D7 vs. D

[jasona]

Hi all,

I just got the CD of an old Pogues album Red Roses for Me, and it includes several bonus tracks not on my cassette, including some nice mando-heavy covers of Leaving of Liverpool and The Wild Rover, which I immediately set out to learn to play. I am using first position chords, with as many open strings as I can to 1) make it easy to change chords seamlessly and 2) get that wide open sound. In the latter tune (key of G), the chord chart I found calls for a D7--in the past I have just played a D there. When should I throw in the dominant 7th chord, and when should I just skip it? Using a four fingered chord in the midst of all of those ringing other chords seems odd.

(Another quick question: the 2nd in the key of C is an E right? Throwing in a half measure E in the middle of a C and F or G is really difficult--and I hear from the CD that the Pogues just skip it--or they didn't use the same chord chart for Leaving of Liverpool I found!)

[John Flynn]

The dominant seventh chord uses dissonance to create "motion." That is, it's telling the listener that the tune is about to go somewhere, generally to the sub-dominant chord (4th) or the root chord. So I would use it when the chord progression is about to resolve. Another answer could be to use it when the Pogues use it on the CD. BTW, you said the first position D7 is a four fingered chord. It doesn't have to be. If you play it 2-0-3-2 (bass to treble), it is three-fingered and you have that open D string which makes the chord sound more open.

The second in the key of C is D. The E would be the third.

[JimD]

Mando Johnny is absolutely right about dissonance and motion.

But consider this as well:

D = D, F#, A

D7 = D. F#. A, C

So, think of #D as a chord that can substitute freely for D7 but not necessarily the other way around. Bottom line is to do something that sounds good. I find myself less likely to use 7th chords in some styles than others.

Ultimately the ear must be the guide.

and , yes, the second of C is D -- or more specifically D minor. The third is E minor.

[Don Christy]

Another easy 3 finger D7 is (from bass to treble) 545x, which gives you the C F# D, but you don't get the open string ringing or the 5th interval.
Don

[Peter Hackman]

Hi all,

I just got the CD of an old Pogues album Red Roses for Me, and it includes several bonus tracks not on my cassette, including some nice mando-heavy covers of Leaving of Liverpool and The Wild Rover, which I immediately set out to learn to play. I am using first position chords, with as many open strings as I can to 1) make it easy to change chords seamlessly and 2) get that wide open sound. In the latter tune (key of G), the chord chart I found calls for a D7--in the past I have just played a D there. When should I throw in the dominant 7th chord, and when should I just skip it? Using a four fingered chord in the midst of all of those ringing other chords seems odd.

(Another quick question: the 2nd in the key of C is an E right? Throwing in a half measure E in the middle of a C and F or G is really difficult--and I hear from the CD that the Pogues just skip it--or they didn't use the same chord chart for Leaving of Liverpool I found!)
My view is: a D dominant is always a D7, possibly
altered or emebellished with "higher
intervals" like the 9th or 13th.

When I was playing
some kind of Bluegrass
I rarely used four note chords, so usually
the D7 came out as d f# c on the three lower strings.

c f# d or c f# e
is a nice thing to throw in when soloing. Avoid having the
tritone interval on the highest strings.

It's much easier to fit three note chords together,
besides there's usually some other instrument
taking care of chords and roots. You don't need
four copies of the root!

I understand you're playing some kind of British or
Celtic music that may call for this ringing open string
sound, otherwise it's something to be avoided.


When playing solos, I often find I'm muting strings,
should a phrase land, or change strings, on
an unfretted note.

[JimD]

My view is: a D dominant is always a D7, possibly
altered or emebellished with "higher
intervals" like the 9th or 13th.


Well, this depends on what kind of music you are playing. In jazz and various types of popular music, sure.

The classical theory definition of a dominant would be a triad or seventh (or 9th, 11th, 13th) that is on the fifth degree of the scale. The 7th is not a requirement for a dominant.

In celtic music, I often find the 7th to be inappropriate sounding (to my ears) -- of course it depends on context. There is no rule but the ear.


I understand you're playing some kind of British or
Celtic music that may call for this ringing open string
sound, otherwise it's something to be avoided.

I find this to be a bit "Bluegrass chauvinistic" . There are many styles and situations in which a ringing sound will be appropriate.

We shouldn't apply the aesthetics of one style to all.

[Peter Hackman]

I find this to be a bit "Bluegrass chauvinistic" . There are many styles and situations in which a ringing sound will be appropriate.

We shouldn't apply the aesthetics of one style to all.
Of course, being careful with words, I said "otherwise".
I have a couple of schottisches and a Scottish-sounding piece
in the key of D that make extensive use of ringing d's and a's

'I find this to be a bit "Bluegrass chauvinistic".We shouldn't apply the aesthetics of one style to all.'

Well, I'm not. I don't think "applying the aesthetics"
of any one "genre" has much to do with music-making.


Back to the original topic. The beauty of three-note chords
apart from voice-leading is their versatility.
You can strum them, chop them, tremulate them or
just let them ring.

[JimD]

I don't think "applying the aesthetics"
of any one "genre" has much to do with music-making.

This is my point exactly. The ear has to be the final arbiter and different styles require different approaches.