Sweet little sixteenths (Grisman, i.a.)

[Peter Hackman]

Years ago I abandoned fast streams of even eights
in favor of a more varied rhythmic approach,
including rests and flurries of triplets and sixteenths
- at either end of the spectrum.

This
occured in 69 or 70 when I went back to the guitar
as my main instrument. My main inspiration
in that respect was from jazz guitarists,
especially Barney Kessel. I learned or devised various
tricks for getting these fast
passages with a minimum of effort, raking, dragging the
pick, or using combinations of down strokes and
hammerons/pulloffs.

Now that I've taken up the mandolin again I've been listening to people like David Grisman who gets
some astonishing fast and clean flurries, seemingly
without excessive effort. One example, among many,
is the calypso on his Zebra LP (I believe the title
was simply "the Island Song", in E, maybe
written off Marianne)

Always wondered whether
this simply comes from very fast alternating picking,
or if there are tricks similar to the ones guitarists
use. I often get in some ripping stuff at the
beginning or end of phrases, by crossing strings
in the right places,
but there is no
way that same technique could produce these extended
flurries - and make musical sense!

Anyone know? Are there PDF transcriptions
around of Grisman solos displaying his technique to advantage (in standard, can't read tab).

[fredfrank]

I don't know how Grisman does it, but one would think that if a person could move the right hand fast enough to play tremolo, it would just be a matter of building the speed and co-ordination of the left hand to match.

[SternART]

Some Grisman solos can be found on his web site, I think every month they change the tune.
Sometimes the solos are from other players on the CD's. Guitar, violin etc. If I'm not mistaken John
McGann does the transcriptions. Also, both Tone Poems CD's had books, Mel Bay put them
out but I think they are out of print.....I've seen them on EBAY. Tabledit on Mandozine has
numerous solos as well. Grisman's Homespun lessons stick to the heads & don't get into the solos,
so you'll need other sources for that.....but there are a lot of prime Dawg licks in the heads too.
That Homespun book is like the Dawg bible for me, I keep delving deeper as my skills improve.

[jmcgann]

yep, me again :rolleyes:

A good way to get 16ths is first to realize they are 4 notes per beat- then set the metronome nice and slow, and play 4 notes per beat. Then speed it up. Nothin' to it but to do it (of course with good tone)...

[Peter Hackman]

Of course I know that 1/16 is 1/4 of 1/4. However,
that is not at all the way I conceive of these
effects. The things I throw in on guitar
is NOT slow stuff speeded up - it's probably technically impossible to play it slow!

So my question is more about ideas, what works and why it works; that's why I was interested in transcriptions.
I find them much more rewarding than exercises and so-called
instructional material. Of course, I used to transcribe a bit myself, when I was young.

During 47 years of playing music I have tried a metronome
for only a very short period, about 22 years ago.
I was trying to do something about
my singing, which tended to rush the beat. I found it much
more difficult to follow the beat of a metronome
than a guitar although you might think the latter
is less distinct - perhaps because the guitar is
a musical instrument, not
a mechanical device. However, I did find out the
reason I rushed was the material (mostly my
own) was too tricky, so I simply gave up singing
and writing songs with lyrics.

[groveland]

Mr Hackman -

I am very interested in what you are asking here. Can you give the name of the particular Grisman tunes, and describe where some of these flurries-of-interest are exactly?

[AlanN]

Grisman has been a main (if not the longest) influence on my mando-ness. His compositions, style and 'thing' are without equal. Like all things mandolin, I love it all, but in small doses. When he gets to doing the double time pents, it sometimes gets my teeth gnashing. One example is his solo on Steppin with Stephane (not on Dawg Jazz Dawg Grass, but the other one, I think Dawgwood). Mind you, it's great when he ***comes out** of the pattern, very smooth. But during the flurry, it...don't quite know how to say this...sometimes makes me ill http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Love to do the Dawg!

[jmcgann]

well, time is time and groove is groove, Peter, not sure what to say there...if something is impossible to play slow, I don't know what to say without sounding judgemental, so I'll bow out...I just want to offer the fact that if you enjoy DG's playing, he is a guy who is no stranger to the metronome. Evidently the DGQ practiced with one for 6 months together and apart before their first gig!

[Peter Hackman]

Mr Hackman -

I am very interested in what you are asking here. Can you give the name of the particular Grisman tunes, and describe where some of these flurries-of-interest are exactly?
I haven't been listening to Dawg lately, been busy brushing
up my own compositions.

I cited one example, The Island Song. Another
one might be Tipsy Gipsy, or was it Statman doing that
outrageous stuff?

I will have to check my CD collection the next few days.

[Peter Hackman]

Grisman has been a main (if not the longest) influence on my mando-ness. His compositions, style and 'thing' are without equal. Like all things mandolin, I love it all, but in small doses. When he gets to doing the double time pents, it sometimes gets my teeth gnashing. One example is his solo on Steppin with Stephane (not on Dawg Jazz Dawg Grass, but the other one, I think Dawgwood). Mind you, it's great when he ***comes out** of the pattern, very smooth. But during the flurry, it...don't quite know how to say this...sometimes makes me ill http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Love to do the Dawg!
Better make it clear that I am not referring to the occasional double-timing that marred some of his work on
Beginning to see the Light (and was one of Jethro's worst
habits, although not much in evidence on Back to Back) -
it lacks tension and groove. What I'm referring to is
the kind of stuff that seems to play itself
and manages to heighten the temperature, much the
way a well-placed tremolo does (Sam Bush
and Grisman are the masters of that).

I thought there was some secret to it, the shape
of the ideas, optimal string crossings, left hand work,
whatever. Maybe it's as mcgann hints,
just a question of playing fast and clean,
to create that unhurried and effortless feeling.

Haven't heard the Dawgwood version of Steppin'.
The one with Svend Asmussen is beautiful, though.
The one with Grapelli is best remembered for
Martin Taylor's electric guitar work.

[Peter Hackman]

well, time is time and groove is groove, Peter, not sure what to say there...if something is impossible to play slow, I don't know what to say without sounding judgemental, so I'll bow out...I just want to offer the fact that if you enjoy DG's playing, he is a guy who is no stranger to the metronome. Evidently the DGQ practiced with one for 6 months together and apart before their first gig!
My main trouble I've had with metronomes is
most of them are too quiet. I actually tried
one today and I had to strain to hear it while picking.
I then tried it with earphones, and it was even quieter
that way!

Singing with one, of course, is even more difficult,
if you have a naturally strong voice.

The kind of stuff that's hard to play slow is that which
involves sweeps in combination with
quick pull-offs and hammer-ons.

These things come to me while improvising and I think
of improvisation as a method of discovery although
some people tend to turn it into an academic
discipline.

[WJF]

Hi Peter,

If the volume of the metronome is an issue, you might want to check out the Boss "Dr. Beat" model DB-88. This metronome can do it all and is loud enough to be heard over a full band. I have to agree with John ... regular focused practice with a metronome is one of those "essentials" that will really move your musicianship to another level. BTW ... John has an excellent DVD available on his site that guides you through the process of working with a metronome in various time signatures, feeling/accenting the beat in different places (i.e. 1&3 vs 2&4) ... good stuff!!

Hope this helps!

[250sc]

peter,

What is a "sweep"?

"The kind of stuff that's hard to play slow is that which
involves sweeps in combination with
quick pull-offs and hammer-ons."

[drZed54]

Howdy, I saw Grisman a few years ago way up close and was amazed at how he " loaded up" the tremelo for speed before his pick hit the strings coming in to a passage with the quintet really cruising fast. What I saw was a tremelo up to speed while his left hand did patterns including pull offs and really does move at the "SPEED OF TREMELO ! Thanks DZ.

[Peter Hackman]

peter,

What is a "sweep"?

"The kind of stuff that's hard to play slow is that which
involves sweeps in combination with
quick pull-offs and hammer-ons."
What's going on here? My two latest posts disappeared.
OK, another try.

A sweep is several notes played in one pick stroke.
I don't really know what I'm doing most of the time
but there are a few patterns that I seem to favor.
One is a down stroke over the three top strings (of the
guitar) followed by a hammer-on and a pull-off.

Very effective over a minor 7 chord
(e.g. e-g-b-d-b) or dim chord (e.g. f#-a-c-eb-c)

Another is a down stroke over two strings
followed by one or two hammer-ons, more melodic.
The feeling I get
from these is that a certain pick pressure
on the string makes the rest come automatically.


I've been hoping to find patterns that work as effectively
on mandolin but maybe there aren't any!

[RolandTumble]

If I'm reading this correctly, a sweep is what metal-head guitarists call "speed picking"--it's kind of like a "brush" strum, where each note in a held chord gets a chance to sound its attack separately. Make it bidirectional, through in some hammers & pulls, and--viola! Speed picking!

I don't find that it works too well, on the mandolin, but that may just be me....

[Peter Hackman]

Only I don't think of it as speedy. That's a very important quality, and the quality I noticed in the stuff by Statman and
Grisman that I referred to, the way they make these groups
sixteenths spring forth from their instruments,
as if one note, or one stroke of the pick, triggered
the rest. That short Statman solo on Tipsy
Gipsy is so unbelievably relaxed.


If they do this *simply* by playing
slow things fast, as it were, then it's superhuman
and I'd better turn my attention to other things.

By way of comparison, many years ago I tried
to learn the prelude to Bach Goes to Town on
guitar. The first two bars each have four 16ths followed
by 6 8ths. I tried to learn them by playing
slow and speeding up. I made no progress at all
until I realized that this was not at all the way to
hear that phrase. When I heard them right I could do them
(but I no longer can).



But I would still like to see PDF transcriptions of
trickier Grisman or Statman
stuff, because I believe its equal parts
conception and execution.

[Peter Hackman]

Hi Peter,

If the volume of the metronome is an issue, you might want to check out the Boss "Dr. Beat" model DB-88. This metronome can do it all and is loud enough to be heard over a full band.
Hope this helps!
I discovered that my porta has a built-in metronome
with a perfect sound and volume, first I ever had
that I could play along with! Also has 251 different rhythms.
A shuffle seems to go with almost anything.
...
I might use it next time I record the solo part
before the back-up.

But of course, this has nothing to do with my question.
I think DZ:s answer is the closest to the truth.