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Brent
Jan-20-2004, 8:09pm
Hi Folks. I just posted this in the "Info about mandolins" section of the message board, but I thought I'd put it up here as well, to take advantage of the local expertise.
I just made a trade for a Washburn model 215 bowlback mandolin. Can anyone tell me when these were made and where they fit into the Washburn line? It seems that several years ago, I read an article in a music magazine about the history of Washburn bowlbacks. The guy who wrote it had over 50 of them, and the first picture was of him with all of his Washburns. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

Eugene
Jan-20-2004, 8:25pm
That was probably:
Russell, Neil. 2002. Luthier at Large. Mandolin Magazine 3(4):37-38.
Neil is THE Washburn guy. #Style 215 was Washburn's most basic model from 1905 through 1914. #"Cremonatone" was dropped from the label around 1910; that might help you get a little closer to manufacture year. #Even though this was the most basic Washburn model, the Washburn brand was Lyon & Healy's premier line. #It will be made of quality spruce and Brazilian rosewood and should be enjoyed to the fullest. #Make sure you string it up with ultra light strings (down to 0.009" or 0.0095" on e") and enjoy!

PS: Brent, I might be up NMU way this spring on a grant to collect some coaster brook trout.

Jim Garber
Jan-20-2004, 9:17pm
Here is a scan of a catalog page I have dated 1909.

Hey, Brent, did you get your 100 free lessons with that mandolin?

Jim

michaellampert
Jan-21-2004, 12:47am
I just love this bulletin board!

Brent
Jan-21-2004, 7:33am
Thanks Everyone. That is definitely the mandolin. Can't wait to get it. I once had a 1914 Martin 00 that I enjoyed a lot, and have been looking around for a bowlback for years. I'm really excited about getting this one.

PS - Eugene, drop me an email offline at <bgraves@nmu.edu>. If you are in the vicinit of NMU, perhaps we could arrange a research seminar, and some mandolin pickin' of course.
Brent

Brent
Jan-27-2004, 11:18am
I got the Washburn 215 yesterday. It plays great. I have a tendency to clamp down with my right hand fingers, but for some reason, perhaps very low action, this one induces me to lighten up. It also sounds very nice. I now have an F5-style, an A5-style, a 1920 A-2 round hole, and this bowlback. The differences in tone are very interesting.
Brent

Eugene
Jan-27-2004, 2:08pm
Coincidence!? I just received a 1905-1910 Washburn style 225 yesterday. It needs a new bridge and the frets are mighty low, but other than that it looks good. The rosewood is intensely figured. More as it develops.

Brent
Jan-29-2004, 10:18am
BTW, the label on this one does not say "Cremonatone," so I guess it was made between 1910 and 1914. Sound right? Also, it looks like it is strung with silk-n-steel strings (silverish G and D strings), so I figure the string tension is pretty low. So what do you think about the 225? How does that differ from the 215?
Brent

Eugene
Jan-29-2004, 1:16pm
Well, the strings on my 225 were too heavy. #I pulled them off and cleaned and oiled things. #Upon restringing with incredibly cheap and light Mari strings (silver plated), I discovered one g and one d' tuner slipped badly enough that they could not be brought to pitch. #I have left it with a local shop. #When it's back, I intend to have the L&H-style bridge reproduced by Ben Wilcox if he'll give me his time. #It sounded very nice from what I could hear of a' and e" before I sent the piece away.

Style 225 has 21 rosewood ribs. #Tuners are enclosed behind an engraved plate, and it has an engraved tailpiece. #There is some simple mother-of-pearl inlay in the scratchplate and all position markers are engraved (a dot at five, but fanciful thingies at 1, 7, 10, and 12). #Binding and rosette are multi-colored herringbone. #Here is an image provided by the seller complete with one of the most atrocious replacement bridges I've encountered (I think the bridge was designed for an arched top and nobody made any effort to fit it to this piece).

Jim Garber
Jan-29-2004, 4:04pm
Upon restringing with incredibly cheap and light Mari strings (silver plated), I discovered one g and one d' tuner slipped badly enough that they could not be brought to pitch.
I have one of these but there are a few things wrong with mine. The tuner gears are held on only with rivets not screws. Neil Russel suggested a way to peen them but I may just send the whole tuner mechanisms to him to work on.

Eugene: were your tuners like these?

Jim Garber
Jan-29-2004, 4:06pm
Here is an image provided by the seller complete with one of the most atrocious replacement bridges I've encountered (I think the bridge was designed for an arched top and nobody made any effort to fit it to this piece).
Here is a photo of the bridge that came with mine.

You will note that it is not the bridge design with the bone insert.

Also, the other big problem with it is that the top has sunk around the cant. Is there a way that a pro luthier can fix that without replacing the top?

Jim Garber
Jan-29-2004, 4:08pm
Hard to tell from the catalog page but it looks to me that my bridge is pretty close to the original.

Jim Garber
Jan-29-2004, 4:11pm
Oops! Perhaps this one will better serve the purpose.

Eugene
Jan-29-2004, 4:58pm
Eugene: were your tuners like these?
Absolutely. I think that's the standard-issue enclosed L&H tuner.


Hard to tell from the catalog page but it looks to me that my bridge is pretty close to the original.

All the L&H-brand bowlbacks seem to have squared off bridges with various decorative cuts at the terminus. I have a friend with quite a stash of Washburns. The closest L&H of which I know is a friend with a decent American Conservatory. I'll probably use that as a model for reproduction, but may have Ben dress it up a la Garber.


Also, the other big problem with it is that the top has sunk around the cant. Is there a way that a pro luthier can fix that without replacing the top?

That sounds like a tricky business to me. If a brace is loose, reglueing it might restore the top to some degree; if the sinkage isn't severe, it might be enough. I know of a local flat-back L&H that had a sunken cant and a loose brace. A rather durable baloon was inflated inside the soundbox and the brace glued. This restored the top for a time; the last I saw the piece, the cant had fallen a little bit again but to a fraction of its prior state of bad. You might want to at least call Tom at Umanov's for a little free exploratory consultation.

Jim Garber
Jan-29-2004, 5:31pm
Eugene: were your tuners like these?
Absolutely. #I think that's the standard-issue enclosed L&H tuner.
I consulted with Mr. Russell and he said that many of them (later ones?) had the screw holding the gear. It sounds like you may have the same problem that I have, i.e. the gear falling off the post.

Jim

Eugene
Jan-30-2004, 11:23am
It sounds like you may have the same problem that I have, i.e. the gear falling off the post.
Exactly. I think I may write Neil to access his secret peening method too.

Hey, I didn't get my 100 free lessons either!

kkallaur
Jan-31-2004, 9:25pm
Here is a picture of my Washburn 215 that I inherited from Great Grandfather. This one was abused, it hung above a fireplace in a cabin in the Poconos for years until the Cabin burnt down. I had Whil at Spruce Tree Music in Madison, WI. fix a couple of cracks and spaces between the Ribs. Don't know if you can tell from this picture, but the top has no cant to it.

Jim Garber
Feb-01-2004, 11:08pm
I just read this copy from an 1889 Washburn catalog and figured I'd share it. Gives you an idea about how popluar the mandolin was and how big a manufacturer L&H was... or were they pulling our leg. Ah, those golden days...

Hey, Eugene... maybe we can send those patent heads back to the factory. Where's that time machine?

Jim

keef
Feb-02-2004, 10:40pm
Hey Jim - are you sure that's 1889 - or 1899??

BTW - for any of the prewar Washburn mando owners on this forum: dating can be done on the basis of the serial numbers too...let me know if you are interested. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

John Zimm
Feb-03-2004, 5:19am
I had Whil at Spruce Tree Music in Madison, WI.
Hey Ken, I was just at Spruce Tree the other day to buy a new strap for my Mk and a set of ultra lights for my Stella. Small world.

-John.

Jim Garber
Feb-03-2004, 8:54am
Hey Jim - are you sure that's 1889 - or 1899??
I got this copy from Neil Russell who is pretty knowledgeable and he dated it 1889-90.

Jim

Do you have a list of numbers? My 225 is A-2156.

keef
Feb-05-2004, 3:52am
A-2156...my best guess would be around 1907. Check with Neil too...

Jim Garber
Feb-05-2004, 7:43am
keef,
Where can I find the master list?

Jim

keef
Feb-05-2004, 10:31am
Umm...nowhere. I know that Neil is working on a book right now. I have compiled a lot of Washburn serial number data but am not ready to publish anything yet - any findings should stand up to scrutiny, which is why I need more time to go over my research data.

The absence of historical company records is the biggest problem. It's so much easier to do something on Martin or Gibson - but that has been done before... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Brent
Feb-08-2004, 6:29pm
My 215 is A-12254, writtten in very pretty script on the label, as well as ink-stamped on the neck block. Information from earlier in this thread leads me to believe that it was made between 1910 (when Cremonatone was dropped from the label) and 1914 (when the model 215 was dropped). Does this sound about right?
Brent

keef
Feb-09-2004, 3:35am
Yes...did you get that from Elderly?

Eugene
Feb-10-2004, 1:55pm
Say, Buckley, how are you enjoying that Stella...or otherwise?

John Zimm
Feb-10-2004, 4:30pm
Say, Buckley, how are you enjoying that Stella...or otherwise?
Sad to say, I strung it up and it sounds like wires from a screen door strung across a wooden cracker box. It does have structural problems, with some binding between the ribs being cracked and pushed in, and the finish is shot, but I am not sure how one would make a playable instrument out of it. I am thinking it may look nice on the wall.

-John.

Eugene
Feb-10-2004, 5:34pm
Eeeww! I'm sorry to hear it (and would be sorrier to hear it).

John Zimm
Feb-10-2004, 10:05pm
Eeeww! I'm sorry to hear it (and would be sorrier to hear it).
yeah, you would be pretty sorry to hear it. It is a shame when good bowlbacks go bad. And here I was getting fired up to join the Brotherhood of the Bowl. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

-Buckley.

vkioulaphides
Feb-11-2004, 8:41am
Well, buckley... I think we have a Brother-in-Waiting status classification on our charter, don't we? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

But you are right: Some bowlbacks have sustained so much structural damage that they cannot be salvaged: many, perhaps TOO many parts that can come apart with time and neglect.

Still, have you given us a detailed account of the condition of this instrument? I, for one, would not give up a mando for dead without due, ehm... biopsy.

John Zimm
Feb-11-2004, 9:22am
Hey Victor,

I can take some pictures and post them. I am not sure that I could get some of the features to show up, like the terrible finish, but I will try. Basically, the major problems are the finish and the hole in the back where the binding between the ribs was crushed in at some point. That isn't too bad, and is only an inch long and there is no damage to the rib itself. Also, the tuners are terrible and ought to be replaced. The soundboard looks dry and not particularly flexible, and I am not sure how to correct that without stripping the finish, putiing some kind of oil on the wood, and then refinishing it. On a good note, the fingerboard is absolutely flat and straight, and the frets are all perfectly level.

I had the crazy thought of trying to build a bowlback using my Stella as a pattern. I'd basically just take measurements as best I could and try to devise some type of jig to hold the ribs after I bent them. If I thought it all out and made the right kind og jig, I think a bowlback could be fairly simple to make. I'll keep you posted if this actually comes to fruition. Maybe one day the Buckly Bowlback will be all the rage. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Maybe I'll call it the Buckley Taterbug.

-John.

Jim Garber
Feb-11-2004, 9:36am
I had the crazy thought of trying to build a bowlback using my Stella as a pattern. #I'd basically just take measurements as best I could and try to devise some type of jig to hold the ribs after I bent them. #If I thought it all out and made the right kind og jig, I think a bowlback could be fairly simple to make. #I'll keep you posted if this actually comes to fruition. #Maybe one day the Buckly Bowlback will be all the rage. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #Maybe I'll call it the Buckley Taterbug. #

-John.
I certainly understand the desire to build a bowlback but why use as a standard an instrument that "sounds like wires from a screen door strung across a wooden cracker box." #Get hold of a high quality good sounding bug and go from there. I am sure than many of us on this list would be happy to show you their prize instruments for copying.

As far as guidance on construction... I am not sure. I know that Robert Lundberg's (http://www.luth.org/luteblrb.htm) book on lute construction is the be-all for lutes and I imagine that there are many similarities in construction.

If the Stella is a lost case, tho, why not just try to improve it yourself? Take the whole thing apart and see how it ticks. Just my HO.

For your information: Musikalia, the makers of inexpnsive bowlbacks and the like, have a page of construction here (http://www.musikalia.it/rassegna/01_testo.htm).

Jim

Brent
Feb-11-2004, 10:21am
Concerning Brent's Washburn 215, keef asked:

...did you get that from Elderly?


Actually, I got it via the MC classified section from George Manno (great guy, a million great stories) as trade for an electric guitar. However, George got it from Elderly, and they still have the pictures up at: http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-3453.htm>

vkioulaphides
Feb-11-2004, 11:08am
Nice link, Jim. A while back, I had promised to post something similar, by translating from an old book I have (in Greek) describing in some detail the construction of folk lutes in general. I hope to retrieve that book around Easter and, if interest in the subject on this board continues, post something (perhaps) of value. For a change http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

John Zimm
Feb-11-2004, 12:31pm
Victor,

I would be incredibly interested in seeing this sometime. I would actually be interested in learning Greek sometime, as my wife's family emigrated from Greece a while back.


I certainly understand the desire to build a bowlback but why use as a standard an instrument that "sounds like wires from a screen door strung across a wooden cracker box." Get hold of a high quality good sounding bug and go from there. I am sure than many of us on this list would be happy to show you their prize instruments for copying.
I am reasoning that the Stella sounds so bad because of the wood, not the dimensions. I believe it will be fine as a model for a better instrument. I do not want to take it apart because it is a family heirloom in my wife's family, and as such has value beyond its ability to produce music.

I am going to check out the book on lute construction and see if there are any ideas that I can use. I am thinking it would be great fun to try and make one of these.

-John.

Jim Garber
Feb-11-2004, 12:41pm
Possibly it is the wood and the construction of the instrument. On the other hand I have played Stellas that sounded fine, not too refined like Vegas or Martins but decent sounding.

My point was, since you are building something from scratch, why not check out other makers methods, esp those of instruments whose sound you like?

Jim

vkioulaphides
Feb-11-2004, 1:16pm
Well, buckley, since this project of yours is meant to be a "personal journey" of sorts, you can go about it in any one of many ways. In time, I will share with you what (little) I know.

What no article on the subject can possibly convey sufficiently is how many, many hours of work go into building an instrument. In fact, the only way instrument shops attain cost-effectiveness is by specialization: I know, for example, that few shops in Greece build their own bowls; many pre-fab bowls seem to come from a handful of bowlsmiths/bowlwrights (what would be an eloquent and appropriate English term for "builder of bowls"?) This applies to mandolins, bouzoukis, and all other folk-lutes... Ditto on necks, fingerboards, bridges and, of course, metal hardware.

On the other extreme, Larson builds his bowls without a mold (!!!), as per RSW's report (Richard, apologies if I am misquoting you—#I remember this from a while back). Absent a mold and a mechanism for mass-production of bowls, building just one mandolin is a larger project than you may imagine. Think of all the initial tooling alone!

The outside-in, staves-on-a-mold procedure made the mandolin the popular and popul-IST instrument it once was. It also has kept valuation of even the finest pieces from ever reaching the price levels that all-hand-carved, quality violins have risen to. Then again, THAT is a bit of a conspiracy amongst dealers and belongs to an entirely other rave, not on this board.

John Zimm
Feb-11-2004, 1:55pm
Possibly it is the wood and the construction of the instrument. On the other hand I have played Stellas that sounded fine, not too refined like Vegas or Martins but decent sounding.

My point was, since you are building something from scratch, why not check out other makers methods, esp those of instruments whose sound you like?

Good point Jim. I will look into some finer bowlbacks. I am currently in the research phase of the project, as I am currently struggling to build a celtic style mando which is much easier to construct than a bowlback I imagine.

Anyway, if this project does ever mature past its present larval condition, I will keep you posted. heck, I will probably take many pictures just to prove I did it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

-John.