2004, 10:19am
Okay, I lied.

Clinton recovery
Try Reagan recovery.

Anyway, it looks like that F9 is up to $1,300. Any guesses on the final price?


Mar-31-2004, 10:22am
Yeah buddy....nothing like a good "charbroil" first thing in the morning.

Let's all go take two advil & make a fresh pot of coffee.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

"Any guesses on the final price?"

About $1600........no case with that one.....

Mar-31-2004, 10:34am
I think I'm going to try and find that girl Charlie was necking with in the upper tier a few posts back. **Sneaking in a flask of KY Bourbon**

Jim http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

Mar-31-2004, 10:39am
Triedm, you had a right to as it was addressed to you & I think we all acknowledge that.

As for the rest of us (myself included), we should try to avoid that slippery slope. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Mar-31-2004, 10:40am
I understand that everyone is entitled to an opinion....but could you guys find a political/social science forum. I came here to find out about these F9's on ebay.

Big Joe
Mar-31-2004, 10:41am
My, I love mandolins. Too bad the economy is in the toilet so we can't afford them. I guess I'll have to return my two master models and my half dozen or so upper end guitars and my new jeep and give my house back to the bank (even though it is paid for). Since I live in Tennessee and the economy is that bad I'll have to go on welfare and get my food stamps and Tencare insurance. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Our church will have to shut down that new building they just moved into last week. My wife will have to give her job up because there is no union to see she gets fair working conditions and good pay. Too much or her product goes overseas because of NAFTA so she should give up her job. She would have to sell her new jeep and her new sewing machines she makes her quilts on.

Seriously, I do understand economic factors quite well. Mine may not agree with everyone else's, but I understand both sides. I may not agree with the other view, but I do understand. Maybe that is why I don't agree. I have worked as a union member and have owned my own business. I have been responsible for my own wages for most of my life on a commission basis. My pay has been dependent upon my production and not what some union will tell me I can make. My pay system is not for everyone but it has served me well for many many years.

I have been through enough economic shifts in my life to understand them and I remember all too well a few of them. Some were good, some were not. However, this post is not conducive to mandolin enrichment (except for mine which I guess I have to sell ?). Seriously I will be happy to discuss economics, politics, religion, fishing, favorite bluegrass musician, favorite form of jazz, favorite rock group, or whatever anyone else wishes to discuss. You can just email me and I'll be happy to continue a fair and unheated discussion. I do not wish to continue such a discourse here. It does make thing interesting, but not the appropriate place for such discussions and for making my personal viewpoints known on a mandolin forum I truly apolagize and will attempt (note I said attempt) to refrain in the future. Thank you. Oh, yes, I love everybody. I feel a Peter Paul and Mary song coming on http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

Mar-31-2004, 10:45am
More Twizzlers over here in row 2 please!

Mar-31-2004, 10:46am
With that it is now "intermission"........everyone please go to the concession stand.

John Zimm
Mar-31-2004, 10:51am
I understand that everyone is entitled to an opinion....but could you guys find a political/social science forum. I came here to find out about these F9's on ebay.
I agree, and my apologies for hijacking this thread. Check out this forum (http://www.ronaldreagan.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi) where I am a moderator. We are pretty tough on trolls, but if people are respectful it is a good place for political debates. I think what set me off was when our President was referred to as Shrub. I hate disrespect.

On that note, I am guessing the F9 will go for around $1,700. There is enough time for people to go crazy and want it badly enough to bid that high. If I had the money there is an Absaroka on ebay right now. Dang, I need to find a better job to fund MAS. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Mar-31-2004, 10:51am
BigJoe, where can I find your email? (or you can just email it to me at shammac@emory.edu)

Mar-31-2004, 10:55am
I gots to Pee! but I am afraid to leave my computer for intermession. I may miss something http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I have my views being that I have a technical support job and my types of jobs are going over to India but I gonna lay low...Last time I got invloved in a discussion like this I got in trouble... So I gonna's be quiet

Mar-31-2004, 11:25am
Hey Dale-

Where's the Ju Ju Bees? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Mar-31-2004, 11:53am
No Ju Ju Bees...........here have a Milk Dud or Corn Nut.

I get a kickback from our local Dentist for every referral. Milk Duds are great at pulling off crowns & fillings & Corn Nuts could break a windshield!

Mar-31-2004, 12:22pm
whoa folks, I call time out! This shouldn't turn into a political forum!

Remember, we have a common interest, but bringing in political debate is bound to just cause polarized arguments. Let's keep it to mandolins!

Mar-31-2004, 12:39pm
Oh, and by the way, it sold for $1725.00.

Mar-31-2004, 12:41pm
Yeah...this is a mandolin board. Plus, you've got the whole Patriot Act thing, so you best be careful what you say and who....

...uhoh, some guys in black coats and sunglasses are banging on my door.

Mar-31-2004, 12:56pm
Here is the Ebay laugh of the day! Ebay Laugh Of The Day (http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3715185748&category=10179)

I think this guy finally got a job in a music store. #Todd (http://www.j-walk.com/other/todd/aboutme.htm)

John Zimm
Mar-31-2004, 1:42pm

That's hilarious. Dang, look for that mandolin to fetch more than the controversial F9. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I wonder if Turd was the guy on whom School of Rock was based. I can see him now, raising his chalice of rock...


Mar-31-2004, 1:44pm
Hey dale, I like how they call that a PRO mandolin. Yeah, umm, right.

Mar-31-2004, 1:44pm
Dale, you are so kind for hiring Todd. Are you gonna start distributing those American-maid Galvestons too?

Mar-31-2004, 1:58pm


LMAO!!......Those lines are priceless......

Mar-31-2004, 2:01pm
Dale, I think you need to buy all of those he can sell you. This may be your all-round "working man's mandolin". It has a glamourous Texas city name and looks like it was made to be played in a Baytown beer joint.

Mar-31-2004, 2:14pm
When I was trying to upgrade off my Mid Mo to a Rigel one of the points of the Rigel I was pointing out to my wife was the installed pick up. She went on ebay saw mandolins like this one and came back saying she didn't understand why I needed a thousand or more bucks for one when I could get a good one on ebay for around a hundred. She's not really that ignorant of instruments, but really hates MAS.

Mar-31-2004, 2:17pm
George & Lee, you folks wouldn't be doing me this way if it wasn't for that used MK I have.......ARGH! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Mar-31-2004, 2:58pm
Dale give him a brake. You know if you did hire Turd, I mean Todd, I mean the Guitar God, he could demonstrate the varius guitras to your customors. That would free up more of your time to play your MK and sing about meaningful things like isuues such as life, death, and drugs and even relation chips. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif


Mar-31-2004, 4:20pm
All the songs Dale knows are about Texas http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Mar-31-2004, 4:24pm
Big Joe...as usual, you have shown the Gibson sensitivity to the woes of its fellow man. Every dog has its day, and I pray you don't get your opportunity to eat Alpo with a lot of your under and unemployed fellow citizens. Perhaps you will be able to eat your words instead. Your attitude is precisely why I will never buy a new Gibson...

Mar-31-2004, 4:28pm
This is not a mandolin but you have got to read this guys description! Priceless! I guess it could go under the builders section but....

Router Table (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2389286139&category=20781)

Mar-31-2004, 4:32pm
I have to agree that those comments were quite insensitive, and totally uncalled for. I know at least 5 good friends off the top of my head who got laid off some time after this 9/11 business because their companies went south, and know they're struggling to keep the lights on with lesser paying jobs. And just this week I had to help my neighbor buy groceries for his kids this week.

If the situation is so hunky-dory in Nashville, maybe you should keep it to yourself and save the braggadocio for the Bush 2004 rallies.

Mar-31-2004, 4:35pm
Okay, about 10 this morning, everyone realized that this was too political and all of the participants in the heated portions stepped back. #Maybe we shouldn't start another round...

Apr-01-2004, 9:39pm
Hey everybody -- run to the bar -- Tim said he was buying another round!!!!!

Apr-02-2004, 3:00am
As an unemployed person, competeing against folks with MBAs for low paying adminstrative jobs, I've had the opportunity to do quite a bit of dealing on Ebay lately to try and bridge the cash gap (I refuse to turn loose of the mando tho).

Pretty much everything I put up sold at or slightly above what I'd recieved for similar items in the past. I do think prices on used instruments are down a bit, because of either real or perceived economic uncertainity has more people selling instruments because they need the cash and fewer people buying second instruments and "whim" purchases. Certainly there are plenty of people out there who are well off and spending away and more power to em, but I know a lot of folks like me who can't pay the rent flipping burgers who are selling those extras and not buying any new ones for awhile.

And for the record, even McDonalds doesn't jump to hire folks like me, because they justifably assume that we will jump ship as soon as we can find something else.

Apr-03-2004, 6:12am
Yo, Check this one out...
# I was going to buy a custom Weber Yellowstone, with a Cedar Top similar to this Fern (http://soundtoearth.com/inst_cust_ma_cedarfern.htm) in almost everyway, A few other small upgrades, and it was tone bar braced... Decided however to go for the Gibson F9... I would have been paying 3250 for the Weber, and found a new F9 for 2400, and some used ones for under 2k... Now 3 questions for you true experts out there, and do your best to address them all because I really respect your opinions (I read a lot of your posts just never really want o bother you guys with questions, and you can find out most anything by doing a good search)




Thanks guys youre all great on this board, BTW I agree Im crazy about the f9 too, I love the subtle beauty, and clean look of them.

Apr-03-2004, 11:44am
Zemper, I'll answer your questions based on my opinion.

1. If you are playing bluegrass, then the F9 I think was the better choice, although a tone bar braced Yellowstone is a good bluegrass mandolin as well. The yellowstone will have a "prettier" sunburst look and finish, but you can see the difference in price as well. Each mandolin will have a slightly different sound and I think you have to satisfy yourself and what you like in tone and sound. You do that by playing as many instruments as possible. The F9 I currently have is one of the better playing, sounding mandolins I've had or had the opportunity to play. I think the best way to describe it is it just feels right.

2. I would say if you're within 250 to 300 dollars of a new one, I'd go with the new one for the lifetime warranty. That being said, you should know that Charlie and his crew at Gibson OAI will stand behind their products even though you're not the original owner.

3. I'm sure I've read comments from Charlie and Big Joe about the F9 being built to the exacting standards the same as their flagship Master Model, listing at over $15k. Now, there are lots of differences, like tone wood, finish, put together with hide glue, etc, but as far as the tone chamber and plate tuning, they are the same. As far as sound, I think they do have the classic dry, woody bluegrass sound Gibson is famous for, but at an entry level price that most can afford.

I hope that answered most of your questions. Good luck in your hunt for a new mandolin, and let us know what you get. I couldn't be more satisfied with my F9.

Jim Watts

Apr-06-2004, 12:27pm
Last Call folks....... F9 on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3715044786&rd=1)

John Zimm
Apr-06-2004, 12:35pm
C'mon Dale, won't you bid $1,700 for me so that my prediction on a previous page of this thread will come true? Only $74 shy of my prediction.


Frank Russell
Apr-06-2004, 1:01pm
Hey Zemper - Are you able to play any of the F9's you are looking at? I believe in doing that, as well as many others on this board. That being said, where I live there are slim pickins for mandolins to try, so I never get to follow that advice. If you can save more than $300 going used, go for it. My used F9 is my favorite mandolin so far, and I've played every Weber except their new 2 point, and have owned several. I love Webers, but for pure bluegrass tone, my very affordable F9 wins hands down. I made a few additions, like a new fossilized ivory nut and bridge saddle, and that added an even louder, cleaner dimension to an already good sound. For less than $2K, I now have an F that sounds as good as most of the high-end Gibsons I have played. I also like the non-existent fingerboard extension. No clicking. Frank

Apr-07-2004, 1:20am
I didnt get to play it, but the company I purchased it from (by the way I bought the new one for 2300) has a two day refusal period so I am going to give it a chance. I think from what everyone has to say about them that I will be perfectly satisfied and look forward to recieving it in the mail this friday, I will be sure to let you know what I think when I do get it....

Thanks again for all of your help.... I posted a pic of the F9 I picked out... #It seems to have quite a little bit of flame on the back...

BTW #Regarding all the politics

I am a 20 year old kid, emphasis on the kid, and I have been reading your posts for a while. I usually hesitate to post because I dont feel like I am part of the conversation mainly because I dont involve myself enough, HOWEVER about this conversation....

I think it is safe to say that Ebay is a major sales monster, and it happens to be one that we can track and watch, if we could ask local retail stores for their profit reciepts maybe we would do that, but take EBAY for what its worth.

I personally find it to be a great barometer for what is going on around us in the economy, but feel that there are a few factors to take into account, for a few reasons....

1. Ebay is a giant listing service that sells all kind of products to all kinds of people, all around the world, in all walks of life. #If you can find a trend in different types of items that are being sold to this diverse of a market, that means that there must be some connecting factor. It might be coincidence of course, but on a large recurring scale it is hard to deny some common tie between the price changes.

2. Another thing to keep in mind is that Ebay only represents ebay users so it is not a perfect barometer.Still I feel it should be taken with quite a large grain of sea salt. It may not be perfect, but it is a very good indicator to say the least...

3. For those who belive ebay is taking jobs away, IT IS..... EBAY and other online retailing is a mjor global change. If you dont think it is changing how the world works you are living with a blindfold on. It gives entrepeneurial 20-somethings (anyone for that matter) an opportunity to step up and be their own buisness person. It is now our job to step up, raise the bar and be competitive here. Dont stand around and watch, use what you know to make this global change in how buisness works, work for you.

4. We are living in times where everything on the planet is becoming so accessable. If you are a musician you can record an entire album in your bedroom with a Laptop computer and a TRS to Stereo-Mini monster cable. If you own a DV camera and Final Cut Pro suddenly you are an independant film maker....

# I feel like those who step up with a little bit of creativity and courage mixed with some computer saviness can do anything they want to and those who cant are getting left behind. Only down side is those who don't, that used to be the sound engineers at recording studios and tape editors and film storage managers at film companies, are losing their jobs because the digital world is backspacing their jobs into a keen mixture of Ones and Zeros....

# Its hard in these changing times not to fall behind and get discouraged and jealous of what others can do, but if you let it inspire you to do more with the tools at your fingertips, then there is no limit to what you can achieve.

# I have a lot of respect for what you guys say and just wanted to let you know how I felt.. Thanks for listening.

Oh, and about those F9s..... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Apr-07-2004, 7:06am
I think that as the older generation phases out and the younger generation phases in, e-bay, and whatever competitors it has at the time will become more and more of an accurate barametor of used (and often new) market value. I am a 20-something almost 30-something, and from my senior year in high school on, computers have become an integral part of my academic and later proffesional life. And let me tell you, most of the young kids today grow up with these things from day 1. The internet is a commerce powerhouse the likes of which the world has never seen, even if it hasn't reached its potential yet, it will, and those who don't keep up will ultimately fall behind the power curve.

Let me ask a serious question. How do you estimate the used market value of an instrument? Do you ask your local dealer? Only if you're a fool. Do you look it up in Gruhn's book of jacked-up prices? Ditto. These are dealer/distributor based models of pricing.

As a consumer, I basically have two methods at my disposal. Look at what people are advertising instruments on these classifieds for, see if they sell, and assume they sold for about $100-200 less than asking price, or go to e-bay and see what the ending bid is...obviously e-bay is the more accurate baramoter because folks don't update their ads with what they sold their instruments for here.

There is a big difference between what a dealer or builder thinks their instrument should sell for and what it actually does sell for. Where can you get this kind of information? Your dealer won't tell you, and in most cases a builder won't either because they play the retail game, which I can only hope will in time also become an archaic model to work by.

I'm afraid the old model of doing business itself has made models like e-bay the most accurate barometer of used instrument value available to consumers, even if the e-bay community does not encompass the sum-and-total of instrument buyers.

Apr-07-2004, 7:27am
jlb- I'll agree with most of that except the implication that because kids are growing up with computers means something special. #I'm in my mid-40s and I see kids coming out of college who present themselves as computer-savy but don't really have much more than a surface knowledge. #

A parallel might be that I grew up with a telephone in the house, my dad didn't. #That didn't make me automatically able to fully leverage the telephone in a business setting. #The telephone, the computer, the "next revolutionary gadget" - they are all tools that some will use well and many will use superficially.