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Sellars
Jan-20-2004, 4:20am
Hi all!

Lately I decided to dive a bit more into Irish music. to be honest I found it a lot harder than I expected, so here I am, asking for advice. I'm stuck with a couple of questions:

1. How to begin? are there some must-know songs?

2. Are there any good books/dvds around that can help me?

3. Which CDs should I look out for? (right now I like things like the Dubliners and the Pogues etc. the best)

4. Do you have any advice about how to "train" for a jam session, i.e. what are the standards, which scales should I concentrate on?

Any other advice or information would be helpful

rhanks! Roel

Steve L
Jan-20-2004, 8:47am
Welcome Roel,

If you are just starting to get into the music, I would go back and listen to the 70's revival bands like DeDanan, Planxty, The Bothy Band and work your way up to modern traditional bands such as Dervish, Lunasa, Altan...many, many others. You should also check out recordings of pipers such as Leo Rowsome, fiddlers like Michael Colman, Andy Mcgann, Paddy Reynolds, Sean Nos singer Joe Heany. You really want to internalize the rhythm and the subtlties of the ornamentation.

You might want to see if there are pub sessiuns near where you live and go and listen...if there's a slow or beginner sessiun, all the better. Do you read standard notation? Our own Aidan Crossey has tabbed a great number of Irish tunes which are available on this site. I would say listening carefully is job one and I'm sure otheres will have many helpful suggestions for you.

How long have you been playing and what have you played? Once we know more about where you come from, we can point you down the road a little better.

All the best,
Steve

Sellars
Jan-20-2004, 9:10am
Hi steve,

Thanks for the suggestions! all those names I don't know, but I have noted them down, and will sort 'em out!

I've been playing my mando for about three quarters of a year now, and I have concentrated mainly on bluegrass and old-time during that time.

I just began learning to read standard notation.

So which tunes would you suggest to begin with? I have a lot of Tabledit files from the comando list, but I can't seem to find that nice beginning tune.

Roel

Bob DeVellis
Jan-20-2004, 9:28am
Roel

There are two intersecting but distinct traditions in Irish music. One is Irish folk, the other Irish traditional. Most of the drinking songs are Irish folk. This stuff burgeoned after the success of the Clancy Brothers on the international folk circuit of the 1960s. Irish traditional tends to be oriented more towards tunes (i.e., instrumentals) than songs (i.e., vocals). The tunes, for the most part, were originally dance music: jigs, reels, hornpipes, etc. Most sessions I've encountered are oriented toward the traditional tunes, with the occasional song thrown in for good measure.

The approach to the different types is quite different. Songs lend themselves to accompaniment in a way that tunes don't. Tunes are traditionally played in unison, except for the arrangements that have evolved from the band tradition inspirted by the Bothy Band and others in the '70s. Even there, accompaniment isn't usually exactly a harmonic accompaniment but more a case of rhythmic background and brief counter-melodies. I love the Bothy Band and similar groups but their style isn't what you'll encounter at a session unless the same group has been playing togher for a very long time.

So, bottom line, for folk, learning the somewhat unorthodox chord changes (very few full chords; more droney intervals) will work well. For traditional tunes, there's no substitute for learning the specific tunes.

I recommend finding a local session and just going to listen once or twice. Ask if it's okay to tape them (it usually is, but courtesy dictates that you ask). Then, learn one or two simpler tunes. Hornpipes are often played at less of a frenzied pace than reels. But in the beginning, don't worry about which tune is which type. Just choose one or two that sound fairly accessible and that you'd like to learn.

The key to acceptance at a session is deference. When in doubt, don't play. When you do play, don't play so loudly as to drown anybody else out. You'll probably be asked to start a tune at some point and the players will usually pace themselves to you. If you can play that tune with the right feel, even at a snail's pace, you'll probably be more highly respected than if you rush through it and lose the feel.

We could all tell you our tunes, but you should really learn the ones that are played at your local sessions. Actually, some tunes are so common as to be cliches and even if a good musician plays them, eyes tend to roll. I've heard experienced musicians tell beginners that they're better off not learning those tunes at all. I think that's a bit extreme, but if you can learn a less common tune that the locals play and that is still fairly accessible on the mandolin, there's really no down side. If you show up at a session and others don't know it, the'll enjoy learning it from you. I remember learning a tune called the White Blanket on concertina, a very simple little tune that I could only play at a snail's pace. But everytime I played it, people wanted to learn it because most hadn't heard it before. As a beginner, I found myself teaching that tune to some very experienced players, which was a huge kick.

Hope there are a few worthwhile notions to be found somewhere in this rant.

steve V. johnson
Jan-20-2004, 12:12pm
Good advice from Bob DeVellis! Especially about session etiquette!

There are two good 'practice sets' of CDs that I know of...

One is available from Homespun Tapes, and is called something like '121 Favorite Irish Session Tunes'and was done by whistle player L.E. McCullough. This one has four CDs with a book in standard notation and guitar chords. They play thru each tune twice, once slowly and then again at speed. Sometimes these aren't very different, but the 'full' tempos are not terribly fast.

The other is by the Waltons company, who sell lots of folk music instruction books. This one also has four CDs and a book of notation & chords. The tunes are a bit less common (in my experience) but still a real good representation of common repertoire. They only go thru the tunes once, but with a CD player, you can, of course, loop any tune as much as you like.

While these are great ways to get familiar with the tunes, there is no substitute for playing with people, because the music is not static, but dynamic. Each player brings their own voice to the music and the variations, from microscopic to structural, are myriad.

My wife has played Irish trad for years and finally, three years ago, got me to join in sessions. Now I am addicted and immersed, and we are about to go back to Ireland for our third trip, just to play.

Have some fun!

steveV

steve V. johnson
Jan-20-2004, 12:14pm
Woops...

The Waltons collection is called "Ireland's Best Session Tunes."

I'm not sure where it's available, I received it as a gift, but I'd guess that Elderly Instruments sells it, or a Google search will probably get you right to a source.

Slainte!

Sellars
Jan-21-2004, 5:16am
Thanks for all the advice!

Yesterday I started learning Fair Haired Boy from the comando list. It takes some time to get adjusted to the rythm, which is drastically different from Bluegrass, but after a while I got the hang of it.

Any more advice or recommendations would be welcome though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Brent
Jan-21-2004, 7:44am
I've been learning tunes from Steve Kaufman's "4-hour celtic workout." On the CD, the tune is played with lead and accompaniment, then twice more with just accompaniment. This is done at a slow, as well as a faster pace. There are 50 tunes, which is a few years of tune learning for me.
Mandolin Picker's Fakebook also has lots of tunes with fairly basic arrangements.

aimee
Jan-21-2004, 12:01pm
Fair haired boy is the first trad tune I learned, if whistle counts.

We all hope you enjoy branching out a bit. Best wishes.

withak
Jan-21-2004, 3:30pm
There is a book from Mel Bay called 100 Essential Irish Session Tunes that has a good sampling of common tunes in settings that are very straightforward with only a minimum of ornamentation marked.

Rod Freeland
Jan-21-2004, 4:03pm
Briefly, throwing in my 2 cents: This is the Mandolin Cafe Message Board at its best!! #A new player asks for help and half a day later 6 or more knowledgeable mandolinists have encouraged, counseled and applauded Roel for his efforts. #I have no better nuggets to add, but am grateful to all of you.

Now can someone teach me how to think of the next choice tune for a medley and how to make a seamless transition to it? #Rod Freeland, Berkeley, CA

dane
Jan-22-2004, 10:24am
Here's where I'd start:

BBC Virtual Session (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/sessions/)

Lots of good tunes, mostly standards, played at a moderate pace by some very fine musicians, with sheet music for everything. #And it's all free of charge!

Aidan Crossey
Jan-22-2004, 11:20am
Roel ...

Your question is difficult to answer, because Irish music is such a vast church. Jigs, reels, polkas, hornpipes, mazurkas, barndances, airs, waltzes, marches ... and then there's the style thing ... do you aspire to be a Speedy Gonzalez or does the more laidback style of, for example, Martin Hayes push your buttons?

Irish music is a life pursuit, basically and therefore to do justice to your question would require a lot of words ... a LOT of words ...

I attempted something like that last time someone in your position asked a similar question and I'm afraid I might have lost them (and myself and every other poor craytur who tried to read my post) by the time I ran out of steam.

The essence of getting under the skin of this music is to listen and play. Don't try to ape what you're hearing. But listen to the subtleties, the inflections, the nuances. What sets X's playing apart from another's? Which has the most effect on you?

Don't confine your listening to mandolin or mando-family recordings. Thgere aren't many classic mandolin albums around. Of those that are, I rate Dan Beimborn's "Shatter The Calm", Michael Kerry's "The Rocky Road" and Kevin Macleod's "Polbain To Oranmore". All three players have very different styles. Dan's a BIG player ... loads of sustain, loads of jaw-dropping triplets; Kerry's more of an introvert, but no less of an artist, he coaxes the tune rather than takes control of it; Kevin ... well, he's the man when you want to delve into the vastness of Scottish music, which it's as well to be familiar with, even if all you want to do is play Irish music since there's a lot of swapping goes on at the fringes of both traditions.

Try learning "The Lark In The Morning" as one of your next tunes. It's in the tab archive here. A quintessential double-jig (i.e. 6/8 time) in four parts, it's almost a blueprint for all sucessful major-key jigs. Fairly easy to learn and to play and yet considered one of the big jigs that the strutters and swaggerers like to play at fleadhanna when they're competing for county or All-Ireland titles.

Others here will do their best to help. But all will find it difficult since there's no one entry-point into the music. But all will be rooting for you and hope that this stuff gets its hooks into you. Cos when it does, you'll probably remain well and truly hooked for life!

Sellars
Jan-22-2004, 3:49pm
Thanks a lot all!

I'm really enthusiastic about your enthousiasm http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Offcourse I'm not looking for the definite answer to Irish music, but I was trying to find the entrance to the road of exploring this music. You all helped a lot!

I went to the library today and came back with 10 cds, all of which were recommended to me above. I'm thrilled about all these new discoveries!

Slightly different question:

Is there any good book I should read that deals with the history of irish folk and music? For instance, I have seen the Rough guide to irish music. is it any good?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Roel

Steve L
Jan-22-2004, 4:06pm
I would recommend "The Companion to Irish Traditional Music" by Fintan Vallely (a veritable goldmine of information) and "Celtic Music: A Complete Guide" by June Skinner Sawyers. I would also advise that whenever you see Aidan has posted, read it immediately! (no slight intended to Bob D, Dagger, KMMando, or any of the other great players here)

An arbitrary handful of tunes :

Reels: # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
Primrose Lass
Sligo Maid
Rolling in the Ryegrass
McLeods's
Silver Spear
Drowsy Maggie

Jigs:
Gillian's apples
Kesh
Hag at the Churn
Killavel
Rose in the Heather

Hornpipes:

Harvest Home
King of the Fairies
Boys of Bluehill

Slip Jigs:
Drops of Brandy
Give us a Drink of Water
Fig for a Kiss

Just a place to start...good luck.

Ajvessey
Jan-22-2004, 9:06pm
I downloaded a package of Celtic tabs for table edit, and have had a blast browsing through them, both to hear ones I recognize, and to try to pick ones that I could start learning. I'm almost brand new to the mando, so alot of jigs/reels are very intimidating to me, however I've had much success with the Star of the County Down. It's a fairly popular song, and basically it only consists of a few different notes, and it doesn't move too fast to be overwhelming. I can't remember where I got the celtic compilation for tabedit, but someone here might know. Or if you want, you could contact me on AIM, my screen name is AlexHatesAIM, and I could send it to you.

Sellars
Jan-23-2004, 3:34am
Hi ,

Thanks for your suggestion. I allready have the celtic files from comando, If you look here (http://www.co-mando.com/music/tabledit/index.cfm), you will also find the collection for jigs and reels&Hornpipes, etc.


R

RolandTumble
Jan-24-2004, 3:20am
Another book that I consider essential is "Last Night's Fun", by...darn, it's escaping me & I don't have my copy to hand. It's more about the heart of the music than the bones.

For a starter tune, try Tobin's (Favorite). I suspect it might be one of the eye-rollers (see bobd's post on 1/20), at least in some locales, but it's a fun tune & fairly easy to learn (warning--there's lots of different B parts floating around for it. Be prepared for surprises).

Richard H
Jan-24-2004, 11:01pm
Sorry for taking this in a slightly different direction but I was contacted today about doing our usual St.Patrick's Day gig at a local Irish pub. Bear in mind I'm in the West Indies and the patrons will be visitors (mainly Irish) of all ages (mainly middle).

I find the easiest audiences to please are those that (a) are drunk; (b) know the songs and can sing along.

So my question is: what sort of tunes do the modern Irish know and like to sing on St. Pat's Day? The trads - Danny Boy, Galway Bay, W. Colonial Boy, Star of the CD, Mountains of Morne, Whiskey in the Jar, Wild Rover, Irish Rover, 7 (or is it 9?) Days Drunk, 40 Shades of Green etc. go down well but we usually don't have enough of them.

Most of the fiddle tunes we attempt - Speed the Plough, some of the hornpipes, even St.Patrick's Day in the Morning -leave them looking blank like they've never heard 'em.

I hear a number of American and Australian (like 'Pub With No Beer') popular songs worked over as "Irish country" or "Irish drinking songs". Would these be the way to go?

Mark Normand
Jan-30-2004, 11:21pm
Great timing on this thread for me.
I've been playing bluegrass and jamming the last 6mons. since starting mando about 1 year ago from scratch. Last night I attended a new local celtic jam where Michael Kerry (anybody know him?) and friends were playing, I was awestruck! I asked a few questions, and was hooked! Mike later graciously gave me a free copy of his Rocky Road CD, and I discoved Jackie Tar on it, one of my favorites. Together with it and JayBuckey's version and tabs, I was re-inspired, and now I am playing the whole thing tonight for the first time! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif


And that BBC virtual thing is very nice and fun.
After perusing that for a few minutes, I see some patterns.
Are reels generally in 4/4 time?
Jigs in 6/8 time?

Sorry for the rant, but this is so cool, having a blast! Especially since I start fiddle lessons on Sunday. Oh why didn't I start this years ago...

MidlifeMando
Jan-31-2004, 11:49am
Roland -- The author of "Last Night's Fun" is Ciaran Carson and, yes, that's a good book to read. He's also done several volumes of poetry...most recently a translation of Dante's Inferno. [Granta Books]

As for beginning tunes, I recently joined a group of musicians who meet once a week and are working on material for a Saint Patrick's day performance at the local school and a summer outdoor performance on Angel Island. It's an ideal mix of beginners like myself, and accomplished performers with many years of experience. The method of the session encourages us to learn tunes by ear. Here's the six we're working on:

Connaughtman's Rambles
Swallowtail Jig
Top of Cork Road
Plantxy Hewlett
Planxty Fanny Powers
Sheebeg and Sheemore

I'm sure there's a few session "Stairway to Heavens" in that list, but there's challenges in almost every one of them.

RolandTumble
Jan-31-2004, 5:54pm
mnormand--

You've got it.

Reels are in 4/4 (though they're sometimes written out in cut time (2/2) or even in 2/4).

Jigs are in 6/8 (unless they're slip jigs, which are in 9/8).

The meter is part of the definition of the tune type....


MidlifeMando--thanks. Mr. Carson's name came back to me after I'd posted, but I still wasn't sure....

pickinBob
Feb-01-2004, 8:55pm
Roel
This is a great thread you started because I'm in the same place you are. #I got Dan Beimborn's Shatter the Calm and was totally blown away, addicted, hooked whatever you weant to call it. #I started working on one of Dan's songs and it is a blast. #Just by coincidence, my instrutor had started me playing Soldiers Joy, Arkanas Travlor, Fishers Hornpipe. #Of which Fishers is my favorite.

th one problem I have with the music is that it has kicked in a good case of MAS for a nice celtic mando. #What shall I do?!

Steve L
Feb-01-2004, 10:53pm
Bob, if you've already got a decent F style, you can play Irish/Scottish music on there just fine. If I were you, I would resist buying a new mando and save some dough because if you are really interested in this music, you'll be buying a lot of imported cds. You will also want, at some point, an octave, and a bouzouki, and a cittern, and a 10 string, and a tenor banjo, and...........

pickinBob
Feb-02-2004, 10:36pm
Steve L

Sounds like you have been here before. #This is a hard thing to resist the desire to want to dive right in. #Right now I am just hooked and want to get the rythm foundations down but get a little frustrated with my instrument because it is more treble than bass and I want to get "backing" #down before I take "the melody spot light"

I guess cd's are a cheap fix.....

Back to the topic.....

Does anyone know where to get a hold of old Irish hymns? I have a couple but would like to learn more to play in church.

ebert5150
Feb-16-2004, 1:06pm
Im also new to Celtic music an really loved the BBC virtual session site. Thanks

danmozell
Feb-23-2004, 3:01pm
For a mandolin specific source, you might try my book "The Incomplete Celtic Mandolin."

http://www.danmozell.com/d-mozell.htm

Bugs
Feb-24-2004, 8:33pm
Here is an excellent site http://www.traditional-music.org/. A great study in ornamentation as some tunes are shown in 5 or more variations (including sheet music and midi). A regular stop for me just in terms of variety.
Cheers
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

jmcgann
Feb-28-2004, 9:01am
Listen like crazy to as many fiddlers as possible.

Get to know and love Michael Coleman, Seamus Connolly, James Kelly, Denis Murphy, Tommy Peoples, etc.

Spend 2.5% of your time with written music and 97.5% listening and absorbing.

Get a digital slow-downer for your computer and listen at 1/2 speed. And slower. Listen what's happening in the ornamentation.

Listen to pipers, box players, flute players, etc.

Listen to Mick Moloney on mandolin.

Listen like crazy. You can't play this style authentically without being steeped in the tradition.

Strathspey
Feb-28-2004, 10:42am
I agree with John. Learning Irish music without immersing yourself in it is akin to learning a language out of a book without hearing it spoken. Irish music has it's own diction, dialects and its own regional accents. You really have to learn it aurally. Written music can never exactly represent this "language" and only the rare and exceptional person can get the right without first absorbing a lot of the music from "fluent" players.

I hope I get it right some day!

Matt

TimPiazza
Mar-03-2004, 1:13am
Hi Folks, I'm new here. I was directed this way by a member of the comando mail-list in response to a question about Irish music. I can see this is a dangerous place--yet another thing I can do with the time that is not spent playing or working. Yikes!

Anywho, among my idiosyncratic musical interests is Irish music. I'm here to learn, and will probably be just reading most of the time. I've been listening to Irish music all my life--the dominant heritage in my family is not the one that I got my surname from. I haven't been at playing the tunes that long, having only started a few years ago, so I probably know only about 50 or so by name and maybe another 50 I know well enough to play when I hear them. I'm now at the point where I'm listening carefully to the nuances--where the accents are, and seeking to correct the small errors in direction my fingers have taken when not following my ears very well. I join a small session a couple times a month with players of varying caliber, but all pleasant to play with.

A music shop keeper in Dublin once advised me to stick to one instrument like a wife and not waste my time fooling with others. At the time I was shopping for a second guitar, and he was talking me out of it. I failed to heed his advice and now I'm splitting my time between mandolin, octave, tenor banjo, high D whistle, guitar, fiddle, 5 string banjo (nice old Windsor) and C#/D button accordion. So that's who I am, and perhaps I won't be a complete mystery when I ask questions. For what i's worth, I'm just starting out on the box, so I can't even squeeze one entire tune out yet.

Lately I've been drawn to 5-6 part tunes, like King of the Faeries, Strayaway Child and Kid on the Mountain. I'd like to learn some others as well. Can the esteemed members of this message board offer up some tunes that have four or more parts? Thanks!

Tim (Barry) Piazza

Aidan Crossey
Mar-03-2004, 4:01am
If you're after big jigs - i.e. those with four parts or more, try The Lark In The Morning, Langstrom's Pony, The King Of The Pipers, The Gold Ring. Or ... a really big tune ... Morgan Rattler!

Bob DeVellis
Mar-03-2004, 9:26am
There's always the venerable Bucks of Oranmore in 5 parts. Although it's usually a piper's showpiece, it actually works well on mandolin. I haven't played it in ages and originally learned it on concertina. I wonder if I can still play it?

TimPiazza
Mar-04-2004, 1:18am
Cool! Thanks for the suggestions, and keep 'em coming. I'm writing them all down so I can look at them this weekend--first one in a long time when I didn't have some sort of obligation, so I can spend it all on music if I want.

Tim

RolandTumble
Mar-04-2004, 3:46am
A couple of big multi-part reels are:

The Gravel Walks
Foxhunter's

Both are among my favorites to play, as well. I especially like playing GW out of Boys of Malin (which wouldn't qualify for your question by itself, at only three parts...).

grsnovi
Mar-08-2004, 1:56am
Any suggestions on where to purchase CD's like some of the one's listed here by Michael Kerry and Kevin Macleod when neither Amazon nor Elderly has them?

kmmando
Mar-08-2004, 4:15am
http://www.elderly.com/search/elderly?terms=kevin+macleod

regards
Kevin

grsnovi
Mar-08-2004, 1:41pm
Thanks Kevin, Looks like Elderly does have "Polbain to Oranmore" (what's a "polbain" ?)

To others - what about a domestic distributor for Michael Kerry's "The Rocky Road" ?

Steve L
Mar-08-2004, 8:36pm
Celtic Grooves and Music Scotland are good sources for CDs.

Bugs
Mar-09-2004, 9:08am
I have been listening a lot to the cd "Travelers" by Peter Ostrusko. Their are several great tracks on there. I started working on part of the first track "Old French" yesterday. There is another tune called the "Untitled Reel" on there anybody familiar with that one? Good cd for any celtic enthusiast.
Emily

Bugs
Mar-09-2004, 9:13am
Oh found this site a couple of days ago. Makes for some interesting back up practice variety! http://www.tinwhistletunes.com/clipssnip/jigs.html
Emily http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

Strathspey
Mar-09-2004, 2:46pm
Would anyone know where De Danann's Selected Jigs, Reels and Songs could be found?

There doesn't seem to be as much as trace of it in shops/websites. Some sites say that it was out on Shanachie, but they act like they've never heard of it.

Matt