Monroe's Mando

[Dfyngravity]

*Warning, when I say "true bluegrass" mandolin, that is a very lose term, just an idea that I am running with right now.*

I have been thinking a lot about the true bluegrass mandolin. For a fair amount of people, Bill's Gibson F5 is the "bluegrass mandolin", or those few Loars close to it. And by that I mean it's got the total package, what ever that really is. Although I may be wrong by saying that. Anyways, my question is how does the pioneer of mandolin in bluegrass end up with a mandolin that is essentially the mold for almost every mandolin made after it. Was it becuae he was in the right place at the the right time, or just happen to stumble over it? I know I have heard that some of the Loars don't sound nearly as good as some of the other. I think I recall hearing or reading the July 9th Loars seem to be the best?, or close to the best. Or did he simply make it the true bluegrass mandolin because his playing was so great?

I know that many Loars have been disected and studied from every possible angle to figure out what made them, or those few mandolins so special. Could it be that since the Loars were some of first of their type that it's what we think that the true bluegrass mandolin should sound like? Therefore they get put up on a pedestal for all to be model after.

I myself would love to get the chance to play one and actually hear how it sounds and compares to my Red Diamond, or to any of the "todays" F5s being made. I really truely can't say I know what they sound like, although I have heard them on recordings and live while other were playing them.

[mrbook]

Some may disagree, but I would think that when you buy a used instrument from a barbershop window it may not be because it was is the instrument of your dreams, but maybe because it is a good instrument and the price is right. That's how I would do it, anyway. Over the years the man, instrument, and musical style developed together, and that is the sound others want to emulate because of that combination.

Then again, maybe he played it and thought, "This is the sound I've had in my head all these years, and now I can get it out." Who knows? His music still sounded good when he played some of the other mandolins he owned. I heard him a couple times when his main instrument was probably being repaired, and didn't hear anything missing.

[AlanN]

It's often been said here that if the barbershop had a Dec 24, or an April 23 in the window, that would have been the one everybody wanted. Just so happened, it was a July 9 and July 9 mandolins indeed display some transitional anomalies.

[goose 2]

I have played a few and have a Master Model that sounds as good. I have also played a lot of other modern mandolins and just prefer the Loar tone. That may well be because it is what I have heard so many of my mando heroes play on recordings an am therefore conditioned to like that tone but nonetheless it is the tone that I prefer.

[Keith Erickson]

Folks,

What do you think of this thought?

Okay...Bill Monroe bought a mandolin for $150 bucks at a barber shop in Florida.

Yes it's amazing to think WOW!!! #$150 bucks!!! #I've got that just sitting in my change jar on the dresser. #

You have to put things into perspective. #$150 bucks wasn't easy to come by especially in the throws of the great depression pre World War 2. #How many people had $150 bucks lying around at home let alone in a passbook savings account in 1940?

Yes it's an amazing story, but to most folks back then, a price of a Loar made it just as unreachable to the general public as does today.

[Michael Gowell]

Perhaps Mr. Monroe didn't assume that his Loar was the very best mandolin ever built - he continued to seek out older mandolins long after he'd acquired his Loar. #Roland White told me that when he was living in Los Angeles [late 60's?] every time Bill came to town he'd visit Roland & want to make the rounds of the pawn shops looking at mandos. #On at least one occasion he gave serious consideration to an old Gibson 3-point.

[Coy Wylie]

It seems to me from most of the F-5 mandolins I've played that they fall into various degrees of excellence in two very different catagories. Catagory #1 is the Loarish (perhaps Gibsonish) traditional tone that we all associate with Monroe and early BG. These have that woody, well-balanced tone, especially in the mid range. Catagory #2 is the modern tone more associated with contemporary BG and other genres. These seem to be heavier on the bass end of the tone spectrum but lack the searing mids of a Loarish instrument.

There are wonderful, responsive mandos in both catagories. I have one of each. Yet I prefer the traditional tone.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Of course nobody can read Bill's mind, but I believe he liked the f-hole sound (of his F-7)...and may have simply liked the feel of the longer slimmer neck on the Loar compared to the F-7 that he was playing. The Loar also could be played harder. I seriously doubt that he was infactuated by the mandolin at the time. It is very obvious (to me) on recordings that the July 9, 23 Loar was somewhat tight sounding when he got it...newish/unplayed...it sounded essentially like most any other decent Loar (to me).

It was the next 15 years of playing that made it what it became..at least in my opinion

[arbarnhart]

My opinion (worth every nickel you paid for it) is that he found a good mando for the music he played. The absolute best of the Loar mandos? Very subjective question, but the odds are way against it. It seems that it was a good one and that Loars are great mandos. Given the choices of the day, it may have been the best. Given the wide array of choices today, it would still be one of the best. But it is because he chose it that it is now the "holy grail" of mandos, not the other way around (again - just my opinion).

[mandopete]

It was the next 15 years of playing that made it what it became..at least in my opinion
You mean "whipping it like a mule..." don't you?

[f5loar]

I don't think the July 9th date was the magic, it was like Darryl said the longer slimer neck with more punch in the B Natural chord. It could have been any date Loar or a later Fern for that matter in that barbershop in 1945.
Remember by this time Lester Flatt had long been playing a 1941 F5 in brother Charlie's band and Charlie Bailey had long been playing a 20's Fern by then too. Monroe knew what an F5 was before then. When you compare side by side a prewar F7 to a 20's F5 the difference is significant not only in tone but playability.

[Dfyngravity]

This is all very interesting. I almost completely forgot about the whole story of him buying it in a barber shop. If you think about it now, you can't even go to a very good music shop around your home town now and find a mandolin, much less a Gibson...or other great mandolin. Well, atleast not around me, i have to drive at least an hour to find a good music store that carries mandolins. I think it would be great to be able to go down the road and get a hair cut, oh and by the way I think I'll pick up a mandolin too! haha.

Now the more I think about it, the vintage martin guitar is just like the Loar F5. Although, as humans we tend to work like that, it's just human nature. We see someone famous do or play or use something and immediately we have to try it, buy it, have it and be just like them.

It's amazing how someone can set a standard like that. I am sure when the F5s were being made there was some sort of wanting on Mr Loars part of making a great mandolin, as all builders do. But setting a standard probably wasn't his first intension, or intension at all. Then along comes Bill Monroe....Who's that? I don't know, just some guy who likes that darn bluegrass stuff...Oh, is he important?, he buys this strangely shaped "wooden box" out of a barbershop window and plays it like tomorrow is the end of the world and waalaa....it's 2005 and builders of all backgrounds are trying to figure out its mystical powers.

I can't remember where I heard this from but I heard that Monroe was getting honored for his music...grammy or something, I can't remember...but anyways, and Frank Sinatra was too. So Frank was all excited because he was going to meet Mr. Monroe, so he walked up to him and said something like, Hi I am Frank Sinatra and I am big fan of yours. And Bill said well thanks, and who are you. And Sinatra said, well I am Frank Sinatra and I am singer too. Bill looked at him and said, oh really...well I hope that all works out for ya. haha, I always liked that store. Good old Bill Monroe for ya

[kudzugypsy]

i dont know fellas, dont think that bill didnt know that the F5 was gibs*ns top of the line mandolin. he was very conscience of the fact that he wanted to distance himself from the "hillbilly" acts that were what you mostly saw at that time. him up there playing a $250 mandolin was gonna show them he was a SUCCESSFUL recording artist, not some hayseed. people forget that at one time, monroe was one of the biggest country artist on the opry roster.
$150 wasnt small change then either - you could buy a new ford for $600.
also, bill liked to tune a whole tone high. it is possible that he was able to do this on the F5. i've heard stories that when he played with other players, their instruments were so cheap (think montgomery ward brand) that it would pull the necks out of them. there was a BIG difference at the time between a gibson and the next closest thing...what, a L&H or montgomery ward...its just not the case today.

[Fretbear]

He was already getting the biggest, baddest sound anyone ever had while he was playing his F7 with brother Charlie......If the July 9th hadn't delivered, he would have replaced it quicker than a new banjo player....

[evanreilly]

Bill had certainly played many mandolins by the time he found #73987.
I recall him saying he went into the barbershop, played a few notes and knew that was the mandolin for him and his music.
probably went out and got the cash from a paper bag in the trunk of the car.
I saw him try to buy another Loar once; told Wayne Lewis to go get the bag of $$$; Wayne came back with a shopping bag full of cash.

[mrbook]

Lloyd Loar did set out to establish a new standard with the F-5, but not for a style of music that hadn't been invented yet. I think he had classical music in mind, even though today many people think the F-5 isn't suited to that. He did want to make the finest mandolin ever.

$150 for a nice used instrument (the top-of-the-line Gibson)that usually sold for $250 was probably a good buy. I'll bet there probably weren't big discounts on Gibsons at that time. He probably tried it, and the sound spoke to him so he bought it.

Mother Maybelle played an L-5 guitar for most of her career, but I've never seen anyone else get one to play Carter Family songs. She wanted the best Gibson there was, and got it. I wonder if she would have bought a J-200 if they had been available. Of course, she could have bought others, but I saw her playing that L-5 into the 1970s, and now it's in the Hall of Fame.

[BlueMountain]

Okay, here's a little more to help put that $150 for Bill Monroe's barber shop F5 into perspective:
$150 was about six weeks' salary for a factory worker. (That might be, say between $2,400 and $7,000 today--not small change.) You could rent an efficiency apartment in NYC for $40. (Today that might be $1,000 or more for a nasty one.) You could buy a loaf of bread for a dime. You could get a decent suit that would take hard wear for $25, and a good shirt was about $2. Cigarettes were 15 cents a pack. (Compared to today's prices, $150 worth of cigarettes would be about $4,000.) So, while that $150 wasn't worth as much as the cost of a great hand-crafted mandolin today, it would buy a pretty decent used Gibson F today, with some searching. Also, that's a LOT of change to carry around in your pocket. Anyone who knew anything about mandolins back then would have been impressed.

[glauber]

This is great, really puts the numbers in perspective, but also makes the story harder to understand. Can you imagine going to a barbershop and the barber says, "hey, wanna buy a used mandolin? $6,000." http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Keith Erickson]

This is great, really puts the numbers in perspective, but also makes the story harder to understand. Can you imagine going to a barbershop and the barber says, "hey, wanna buy a used mandolin? $6,000." http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
This happens daily in the barbershop that I go to http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[earthsave]

Anyways, my question is how does the pioneer of mandolin in bluegrass end up with a mandolin that is essentially the mold for almost every mandolin made after it. Was it becuae he was in the right place at the the right time, or just happen to stumble over it? I know I have heard that some of the Loars don't sound nearly as good as some of
I assume this has already been said but did not read it on my quick run thru of the thread. IMHO, it's not just the mando , it's what Bill did with it. He is the creator of the sound and genre of music. What he did with it made it the mold for Bluegrass mandos.

[Dfyngravity]

Well I have been searching around to really put things in perspective.

The average income around that time was anywhere from about $1000-$3000 depending on where you lived and what you did. So if you bought a $150 mandolin, which would be the top of the line best mandolin you could find at that time, than you would be paying anywhere from 5%($3000) to 15%($1000) of your total salary.

Now the average income today if roughly 50-60k if you are a fairly eduacated hard working "middle class" person. Although I feel that it is lower than that. Which it very well may be. However, in todays world if you were to buy todays "Loar" with out it being an actual "Loar" than it would cost you roughly 15k and upwards to 25k(top of the line gibsons to a dudenbostel or gilchrist). Now say you made 60k a year, well 5% of your salary would be 3k and 15% would be 9k. So you would be in the boat with most of us here, you could buy a very nice custom F5 from a small builder, which may be better than a top of the line gibson or dudenbostel. However, in order for you buy todays "Loar" you need around 25% of your salary to almost half of it. So I find that Bill Monroe and others who also bought these mandos at the same time seemed to have found the better deal.

kudzugypsy-said that you could buy a new ford for 600, that's about right. But if you think about it, people are spending 15-25k for a brand new mandolin which is mind boggling when you can get a new car for that.

But anyways...yes $150 was a lot for back then, but I think I would have rather bought a $150 top of the line mando than spend 15k on one.

[futrconslr]

[/QUOTE]So you would be in the boat with most of us here, you could buy a very nice custom F5 from a small builder, which may be better than a top of the line gibson or dudenbostel.[QUOTE]

I cringe when these two are mentioned in the same sentence.....and pardon me if I am mistaken but isnt Dudenbostel a "small builder?" :-)

I edited because I didnt want it to sound snippy....

[f5loar]

Let's just say a Dudenbostel is up there with the "big" boys!

[Big Joe]

To put Dfyngravity in a bit more realistic perspective, Monroe bought a USED mandolin from a barbershop. That is quite a bit different from buying a new mandolin from a dealer. One must keep the comparisons apples to apples. The better comparison would be 25% to 50% of ones yearly income in 22-24. By the time Monroe bought the mandolin the new ones were even higher. That puts new mandolins in about the same position today as they were eighty years ago.

[glauber]

But, when Monroe bought the Loar, wasn't the mandolin already in decline in the US? Were there new ones still being produced that would be equivalent to the Loars?

(Just asking.)

[danb]

There isn't a huge gulf in the quality of Loars vs F5s made in the 30s.. To my ear the 30's ones tend to have the most "Bark" to them even!

[f5loar]

I've not seen an F5 made from 1943 to 1949. They only made 5 in 1950 and 22 in 1951 so still slow low production post war in the F5 models. So no Monroe could not have found a new F5 from a dealer in 1945 when he settled for a used '23 Loar. The price in 1950 for an F5 was $375. In 1958 it went up to $500 but they only made 14 in 1958.
He could have gotten a new one easily during the 1939 to 1942 period for around $300 new with plush hardshell case.
I'm really surprised he didn't get a new one after becoming a "big" Opry star during those years.

[Frankmc]

Did he ever pursue/lust after an F5 other than the July 9? I mean repeatedly pester the guy to turn loose of it?

Frank

[sgarrity]

I know Loars are expensive. But to put things in perspective, take a look at the 1960 Les Paul Standard that Gruhn's has. It's only $275,000. For an electric guitar?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Makes a Loar look like a bargain.

[evanreilly]

I've seen several people try to sell Loar mandolins to Bill.
He would try and get them relatively cheap, but didn't really push the big $$$ to get them.
I've seen him play a few others (Loar F-5) that he liked a lot, commenting favorably on them, without asking if they were for sale.