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olgraypat
Oct-17-2005, 1:45pm
Okay. I've learned major scales all over the fretboard. Seems to be lots of information out there on that. If someone says "lets play that in any major key," I'm pretty much good to go. But, I've missed, and don't seem to find much around the Cafe on learning minor scales. Guess it's just one of those mental blocks that I've developed in my relatively new learning process. Any suggestions?

JimD
Oct-17-2005, 2:00pm
Hi Pat,

The reason for the lack of information is probably the fact that minor scales allow for much more flexibility than major scales do.

The "conventional-wisdom" minor scales are as follows:

natural minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1 (as compared to major)

harmonic minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 1

melodic minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 1 b7 b6 5 4 b3 2 1 (different ascending than descending)

In some styles "minor" might refer to one of the modes:

Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1

Aeolian (same as natural minor)

Phrygian: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1

In addition, there is the so called "Jazz minor" that is the same as the ascending form of the classical melodic minor.

There is the pentatonic minor: 1 b3 4 5 b7 1

The problem is that in different styles, different minors will prove useful -- often several different types in one style.

Don't get me started on the classical forms (natural, melodic and harmonic) -- they rarely function in the way you would expect them to. Scales, after all, are melodic source material but not an end in themselves.

Hope this helps.

John Flynn
Oct-17-2005, 2:13pm
Well, Jim, that should make things really clear for a beginner! LOL! Olgraypat, if someone just says "minor" without qualifying what kind of minor it is, 99% of the time they are referring to the natural minor, or Aeolian mode. You take the major scale and lower the third, sixth and seventh notes of the major scale a half step each and you are there. So in the key of C, the major scale of C, D, E, F, G, A, B becomes the C minor scale of C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb.

olgraypat
Oct-17-2005, 2:15pm
So, any practical advice? Like, for example, to find the A min natural scale, go to the ____ scale, move up a certain mumber of frets, etc? I like things simple. Or, since I am becoming more familiar with pentatonic scales, how to learn the pentatonic minor.....maybe that would be a good place to start......... Or is there just no simple to learn this. For example, I would like to learn "wayfaring Stranger." In fact, I'm working on just picking it out, but I think it's in A min. Is there a simple way for me to locate A min (natural, I assume) on the fretboard?

John Flynn
Oct-17-2005, 2:35pm
For A minor, one way to do it would be:
On the G, or lowest string, the frets would be: 2-4-5-7
On the D, string, the frets would be: 2-3-5-7
On the A, string, the frets would be: 2-3-5-7
On the E, string, the frets would be: 1-3-5

John Ritchhart
Oct-17-2005, 2:38pm
Play from A to A using the C scale notes. A B C D E F G A. No flats or sharps. Aeolian mode can be thought of this way in any key. The sixth (relative minor)note played in the scale of the first degree. A to A in the case of the Key of C. E to E in the case of the key of G, etc.

olgraypat
Oct-17-2005, 3:07pm
Okay. So, next time someone says this one's in "A min" I'm ready. I say, That's Aeolian mode? And proceed to noodle around in the C maj scale, realizing that my scale starts with A and ends in A rather than C to C. BUT, going back to practicality, since every song in A min isn't going to call for me to begin with an A, wouldn't, for all practical purposes, the A min scale just be the C scale, keeping in mind that the root note is A instead of C? and so on, for the other minor keys and their relative majors?

JimD
Oct-17-2005, 3:18pm
if someone just says "minor" without qualifying what kind of minor it is, 99% of the time they are referring to the natural minor, or Aeolian mode.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

That really depends who you are playing with. The quickest way to get a beginner confused is to tell them something that isn't true enough of the time.

I've been playing for many years in many different situations and it is my experience that most people will just say minor without qualifiers when refering to any of the scales that I listed. The only ones who get more specific are teachers-- when they are teaching.

This is true in many styles of music. Most people don't know which form of the scale they are in AND in many cases is doesn't matter because trying to reduce minor to a single scale is a gross oversimplification.

Jim Garber
Oct-17-2005, 4:05pm
Any decent violin scale book will have what you need. My kid's teacher recommended Essentials for Strings (I think that is the title) and it has two- and three-octave scales in all the keys, minor and major with the fingering for position changes as well. Each key is associated with the relative minor. I am sure that there are other similar books as well, perhaps some online.

Jim

groveland
Oct-17-2005, 9:46pm
Pat -

To break it down - You already know A natural minor if you know C major. #And yes if everyone is jamming in A minor, just use the notes from the C major scale freely, and you will do fine...

EXCEPT REMEMBER THIS ONE THING: In natural minor, always AVOID emphasizing or landing on the sixth of the scale. #If you do, you change the tonality. #You can use the sixth (in A minor, an F) as a passing tone, just don't stay there. #It's a hot potato.

By the same token, when playing in C major, avoid the fourth like a hot potato - passing is okay, just don't stay there (that would be the F again). It will change the tonality. All notes of the C major are fair game.

The best way to test this out is play your C major scale against a C pedal bass, and then against an A pedal bass. #You'll hear it right away. #Major - avoid the fourth. #Minor - avoid the sixth.

And of course, you can transpose the relative major/minor relationship to any key. #E minor is G major. #F major is D minor. #Just watch the 'avoid notes', and play the rest of the notes freely.

(Oh, and Jim Dalton - I don't think Pat is going to be improvising against alt chords today, so this is probably not dangerous oversimplification, just simple and safe tips to get up and running. Agreed?)

JimD
Oct-18-2005, 5:02am
(Oh, and Jim Dalton - I don't think Pat is going to be improvising against alt chords today, so this is probably not dangerous oversimplification, just simple and safe tips to get up and running. #Agreed?)

Obviously this is not what I'm talking about either. #

I am not going to waste my time trying to clarify.

groveland
Oct-18-2005, 6:32am
Yikes - Did I say something wrong? If I did, I apologize. I will bow out of this conversation now.

250sc
Oct-18-2005, 7:09am
groveland,

Go figure. Don't loose any sleep about it.

JimD
Oct-18-2005, 7:11am
Just trying to avoid having my comments misrepresented. Pardon me for getting involved at all.

Peter Hackman
Oct-18-2005, 8:05am
Just trying to avoid having my comments misrepresented. Pardon me for getting involved at all.
Not at all; your post was exemplary, and we could have done without the rest.

olgraypat
Oct-18-2005, 9:25am
Okay guys. All contributions appreciated and helpful. My theory is that we all learn in different ways. One of my "quirks" is that I need to see some progress quickly. So, I got some stuff I can begin with on a low level, work with that, until some of the more advanced stuff begins to make more sense. I'll keep notes from Jim D, which I'm sure will be helpful. Thanks to all. It all helps me make more sense of it.

John Flynn
Oct-18-2005, 10:39am
Gawd, what a bunch of whiners! If you are a thin-skinned prima donna with no sense of humor, then an internet message board may not be the place for you! If you can't swim, don't jump in the pool! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

arbarnhart
Oct-18-2005, 11:27am
Is there a similar correlation between blues scales? Is the C blues scale also suitable for Am in most cases?

OdnamNool
Oct-18-2005, 11:49am
Howdy-do, everybody!

Hey, O.G. Pat! There really isn't such a "quick" solution. Understanding scales takes a little bit o' time. Understanding music theory....... never, really! I mean, it's an open subject... It's on-going! It's alive!

With a keyboard, you might be able to visualize a minor scale more easily... Do, re, me (flat!), so, fa, la (flat!), te (sharp!,) doh! If you don't have a keyboard, start on, say yer low G string on the mandolin...
G...A...B-flat!,...C,...D,...E-flat,...F#,...G!

That's my simple explanation. But I sure do dig ALLof the explanations, here. Like pat says, "we all learn in different ways." And even if it's over your head for now... eventually, it might make sense. And for some, it already does make sense... So... please keep contributing all information, everybody! Thanks!

Peter Hackman
Oct-18-2005, 12:22pm
Is there a similar correlation between blues scales? Is the C blues scale also suitable for Am in most cases?
No.

But there is such a thing as minor blues. You could
say it emphasizes the fourth and the augmented fourth
of the scale a lot. Then there is the option of
major or minor seventh on the dominant (g# or g).



A really beautiful example of as minor blues is
Journey, recorded by Gerry Mulligan and Dave Brubeck
36 years ago. Right now I can't think of a more recent
example.

arbarnhart
Oct-18-2005, 12:50pm
I play a lot with some guitarists who are veteran blues players. When explaining a song, the instructions are often something like "this one is in E and it starts on the 5". I can actually sort of handle that - it will be a B, then an A, then an E turnaround and just some general 12 bar E blues. There might be some 7s in there and I can recognize then and starting adding them to my rhythm. I can even find some lead using the D strings at the 2nd fret as my scale anchor. Impressed? I doubt it. Anyway, while I am not all that good at it yet, at least I am not lost. But when someone says "this one is in A minor", I am pretty much toast. I hang in and play two string rhythm using the simple 1-5 power form, since that mixes in okay with major or minor, but if I try to do any lead or double stops that aren't 1-5, I almost invariably sour it.

JimD
Oct-18-2005, 1:04pm
Now that I have more than two minutes to respond, I'll try to make a simple statement that hopefully won't be taken as being "too thin-skinned".

My main "issue" (if you want to think of it that way) is that I spend the better part of my week working with remedial theory students and fixing an awful lot of misconceptions. Some of these students are recovering from faulty teaching and some have simply just believed everything that they read on the web.

So, I simply stated that the whole concept of minors is a gray area -- not black and white.

RolandTumble
Oct-18-2005, 2:37pm
There's nothing really wrong with simplification as an introductory technique, as long as it's explicit.

That is: "Well, it's more complex than this, but here's a simple version to start on & then we'll go from there...". If you try to give all the information at once about a complex, grey subect--such as minor scales/keys--you risk overwhelming the "student". But only giving the simple version, without mention that it is a simplification, can leave the "student" in dire need of remedial help from heroes such as Jim.

Pete Martin
Oct-18-2005, 2:45pm
Any scale with a b3 has a minor sound. Just use all the other notes as your ear likes to hear them. There are a TON of possibilities, try them all. Best of luck.

OdnamNool
Oct-18-2005, 3:07pm
Right on, petimer!

JimD, you are correct about the whole grey area! You sure have a lot of informative information to share! Thank you!

This is a cool thread! My favorite type of music... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif ...the sad, minor, stuff... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Peter Hackman
Oct-19-2005, 5:40am
Right on, petimer!

JimD, you are correct about the whole grey area! You sure have a lot of informative information to share! Thank you!

This is a cool thread! My favorite type of music... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif ...the sad, minor, stuff... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
second only to the HAPPY minor stuff!

mandocrucian
Oct-19-2005, 7:19am
Modes Made Easy (http://www.mandolincafe.com/niles2.html)

OdnamNool
Oct-19-2005, 7:20am
Hmmmmmmmmmm. Happy- http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif minor-stuff? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

olgraypat
Oct-19-2005, 9:42am
I really appreciate all the information. I'm already trying stuff out, and it's making sense. Jim D--your explanation is exactly as I took your post. As I indicated, I printed it out and have it in my computer, as I do most of this discussion.
Abarnhart--at the risk of oversimplification--I've been told in a similar discussion that all you need to do is locate the "blues box" of choice--at the "A" position (2d fret)--move the whole thing up three frets and you're in Amin. Don't want to over simplify (ahem) but have you heard/tried that? Of course you're playing a pentatonic scale, but this will give you the freedom to just sort of noodle around at that level. Would that work? I'm obviously not as experienced as you--just passing along something I heard.

olgraypat
Oct-19-2005, 9:46am
By the way, thanks to Mandocrucian, whose pentatonic mando book has helped me tremendously, as will the link above. Perhaps I should have looked there first, but failed to do so. By the way, I recommend the book, available at Elderly.

AlanN
Oct-19-2005, 9:58am
ditto to any of Niles' books.

arbarnhart
Oct-19-2005, 10:50am
Abarnhart--at the risk of oversimplification--I've been told in a similar discussion that all you need to do is locate the "blues box" of choice--at the "A" position (2d fret)--move the whole thing up three frets and you're in Amin. #Don't want to over simplify (ahem) but have you heard/tried that? #Of course you're playing a pentatonic scale, but this will give you the freedom to just sort of noodle around at that level. #Would that work? #I'm obviously not as experienced as you--just passing along something I heard.
It's not obvious at all - I don't have all that much experience yet either, especially in this crowd. What you are describing is moving up to C, which means it would jive with the rest of this thread (or at least the possibly too simple part that I can follow). A tangent - you mention the "blues box". I have tried to get away from thinking that way and think of the root note as an anchor that I can move away from in all 4 directions until I run out of either strings or frets. For example, you can play the root note, the same string 3 or 5 frets higher or 2 frets lower, the string below (pitchwise) at the same fret or 1 or 2 or 5 frets higher, the string above at mostly the same frets as the current string, etc. This is far from complete, but you get the idea. When I get too far from the root then it is time to switch octaves and use a different anchor. So far, I have pretty much memorized the relative location for the major scale, blues scale and pentatonic. I don't always remember which note is which and still do a lot of mental gymnastics, but when I hit the wrong note (which happens a lot) it is usually in the right key.

jmcgann
Oct-19-2005, 4:40pm
SOAPBOX RANT FROM A FELLOW TEACHER:

If you play natural minor on "So What" (Dm7 for 16 bars) you totally destroy the flavor of the mood (mode). You need the natural 6 in there (dorian mode). The idea that minor scales default to "aeolian 99% of the time" is simply untrue.

People like Jim D. should be paid attention to-even by beginners. He is being generous by offering free advice that people pay LOTS of money for. There are a lot more uses of minor scales than applying them to altered chords!

If you are going to play music, it really doesn't hurt to have respect for the music (not to mention fellow musicians!), and to try and understand what it's about. Yes, this is just the "craft" aspect, as opposed to the "soul" aspect, but believe me, you will have much more fun playing soulfully if your craft element is up to speed. It's not rocket surgery, and many "OK" players could become "really good" players if they opened up their minds a bit. We are looking for ways to improve, right?!?!

Perry
Oct-19-2005, 6:43pm
Here's a fantastic book I am currently trying to comprehend:

http://www.berkleepress.com/catalog....ry_id=4 (http://www.berkleepress.com/catalog/product?product_id=3702025&category_id=4)

The whole concept of this book is to break away from the scale/mode way of looking at things by using triads and their extensions. The book is very well written and does not try to chew off too much at a time.

For example:

When playing over a G minor chord...you can play a Gminor triad and extend it upwards by stacking diatonic thirds...let's say the key of F...you end up with these triads that can be played over a Gminor chord (and also works over a C7 chord..because C7 is the V chord in the key of F)

G minor
B major
D minor
F major

What you end up with is cool extensions of the chords.
And to continue along with 'So What'. The author of book, Garrison Fewell, specifically addresses soloing over So What. Besides the dorian mode he talks about accenting the the 6th by playing A- triad and it's extensions: C major, Eminor and G major. So the idea is to really break you out of "running" scales. It's really kind of neat and you start sounding, for lack of a better word; "hip".

Of course there is nothing worng with scales and modes and licks this is just more tool for making hopefully good music.

I bet the teachers on this thread can explain this. I am jsut paraphrasing the book but I have tried the concepts
mostly on guitar so far.

arbarnhart
Oct-19-2005, 7:22pm
I am not a professional musician or music instructor. When I mention something that seems to be working for me, I hope it might be something useful that will help someone else but I am open to constructive criticism or ridicule if there is something wrong with it. I play regularly with 2 entirely different sets of people - a late night blues jam and a folk choir. In both cases I am the least experienced musician (counting recent experience with my current instrument anyway) and only mandolin, so I do a lot of shortcuts to just hang in there. I do also study theory (scratching the surface) and work through exercises in books and videos, but I am not currently taking lessons from an instructor.

I should probably put that disclaimer at the top of each post. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif