*** Fraud Alert ***

[Scott Tichenor]

This morning around noon CDT, an individual with an IP address from Nigeria responded to about 40 classified ads and is subsequently attempting an offer to "overpay" for items for sale. This is an obvious front end to a scam. Warning emails have been sent to everyone this individual responded to but I am placing this here as a reminder to be on your toes when selling items anywhere on the web, including the Cafe Classifieds.

In this case the email address used was young_jack001@yahoo.com and a complaint has been filed with Yahoo's abuse service. Our track record of getting these accounts shut down is 100% so far (5 for 5 in the past year) so if you've received email from this account, be warned. This type of activity is also another obvious reason why I DON'T want people openly posting their email addresses in ads. Let the classifieds software protect your address for you! This also protects spambots from picking up those email addresses.

Another thing: do NOT respond to this individual. It will only encourage them. We've taken additional steps to block this address at the server level but there are always possible ways around this on their end.

[Pedal Steel Mike]

The way the scam works is that the person running it claims to have some sort of bond for more than the amount of the item which he will send you and asks you so send him or her the item and the change AFTER it has cleared. It sounds legit, but what happens is that 3 months later, the check or bond turns out to be fraudulant, and the amount is deducted from your bank account, so you've lost the item and the amount of money you sent.

I recently posted a pedal steel for sale on the steel guitar forum and was contacted by one of these scam artists. He used the name "Michael Taylor." (I didn't fall for it.)

These criminals are more than just con men and thieves. According to story on TV (I thnk it was on 60 minutes,) there have been several people who were murdered after getting involved with them.

[357mag]

Thats some pretty good police work. I would be interested in knowing how you found out about the 40 responses. I dont NEED to know http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but I sure am curious.

[DryBones]

Thats some pretty good police work. I would be interested in knowing how you found out about the 40 responses. I dont NEED to know #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but I sure am curious.
didn't you see his post? Scott is a "Super Administrator" !! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Scott Tichenor]

Thats some pretty good police work. I would be interested in knowing how you found out about the 40 responses. I dont NEED to know http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but I sure am curious.
I will tell you very openly how I know exactly how many there are. That's because any contact made to anyone via the Cafe Classifieds is permanently captured in case it's needed for this very reason, which is to protect the people that use this site from fraud attempts as happened this morning.

That 'reply to ad' feature is the way initial contact is made. Emails on the classifieds are protected--not displayed in the ad or the page source code. Instead, the ad number is linked to a simple database that pulls out the email and mails to the ad submittor based on the ad number. It's handled in that fashion in order to protect the integrity of your email address which otherwise would be subject to being harvested by spambots (computer programs that collect email addresses for spamming purposes).

In this fashion of collecting replies and new ads, a lot of email header information is captured including the IP address of the user that uses that feature. That allowed me to do one simple WhoIs search this morning and find out this cat was from Nigeria. This also captures some other information which is only used in cases of attempted fraud.

With this feature enabled, I can respond quickly to these attempts, and forward the appropriate information to the free email service providers that are almost always the source of this problem. I've found Yahoo, HotMail and even some small private email service providers to be very responsive in shutting down these accounts. And when they are shut down, we're likely protecting not only you, but users on a lot of other classified sites in the process.

That answer your question? If not, be glad to expand on it. There may be a fair amount of information that doesn't make sense here for some folks but the bottom line is there has to be something in place to protect users of that resource. I take this responsibility very seriously and act very aggressively when someone messes with it.

[357mag]

Whew! Sounds like a full time job. Alot obviously goes on behind the scenes that we dont know about. Thank you.
Certain of this type of information sometimes is on a need to know basis. And in some cases, not at all. So I respect certain areas of sensitivity.
In this case, the information you have provided should be fair warning to anyone reading it. Nuf said!

[psann]

The same sort of thing is happening on my artgroup. Artists are getting offers to purchase paintings from their individual websites. In several cases the buyer originally sounded legit claiming to be a lady in Ireland who "just loves their work" and wanted to purchase paintings but they wanted to send a money order for an amount substantially in excess of the purchase price. The seller is requested to deduct the price and send the balance to a brokerage account. A couple of them had several communications with the scammers before it got to the terms and raised suspicions. Webmasters traced the source back to Nigeria.

Pat

[arbarnhart]

I am always amazed when people fall for this.

IF (big if) you will take a foreign check, subject it to the same terms as I think are reasonable for a domestic check: ship the item after it clears. If they want change from their check, they need to go to the supermarket, not ask me to do it.

[glauber]

I am always amazed when people fall for this.

IF (big if) you will take a foreign check, subject it to the same terms as I think are reasonable for a domestic check: ship the item after it clears. If they want change from their check, they need to go to the supermarket, not ask me to do it.
Not always good. Some of these checks, especially cashier checks, may clear initially and bomb later. Some of the banks are in cahoots with the crooks.

The main thing to remember is, there is no free lunch. Especially on the Internet. If anything seems too good to be true, it probably is.

[Willie Poole]

I`ve recieved about seven e mails in the last three weeks saying I have won the British lottery....If only it was true....I though about opening a new bank account with 5 bucks in it and responding to these e mails just in case they were true....Willie

[sunburst]

Yeah, I don't know how many times I've won the British lottery. Funny how you don't have to enter to win...

Here's the top of the page when I open my "mail" program. Notice I put the "bounce" button right next to delete? Anything that gets past the spam filters but doesn't look right to me, I bounce it back to the sender. That's supposed to give them the message that mine is not a valid address. Almost all the spams bounce right back to me, though.

[Scott Tichenor]

Here's the basic email everyone received with only the instrument information changed:

--------

Dear Sir,
I'm Mr.Young Jack am inquiring concerning the advert placed on ads concerning your New Double ViolinMandolin Case because I'm willing to purchase it becausse i have seen it features, so please kindly get back to me with the present condition, your location and the last price offer for the New Double ViolinMandolin Case.
A lots of thanks,
Young.

[arbarnhart]

Some of these checks, especially cashier checks, may clear initially and bomb later. Some of the banks are in cahoots with the crooks.
Wow - I did not know of such, but I am in the US. The banks I do business with are very black and white on this issue. Before it clears it is my problem and after it is theirs. The whole banking system is set up on a protocol that allows no "oops". Clearing is supposed to mean they got the money for it, not that they were told it was okay and money would likely be exchanged soon. The way the Federal Exchange works in the US, I don't think banks can come back to you if it really cleared. Now some banks may try to do you a favor by showing funds in your account prior to clearance, but they are usualy clear about that.

[DryBones]

Sunburst,
what browser/email program are you using?

[Rob Zamites]

Jason, that looks like Mac OS X's "Mail.app" email client. It might be Thunderbird too.

[Fuzzyway]

"Some of these checks, especially cashier checks, may clear initially and bomb later."

I know someone who took a cashier check from a well known bank in L.A. Calif, last year on a very expensive mandolin...shipped the mandolin...and you can guess the rest of the story. Until the funds clear, cashiers checks are just like personal checks...easy to forge.

Be careful out there,
Best, fuzzy

[Greenmando]

Wow - I did not know of such, but I am in the US. The banks I do business with are very black and white on this issue. Before it clears it is my problem and after it is theirs.
I bet if you ask your bank about international MO's or cashiers checks they may have new guide lines for you.

[glauber]

Wow - I did not know of such, but I am in the US. The banks I do business with are very black and white on this issue. Before it clears it is my problem and after it is theirs.
I bet if you ask your bank about international MO's or cashiers checks they may have new guide lines for you.
Read the book Catch me if you can (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0767905385/102-3410655-1418552?v=glance) to see how it can be done. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm trying to get some references, but i don't know if there is any proof that real banks have been in the con. I know there have been fake "banks" set up that don't really exist, and forged cashier checks:

According to this entry at snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/cashier.asp), the usual scam with cashier checks relies on the fact that FDIC bank rules in the US force banks to release funds before a cashier check is fully cleared, in some cases.


High quality forgeries can be bounced back and forth between banks for weeks before anyone catches on to their being worthless, by which time victims have long since wired the "overpayments" to the con artists who have just taken them for a ride.

In the book i mentioned above, the criminal was able to figure out exactly what combinations of bank transfers would take the longest time, so he could be safely out of town before his checks started to bounce. That was pre-Internet, but i bet it can be done today with international checks.

So you may be ok following the procedure you have, to wait for it to clear, but it may take longer than we think and in the end a cashier's check may not be better than a normal check (if it's counterfeit).

Here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3078479/)'s something about a fake bank with functioning Web site.

[sunburst]

Sunburst,
what browser/email program are you using?
BrewingBard got it right. The application is just called ..."mail".

It's totally separate from the mail program, but, FWIW, I'm using Firefox almost all the time for my browser. One of the most secure, I'm told, but I really don't know anything about it.

[Tom C]

Just remember, nothing is for free (except Rigel and Collings mandos). Nobody will pay more than what you are asking. Nobody will greatly under value an instrument for sale that is obviously worth more. If something sound too good to be true, it must be questioned.

[fredfrank]

And also, Tom, if you do accept a check that is way more than your asking price, give it a year to clear before shipping the mando or the change!

With their masterful command of the English language, it's hard to believe they don't rope in a lot more of us!

[Tom C]

DO NOT accept anything from the person if they offer more than your asking price. If they offer you more, obviously something is not right. -common sense.

[Keith Erickson]

Please be aware that this type of scam is running ramped out of Romania.

A buddy of my in NJ sells vintage cars. Someone got a hold of his e-bay account and posted that he had a vintage Corvette that selling for a song.

The purchaser wired the money to a bank in Romania with an American sounding name.

Reason #2 why I don't deal with e-bay.

[arbarnhart]

Thanks for the education. I was sadly misinformed about how it all works; not enough to have fallen for the overpay scam, but I might have accepted an exact payment and sent something if that ever came up. I wonder if there is a way to ask your bank to notify you when something is "fully cleared".

[Scott Tichenor]

A last follow-up on this email account. Yahoo shut it down early this morning less than 36 hours after I reported it which is decent response time given their size. Of course it's no big deal to shut down an account but if it was being actively used it serves to disrupt a bit of business on their end.

[HoGo]

Thanks for this thread, now I know more about these issues.
Now I wonder whether there is a safe way how to pay or get paid?
I've got stuff that I'd like to sell, but I cannot find any other way to get paid than checks or bank transfer (paypal doesn't offer their services in my country). I live in europe, so virtually all checks I'd get would be international, and I do not want to get cheated.
I spent two weeks going from one bank to another with no result...
Does anyone have answer?
Adrian

[Windflite]

Adrian,

The obvious idea would be to form a partnership with someone in the states (or possibly open a US checking account and use Paypal with that account?). #Alternatively, do you know anyone that you would trust as a business partner in the states? #If you want to avoid dealing with an individual, why not see if Stan@Elderly or Stan@Mandolin brothers might be interested in stocking/selling your plans. #Both have super reputations in the industry and would clearly provide your plans high visibility to your intended market. #Lastly, I spoke with another guy in my office who runs an ebay store and he suggested the possibility of listing with a ebay consignment store which could then forward the revenue (minus commission of course) to you after sales. #Maybe some kind of 'wax seal' on the plans or something to avoid unauthorized tampering???

Just my .02 #(and upfront apologies if this note appears to hijack this thread...)


Best Regards,
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Stephen Perry]

"Some of these checks, especially cashier checks, may clear initially and bomb later."

I know someone who took a cashier check from a well known bank in L.A. Calif, last year on a very expensive mandolin...shipped the mandolin...and you can guess the rest of the story. #Until the funds clear, cashiers checks are just like personal checks...easy to forge.

Be careful out there,
Best, fuzzy
We like these guys. I keep trying to get the checks in greater & greater amounts. So far the best is $11,000 for a $500 item. I'm hoping to get a fake $100,000 cashiers check sometime. Maybe they're on to me - I can't get any takers these days. I insist they overnight the check etc. Engage in pointless email jerking around. Claim I didn't get it, make them send another.

We collect them. Some are pretty good. Some are a hoot, they're so bad!

[steve V. johnson]

Steve, that's GREAT!!! LOL!!! Well done!

stv

[sailaway]

with all due respect to the learned members of the forum -- when a check 'clears' your bank, it means your bank is allowing you to withdraw against the deposit. It does not mean your bank has received the $ from the bank on which the cheque is drawn. i have heard of situations where a cleverly forged foreign cashiers check purporting to be properly drawn on a foreign account is deposited into a US bank account. The US bank gives the customer 9that's you) a conditional credit forthe amount of the check in 4 business days. -- then 4 months later the US bank learns that the foreign check is a forgery when it cannot collect the $ . Then your US bank will take the $ out of your account. and you are stuck with the loss. The scammers play on the time delay between your bank giving you a conditional credit and your bank finding out it can't collect the $ on the fake check. You are left holding the empty bag---as you have ' refunded ' the excess to the scammer by a real check drawn on your real $ in your real bank account....:angry:

[Keith Newell]

This is not good for my heartburn! I'm now getting worried. I sold an original "Presto" banjo tailpiece on eB_y a few weeks ago for a nice price and said I would ship U.S. only. I was away for the final bids and the winner is in Japan. His feed back is 20 and 100% but the last item is the only one you can see because of time constraints on how old the activity was. He spend 1K on a banjo flange piece.
He said he could pay Money order and it would take 10 days to get to me. His english is very Jinglish and hard to piece together. I am a very trusting person (so others have said after counting my many rip offs by fellow humanity) but he could be legit.
How can I make sure before I ship? I emailed him and charged him extra because of the hassel of international shipping and he was fine with that. In his own way he was polite and trying to calm my fears but wasn't the typical hype you see on some of these scams. I wish there was an instant transfer of funds nomatter where that could be secure and confirmed within a few minutes.
Keith Newell
http://www.newellmandolins.com

[Klaus Wutscher]

Keith,
I understand your problem and I cannot offer a solution, unfortunately.However, personally, if the guy is from Japan, I would not be too worried. Japan is the largest market for Bluegrass outside of the US. I never heard anything but good things about the Japanese community. My guess is that you will be fine. Nigeria, that would be another story of course.....
I tend to see things from another perspective because I am from europe and I missed quite a few opportunites in the past because people would not sell outside of the USA... I have even be accused of being a scammer only for inquiring the costs of shipping - for a $ 15.- strap on the cafe.

[Keith Newell]

I see your point also Kluas. It's to bad so few a number of crooks can mess up so many lives.
Keith

[Bill James]

Keith,
What about Paypal? Also, could you back out? You did specify US only.

[kyblue]

Keith,

I'm with Bill. I think I would insist on paypal too if I were going to transact internationally, but you should read up on what the 'gotchas' are there, too.

I bought a mando on eb** from an individual in AUS and paid via paypal, seemed to be the best way to handle for both of us.

Paula

[glauber]

I would use Paypal too. Just beware that Paypal has a reputation of being more on the side of buyers than sellers when there are disputes. Since i buy more than i sell there, i think this is a good thing, but YMMV. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif For example, if the guy pays, you send the mandolin, then he files a complaint, saying he never received the mandolin, you could be in trouble.

There are "escrow" services, like iescrow.com, escroll.com, etc. That looks like a safer way to go, but i have never used one.

[TommyK]

This is not good for my heartburn! I'm now getting worried. I sold an original "Presto" banjo tailpiece on eB_y a few weeks ago for a nice price and said I would ship U.S. only. I was away for the final bids and the winner is in Japan. His feed back is 20 and 100% but the last item is the only one you can see because of time constraints on how old the activity was. He spend 1K on a banjo flange piece.
#He said he could pay Money order and it would take 10 days to get to me. His english is very Jinglish and hard to piece together. I am a very trusting person (so others have said after counting my many rip offs by fellow humanity) but he could be legit.
# How can I make sure before I ship? I emailed him and charged him extra because of the hassel of international shipping and he was fine with that. In his own way he was polite and trying to calm my fears but wasn't the typical hype you see on some of these scams. I wish there was an instant transfer of funds nomatter where that could be secure and confirmed within a few minutes.
Keith Newell
http://www.newellmandolins.com
"How can I make sure before I ship?"

A.)Offer to have a friend / brother in the military / co-worker (make one up) who is in Japan, pick up the cash and / or do the exchange. #See how he reponds. #If he balks you walk.

B.) Require him to mail you Cash.. US Dollars. #Go over it with a fine tooth comb to be sure it's real money. #THEN send the part. #If he balks, you walk.

C.) Refer to your original stipulation... #"said I would ship U.S. only." #Put it up for auction again or sell to the next highest bidder in the US. #Better to get $500 cash than a promise for $1000 and an empty poke.


As far as banks go.. The rules are written in their favor for a reason... YOU SHOULD know your customers, your bank knows them even less. #By endorsing a check you are guaranteeing that it is a good check or YOU will cover the loss... It's the law. #

Pay attention here, folks, to the poster who told you it took 4 months for a bad foreign check to come back.

The rules are written in the bank's favor to protect ME and MY MONEY in MY ACCOUNT (and all the depositors) from a bank going bust due to a Nigerian with whom they /we / I have no business relationship.

[TommyK]

Quote (mandolinkgn @ Oct. 20 2005, 01:43)
...I emailed him and charged him extra because of the hassel of international shipping and he was fine with that. In his own way he was polite and trying to calm my fears but wasn't the typical hype you see on some of these scams."


He's either sincere or good... very, very good. They tell kids now a days that if someone approaches you and you get a feeling in your gut that says run.... RUN! Listen to your gut.

[swampstomper]

What about having him wire you the money via Western Union? They collect the cash up front at the desk (in Japan or even Nigeria), they send the order to their office in the US (or Europe) where you can pick up the cold hard cash (not counterfeit because WU is handling it). Make him pay the WU fee up front. This is an all-cash transaction. It's used a lot by the immigrant community in the US to send $$ back to the home folks in Nicaragua or whatever and it's foolproof -- at least I can't see any way for you to get burned.

[stevem]

Here's a very interest LA Times artcile on the Nigerian scammers...
I Will Eat Your Dollars (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-fg-scammers20oct20,1,1799691.story?track=mostemailedl ink)

Oops. You have to register to read it. The story talks about how there's a shop with a large group of hackers that work all night in silence trying to snag a gullible American. Most just delete the emails, but when they snag someone, a shout of joy goes up. They have a song. (419 is the code of the crime.)

"419 is just a game, you are the losers, we are the winners.

White people are greedy, I can say they are greedy

White men, I will eat your dollars, will take your money and disappear.

419 is just a game, we are the masters, you are the losers."

[cyeiser]

I once sold a very expensive piece of video gear to a buyer in Puerto Rico (Not a foreign country, but almost) on that auction site. We used an escrow service. It went well. A bit slow, but it made us both feel better. Look into escrow.