Top Fifty-plus Reasons [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

mandocrucian

Oct-29-2005, 9:39am

...Why mandolin players take up guitar
(alphabetical order)

1. Duane Allman
2. Junior Barnard (Bob Will & Texas Playboys)
3. Jeff Beck
4. Chuck Berry
5. Dan Ar Bras (Alan Stivell)
6. Paul Burlison (Johnny Burnette Rock N Roll Trio)
7. James Burton
8. Randy California (Spirit)
9. Martin Carthy (solo, Steeleye Span, Albion Country Band, Waterson-Carthy)
10. John Cipollina (Quicksilver Messenger Service, Copperhead, Raven)

11. Eric Clapton
12. Charlie Christian
13. Eddie Cochran
14. Ry Cooder
15. Steve Cropper
16. Jerry Donahue (Hellecasters, Fairport Convention)
17. Nick Drake
18. Dave Edmunds
19. Robert Fripp (King Crimson)
20. Rory Gallagher

21. Jerry Garcia (Grateful Dead)
22. Dick Gaughan (solo, Five Hand Reel)
23. Billy Gibbons (ZZ Top)
24. David Gilmour (Pink Floyd)
25. Peter Green (original Fleetwood Mac)
26. Jimi Hendrix
27. John Lee Hooker
28. Eric Johnson
29. BB King
30. Mark Knopfler (Dire Straits, Notting Hillbilies)

31. Albert Lee
32. David Lindley (El Rayo X, Jackson Browne)
33. John Martyn
34. Curtis Mayfield
35. Tony McPhee (Groundhogs)
36. Wes Montgomery
37. Jimmy Page (Led Zep)
38. John Renbourn (Pentangle, solo)
39. Don Rich (Buck Owens & the Buckaroos)
40. Don "Buck Dharma" Roesser (Blue Oyster Cult)

41. Carlos Santana
42. Brian Setzer (Stray Cats)
43. Steven Stills
44. Richard Thompson (Fairport Convention, solo)
45. Pete Townsend
46. Robin Trower
47. Stevie Ray Vaughan
48. T-Bone Walker
49. Joe Walsh (James Gang, Eagles, solo)
50. Muddy Waters

51. Clarence White (Nashvile West, Byrds electric, Kentucky Colonels, Muleskinner)
52. James Calvin Wilsey (early Chris Isaak albums including the song "Wicked Game")
53. Howlin Wolf (& Hubert Sumlin)
54. Link Wray
55. Angus Young & Malcom Young (AC/DC)
56. Neil Young
57. Frank Zappa

chirorehab

Oct-29-2005, 9:46am

Trey Anastasio.... (Phish)

mikeomando

Oct-29-2005, 10:08am

court-ordered pre-frontal lobotomy...

fangsdaddy

Oct-29-2005, 11:44am

thurston moore
d. boon
tom verlaine
tony iommi

mandocrucian

Oct-29-2005, 12:06pm

court-ordered pre-frontal lobotomy...

And this is coming from a guy who is into playing blues guitar licks on the electric mando (if memory serves correct)?....... (and who has the tag-line of "For the last time, it's not a ukelele..." to boot)

Now, if I'd posted in the Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants area, I'd expect this sort of comment, but if you look again, you'll notice it is the Rock, Folk Rock, Roots Rock, Rockabilly section.

So what particularly is so "lobotomizing" about the idea of no longer, continually, beating your skull against a wall (now that'll give you a lobotomy) trying to give that "ukelele" some legitimacy or credibility somewhere beyond the haybales where it doesn't have much of either?
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

NH

"I see the light....and the light is very bright!" - Michael Hurley, back cover of the Blue Navigator album jacket.

Ken Sager

Oct-29-2005, 12:12pm

This thread should be titled Why ANYBODY takes up guitar.

John Flynn

Oct-29-2005, 1:22pm

"Get your money for nothin' and your chicks for free."

jmkatcher

Oct-29-2005, 2:08pm

So what particularly is so "lobotomizing" about the idea of no longer, continually, beating your skull against a wall (now that'll give you a lobotomy) trying to give that "ukelele" some legitimacy or credibility somewhere beyond the haybales where it doesn't have much of either?

Isn't legitimacy or credibility what you make of it? It's a shame there's not more rock mandolin, but that doesn't stop me from continuing to enjoy playing it. I like to think that the (e)mando sound is persuasive to those who aren't familiar with it. I've been thinking lately about picking up the electric guitar as well, but as an augmentation not a replacement. The instrument selection is sure easier over there though, and the haybale thing is not my style, so I am very sympathetic.

Best regards,
JMK

mandocrucian

Oct-29-2005, 3:06pm

Isn't legitimacy or credibility what you make of it?

No, it's what others make of it.

Hey, I like playing mando; I've done it for 30+ years. But it would be 10 times less hassle to play (out) the rock stuff in the role of a half-assed guitar player. And I'm not talking about the technical difficulty of pulling off guitar stuff on a mando neck (twice as hard as doing it on a guitar). It's having to put up with all the BS from other players who are so rigid that everything has to be done with the same instrumentation as the record, or are threatened by another instrument encroaching on their "turf".

Or players of genres (where mando is a mainstay) who have a problem with the unholy & wayward musical choices being played on one of "their" instruments, and is dismissed on those grounds.

Well, I'm finally cured of any irrational allegiance to any particular instrument. I may as well play all those guitar lines on a guitar (or viola, or flute) instead of a mando and save myself a lot of hassle and grief. In retrospect, should have done it 15 years ago. Too damn stubborn I guess, but I've finally wised up.

NH

(Too bad Monroe never made the switch to over fiddle, or guitar, since that was what he evidentally wanted to play in the first place. Stayed with the mando for spite cause that was what he got stuck with by default when he was a kid. Guess he never could get past that trauma.... all his fiddle players that worked for him said he really was a fiddler at heart.)

mad dawg

Oct-29-2005, 3:10pm

Nice list, and a special shout-out for the following nominees:
Allman
Cooder
Lindley
Fripp
Gibbons
Gilmour (Can you think of an unmemorable Gilmour solo? I think not!)
Zappa, and his SG
Page
Stevie Ray

Plus, I would like to offer the following additions to the list:
Bonnie Raitt, for her melodic slide work
Tommy Bolin (RIP; worked with Zephyr, Moxy, post-Walsh James Gang, post-Blackmore Deep Purple, and two great solo albums)
Marc Bolan (RIP; T Rex)
Adrian Belew (King Crimson, solo artist, David Bowie)
Terry Kath (RIP; original Chicago guitarist, who could make that SG soar)
Jack Johnson (he might not go down in history as a great guitarist, but I love his rythmic style -- makes me want to head down to the beach with a beater 6-string for an all-night Koom Buy Yah (sp.) session with friends)

SternART

Oct-29-2005, 4:25pm

Jorma Kaukonen could certainly be added to this esteemed list.

mikeomando

Oct-29-2005, 4:44pm

Just for the record, I WAS JOKING. I'd play guitar if I could. It was sorta like a banjo joke. I'm sorry if it ticked anyone off. If I could play as well as Niles I'd be out on the road instead of lurking around here. Oh, and it kind of had a halloween thing too. Sorta.
If I could add Scotty Moore to the list (since James Burton is on there), in all seriousness, I would.

Nathan Sanders

Oct-29-2005, 4:51pm

Ok..so why do guitar players take up mandolin? I played guitar long before mandolin. And, also, Doc Watson should be on the list. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

mikeomando

Oct-29-2005, 4:54pm

Oh yeah, Billy Zoom (X)

Dave Gumbart

Oct-29-2005, 5:27pm

A couple of Steves...
Steve Morse
Steve Ferguson (original guitarist for NRBQ, with two excellent solo discs in recent years, Jack Salmon With Derby Sauce and Mama U-Seapa. And speaking of the Q, Al Anderson is no slouch himself)

David Hidalgo (Los Lobos)
Danny Gatton
my friend Gary

bjc

Oct-29-2005, 6:05pm

Didn't see Randy Rhodes or Dimebag Darrell? Maybe too metal...good topic though...

John Rosett

Oct-30-2005, 2:06pm

niles, it pleases me no end to see that you put junior barnard at the number 2 spot on your list. what a great and wild guitarist he was, and certainly one of the unsung fathers of rock guitar.
i'm assuming that you didn't mention django because this is a "rock guitar" discussion. how about danny gatton, bill kirchen, and redd volkert?

TeleMark

Oct-30-2005, 5:23pm

A couple of Steves...
Steve Morse
Steve Ferguson (original guitarist for NRBQ, with two excellent solo discs in recent years, Jack Salmon With Derby Sauce and Mama U-Seapa. And speaking of the Q, Al Anderson is no slouch himself)
Another Steve: Vai. Anybody who can impress Zappa has to have some validity. See also: Mike Kennealy, Warren Cuccurillo, etc...

Also:

Joe Satriani
John Petrucci

ira

Oct-31-2005, 9:13am

wow- was not expecting such an angry/bitter thread. to each their own- i wish you well, but should we now refer to you as guitarcrucian.

as for my own opinion (and yes, once again, this is opinion), though i love the playing of all of those guys, and yes it is different trying to play many of their tunes on mando, and also yes, i might pick up the 6 string at somepoint for fun. i will keep playing rock on my mando, and even if i play those gentlemen's tunes, i wont try to sound like them. you are correct imho niles in that if you are trying to sound like a guitar, pick up the instrument and play it. if you are trying to play songs you like and like the sound of a mando in that tune, sometimes filling the role of the guitar, even if it doesn't sound just like it, then play the tunes and enjoy!

when i play a rock or pop tune-e.g., steve miller "the joker" i play that initial riff, same notes as the orig, but i'm not trying to sound like a guitar or bass, just playing the tune, and it sounds good, just different- same role different sound. if i wanted to sound just like the album as i said- i'd get that instrument.

peace all,ira

Dave Caulkins

Oct-31-2005, 11:33am

Heh,

I think I went the wrong (right?) direction for this thread, as I played guitar for almost 15 years before mandolin... My direction on the mandolin has sent me back to guitar more than once... I find it easier to convert guitar licks to mando by actually learning the guitar part first...

Dave

RolandTumble

Oct-31-2005, 3:21pm

Lowell George....

Mandomax

Oct-31-2005, 3:39pm

Shawn Lane
Roy Buchanan
Jimmy Bryant
Joseph Spence
Joe Diorio

Ken Sager

Oct-31-2005, 3:47pm

I read in Niles' last message that he laments not sticking to guitar, that guitarists are perhaps more marketable (employable) than mandolinists, and that loyalty to any given instrument is unnecessary (if not downright counterproductive).

I can't argue with any of this, except to say that Niles has proven that quality sells, integrity counts for something, and you can make a market for yourself doing almost anything, even playing mandolin.

Guitarcrucian, indeed, Ira.

Follow your bliss,
Ken

mad dawg

Oct-31-2005, 3:55pm

Lowell George....
Good catch, Roland.

mad dawg

Oct-31-2005, 4:00pm

Ooops -- and don't forget Johnny Winter.

mandopete

Oct-31-2005, 5:06pm

Okay, was there supposed to be apoint to this thread? If so, what is it?

John Millring

Oct-31-2005, 6:15pm

You don't choose guitar...

...guitar chooses you.

It’s that wire that no one sees but draws us to the magician’s hand.

It’s the true north that mysteriously keeps our needle pointing one way.

One day we hear the jangle, the strum of an E chord, the tip-of-a-hat in a G run, or the one-man-band of a fingerstyle song and we’re never the same. We wander through life with a different song in our mind.

We notice everything guitar—-of course in sound on the radio and in recording-—but also the physical presence of the guitar. In the background scenery of a movie set, in a commercial on TV, we'll notice the guitars. If we walk into a strange place and there happens to be a guitar in the room, little else occupies our mind.

It calls our attention like an overheard conversation that sounds more interesting than the one in which we’re currently engaged. "Oh, excuse me. Did you say something?”

Maybe it’s the sound that hooks us first but almost simultaneously we’re drawn to the guitar as a work of art. Curiously, in the horizontal position we view it as a practical tool to make our music. But we view it as art in the vertical, resting on its heel, that perfect balance, that anthropomorphic symmetry. Proof? --the guitar tester’s dance-- you know the one. You’ve seen it and you’ve done it. Play a riff, a chord, a song, and as that final strum is cast…we pick it up, left hand still holding the neck, right hand on the end pin…and we do that graceful pirouette ‘til we’re face to face with the guitar and the sound it’s making. Eyes take in the beauty from peg to bridge. Then the grin…

…..Fred, meet Ginger.

James P

Nov-01-2005, 1:37am

Reader, meet writer.

If that post was a song on my iPod, I'd give it five stars. Thanks for showing us the point, John.

John Millring

Nov-01-2005, 11:39am

Thanks for showing us the point, John.
My pleasure!

Ted Eschliman

Nov-01-2005, 11:57am

Estaban (http://www.estabanguitar.com/)...

Dave Caulkins

Nov-01-2005, 12:08pm

Ironically, up here in the north country, I find it much easier to find "work" as a mandolinist, despite my greater experience as a guitarist. There are plenty of six stringers running around, but very few mando players in my area. I usually carry both, but if I choose one it's the mandolin. Personally, I wish I came to my senses and played eight strings sooner...

Best Wishes,

Dave

mandocrucian

Nov-01-2005, 1:57pm

Okay, was there supposed to be apoint to this thread? #If so, what is it?

I think someone missed their exit. So, go back up one and take a right, which should take you to towards Rosine, Nashville, Bug Tussle, Hootersville ....... and, if you're still trying to get there, to Little Rock.

AlanN

Nov-01-2005, 2:06pm

Michael Bloomfield
The Stones' Mick Taylor

Christian McKee

Nov-02-2005, 1:06am

Side-TRACKED!

I love my electric mandolin. LOVE it. I love to play over-driven trucker licks, and flip on the envelope filter during a Grateful Dead tune, but even I admit, it's not a guitar. There are times when the ears make a simple and polite request for the unique sound of that six stringed instrument not-quite-tuned-in-fourths.

Look, we're not guitarists, and we're never going to be. Our instruments (even when we play solid-body four, five or six stringers) are just never going to sound like that, and frankly, I'm ok with that. I listen to a *lot* of rock guitarists (I can't seem to get Derek Trucks out of my cd player right now,) but what we do is just a little bit different. Most of us could have just as easily started on the guitar, instead of mandolin! I happened to pick up the mandolin specifically because I didn't want to be another long-haired guy with a guitar.

My sister is a professional actress, and she loves to remind me that the true test of an actor's ability is not how crazy they can make their character, but instead, how much like their own personality they can make their character, without crossing the line. That's what many of us are aiming for here! Good music is just good music, no matter the instrument on which it's played. I don't think we really do ourselves any favors to constantly compare ourselves to people who can't play a mandolin! We're already listening and learning (presumably) to what they recorded and left behind, trying to BE that without BEING that is just plain silly. The mandolin is dead, long live the mandolin!

Christian

P.S. Mandocrucian, you're clearly a gifted instrumentalist, period. Stop sweating the BS that 'guys in bands,' as opposed to 'musicians' lay on you. If it's really about employment, just go out for some country bands, you'll find *plenty* of work anywhere in the country, guaranteed.

ira

Nov-02-2005, 9:05am

it is a matter though of what you want to play. i love rock n roll, and therefore have listened to and love many guitarists, i also love the sound of many bassists, keyboard players, etc... i love to play many of their tunes, but if i truly wanted to recreate their sound, i would pick up one of their instruments. it is all about what you are looking for. i've been playing willie and the handjive in 'a' and the little slide up to the a 2-finger a chord on the mando rings beautifully for me, but it is not going to sound just like one of the many guitarists who play it (for me, most notably -clapton). if i want his sound- get me a guitar and i'll figure it out. i love the song and love my mando.

but it is similar to any instrumentalist. if i were a guitarist, and wanted to play the bassline on boris the spider by the who (wow, wonder what made that synapse pop-haven't heard it in years), i could play the notes, but it wouldn't sound just like a bass.
ok- my dead horse of a point is beaten!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

mandopete

Nov-02-2005, 10:33am

Top 50+ Reasons That Mandolin Players Take Up Guitar?

Sorry, I still don't get it. #But I'll be happy to meet you at Sam Drucker's General Store if'n ya'll wanna talk 'bout it.

I hate to say this, but this all sounds quite bitter. If it's about the limitations of playing mandolin in a rock music context - get over it, it's in your head. And if others don't dig it, find someone who does.

If I'm missing the point please illuminate me.

John Millring

Nov-02-2005, 11:20am

wow, mandopete,

Thanks for the allusions to bugtussle. Now I'll have the image of Bobby, Betty & Billie Jo in the water tower running around my brain all day...

....which, while not being an unpleasnt thing to have bouncing around my head, may hinder my ability to get much done.

Uncle Joe did nothing all day......and he was family fergoshsakes!

picksnbits

Nov-02-2005, 11:22am

This is obviously a joke, guys. Nobody in their right mind would give up mandolin for guitar.

And the reason proposed for doing it is so that you can be part of a bigger herd?

mad dawg

Nov-02-2005, 11:45am

Estaban (http://www.estabanguitar.com/)...
Estaban must fast becoming a household name: first I saw him in one of those Gieco Insurance commericals (he mysteriously appeared, guitar in hand, to help a garage band with a sucky lead guitarist save money on car insurance), and now he is referenced in a MC discussion thread! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Moose

Nov-02-2005, 12:14pm

Ah! "Estaban"!! - a dead-ringer for ZORRO!! - may be ZORRO"S alter-ego...!?(and no, I never heard of this "world-renowned" guitarist either...!!??## - that is 'till all the TV/QVC/..etc.)- He usually plays the same...riffs over/over. That tells me someth'in.. Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

GVD

Nov-02-2005, 8:26pm

mandopete Posted

I hate to say this, but this all sounds quite bitter. If it's about the limitations of playing mandolin in a rock music context - get over it, it's in your head. #And if others don't dig it, find someone who does.

If I'm missing the point please illuminate me.

If you really want to be illuminated I suggest you put your money where your mouth is and go through one of Nile's Mando Bootcamps. You'll quickly find that the only limitations of playing mandolin in a rock music context or any other context for that matter are the ones in your/our heads not Niles. He will absolutley blow your mind with what the Mando is capable of. I've never before or since heard anyone capture the true essence of a Jimmy Hendrix or Stevie Ray Vaughn etc. solo on the mando like Niles can. We all have a tendency to assume you can't do this or that on the mando just because we haven't heard anyone else do it before. Niles looks at it just the opposite and assumes if it's been done on another instrument it can be done the mandolin too and then figures out how to do it. Heck he can even make a mando sound like a Hammond B3 organ.

GVD

mandopete

Nov-03-2005, 12:36pm

Well, I'm finally cured of any irrational allegiance to any particular instrument. I may as well play all those guitar lines on a guitar (or viola, or flute) instead of a mando and save myself a lot of hassle and grief. In retrospect, should have done it 15 years ago. Too damn stubborn I guess, but I've finally wised up.

NH
Okay, here's the comment I'm not sure I understand.

Niles - care to comment?

arbarnhart

Nov-03-2005, 1:05pm

I have a neighbor who can play anything. I don't mean he has learned to play everything; it's more like music is just in his veins and he can piddle around and figure out how to get the right sound out of whatever you give him. He messed around with my mando one night and within a few minutes he could play it better than me. I would love to be able to do that, but it isn't very likely. So I am working on understanding this instrument (actually, I just picked up a tenor guitar also and I am expanding my horizons to other 5th tuned string instruments) well enough to be able to play almost anything on it. I like the mando and I think it is a good choice for me for reasons both practical and personal. I might poke good natured fun at banjo players sometimes, but that's a pretty cool instrument also. So are drums, keyboards (which I can sort of play) and in fact I like just about all instruments. My choice of instrument isn't any better or worse than the next person's. A little good natured ribbing between camps is fun, but I hope no one takes it too seriously.

dan@kins

Nov-03-2005, 3:41pm

Please add Robbie Robertson to the list.. . .

250sc

Nov-04-2005, 1:32pm

Interesting thread though I'm not sure I understand where mandocrucian is coming from.

His first post points out great guitar players that may have inspired mando players to play guitar but his second post sounds really frustrated. I hope not but that's the way it read to me. (Niles, if your stressing, hang in there, it will pass.)

Personally, I don't think the instrument is anything more that a tool used to express oneself and to help in personal growth, not to mention a lovely way to pass the time. The music is the important part, not the instrument.

arbarnhart mentions his neighbor who can express himself musically on any tool that he picks up. My older brother is the same way. He doesn't consider himself a musician at all. He is just creative in everything he does.

The only common thing I see in all of the players mentioned in this thread is they are taking a tool used by millions of people and expressing themselves more elequintly than most.

mandopete

Nov-04-2005, 2:36pm

I'm scratching my head too.

Whenever I get the feeling that the mandolin is limited I just listen to people like Chris Thile and Mike Marshall and I see those limitations are mine (not the instrument).

And while I prefer bluegrass music, I can certainly appreciate and have listened to virtually all genres of music. #I don't see any genre that would preclude a mandolin.

Now if this list is about guitar players that have influenced my mandolin playing, well that list would be all of them. Like many here I started on the guitar and still play it in equal share to the mandolin. And I guess since I'm mostly into bluegrass, I'll list mine here:

Tony Rice
Scott Nygaard
Bryan Sutton
Slavek Hanzlik
Charles Sawtelle
Jim Hurst

...and from some other genres:

John McLaughlin
Jeff Beck
Steve Hackett
Pat Metheny
Andy Summers
Robert Fripp
Mike Bloomfield

mandocrucian

Nov-04-2005, 3:23pm

This topic was put up in response to another Top Ten Reasons...Why guitar players take up mandolin (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=18;t=28874).

I keep hearing the "better to rule in hell than serve in heaven" type reasoning. Better to be the best mandolin player (even if mediocre) than to be another "average guitar picker" in your locale. It's something which can be expressed in two words.... "B-i-g #F-i-s-h".

I'd be plenty happy playing "lead guitar" on my mandos: 8-string or low-tuned-5. But simply put, there are forms of instrument apartheid (or caste systems) out there. But to be pragmatic about it all, I'd get a lot less resistance playing the stuff I like by showing up with a guitar. (Just think how much more successful Charley Pride would have been given a different shading.)

And it's not about playing the 'rock mandolin' parts for Maggie Mae etc. That's OK, but I also want to be doing a lot of Peter Green, or Robin Trower, or Cipollina type stuff. #

It's just gonna be easier overall for me to adapt to the prejudices of others than to try to change their viewpoints. Musical content trumps the particular instrument (tool) used to play it. And guess what I found out....all that Hendrix and other guitar stuff I really had to work extremely hard to do on mando.... hey, that stuff lays out so much easier on the guitar neck. Like taking the ankle weights off and doing the workout.

I don't care about being the Big Fish; I just want to surf on the groove of a good rhythm section and trance out. That's more important than how many strings my board has on it. It ain't a contest for alpha male.

(Course, it could be a whole lot worse.... how many female lead guitarists do you see out there?)

But the intrument I've been putting time in on the most for the past month or 6 weeks is flute. Have no idea how long it'll take to get enough technique to BS my way through 12-bar blues (well, no more than 6 months). I'd hire a flute player if there were any around into the early Tull typestuff. But since there isn't, maybe I'll have to be the one standing on one leg.

Niles Hokkanen

Eric F.

Nov-04-2005, 3:33pm

Ah, thanks for the explanation, Niles.

I'll add one more guitarist then: Richard Lloyd. He's a monster.

picksnbits

Nov-04-2005, 4:21pm

So, what ARE the top 50 reasons mandolin players take up the flute?

A quote from Mike Compton's web site "Play the music, not the instrument." ~Author Unknown

Seems like that quote should apply here, though I'm not really sure how.

250sc

Nov-04-2005, 4:30pm

I don't have to consider that whole big fish thing since this polywog doesn't leave the weed beds very often. Besides, when I did play out and travel around my pond I found that there are great players everywhere that nobody knows about.

I think the biggest problem mandocrucian is going to bump into in achieving his goal of surfing "on the groove of a good rhythm section and tranceing out." is that mandolin, in any context other than BG, celtic, classic or folk is going to be considered a novelty instrument. On the other hand there are players who are bucking the standards and playing conch and steel drum in jazz bands and peddle steel in gosple and R&B. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

RolandTumble

Nov-04-2005, 4:37pm

(Course, it could be a whole lot worse.... how many female lead guitarists do you see out there?)
Lita Ford
Bonnie Raitt
The (Amazing? Incredible? Self-aggrandizing?) Kat

Must be more, but no other names pop into my fuzzy conciousness....

mandopete

Nov-04-2005, 4:51pm

Okay, now I think I get it....

Top 10 Reasons Mandolin Players Take Up Guitar:

#10...Drop D tuning
#9....Campfire Sing-A-Long's
#8....Covers up a "beer belly"
#7....Feedback (on electrics only)
#6....Whammy-bars
#5....Eb7b9b11b13+
#4....The chicks, the chicks, the chicks!
#3....Playing "fingerstyle"
#2....Fingers are just plain too big for them itty-bitty necks

..........and the #1 reason:

#1....So I can use a CAPO!

RolandTumble

Nov-04-2005, 4:51pm

On another note, consider that Mr. Anderson's flute chops have never been "good" (at least not on record), despite being perfect for the music he's making. Six months should give you a decent start. Then, if you stick with it, you'll have a lifetime of improvement ahead of you--just like any other instrument....

(Flute was my grade school instrument. After (too many) years away, I've recently been spending about half my music-making time with a wind-controlled synth, and find I have to overcome some of the flute habits. Ah, well...).

mandocrucian

Nov-04-2005, 10:45pm

On another note, consider that Mr. Anderson's flute chops have never been "good" (at least not on record), despite being perfect for the music he's making.

Well, it was certainly on the raw side on the earliest records; but he seems to be playing fairly well in the past ten years, though I admit I don't know enough about the instrument to be a good judge. #However, it's still the early Tull records (This Was, Stand Up, Benefit, Living In The Past, Aqualung) that I like the most.

I don't know about the term "good" in terms of the chops - I have some problems with it. It's no secret what a lot of classical violinists think of the "chops" of "fiddle players". #It's all wrong - wrong tone, bad intonation, wrong bowings etc. etc. etc. Doesn't meet the classical aesthetic ("my way or the highway"). #Doesn't matter that when they take a shot at fiddling, it's usually awful.

So I imagine that Anderson's overblowing and/or singing through the instrument causes some classical ears to cringe. #But my take on that is that he's playing the instrument like an overdriven electric blues guitar when he's doing it. There's a lot of stuff one can hit by accident, but when it's a controllable sound(s)/effect(s) that can be summoned up at will, it is a set of chops in its own right.

When I want that sour Yank Rachell slightly out-of-tune sound, I don't slightly detune the string pairs as many might do. I'm able to push (bend) the treble side of the pair into the other so they are off from each other, and play breaks with this effect, turning it on or off at will. There are times when this sound is absolutely the most appropriate one for the song. And as such, it is an advanced "extended technique", to borrow from terminology used by the wind players.

Anyway, I have no aspirations to classical flute proficiency, but whatever technical profiency I do pick up, I'll be able to exploit to the max. Might be rockabilly guitar licks or Sugarcane Harris elec violin stuff though. BB King solos might sound good. Any instrument I do pick up I want to become an extension of anything/everything I'm already playing (and for that to also work in reverse.) I am the instrument, what's in the hands at the moment is just a tool. The carpenter builds the house, not his tools. ("Try to take the pebble from my hand grasshopper."

(BTW MandoPete, you don't need the switch to guitar for your reasons #3 and #1 - just as applicable to the mandolin. On electrics... feedback and whammy-bars are great when used by the player who can control them and applies them musically.)

mandolin, in any context other than BG, celtic, classic or folk is going to be considered a novelty instrument

Yes, it's "Charley Pride syndrome. Unfortunately, there's a lot of "mandolin players" who also have the exact same view of the instrument.

NH

mandopete

Nov-07-2005, 12:02pm

Niles - seriously, good luck with flute. #FWIW, I took up the flute in high school upon hearing Ian Anderson. #I never got too far with it. #I could play a bit of Bouree and such, but woodwinds are pretty tricky. Here's a couple of other flautists I dig:

Herbie Mann
Tim Weisberg
Matt Eakle

RolandTumble

Nov-07-2005, 5:45pm

Niles:

I should've known you'd say that, and I'm actually in complete agreement with you--that's why I put "good" in quotes, and made a point of saying that it was perfect for Tull's music (I have to confess that I haven't listened to anything more recent than "Too Old...", at least not to know it).

As for extended technique, I know there's a book on the subject, specifically for flute, out there somewhere. I can't tell you title, author, publisher or whether it's even still in print. I had it out from the Portland, OR, library more than once, mourning not having a flute at the time.... Also, one of the reasons I let the flute pass into "used to" status is that it's awfully hard to make "nasty noises" on (not impossible).

mandopete:

add Eric Dolphy to that list, for my money.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled mandolin discussions....

mandopete

Nov-07-2005, 7:57pm

What mandolin discussions?

The Top 10 Reasons Mandolin Players Switch To Flute

10...No more "A-Style" vs. "F-Style" arguments
9....No strap required
8....No need to learn chords like Eb7b9b11b13
7....No need to buy strings
6....No endangered species involved
5....The chicks, the chicks, the chicks
4....Embouchure vs. Callouses
3....Looks cool standing on one leg!
2....Nobody cares who the builder is

.......and the number 1 reason:

1....It beats playing bluegrass trombone!

mandocrucian

Nov-09-2005, 10:05am

The Top 10 Reasons Mandolin Players Switch To Flute

10. #Too much trouble cleaning out the basement in order to set up the full drum kit
9. #Not enough money to buy a Hammond B-3 organ
8. #Not enough space to set up a Hammond B-3 organ
7. #For the mental workout of "mapping" the layout an unfamiliar instrument (great for the teaching perspective)
6. #Added breath control will come in useful while sparring with karate classmates who are 6'3" and/or 20 years younger
5. #Same fingering system as saxophones
4. #ultra-convenient 4"x16"x2-1/4" size of carrying case
3. #"casual Friday" attire (Aqualung) quite acceptable at gigs instead of the hassle of having to dress up in a Sunday monkey suit
2. #Total control of the tone, volume, articulation of the notes/sound (far beyond an intial pick strike) without having to use volume pedals etc.

.......and the number 1 reason:

1. #"Locomotive Breath" is a request tune I actually like (vs. "Rawhide" or "Rocky Top")

Ted Eschliman

Nov-09-2005, 10:25am

Top Ten Reasons to Switch to Bluegrass Trombone

10. Arms too long for mandolin work great for trombone slide.
9. No 4th finger pinky stretch.
8. No need to achieve "woody" chop.
7. Slide oil.
6. Tonegard can be used to prevent foreign objects being thrown into bell.
5. No more "Is that a little guitar?"
4. Teeth for trombone mouthpiece good; Toothless for banjo, better.
3. No arguing about legitimacy of a capo.
2. Bib overalls don't scratch the finish.

......and the number 1 reason:

1. Spit valve. to expel drool.

mandopete

Nov-09-2005, 11:03am

L.O.L. !

You guys are too much!

ira

Nov-09-2005, 11:55am

what, no top 10 for switching to cowbell???

kvk

Nov-09-2005, 12:17pm

what, no top 10 for switching to cowbell???

10. Bolt it to a chair and you only need one hand to play. Leaves one hand free for beer.
9. pinky, we don't need to stinkin' pinky. Just give me a gosh dern stick.
8. Anyone can make a hunk o' metal clank.
7. Rust.
6. Scrap metal to make bells is cheap.
5. You can hit any unappreciative audience members with your instrument. It might even improve the tone.
4. The heifers. the heifers. the heifers!!!
3. One note, anytime, all the time. no need to tune up.
2. You don't even need fingers to play. Just ductape the stick to one arm.
1: You can be in any band that covers Mountain's "Mississipi Queen".