what is up with prices

[Roydw3]

Ok, I have been watching everyone's favorite auction site and have been for several weeks. The quality mandolins in my price range seem to be going for more than they are worth. There are a few at sites that are linked to this site that are much better deals.

I don't get it. Who is buying these mandolins? Like there are always MK's on the site. They sell for more than they cost from MF brand new. Or I have watched a few three year old or older Mid Mo's go for as much used as they sell for new.

What is the deal? DO the people buying this stuff not know that they can save hundreds of dollars elsewhere? Do they not know what they are buying? When one of the popular MK's is listed at about 450 on a couple of music store sites but the buy it now is 550 or 699 on the site, why would anyone buy it?

SOrry to ramble...I just can't get over the stupidity

Denny

[TonyP]

I hate to say it Denny, but that's the way all of ebay has gotten. It's a real head shaker. I hate to admit I've been going there since '95 when it was just a place for computer parts. You used to get some real good deals but since the advent of the Antiques Roadshow and the craze that junk is somehow "collectible" has I think made people a little nuts. I usually look for list prices before I look at ebay if I'm looking for something I'm not familiar with. I don't care what your buying anymore, once somebody starts bidding, lookout. I've heard the same thing though of the state and fed auctions where they sell drug confiscations and stuff. I don't know if it's shill's or what, or just mass stupidity http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[spoefish]

Can't speak to the acutions on the new stuff since I just skip over them, but for used instruments it is very spotty. #Sometimes good stuff goes cheap, other times so high I can't imagine what buyers are thinking. #Maybe phases of the moon or something. #I still buy and sell on the "auction site", but as always very carefully. #What really bothers me is how folks will overpay for an instrument with bad pictures, low feedback, and no return. #Arrrrgh, pretty scarry. #When possible I still prefer Elderly, Buffalo Bros., etc. - rarely have any problems, and if you are not happy you can return it. #And at least at Elderly I have gotten some great deals over the years. #And it is not just instruments - I do a lot with microscopes, and it is up-and-down in the same way. #But overall (maybe just lucky) I have done OK, got some nice instruments, and been able to sell those that I have gotten tired of. #For all its problems it is still better than before it existed. #My wife does not share this belief, and would point out that without the auction I might not have the collection I do.

Stephen

[arbarnhart]

I think it comes from a few factors - people browse and buy on impulse without enough research, they bid on a low starting price thinking they are going to this great deal and start imagining the item as theirs (see themselves playing the mando, for example), then when the bid goes up they can't let go of the dream. Another scenario is people who get frustrated by losing auction after auction and finally decide to bid high to end the cycle. I have done that for vintage hand tools, but was only overpaying a few dollars for something that was hard to find anywhere else.

[glauber]

Agreed. With eBay it's very important to figure out how much an item is worth to you beforehand, and never ever get into bidding wars. If it goes too high, let it go... To figure it out, i try to find out how much i would pay for a similar item at a retailer, and take off a few % from the price for the risk factor (i.e.: you pay more at a retailer, but you have less risk). I sell stuff on eBay sometimes, and it often surprises me how much people are willing to pay for things that, if it weren't for eBay, i would have just thrown away.

[Onesound]

All it takes is a couple of wealthy dudes to ruin it for the rest of us. Eb@y makes it easy for the collectors to soak up the majority of decent instruments at a price that most of us can't or arn't willing to spend. It's great for the seller, but keeps decent instruments out of the hands of the many who would appreciate them the most.

I have really gotten fed up with what goes on the auctions. Many of the winning bidders have hundreds of transactions to their names. What does that tell you?

[rhetoric]

I have indentified a phenomenon called "Permission Prices," at auctions -- particularly at gun auctions. Husband gets permission from wife to go to a gun auction. This is a difficult permission to acquire and requires spending lots of "marital chips." Frequently the permission access is gained on the grounds that auction prices will constitute a huge savings. So you get to the auction and guns are selling for outrageous sums (I've seen new guns at auction go for 10% over retail) all because husbands know they have permission to buy a gun and if they don't buy it at this auction they will have to get permssion all over again for some other auction, spend a bunch more chips, and risk familial peace. Spending more $ is expensive, but not as expensive as pleasing the wife and she won't know that a Remington 870 with a slug barrel isn't worth $650.

This may transfer to on-line bidding for mandolins inasmuch as you can tell your wife, "Thank goodness I got such a good deal on ebay, right honey?"

[Jim Garber]

It is very simple... all you need in any auction is two people competing to see who is more insane about the item in question. At some point the competitive instinct kicks in and all rational motive disappears. At that point it is just "I want it and I hate that other guy for trying to beat me out of it."

Simple.

Jim

[Tom C]

Not everybody has a Mandolin Bros within an hours drive like I do. So when somebody sees a mandolin they want on ebay, they sometimes will pay whatever it takes. And if they earn 150-200K a year, paying $500 over what it is worth is not a big deal. -they got their mando. But it seems like Howie Banfield outbids the everybody for the Gib*ons. He must be a dealer/collector.

[billkilpatrick]

while competition and testesterone are certainly a part of it, rhetoric's "permission prices" analysis is right on the button ...

my "significant other" is not tuned in 5ths but sometimes she's not too sure.

- bill

[sgarrity]

If you watch ebay you can get a great deal. A Weber Fern just sold for $2500 and a Collings MF just sold for about $2700. Both very good prices for those mandolins. Good deals are still out there, you just have to be diligent.

Shaun

[pickinNgrinnin]

Howie Banfield is a dealer/collector.

In regard to Ebay prices, there's a sucker born every minute.

However, not all Ebay prices are insane. See <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Weber-Fern-Mandolin-like-Gibson-F-5_W0QQitemZ7355405047QQcategoryZ10179QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQ
%3Cbr%3E%3Cbr%3ErdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> auction as an example. A Weber Fern for $2450? Someone has to be laughing about stealing this one. Where were you guys when this auction went down?

[kudzugypsy]

its getting like that in nearly every area of commerce. i see the same examples you folks do and others. one example is the good ole' pawn shop. years ago they would be full of bargins - now, i see stuff (not just instruments) but tv's you could buy brand new at circuit city for $20 cheaper than they have listed...now even they think everything is gold. plus, they have become retail outlets - at least 80% of their inventory in musical instruments is new very low budget chinese junk - with used low budget junk making up the other 20% - when they do get a nice instrument, its often 10% more than you could get it new at musicians friend. i've had a long relationship with one shop that deals in instruments, and they have 75 guitars in the store, and i think maybe 1 or 2 might be non-asian - and they are asking far more than they are worth.

its true, people go bonkers on ebay - i have just decided to sell my *junk* on there and let it ride - the odds of winning items is so rare that it is a waste of time. even on items i would REALLY like, i just sit back and see what they bring...its astounding. its becoming cheaper to buy stuff outright from gruhns or mandolin bros. than ebay!!

[Brad Weiss]

In my view $985 is not a lot to pay for a cylinderback (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7354477967&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1), considering I don't think you can find one in any condition for less than 2k. #I think eBay has gone two ways - overpriced mass produced stuff that is available for the same price or better elsewhere, and stuff that flies under the radar and can be had for a good price. #To me, that's just a function of the volume: there's a ton of stuff out there now, many more people looking for known quantities, and a smaller pool of quite good stuff that is searching for a market. #Note: this is NOT supply and demand- #there's a smaller supply of cylinderbacks than MK's; it's about connosieurship and consumption. #I won't digress, but I will say I've generally made (a bit of) money, on stuff I've purchased and then sold from eBay...

[DryBones]

a lot of theose MK's are actually being sold by a store and they just keep rerunning those auctions with a high reserve price. they are not truly an auction, more like just cheap advertising for the store.

[arbarnhart]

I have heard stories of people scanning the Big Lots (or other liquidators) flyer and setting a start price above the sale price, a BIN even higher and not even bothering to buy the item until they get activity. They generally get it. I think the real deals on mandos and other stringed instruments are ones that need TLC, but that is also the danger zone.

[spoefish]

Well, I am one of the guilty parties with over a thousand transactions in the last 10 years. #Most of these were tools, radio parts, microscope parts, misc. junk, and about 40 instruments - most of the instruments made there way back to the auction site eventually - and I think on instruments I have about broken even. #And even in the last year there have been some great deals that are still around the house (and will likely stay) - 97 J-45 for $710 (very minor cosmetic issue, and one of the best J-45 guitars I have played), 99 (but new) 00-15 with the wrong case (traded it locally for the right case - and this is the best of 3 00-15 Martins I have owned) for $400 on a BIN, 90 Deering Sierra (with gloss finish, not the current satin, and upgraded tuners and tailpiece) for $735 (BIN again), and my current favorite, a 2003 custom (highly flamed maple, sunburst, gloss finish, upgraded hardware) Weber Hyalite in new condition for $850 (and this was the second time around for the Weber - and is the mandolin my son wants to inherit when I am called away). #Not to say that I do not also find some good deals with Elderly and Don Zepp - or local music stores. #But I am getting to the point that I need to spend more time playing (my daughter had started the fiddle, so I am playing along with her as she learns, great fun). #You can always quit, and no one is making you bid that high. #Cheers.

Stephen

[steve V. johnson]

One of the greatest things about eBay is the information that's there, not just info about items, tho that can be cool, too, but one can track the sales of stuff over time. And, of course, there is stuff for sale there that -I'd- never see otherwise.

I've had a good time trading there and when we've had stuff to sell it's gone well, but not crazy. I think that if you look at good stuff over time (not the wild market in cheapo Asian musical instruments), most of it stays pretty close to a sane value.
I watch audio recording gear as well as instruments. The cheapest stuff and the very most expensive stuff stay pretty insane.
Things that are perceived as both high quality and rare stay insane, but the real, working-grade tools can be had or sold at pretty good prices. Getting a good deal does require some research and most of all, patience.

We've learned some interesting stuff... We were selling off our motorcycling gear and my wife's stuff (helmet, riding suit) didn't sell until we put her picture in the auctions, then it sold, after some steady and sane bidding, at about 10% over its real value.

Thanks for the Permission Theory! That;s great!!!

stv

[kyblue]

Still a few good deals out there, but I think you have to be careful. I think I got very lucky recently with my Duff 2 pt purchase. But, I would never have bid on a mandolin in Australia if I had not met Paul and been able to email him to get him to vouch for the mandolin and the seller. Got the mandolin for $2K, Paul said he wouldn't make for less than $4200 today. It's in perfect condition, and I love it. Still not sure I would bid on any mandolin unseen, unplayed and unreturnable without someone to vouch for it.

[Bob A]

Just scored what hope is a quality Italian bowlback for $113 on the bay. The last one I saw from this maker sold for a grand, thru a dealer.

On the other hand, I chased a fine Calace bowlback up to 2700 euros with a few foreign buyers in hot pursuit. While these Calace instruments are a bit hard to find, a few months later four of them popped up and went for about 2K apiece. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.

It's always best to remember Bob's Law (even if I break it): For any ebay purchase, the harder you chase the object of desire, if you win it, the greater likelihood another will appear a week later and sell for half what you paid.

[steve V. johnson]

I like that Bob's Law. I'm watching it now, with a bit of studio gear that I just bought. The one up today looks like it will go for less than I just paid. I guess the corollary to Bob's Law is to stop watching after you've made a purchase... &lt;GG&gt;

I just saw the classic example of auction madness, on a mandolin, yet.

There's a perfectly nice, perfectly ordinary Collings MT that has gone from its $500. start price to $1450. in the first day and a half of the auction duration. This appears to be because three folks have been bidding it up. Amazing. My impression is that these (admittedly wonderful) mandolins sell in the $1600 range, usually, so this seller must be pretty darned happy with four and a half days to go!

That's pretty nuts... But I wish more of the same on any of you who have stuff to sell... &lt;GGGG&gt;

stv

[Onesound]

After I win the Collings MT2 I won't have to watch E@ay anymore! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kyblue]

It's always best to remember Bob's Law

That's another good thing about my Duff purchase. It's the only 2 pt Paul has made. So, no danger of Bob's law kicking in!!!!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Tom C]

kyblue seems to have gotten a once in a lifetime deal.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Don't forget that sometimes you have to think like a moron to find those deals

Like Weyman instead of Weymann

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLIN-2-OLD-WASHBURN-WEYMAN-BRUNO-ETC_W0QQitemZ7355680187QQcategoryZ10179QQssPageNam eZW



DVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Weyman</a>

or this Giutar

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/b-c-rich-giutar-bronze-series_W0QQitemZ7357329194QQcategoryZ33035QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQ



cmdZViewItem" target="_blank">giutar</a>

or this valuable part that will never be found

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-CHEVEROLET-CAMERO-FENDER-Z-28-EMBLEM_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34204QQitemZ4581 74420

4QQrdZ1" target="_blank">emblem</a>

oh well, it was a "Camero" part

[Jim Garber]

Darryl,
Is that why you have eBay's search set to "loid lore madeline"?

Jim

[blammo]

Darryl,
Is that why you have eBay's search set to "loid lore madeline"?

Jim
hahaha…and don't forget to search the "tiny guitars" category

[glauber]

Just recently there was a very nice mandolin there advertised as "some sort of smallish tenor guitar". I thought it was very interesting the guy would know tenor guitar but not mandolin.

[kudzugypsy]

that is VERY true about the spelling issues - my good friend is a genius at finding them, especially neumann mics and other high end studio gear - like the seller cant read it right off the item.
a little knoledge can go a long way too - the 1939 L5N i got 3 years ago was listed as a 50's L5 - i knew it wasnt from the old gibson script and the RARE kluson amber button tuners - they only made those in 39-40.

i really dont see how the banjo guys can buy anything on ebay...you got at least a dozen "pre-war" banjos on there at any given time....ok, what % if any is actually a pre-war part? good luck tring to find out from the photo.

[mrmando]

I think half of those banjos are pre-Iraq war!

I paid $370 for my National Triolian tenor on eBay. People seem to want $1200-2500 for them these days. Same kind of deal on my Wenzl Fuchs viola (400), Gibson K2 mandocello (1200) and Bacorn 5-string emando (460). eBay bin veddy, veddy good to me.

But, of course, I do have to search through tons of overpriced junk to find this stuff.

[gnelson651]

I've also suspected that if some items are bidding too low, the seller will bid up his price using an alias.

[RolandTumble]

One of the guitar magazines (I think it's "...Player", but it might be "Vintage..."), has an occaisional column called "Will Ray's eBay Strategies", where the named writer (& monster Tele* player) discusses a recent purchase. He usually talks about most aspects of the deal--the search, description & photos, bid process, shipping experience and received instrument (which, obviously, is usually one of those oversized, six-string mandolins, but is sometimes an amp or other gear). In a recent column, he opined that the best deals come from jumping on an underpriced BIN--and also pointed out that you've got to be the first to find it.

All told, I've had far more good experiences than bad, on both sides of the deal--mostly, but not exclusively, instruments of one sort or another. I sometimes wonder what people must be smoking to bid (or set opening bids), as high as they do, and some of the "descriptions" are just a scream. I just pass those by....

Glenn--"shill bidding" is officially Not Allowed, and can lead to account suspension if proven. Doesn't mean it never happens, of course, but it's not something that I assume is going on.


[Edit]: Fixed a spelling mistake that slipped through my Previews. Kind of ironic, given foregoing posts....