PDA

View Full Version : ear training



salmonflavor
Oct-30-2005, 7:25pm
I've just begun playing. I have the basic knowledge of scales and chords and can read dots.

BUT!! Having read a lot of posts on this site, I followed one of the links to a site with ear training, http://www.8notes.com/school....n.html. (http://www.8notes.com/school/theory/musictheory/files/trainers/html/id92_en.html.)

I turned off 8 of the chord types, just checking to make sure I could distinguish major from minor. I set the page to only play in root position, no inversions. (as I said I had basic knowledge, no sophisticated stuff,ie, extended chords.)

I was extremely disappointed to find out how bad my ear was.

Out of 148 tries, I scored 73%
Out of another 158 tries, I scored 66%

There's a thing you can click on that says "mode". I thought this had to do with scale modes. No. It means the chord will be arpeggiated.

When I had the chords arpeggiated, suddenly I was 100% correct, always.

Does this mean there's hope? I can't understand why I can't consistantly distinguish major from minor.
I think I tried to learn on mandolin by strumming, say, D, then Dmin. I think I was fooled into thinking that if I hear a drop in tone of the topmost tone, that must be minor.

But that's just an excuse. I hear a certain "brightness" in major, but clearly I can't hear it consistently. My best score was a 73%. One could get 50% by guessing, with the speakers off.

So I'm above the level obtained from guessing, but not high enough to show any great ability.

Why can I distinguish major from minor when the chord is arpeggiated, but not when the chord is sounded all notes simultaneously?

I fear that I may have detected a fatal flaw in my ear. If this is so, it might be better to know this now, before any more time/money is spent.

Shouldn't a person with musical ability be able to discern major from minor without a problem?

Some things are arrived at by hard work, some are only arrived at by TALENT and hard work.

Is this inability to hear the difference between major and minor a very bad sign? I don't know.

You can't teach a deaf person to distinguish pitches, nor can you teach a colorblind person to distinguish colors.

Am I in a hopeless position? I would rather know now than later.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

John Flynn
Oct-30-2005, 7:45pm
I am not an expert, just "a pilgrim on the path" like you. There are a few things I have come to believe about ear training.

1. If you can recognize basic tunes, like "happy birthday," and hum them, and you can pass an audiology test at your doctor's, you have the basic talent to train your ear. The rest is all hard work.

2. Everyone's ear learns differently. I know people who have perfect pitch, but who have a hard time learning a tune. I know people who can pick up melodies, but have a hard time with chords, and vice versa.

3. Getting anxious about your abilities in this area is counter-productive. A lot of it is what I call, "Giving yourself permission to hear," that is, saying to yourself, "I WILL get this, but I have to really listen and go through some trial and error first."

4. Majors sound bright and strong. Minors sound dark and somewhat sad. BTW, it is not necessarily the "top tone" you need to listen for, as you say in your post. That is just a function of the chord inversion. With an uninverted chord, it is the middle tone, the third, that is different between major and minor. Perhaps you are listening for the wrong thing. It is the total sound of the chord that makes it major or minor.

I got a lot of help from a DVD called, "The Formula of Music" by Dan Huckabee. He goes through all of this and really takes it down to basics for the beginner. If you really work hard through his DVD and then can't get it, maybe you have a problem. But I doubt you will have a problem. BTW, if you get Dan's DVD, it is really useful to have some kind of piano-type keyboard handy when you go through it. It can be anything, even a kid's electronic keyboard. The DVD is for all instruments, but he uses the keyboard in some of the exercises and you will get more out of the DVD if you have one.

salmonflavor
Oct-30-2005, 7:50pm
In fact, they were selling a 37 key keyboard for $10, which I just got. I'll look into the DVD. Thanks.

jmcgann
Oct-30-2005, 8:35pm
salmonflavor- hang in there! It gets easier the longer you do it- like anything else. Hard work often gets a person farther than talent, believe it or not. The word 'talent' is really overused. I consider myself modestly talented but a very hard worker- being stubborn is a great asset to a musician! :cool:

John Flynn
Oct-30-2005, 10:26pm
I just realized the DVD is actually called "Understanding the Formula of Music" and Janet Davis Music lists it here:
http://www.janetdavismusic.com/v-music.html

Peter Hackman
Oct-31-2005, 3:50am
No, you're not a hopeless case. Identifying arpeggiated
chords is more difficult to some of us. Maybe
you're too tense about *testing* your ear.

A more
relaxed kind of exercise is playing along with records,
first on simple tunes with sparse chord changes, then on denser ones.



It's more fun, and probably quicker,
as you're dealing with *music* all the time.

Mark Robertson-Tessi
Oct-31-2005, 6:15pm
sf,

the link didn't work, so i couldn't check out the trainer, but most of those online trainers sound pretty bad. The sounds that generate the pitches are computer sounds and are ringy and generally are hard to discern when sounded together. Again, I heard not the site in question. But some other trainers people mentioned before were like that, and i found them useless.

When arpeggiated, it is easier to hear which notes are actually sounded, since they are not interfering with each other in a bad, computer-like way.

I suggest having a friend who plays an instrument play some chords for you, and try it.

Cheers,
Mark RT

salmonflavor
Nov-01-2005, 10:41am
I'm the one who started this topic-
I think maybe things aren't that bad. Somewhere else on this forum I seem to recall someone else also mentioning poor sound quality of online trainers.
I quit practicing for a few days, but I'm going back to it. Better to take a break than quit.
As a newbie, I find it discouraging how much of mandolin is geared towards bluegrass. There's nothing really wrong with bluegrass, it just isn't my style.

It was suggested that I look into Huckabee's "the Formula of Music". I'm sure this is a great suggestion, and I did look into it.

BUT- I'm not ready to go to DVD, and I don't want to buy anymore VHS tapes. It is possible that janetDavisMusic or others may still have VHS versions.

I've seen previews of some of the bluegrass instructional tapes and I'm appalled. Besides the fact that I'm not a bluegrass fanatic, the tapes seem like such a waste. Watching someone else strum and finger frets is of little use. Video adds so little, it could #have been put on a CD.

I have the 3 books in Greg Horne's series. They look appropriate to me.

I'm thinking that I could get some ear training on CD. I know there's a 2 CD series just for mando-Mandolin Ear Training Course. This involves duplicating licks and transposition.

Amazon also has "Ear Training:One Note Beginning Level". It looks like it might be appropriate, I don't know. Any opinions?

If there's some overwhelming reason that I should get Huckabee's tape, maybe I will.

John Flynn
Nov-01-2005, 11:46am
salmonflavor:

Keep in mind that DVDs may play on your computer. I agree with you on a lot of video instruction, but in the case of the "Formula" DVD, Dan H.'s explanations are very visual using the keyboard, so I think with his method it's essential. The great thing about the DVD is that you can go right back to individual scenes you want and not have to do a lot rewinding and fast forwarding. Good luck in your quest.

Pete Martin
Nov-01-2005, 12:03pm
Hearing a number of notes together and individually is different. Just keep after it, do ear training every day and your ear will improve.

Best of luck.

cumin
Nov-01-2005, 4:40pm
I tried the Ear Training One Note Beginning Level and did not like it at all. The author has a website full of questions and answers; very nice really. But the cd is lifeless; I remember it to be just a chord cadence to set the key ©, then a pair of notes. Singing while playing scales and arpeggios (sing the note, then play it) is a practice i like, as well as picking out happy birthday, silent night, etc. on the mando by ear. Christmas carols are like intro to music theory in this regard.

I just got the mando ear training cd set and I think it is pretty good. I like ear training, it is like primordial music, even before technique. After a good ear training session, I feel limbered up, and music sort of pours out of me; I am humming tunes, inventing licks, finding new sounds on my mando. After trying the first session of the ear training mando cd, I played a scale, and it had music in it that surprised me!

I went through a long phase of collecting instructional material for mandolin some years ago; ultimately that didn't help me. I am starting over again on mandolin, and going slow on getting material (printing PDFs from mandolincafe doesn't count :-)). I have the Greg Horne Book I, and I love it. I am not letting myself get the next one till I finish the first one, but it is going well. It reminds me of an Al DiMeola guitar method book that I devoured while learning guitar; a challenging pace, not too challenging.

OdnamNool
Nov-03-2005, 6:33am
Well, when you hear a chord, it's all together... one sound... whereas in an arpeggiated chord, you hear the notes individually. So, it makes sense to me that it's easier to distinguish minor in an arpeggiated chord... After all, you can distinguish each note individually.

I too, have had questions involving minor chords. My friend says, "listen." So I do.

I am not fond of long, drawn-out posts... so, I'll try to shorten this up...

I'm thinking it might be a better approach to work on intervals first, before tackling the chord thing. Ya know... think of a song... say, Some......where! (over the rainbow) Now think of that familiar, "Some....where!" It's an octive. Another example... "Twinke, twinkle." It's a 5th. And so on... if that makes sense, and it probably doesn't....

My point is, relate the different intervals to familiar songs that you know... Maria! Ma....ri.... (tritone!) uh! I once...knew a girl... named... and so on...

GTison
Nov-08-2005, 7:22pm
Do you have a list of these you use for all of them?

jmcgann
Nov-08-2005, 7:50pm
Yeah, the trick of a melody to relate to the interval is great; my first theory class used it and it stuck with me until i could hear them on their own. All this stuff is like learning a language- you just have to hang with it and use it every day until it is part of your DNA. It will happen if you stick with it.

OdnamNool
Nov-10-2005, 6:49am
Do you have a list of these you use for all of them?
Is your question refering to me?

If so...nope... no list.

But if you want one, let me know... I'll come up with one...