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glauber
Nov-20-2005, 10:41pm
As you've no doubt hear me say, i'm mostly a flute player. For whatever reason, it's acceptable for flutists to play from music, so i didn't have to memorize stuff until i started playing Irish (bringing sheet music to an Irish session is sort of like showing up with a pocket protector and a slide rule for the first day of high school - don't do it).

Anyway, even memorizing Irish tunes (8 bars, repeat, 8 bars repeat) is a lot of work for me. How can you people play whole Bach suites from memory? What's the trick?

I'm trying to commit my first Bach thing to memory, and it's a presto from the Dm violin suite, the first piece in the Wolf Press Bach mandolin book. What i'm doing with modest success is attacking it short sections at a time: find the first musical idea, memorize it, move to the next one once i get the first one down, etc. I'm 3/4 of the way into the first part, and it's very hard work.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

How do the pros do it?

groveland
Nov-20-2005, 11:07pm
I do like you're doing - Bigger chunks, one at a time, link them together. But HEARING the thing makes it easy for me. If I can hear a performance of it, I'm not far from memorizing it. That may be the missing link for you. Get via your ears, not the page.

Make sense?

newbreedbrian
Nov-20-2005, 11:09pm
i'm far from a pro, but i do it just the way you said. split it up into sections, when you're comfortable with one section move on to the next. hum the tune as well, so if you're hands aren't goin where they should you can correct that. beyond that, play it slow at first until muscle memory kicks in.

Joel Glassman
Nov-20-2005, 11:46pm
Learning music by ear is the best way for me.
(Playing from sheet music doesn't help me memorize tunes.
Different parts of the brain in use, I guess...)
I start by listening to something a lot, and then being able to
hum or sing the melody. After that, I try to transfer the tune
to mandolin 2 bars at a time. By this point I really know the music.

Jim Garber
Nov-21-2005, 12:21am
I have the same problem as most. If I learn by ear I can easily memorize. If I learn by sheet music, not so unless I try hard. I did that with the C major Beethoven sonatina. it is not all that more complicated than fiddle tunes but I could not really play it unless I stopped looking at the music. I am still not there completely but the more I play by heart the better it gets. Emphasis is on the phrase by heart.

Jim

steve in tampa
Nov-21-2005, 6:11am
Repetetion=Retention

When I am working on material, I burn a CD and play it in the work truck in a loop, getting the music burned in my brain. Then the playing part comes much easier.

cyeiser
Nov-21-2005, 9:01am
A teacher early on in my musical career helped me greatly with this tip:

Memorize it backwards!

First, memorize the final phrase, then the one before it, then the one before that, and so on. I find it helps.

But of course there's no substitute for endless repetition.

om21ed
Nov-21-2005, 9:31am
I've struggled with this problem for years. So, my new year's resolution is to memorize at least one simple tune, Bile'em cabbage, St Anne's Reel, something along those lines it doesn't matter. Bach Is over my head, But I might reward myself with a bock. Anyway, This year's strategy is to ask Santa for the Brad Davis Ear Training for Mandolin book/Cd from Elderly, do the backward learning thing cyeiser sugggests and to practice first thing in the am and at night (my regular practice time). By the way, what kind of thing is that "slide rule"--some sort of early music period instrument ?

Avi Ziv
Nov-21-2005, 9:46am
I play Irish music in sessions. There is no sheet music there so everything is memorized. I want to repeat what Joel and others have said - I listen to the pieces I want to learn - over and over again - dozens of times - until I *know* them in my head and can sing them. In fact I do sing them a lot in the car http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif From there to the mandolin is then a muscle memory issue and not a 'head' memory problem. I also find that I can relax and focus on expression, tone, time and all other good things. Someone once said "I don't lean a tune until I know it" and it used to sound paradoxical but not so in this context. I really understand what they meant by now.

Avi

ira
Nov-21-2005, 12:14pm
interesting thread. some songs that i listen to constantly, and play using chord/lyric sheets and/or tab all the time and i still can't get em. i have finally figured out, that moving from listening and using a paper to practicing the tune without a piece of paper in front of me until i have it down ( i go through the whole tune, look at the chords or tab then try it again from memory) has been the only thing that works for me. when its a tab of single notes/double stops, humming the tune has worked for me, when i'm just playing chords behind a tune, singing has worked better.
really a matter of your personal learning style. i

John Flynn
Nov-21-2005, 12:28pm
As some others have pointed out, one trick for remembering tunes is learn to "sing" them. I don't necessarily mean singing in terms of lyrics, although that would work also. I mean humming them or singing the melody in nonsense syllables like "da-da-da-da." The CD set "Ear Training For Mandolin" is based on the idea that if you can sing a melody you can learn it. I would add from experience that if you can sing a tune you have learned, you will be more likely to remember it. However, it takes work. It is harder than it sounds, no pun intended!

Avi Ziv
Nov-21-2005, 12:31pm
Mando Johnny - that's exactly what I was talking about in my posting. It's not easy but it gets easier with practice

Avi

glauber
Nov-21-2005, 12:35pm
All good points, but try to memorize and sing a 15 minute Bach piece. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif There's got to be a point where muscle memory takes over.

The practice backwards thing has helped me a lot with memorizing 16-bar Irish tunes. I will try to remember to apply it to the Bach. I think the way it works is it removes the anxiety that you won't be able to remember the end of the piece. It creates a feeling that "if i can do these few bars, the rest is easy".

One of my flute teachers had what they call a "photographic memory"; she would actually memorize the score. That doesn't work for me, but there is still a visual connection, i.e., if i spend significant amounts of time working with one score, playing the music brings back some amount of visual memory, i.e. i can more or less "see" what part of the page i'm playing, if this makes sense.

Peter Hackman
Nov-21-2005, 1:28pm
I suppose my method for memorizing tunes and their changes
is to understand them. What is the general idea, or general layout of the piece. Why is that chord there,
that note, what does the composer do with that phrase,
etc.

This kind of reflection is almost automatic when
you're transcribing from records.

gnelson651
Nov-21-2005, 1:36pm
I agree to "hear the music in your head" is a good start to learning to play a song from tab or standard notation. But if you don't have the music to listen to then it becomes more difficult.

I play in a mandolin ensemble and at first I can sight read most of the music we receive, if I know the melody. As I practice the song more , it is easier to play. But if I try to play the harmony, it is more difficult.

So being able to hear the music in your hear doesn't work well for playing anything but the melody. I think that muscle memory better serves you in memorizing a piece. Check out Memory Methods (http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:xyyrdhsWcYwJ:www.serve.com/marbeth/memory_methods.html+memorizing+music&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) for some more ideas.

Avi Ziv
Nov-21-2005, 1:45pm
Good point Glenn! Different styles of music can use different methods of study then.

Avi

glauber
Nov-21-2005, 2:10pm
Check out Memory Methods (http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:xyyrdhsWcYwJ:www.serve.com/marbeth/memory_methods.html+memorizing+music&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) for some more ideas.
Thanks, this was a very good read, good article, although piano-centric. That link was to the Google cache; here (http://www.serve.com/marbeth/memory_methods.html)'s the link to the actual page, in case it works better.

Dfyngravity
Nov-21-2005, 4:42pm
play the first 8 bars or so until you've got it memorized. then the next 8 or so, playing the first 8 then the next 8. then learn the next 8, playing the first 8, 2nd 8 and the 3rd 8 and so on. keep this going until you know pretty much know the whole song. then play the whole thing through with the sheet music once or twice, trying to only use the sheet music as a reference point. then after playing it all the way through 1-3 times try to get as far though the peice without sheet music. if you mess up don't look at the sheet music, try to remember where you are and what comes next(only refer back to the sheet music if you truly can not remeber). after you get through it once or twice without the sheet music, no matter how many mess ups, get the sheet music back out and play the song again all the way through. you'll be surprised how many time you have to even glance at it. for larger peices you can memorize more than 8 bar, and for shorter songs you can do less than 8. but 8 is a pretty good standard.

this will even help your sight reading too. you will probably notice that you will be reading many measures ahead of where you are playing.

RolandTumble
Nov-21-2005, 6:09pm
I play mostly--well, almost exclusively--Irish tunes, but I love multi-part tunes (more than two, such as Foxhunter's Reel, Gravel Walks, Boys of Malin, Jig of Slurs (add "The" as appropriate)). Here's my process:

If I can find a recording, I listen to it exhaustively. Slap it in the CD player on "repeat" & listen carefully a time or two, then just go on with life while it keeps playing in the background. For me, that's not enough, so the next step is:

Get out the flyspecks. Read through it once slowly, then start working a on phrase at a time (usually two bars). Play it reading, then look away & play it again. #All that listening pays off, here, as I recognize what I'm playing, and can hear whe it's "wrong" (might just be a variation, which is cool in Irish, so I'll often go with whichever I prefer as the one to "learn"). Once I can play the whole part without the paper, I move on to the next part that I'm working on. I work through each part forwards, but frequently learn the parts "backwards". After I've "got" all the parts, it's just repetition from there. I do find that I'll have to go back to the dots a time or two on the succeeding days--once through reading, then from memory. I try to avoid speeding up 'til I've gotten the tune truly "down", but I'm not always successful. If there are sections I find tricky--either to remember, or just to play--I'll go over them, slowly, separately, then back to the whole tune.

Then I start in on deliberate variations. At this point, I'm still relying on finding an alternate printed version, rather than making them up. I'll work through the alternate almost the same way, but not going to quite the depth. I'll pick one phrase (at a time), and play just that phrase, one way then the other, for a while. Then I go back to playing the whole tune, deciding on the fly which variation I'll play each time through, though it's almost always the first that I learned the first time.

MandoJon
Nov-23-2005, 5:32am
I don't read too well and I don't exactly play by ear either. So, I have always memorised tunes and can memorise quite long pieces.

I do it pretty much like Roland (previous post). Once I have the tune in my head I then stick it there by playing the tune faster and faster until it's so fast I can't even think about it (and don't worry about sounding messy). This gets the tune 'into my fingers'. Lastly I slow right down to get the 'feel'. Sometimes cycling between very fast and very slow helps and when I do the slow bit I sometimes over-accentuate the rhythm to the point of comedy or try to play it in a Reggae rhythm (often fits well for Celtic Trad!). It's not only fun but, like Roland doing his variations, it makes you 'own' the tune.

Pete Martin
Nov-23-2005, 2:28pm
I start by listening to something a lot, and then being able to
hum or sing the melody. After that, I try to transfer the tune
to mandolin 2 bars at a time. By this point I really know the music.

I believe what Joel said works the fastest. Don't play something until you can sing it, then your hands will find it. Like he said, learn a couple of measures (or a logical phrase) at a time, after you can sing it, play it.

I don't know if there is any way to memorize anything "faster". I believe we all learn at "our own rate". Just my opinion. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

John Flynn
Nov-23-2005, 2:44pm
All good points, but try to memorize and sing a 15 minute Bach piece. There's got to be a point where muscle memory takes over.
That may have missed the point. I didn't mean to suggest you ever sing a whole piece. The "Ear Training for Mandolin" CD has you just sing short passages and learn them. Then you move onto the next passage. It's just like we learned the Gettysburg Address in high school: One sentence at a time.

From a philosophical point I have to disagree about muscle memory. Music has such a powerful effect on the brain that I doubt playing from pure muscle memory is even really possible. Part of that "muscle memory" is naturally going to be in the auidtory circuits of your brain, whether it feels like it or not. The singing idea is just a technique for programming those circuits.

bjc
Nov-23-2005, 4:31pm
Two things here:

For long pieces it reminds me of a question Wendy Larry (coach of ODU Lady Monarchs) uses "How do eat an Elephant? One bite at a time." Slow, but it'll get done in time.

And I find that if the peice is hard (i.e. I find myself looking at my fingers a lot) that I memorize the piece quickly (not that I PLAY it great). But I do memorize difficult pieces more easily. Stuff that never leave the first 5 frets take longer for me...

MandoJon
Nov-28-2005, 5:10am
Mando Johnny said:

The "Ear Training for Mandolin" CD has you just sing short passages and learn them.

Is this a good resource? I'm thinking of buying it.

Thanks

Stephanie Reiser
Nov-28-2005, 5:58am
This past spring I memorized Thile's When Mandolins Dream, a mere 249 measures in length. I did it in bite-sized pieces, sometimes only one or two measures at a time. My old piano teacher said that it was 'customary' to perform solos from memory, whereas duets, etc. were allowed from the sheet music.
I think the first step is to know how the tune goes. Then, like many of you've already said, do it in small chunks. I dont think that there is any easy way for the average person. I am amazed at how the pros can commit to memory so much music!

John Craton
Nov-28-2005, 9:03am
I really can't add anything new to what has already been stated, but I will reiterate the concept that phrase-by-phrase memorization is what works best for me. Memorizing things has always been difficult for me, but when forced to do it I take the music a phrase at a time, play it several times with the music, then try playing it from memory. Once I have that down I move on to the next phrase, repeating the same process. Then I work at it till I have both phrases down from memory. It is a long and arduous process, but it seems to work for me. (It's also the technique I use when memorizing lines for a play.)

Some of my students have much better memories than I. One little girl who studied with me a couple of years always came to her lesson with the new material memorized after the first week. She said she didn't try to memorize it, she just did. This sometimes presented its own set of problems, however, as she would occasionally memorize the music with a few wrong notes. It was hard to make the corrections after that, but she would eventually work things out. She had the nearest thing to a photographic memory I've seen to date.

Just keep at it. Once you have the piece memorized you'll probably find you can play it far better than when relying on the notes on the page.

Katie
Nov-30-2005, 1:53pm
I will add just one thing, and it's something that helps in everything from memorizing to sight reading. Don't just listen to other people play. Listen to yourself play. It soulds like a really silly thing to say, but you'd be amazed at how many college music majors don' even do that.
Once you've started getting comfortable with the music, stop focusing so much on the mechanical stuff...where to put your fingers and rhythm, and start listening critically to yourself. Listen to pitch, tone, phrasing. Listen for subtle things. Don't record and listen. Listen as you play. Sometimes you can get into an awesome meditative zone doing this. The point is as you do this you concentrate less and less on the notes in front of you. You've probably got some of it memorized already but the music is a crutch. Listening provides a graded distraction from that crutch. The neat thing is, every time you practice, you're memorizing a little more. You're also noticing more things about you're playing, like what happens to you tone when you hit a difficult passage. Even better, when you listen as you're reading the notes, you start associating written notes with sound. You're relative pitch improves and so does your sight reading because you can hear the pitches before you play them.
Listening to yourself is one of the best things you can do for your playing.
-Katie

cumin
Nov-30-2005, 4:25pm
that was really nicely said.

cumin
Nov-30-2005, 4:36pm
re-reading the thread... what is the "Wolf Press Bach mandolin book"?

glauber
Nov-30-2005, 4:43pm
re-reading the thread... what is the "Wolf Press Bach mandolin book"?
This one (http://www.wolfheadmusic.com/mandobach.htm). Buy here (http://www.wolfheadmusic.com/catalog.htm).

The correct name is "Wolfhead Music", and the book is called "Mandobach". Sorry for the mistake, i was quoting from memory.