12 string bass mandola?

[dave17120]

Well guys, I just bought this monster on Ebay as a restoration project....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws....IT&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7359844187&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1)

.... not sure how to make it hyperlink whizzy.
Anyone any idea how it might be tuned, sorry I don't know the scale length yet.
Hopefully, Dave http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Celtic Saguaro]

Too bad you can't ask the person who put two more strings on it what they had in mind.

Without the scale length it would be hard to guess how it might be tuned.

Have fun with it!

[Sittius]

Okay. I might be mistaken. I'm definitely near blind, but: That thing has 14 tuning pegs. The eBay description says so too! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

It's got a scale of a little over 16"(mensur = scale ), so I'd say definitely Mandola range as far as scale. I believe the overall length is approximately 31" and it seems like that's about the same size as my Johnson MA-550.

I'm guessing this thing is some variant of a waldzither or something like that. Once you make all the repairs to it that are described in the eBay description, I'd suggest establishing what sort of strings it uses. My guess is Nylon or Gut. before doing anything else. I'm not sure how much stress that thing can take. In other words: Go Slow!!! It could very well be a lute/guitar tuning.


Hope this helps

Sit

[steve V. johnson]

You're now officially an innovator, a Magellan... a Da Vinci... So you can tune it =any= way you like it. <GG>

Go forth and break new ground for us!

stv

[delsbrother]

Looks like some of the strings are off the fretboard - like a theorboed lute-family instrument.. Or perhaps the harp-ish instruments shown here (http://www.harpguitars.net/history/org/org-hybrids.htm)..

The word "Schrammel" might refer to Viennese Schrammel Music (http://members.vienna.at/thalia/english/history.html) that's usually played on harp guitars..

Or not. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Darrell

[Martin Jonas]

Well, the German text does refer to two strings only being able to be played open. I'd say it's a strange mixture of a Waldzither and a harp-guitar. Looking at the neck profile, there certainly is a lot of assymetry built into the original design, made worse by the fact that all sorts of joints aren't joined anymore.

I'd guess the open strings are intended to to add a drone. Waldzithers may look like mandolas, but they were tuned in any of a variety of open tunings. Thus, one would play in only one or two keys on the instrument. For example, on an instrument tuned to an open G, it may make sense to have an additional G and D drone, to add a background tonic and fifths to the entire tune.

I've now found a photo of an intact example on the web here (http://www.waldzither.de/dat/bauform.html), and it is indeed a 14-string Waldzither (a "Thueringische Waldzither", to be exact). The maker of your instrument, Th. Heym from the town of Suhl, is specifically mentioned on that web site as being the most famous builder in that style (which implies that there must have been at least two madmen around in Suhl...). The German text also specifically highlights the assymetric neck construction, which they say arose out of the local traditions of cittern-making. The picture is very small, but I can't see the two open strings on it and it seems to be more symmetrical than yours. Apparently, detailed further information is available on a CD-Rom on cittern and Waldzither making in Suhl, published by the local rifle museum (don't ask me why).

There is much much more information on the Thueringer Waldzither at this (http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/zist_thuering.htm) web site. All in German, I'm afraid, but it includes a facsimile of a 19th century tutor and some neck joint cross sections (looking at the condition of yours, you'll probably be interested in the neck joint...). There is lots here on how these instruments were tuned, but the upshot of it is that you could tune it however you wanted -- nobody tuned it like anybody else anyway. CGCEG seems to have been the most common, though, for the more popular 9-string instrument. No idea how that translates into your 14-string version. Here (http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/katalog_zistern.htm) are some more photos -- some of these make yours seem very normal and boring.

Have fun!

Martin

[Jim Garber]

This is esp interesting and different since the two "harp" strings are not bass ones but on the treble side, unless, of course, this is a lefty waldzither. The mind boggles!!

Good luck Dave!

Jim

[glauber]

Not on all pictures??? Maybe some of those pictures are mirror images?

Here the free strings seem to be on top (bass):
http://www.keils.de/eBayBilder/1810/18.jpg


I think the way the arm is carved is very interesting:
http://www.keils.de/eBayBilder/1810/17.jpg

[Jim Garber]

Oops! I must have had a bout of dylsexia.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

You are right, they are bass strings. I still find it amazing they they had available 7-on-a-strip tuners.

Jim

[bolannta]

That neck construction is used by builders of Corsican cetera.
An example (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/liutera-magdeleine/cetera_chevillier6.htm) by Christian Magdeleine (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/liutera-magdeleine/Index.html) and one (http://www.arte-di-a-musica.com/prod/500/dos-Pigna.jpg) at L'Arte di a Musica (http://www.arte-di-a-musica.com/instruments/details.asp?categorie=5&instrument=35&famille=6) by Ugo Casalonga (http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/ugocetera/).
A picture from the L'Arte di a Musica website.
http://www.arte-di-a-musica.com/photos/vign/succi.jpg

[Martin Jonas]

Looking closer at the Ebay photo, it looks to me that Dave's instrument has four courses of three strings each, plus two additional single drone strings. I now see that the drones are referred to as "Lasssaiten", loosely translated as "free strings", in the 19th century German tutor linked above, the relevant page of which I attach below. For that string configuration, the second of the tunings in the tutor below applies, i.e.:

Single strings: F E (there is a hand-written annotation changing the latter to C)

Triple courses: G C E G

However, unless you want to play traditional Thuringian dance music (good luck!), I'd suggest you chose a chromatic tuning in some sensible intervals. You'll lose some of the unique tonality of this beast, though.

Martin

[dave17120]

I never cease to be amazed at the depth and breadth of knowledge on this forum.... its mind boggling. But thank you anyway. I'll do some research, I appreciate all the links, and keep you posted.
I have repaired several 12 strings but no waldzithers yet, it was my impression from the photos that this was some sort of 12 string mandola zither?!? from the size.
Anyone any ideas about the centre? A decoation mounted on linen perhaps?
Dave

[Martin Jonas]

Dave --

The Waldzither belongs to the cittern family, which has a separate descendancy from the mandola. #Waldzithers come in various sizes; yours is roughly mandola-sized and is the most popular size, but much larger and smaller ones also exist. #The instrument largely disappeared from use after WWI, but has enjoyed some recent revival with new ones now being built. #Although (as I said above) they were not originally tuned in fifths but rather in open tunings, it is entirely possible to string them as mandolas or bouzoukis. #This applies in particular to the nine-string variety, where one can just leave off the single bass string drone. #In the 1970s, when flat-backed bouzoukis were still very rare, many old German Waldzithers went to Ireland for that purpose. #Andy Irvine played one for a while, tuned GDAD. #I took the photo below from cafe member chinatogalway's site; it shows Irvine playing a Hamburger Waldzither (slightly different construction from the Thueringer model).

Soundhole roses of various shape were fairly common in old instrument; yours seems fabric-based, which would have been easier to install than a wooden rose.

You will probably find that the triple courses are rather unwieldy; if I were you I'd string them as doubles.

Martin

[chinatogalway]

I actually think Andy tuned his two frets down from a Mandolin, ( FCGC ) and used Mandolin strings and not mandola strings. Capo at second fret to get GDAD.

Andy Irvine/waldzither. (http://www.chinatogalway.com/Bouzouki%20style%20Mandola.htm)

KS