Beginners fiddle

[jaco]

I'm thinking of learning fiddle in addition to mandolin. Looks like a lot of junk on e-bay out there. Anyone have some advice on brands or sources for something half-way decent? Thanks

[Stephen Perry]

Eastman VL100. Snow SV200.

Setup is very important. http://www.giannaviolins.com/Information/BowedFAQ.html might prove useful. If you have a real shop with reasonable prices and excellent service near you, then use it.

If you like fiddle you'll want to step up, so make sure you preserve that option wherever you get something from.

Steve

[Lane Pryce]

I would reccomend Eastman,Gliga and Scott Cao Violins.Like mandolins the setup is everything and that includes gettting a a very decent bow.Get with Steve Perry at Gianna Violins and see what he has to offer. Lp

[mandochuck]

Steve Perry at Gianna will do you right as he did me. When I started playing the fiddle I purchased a outfit from him (Antique Milano) had the bow upgraded and still use it. Anything I need comes from Steve he spends time with you to find out what your needs are and what type of music you want to play and sets the instrument up just for you...a great guy...will always go back to him....my two cents...chuck http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Fred_Murtz]

Find a good fiddle player and convince 'em to help you look at used instruments. You'll get more bang for your buck that way.

[nilodnam]

I too would suggest Steve Perry at Gianna. I bought the Tennessee fiddle, and even new it compares well with much more expensive instruments. The set up made it so much easier to play than the rental I started with. In fact, I am using a cheap loaner (from a friend) while my fiddle is back for a 6 month check up, and I really can't wait to get it back. The only upside is that I have learned to pull good sound from this loaner, and it will be effortless on my Tennessee.

[Steve Farling]

I too suggest Gianna Violins. My daughter just purchased an Eastman VL 80 Outfit a few weeks back and she is very happy with it. The price was right and Steve gave us excellent service. She had her fiddle in just a couple of days! We will definitely buy from him next upgrade.

[Jim M.]

The folks at Ifshin Violins, Ifshin (http://www.ifshinviolins.com)
have a German-made fiddle labeled Alois Sandner (Sandner is a famous instrument making family) that they sell for about $600. It is the best under $1000 violin I've ever played. I have one that was my main gigging fiddle for several years. Call them and ask for Steve. Steve posts here occasionally, and is a really good mando picker too.

[PaulD]

I bought a wreck off ebay... some reassembly required. It plays great, but then I enjoy rebuilding things; I wouldn't recommend that route to most folks. I was going to second the suggestion that you get a decent bow... I learned the hard way how much difference that makes in control and working on your bowing technique.

pd

[jim simpson]

I bought a complete fiddle, bow, case, etc. from Sam Ash for $250.00. It is their Sam Robelli brand. I like it, it has good flamed maple and a nice matte finish. I also own a $40.00 flea market find that also had nice wood but needed a couple of cracks fixed. I repaired it and now I like to alternate between the two as the both have their own voice.

[RolandTumble]

I lucked out on mine, in a way that you can't count on repeating (though it might give you an idea for something similar). This was several years ago now:

I saw a garage sale ad that included "fiddles" in the list--got there, & sure enough, there were several (I think about eight). I asked about them, and the seller told me that the fiddles were actually his dad's, and that he might be interested in trading for a mandolin. I got contact info & went away.

A couple of days later, I called. Turns out the "dad" is a past president of the local Old Time Fiddlers (guild? group?), and has taken up repairing fiddles as a secondary hobby. We set a time, & I came over.

I'd told him that I was an absolute beginner. We talked about "what to look for" before we even got into the specifics. He had one picked out to recommend, along with a second choice, but he didn't tell me which it was 'til we'd worked though all of them, with me "trying" them, and him playing them for me so I could hear what they really sounded like. I really liked the most expensive one, of course, but it wasn't in my budget & was only a little "better" than one of the two tied for lowest price--which turned out to be his "backup" recommendation.

It's a probably-German, possibly-Mittenwald 1920s (or so) Stainer copy. There are a couple of glued cracks in the top (across the grain, in one case), and a visible break repair in the neck, right at the heel (none of these have given me any subsequent problems, at all). I bought it for $125, including a battered leather-over-wood case and a "beginner's" bow (didn't trade the mandolin (which was not my only one, anyway, though it was my very first & I've decided to keep it)). Not the fanciest flame-job, but a lovely dark sound. I later bought a better bow, and yes, it does make a big difference.

Anyway, after all that--a variation on the theme introduced by Fred_Murtz, above: see if you have a local fiddler's association, of whatever style, and find out if one of their members "deals in" fiddles as a sideline (or, failing that, will be willing to help you shop around).

[GBG]

I agree with Fred Murtz 100%, if it's possible to get someone you know to advise you. If you're like me, you can really get taken to the cleaners in buying a fiddle. They don't have Gibson, Martin, Collings, Weber, etc. on the headstock,and a lot of the bad ones look better than the good ones.

[niagaraflsbob]

i was lucky enough to buy a stainer copy (if it has "stainer" in print on the back below the neck it is most certainly a copy, european made) but it has a good deep tone. the advantage of having this branding is that you are most likely getting a pre-war europoean viloin. considering the tradition of violin making in europe i would rather look for this kind of old fiddle instead of the newer fiddles on the market. i have found older european instruments have abetter fiddle sound (my opinion) and some, or most of the cheap imports {$99 on e-bay) range from pure junk to barely serviceable at best.
second the notion of getting a fellow fiddler involved of possible.
and get the best bow you can. i havw two. one came with the stainer when i bought it used. its a little heavy but very straight. i actually like to practice with this bow because it demands better control. i also have a better bow that i upgraded to and i found that this bow is easy to play after using the heavier bow.
just some thoughts

[JamesA]

Finally something I know about; I couldn't agree more with Fred_Murtz. Find somebody who plays fiddle, pick their mind and if they are willing help you locate a good cheap fiddle. I've bought many fiddles over the last 50yrs and find each one an adventure of it's own. Good luck.

[ohohman]

There is a luthier in St. Helens, Oregon who works with several apprentices to build violins. His mission is to get a violin in the hands of anyone who wants to play. I have seen (and heard) examples of his work. He sells the violin complete with a decent case and a quality bow for $100. The same would sell in a music store for about $600. I know it sounds too good to be true, but it is for real. I see his ad in The Oregonian newspaper from time to time. If you are interested, let me know and I'll see if I can find his number for you.
No financial interest.

[WaywardFiddler]

Your fiddle teacher would be happy to help you find a decent instrument. And if you don't have a teacher, get one. There are too many bad habits that are too easy to fall into on the violin and are very hard to break once they set in. If you have a local shop that specializes in violin family instruments, check them out. They are going to be very happy to help out a potential long term customer. I would recomend renting something for a few months. After 6 months or so you will be able to go out and audition instruments yourself instead of asking a bunch of random, well-intentioned folks who are on a discussion board when they should be practicing. BTW -- my local shop credits up to 6 months rent toward any intrument in the shop, if you can find a deal like that, why do anything else?

Also, remember that bows make a huge difference. A low end carbon fiber bow will in general be better than any equal priced wood stick at price points under $500. Spend $100 on a CF bow and you will be off to a good start. Spend $100 on a wood bow and you will outgrow it pretty fast.

[steve in tampa]

Most of the music shops around here offer rentals to the kids taking lessons.

[lindensensei]

Buy a cheap chinese violin on line in the $100-150 range and get a $400.00 bow. You won't know enough about the sound untill you've played it for a couple years to even guess whether its any good and then you can keep the bow and move up. Any violin under $2000.00 is pretty much the same, anyway, but the bow makes all the difference. For some reason, violins and mandolins are really different from guitars. A fifteen hundred dollar guitar is usualy pretty nice. You don't get 'nice' in fiddles and mandos untill you hit about $8000.00 Sorry, way it is.

[Stephen Perry]

There is a luthier in St. Helens, Oregon who works with several apprentices to build violins. #His mission is to get a violin in the hands of anyone who wants to play. #I have seen (and heard) examples of his work. #He sells the violin complete with a decent case and a quality bow for $100. #The same would sell in a music store for about $600. #I know it sounds too good to be true, but it is for real. # I see his ad in The Oregonian newspaper from time to time. #If you are interested, let me know and I'll see if I can find his number for you.
No financial interest.
This would be a loosing proposition. Wholesale for case and bow of reasonable quality would be more than $100. Not to mention wood, strings, bridge, fittings adding to that.

Do be careful of the "apprentice" approach. Garrett Pate in Nashville used teams of apprentices to help him build and market the St. Cecile line of violins, according to one of his stories. This turned out not to be the case.

[RolandTumble]

... #You don't get 'nice' in fiddles and mandos untill you hit about $8000.00 #Sorry, way it is.
While that may be true of violins, it's most definitely not true of mandos. At 8k you're overpaying for useless fripperies, such as scrolls and visually "nice" woods.

I'm not even convinced that it's true of fiddles--differentiated from violins by context & usage.

[Stephen Perry]

Below about $250 difficult to get a violin that will work well without lots of fussing. Generally either rather bright or a bit nasal.

At the $800 level one definitely hits a better grade of instrument. In the BG area we find lots of Eastman VL305 moving into fiddle use with our setup. Surprising to me - I always thought of that as a classical type instrument.

At $1500 to $2400 one is again confronted by substantially superior instruments in reserve, clarity, tonal and dynamic range, etc.

At perhaps $5000 one hits the entry level benchmade instruments. These are often lesser known makers or foreign makers. Some excellent buys in quick responding, intense, professional tools.

At $10,000 one should be getting a good instrument, although I find a number of duds at various shows selling because of provenance.

In older violins, I'm finding much more junk than decent stuff. Often pretty on the outside, but with the interior of the top neglected, marginally controlled graduations, and a range of other flaws. These can be fixed up into nice instruments with the addition of lots of work. Sometimes.

I almost never have new instruments come in for repairs, just for minor adjustments when the seasons change, and for regular maintenance. I have a flood of these fine old violins (generally cheap trade stuff) coming in for repair or evaluation. Many have archaic dimensions, design problems, or structural problems.

Just the opinion of a violinmaker running a violin shop and handling many many violins all the time. I'd go new. I play a new violin. It works great, very brilliant but supple. Roscoe Morgan says it has an "old" violin sound and response.

Have fun.

[glauber]

... You don't get 'nice' in fiddles and mandos untill you hit about $8000.00 Sorry, way it is.
While that may be true of violins, it's most definitely not true of mandos. At 8k you're overpaying for useless fripperies, such as scrolls and visually "nice" woods.
Yes, definitely not true of mandolins. $2K will buy you a professional instrument if you shop around. Heck, my $350 instrument is professional grade (flat-top).

I'm blissfully ignorant of fiddles, but the most expensive ones that i've seen my friends play in Irish music sessions have been in the $4-5K range, and those were people who played $1K instruments for years before they felt they knew enough to justify a $4K instrument.

I have no problem with people spending more money to get the instrument they really want, i just wanted to remark that you don't have to spend a lot of money before you can start playing music.

[ohohman]

Quote: giannaviolins

"This would be a loosing proposition. Wholesale for case and bow of reasonable quality would be more than $100. Not to mention wood, strings, bridge, fittings adding to that."


Yes,it would indeed be a losing proposition under ordinary circumstances. This luthier is subsidized by a grant if I remember correctly from my conversation with him. I'm certainly no expert, but these were good looking and sounding fiddles. I agree that the case and bow together would exceed the asking price of the package.

[jessboo]

as one can see there are as many opinians on what is a good fiddle as there are fiddles. the majoraty of the fiddle comunity buys buy sound.only 1and1/2 or 2% of the comunity knows the right way to buy a fiddle. Steve is one of these and I asome wayward fiddler is too. You don't buy a fiddle BY sound. you buy it by the workmanship and the quality on how its was built! I watched fiddles sell between 10 or 12 dealers and never be strung up. sound was the last thing that was ever worried about. but you'll talk to a player at a BG fest and he'll be playing What Steve classifies as a below $250 fiddle and to him its the best sounding fiddle that ever made. changes are Steve will be right that fiddle will be a of lesser quality and not worth wasting your time with. it really is easier buying mandolins. take a player with you when shopping for a fiddle their opinian will be a great help when trying to find that speaks to you. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Roydw3]

What about a beginner violin like this one...I too have been thinking about getting one to play around on and to let my kids play with...is this worth getting

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/BEWARE-OF-JUNK-VIOLINS-NEW-4-4-STEIN-VIOLIN-VIOLINS_W0QQitemZ7362144996QQcategoryZ10180QQt
cZphotoQQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/BEWARE-....iewItem</a>

[Stephen Perry]

I don't particularly like the archings. Looks like high-gloss sprayed on finish. Generally these type of things have marginal bows (I have a big stack of them for giveaways to kids). Case isn't anything to write home about. This instrument has ebony where it belongs, although I'd rather see less rare wood used at this level. Might be OK if set up. I would count on fingerboard planing, nut recutting, some peg work, recut or replace sounpost, recut or replac bridge, replace strings.

I'm not impressed by the multiple points and the "others are crooks" statements. Also, nobody is going to imitate these instruments!

"Does the violin have the bridge set up, and is it ready to play?"

Having the bridge set up hardly means the violin is ready to play on!

"Does the violin have a tag inside with the name and serial number proving it's not a cheap knock off?"

Hmmm. I can print labels all day and stick them in. Bogus statement.

"Does the violin have ebony fingerbard, ebony pegs, ebony chinrest and an ebony tailpiece?"

Boxwood, almond etc fittings. Fine ebony v. junk ebony. Fiddlers usually prefer a composite tailpiece with built in fine tuners, a good one, like a Wittner.

"Does the violin have four fine tuners?"

Mine doesn't, and it is much much better than his.

"Is the violin made of hand carved and select spruce tops & maple back with the finish hand rubbed by a master Luthier?"

Almost all are "hand carved" - best way to do things in cheap parts of the world. What does "select" mean? I suspect they select the wood off the top of the stack. A decent top costs $20 and up. The back shown isn't flamed or anything. My concern here wouldn't be "select" but "aged."

"Does it come with a quality Brazilwood bow with an ebony frog and unbleached white horsehair?"

A quality brazilwood bow will run $150. One can get into something fairly nice at that price point. Plenty of fiddlers arrive here and buy $400 bows. To my surprise. We can't see the frog here, can't even tell if fully lined or half lined. Generally these bows are playable, that's all I can say about them.

"Is the case a plush lightweight hard case or a cheap featherweight case?"

This one I would tend to lump in the second category.

"Does the violin have an inlaid purfling or is it hand painted on and then lacquer sealed?"

Hmm. Lots of junk has inlaid purfling. Some fine antique violins don't. Doesn't seem a distinguishing feature.


But what do I know, I just make the things, set up many dozens of good ones, and do a great deal of acoustical work on them. Maybe this guy has a great product.

Does look like one gets lots for the money, but the setup is unlikely to be there. No free lunch. Want to try some good violins? Come visit.

[jim simpson]

Is a string upgrade as important as a good bow? If so, what brands/type?
When can one expect a new bow to be rosin'd in enough?
Thanks,
Jim

[Lane Pryce]

Jim I reccomend D'darrio med gauge helicores or the Infield Reds. I always perfered the darker rosins because of their smoothness. The thing to worry about with bows and rosin is getting too much on the hair. When I purchased new bows the sellers always gave the hair a good dusting with rosin and had it worked in pretty good. If you are pulling consistant tone with the bow then there is sufficient rosin on the hair. If the tone starts strong and diminishes and you see an accumulation of rosin on the strings then you have too much. Wipe down your strings and the bow hair with a clean cotton clot. Avoid touching the hair with your fingers. The other alternative is to take the bow outside and give a good swift swing to clear the excess rosin. Lp


One more thing. Every word Steve wrote in the previous post is something to be taken to heart. If one doesn't know anything about fiddles he/she can literally get taken!
It always pays to know who you are dealing with and avoid xBay like you would someone with a gastrointestinal virus! Lp

[mandomick]

I'm thinking of learning fiddle in addition to mandolin. Looks like a lot of junk on e-bay out there. Anyone have some advice on brands or sources for something half-way decent? Thanks
2 fiddle sites with tons of info are Fiddle Forum and Fiddle Fork Online. Lots of fiddlers willing to share their knowledge, check them out.

[DryBones]

What about a beginner violin like this one...I too have been thinking about getting one to play around on and to let my kids play with...is this worth getting

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/BEWARE-OF-JUNK-VIOLINS-NEW-4-4-STEIN-VIOLIN-VIOLINS_W0QQitemZ7362144996QQcategoryZ10180QQt

cZphotoQQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/BEWARE-....iewItem</a>
they have a lefty! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[soyAnarchisto]

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is with buying a fiddle based on sound. I could understand wanting decent quality - but they should go together - and if you can get comparable sound out of a cheaper instrument - that's "value" and a very good thing.

I'm not a fiddle player however.

Do you know what is the difference between a fiddle and a violin?






Nobody cares when you spill beer on a fiddle!

[Stephen Perry]

Nobody cares if the beer spills on a fiddle.

"Sound" is so general as to be meaningless, from my perspective, outside of the blaring obvious aspects. Setup has so much to do with the issue, too.