tonegard improvement

[mandroid]

I have found the black paint finish rather shortlived.
An Epoxy electrostatic powdercoat would be Much Better.
Have suggested this myself , but as just one wise guy,It was ignored , but as a chorus of many voices...

Certainly I'm not unique in paint falling off in my presence.
Or in the case ?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[fredfrank]

The paint on mine also chipped rather badly. I don't know if powder coating would be cost prohibitive, but it would certainly last longer.

[bjc]

I have found the paint chips as well...but I also find that I get black marks on my shirts where it rubs up against me...love the sound though and I don't wear expensive shirts while playing out...

[fredfrank]

On the other hand, since I can't afford a Distressed Master Model, a Distressed Tone-Gard is a good substitute!

[250sc]

Since no one can see it I wouldn't care if it wasn't painted.

[Ted Eschliman]

Not experiencing the chipping problem on my gards, but then maybe this is one of the few benefits of an extra layer of (strategically placed) flab...

[Kevin K]

My gard as well chips, but looks rather neat with the wear as the mandolin has a few light scrathes and small dings from over the years. Looks like a real player instead of a pretty fixture.

The black marks on the shirt I think are caused from the rubber pads. Use some Pledge on all the rubber and I believe you'll be OK.

[David M.]

Powder coating would be better, but most likely would require him to have to send out to have finished, thus impacting the cost. Mine has chipped some, too, but Krylon semi-flat black takes care of that. just clean it well first. Most powder coating I've seen in our furniture industry is polyester powder and has to be baked at around 450F.

I actually have modified mine by adding a middle centerline ray to the 1/2 moon shape and the outer portion. My modelmaker at work helped w/the tack-welds because I'd have most likely melted the thing. I contacted the maker about this and he said he has had this request before and will start making them that way.

[TonyP]

I thought I was going to stay out of this because I thought it was going to be nothing but Gard bashing but I see most here understand what the Tone-Gard was intended to be and I can't tell you how grateful for that I am. I respond to all who have suggestions and treat me with the respect I give others. I didn't find a hint of respect in mandroid's email to me so I didn't feel like it needed response. I felt like some Wall-Mart exec was using his MBA as a bludgeon to tell me how to do my business, as if I'd never used or seen a Tone-Gard in my life. I've been using a Tone-Gard longer than anybody and long before I sold them to anybody I had people telling me how I should make them. I don't hold the American Dream of having some poor slob/slobs at minimum wage doing all the work while I justify myself for taking the profits and doing nothing. I take every order, make every Gard, finish it and send it out. And when there is a problem I don't hand it over to somebody to make excuses, I take care of it. I also have to figure out what is within the realm of what I call a problem. I have made many small improvements over the years because the basic design is sound. The paint is a weak point I admit, but as being Gardist #1 I used it with that paint for 16yrs without a chip. It never dawned on me someone would use it to protect their mando to set it someplace where they wouldn't set it without the Gard on it. If my mando isn't on the front of me, it's in the case, end of story. I also don't play my mando with a jacket with zippers etc. All I can say, is the missing paint is proof of it's protection from things that would have damaged the back of the mando. Mandroid in no uncertain terms, told me that I can powdercoat the Gards and that the paint "went away much to fast". Is he going to buy the equipment for me? Is he going to buy the electric stove(because a gas stove would explode during the baking process) and pay for the electricity to run said stove? He says there is a local powdercoat shop that can take care of it. I had a Gard done locally. It cost me $35, for one. The only powdercoaters around here are boutique outfits catering to hotrodders. There is an industrial powdercoater that is almost 40mi one way from here. He is much more reasonable, but with the price of gas, the delay of working into his schedule I concluded it was going to be cost prohibitive and would hamper my prompt service to my customers and dealers. I have been field testing one I had done by said outfit and powdercoat being baked on is NOT flexible at all and can't stand up to the flexing of the adjustable spring arms. So after holding my prices for almost 3yrs now, mandroid wants me to either increase my price(which I will have to do soon as all my materials have more than doubled) or internalize the expense. And for a paint that can still flake off, and when it does, it comes off in big chunks. ground swell anybody?

[Philip Halcomb]

Rightly said Tony, I've been using my gard for quite some time, no paint loss here, I play everyday for hours, etc... etc... It's a fine product. Thanks...

[Doug Edwards]

I've no compliants. The Gard does what it's supposed to do. Should it come down to where I think the paint is a problem, I guess I'll get out the steel wool and buy a can of paint. Maybe I'll splurge and get the $4 can. I wish it was that easy for some of the scratches and dings I've put on my mandolin along the way from playing. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kevin K]

Right, I'm glad the gard was there because the chips are minor compared to what would have happened to the mandolin itself. Tony P, I noticed the price has remained constant and to the value you have added to the mandolin comunity, I think you need need a pat on the back. It's a great addition to the mandolin world.

[Mike McCoy]

I'm with you Kevin. Your right about Tony and the Gard!

[bjc]

I didn't buy the gards because I loved the color...so I don't care if the paint peels a little...it's probably due to my own posion sweat anyway...and I will say again I do Love the sound...one of these days I'm going to have to get Tony to build one for my Freshwater...but that will be another post...

[Antlurz]

Powder coating is very popular with the gun guys. If someone has a gunshop nearby, they might be worth checking with to get their guard done.

Ron

[Gail Hester]

Hey Tony, I certainly agree with you in expecting common decency and respect. As a mandolin builder and the wife of a guy who owns more mandolins than is reasonable, my opinion is that I’ve never seen any other mandolin accessory or hardware option that improves the sound as much or even close to what the Tone-Gard does. Pure genius.

I do have to admit though that our Tone-Gard does have numerous small areas where the paint has flaked off. The guard is two years old, has been on the same mandolin, cased when not played and not abused as described above. I am a very satisfied customer and we appreciate that your product has been affordable to everyone. I’m not suggesting that you change anything but just wanted to provide honest feedback. Good luck and continued success.

[Ken Sager]

Chipped paint on a tone-gard is the least of my concerns. I own three (one is on loan to a friend) and I just had to look to see whether the paint is chipped because I frankly don't care. Different paint wouldn't change the way they function, so why bother?

Keep up the good work, Tony, and thank you.

Best,
Ken

[Mteresko]

I have found that the overall quality of paint materials here in California has declined over the years due to environmental issues. Perhaps a paint product that worked well a few years back has been reformulated and no longer performs as well as it did. You might try some of the newer catalyzed finishes.

By the way, I love my Tone Gard, and the paint is still intact.

[Mike Bunting]

I think my toneguard does exactly what it should do and it does it well, the worn spots show that it is working and that is good enough for me.:cool:

[Rich Michaud]

I would like to go on record in support of Tony P and his great product-paint included. I have two and have had the pleasure of dealing with Tony-a gentleman. I actually stripped the paint off of one and spray-painted it gold to go with my blonde Nugget. Look at it this way-if if chips its vintage, if you want a custom color-spray it yourself for a few bucks. Rich

[mandoJeremy]

Tony, I don't own a toneguard but I do know a little about paint so I thought I would offer just a small amount of advice and it may only be worth what you paid for it which would be nothing! #Anyway, have you tried some DuPont 99 Black Imron? #That stuff will NOT chip off and is probably one of the strongest paints for metal that exists. #They do make a one stage version where the clear is included in it and only has to be activated or catalyzed. #Try some of that for an experiment if you would be interested because I think you could probably get a quart of it plus the activator for around $55.00 or maybe a little more. #You would need a spray gun and air compressor though if you don't already have one (I don't know your current finishing technique). #You could try some other automotive strength urethane single stage paints. #PPG has the Global line which is expensive but also quite durable. #I rolled my Honda Prelude doing 85mph one time that I had painted with the Global and it didn't peel off. #There were small chips here and there but I don't think a ToneGuard can go through the pressure that 85mph can do on a car. #If it can, the user better worry about more than a chip! #If you need any more details or would be interested in learning more just PM me. #Automotive paint is definitely going to be your best bet because it is made to stick to metal.

[fredfrank]

O.K., I used some of that Dupont 99 black imron paint on my tonegard, and it looks great! Now I just need to figure out how to get the paint off the back of my mandolin . . .

[Harry H]

O.K., I used some of that Dupont 99 black imron paint on my tonegard, and it looks great! Now I just need to figure out how to get the paint off the back of my mandolin . . .

Dip it in Stripper?

[fredfrank]

Harry, am I supposed to go to Las Vegas for that?

[J. Mark Lane]

I have two Tone Gards. They are great. They do exactly what they are supposed to do, and the price was very reasonable, given that they are each individually hand-made by one person.

The paint has indeed chipped off here and there. And I couldn't care less. In fact, I see it kind of as a badge of honor - it says "This thing has been around a bit." Doesn't change anything at all in terms of what it does.

And anyway, I am not a complete boob -- I know how to operate a $3 can of spray paint. If I wanted to, I could easily take off the rubber grommets, wipe it down with a little paint thinner, hang it in the air with a wire in my garage (or the front yard) and spray it all nice and new. I could even spray it in wild colors, like pink or flourescent green. Who cares?

Tony, you make a great and unique product. You designed and created a great and unique product -- one that adds considerably to the mandolin community. Thank you! Keep up the good work, spray them with whatever you like, and ignore the whiners.

Mark

[metalmandolin]

Tony,

The Tone-Gard is fine just the way it is...the cost is right and it's like getting a new upgrade mandolin when one is installed. Don't change nothing, IMHO.

[ronlane3]

Tony, I'm glad that you went ahead and stood up for yourself. I love my gard and sounds like I need to order another 2 or 3 before you have a price increase. Oh wait, since mandroid is unhappy with his maybe he'll just send it to me.

The product is awesome and is great the way it is. Thanks from all of us who understand what the gard is for.

[mandroid]

No flame was intended, even if taken as such.
cross town in the case is not a high wear situation , one would think.
was intending Bene Sugg..
Sharing that I have been satisfied with the outstanding durability of the lo temp plastic glazing process.
Known benefits: application uses no volitile solvents , overspray gets swept up with a vacuum and powdered material can be reused ..
[ painting grillework has lots of overspray ]
I thought a modest proposal was to be offered.


pardonet mois SVP :defensive smiley:

[Chris Burt]

Six months on my Toneguard and no chipping, and I play a lot. Love this thing, and it looks so cool, just like I know what I'm doing...

[TonyP]

Thanks all for the wonderful support and I'll try to keep searching for ways to improve the Tone-Gard as I can with your input. Tone-Gard ain't perfect, nuthin' in this world is.
we cool mandroid.....

[jim simpson]

Interesting thread! Would the tool handle plastic dip stuff work? I bought a can of it once and dipped a tool or something in it and it worked great. Of course the balance of the can had dried up when I went to use it the 2nd time.

[BlueMountain]

Hey, Tony, as a result of reading this thread, I ordered a ToneGard from Elderly (I know, maybe I should have ordered it from you, but I didn't want to mess around with mailing a check).

The tool handle plastic dip stuff is a good idea, Jim--it's what I thought of right away. It also comes not only in black, but in fluorescent yellow and green, and that would be a VERY cool effect on the back of a $10,000 mandolin! If the entire ToneGard were dipped in it, it might work. It can also be painted on with a brush, though that might not look as nice, but it would take less of the stuff.(As for it drying out, try putting clean rocks in the can to bring it up to the top level before you seal it up.) I wonder, though, about chemical changes or outgassing. I don't know what it's made of. It would be sad if it turned out to be like those vinyl guitar straps that can eat through a finish.

[TonyP]

You hit the nail on the head Blue, that stuff is death. That's why the Gard has rubber instead of the clear plastic/surgical tubing. They have elastomers in them to keep them soft and they eat finishes. The dip is wasteful and if you closed your case with that stuff on it for any length of time you'd have a mess, guarenteed. All this stuff came up before I even decided to sell to others. Like the dip, making the Gard out of plastic, subbing it out to a welding shop, etc. Do you want something made out of plastic on the back of your mando? I don't, and if you know anything about getting molds done it's way expensive for much simpler things than the Gard, and your still only have something made out of plastic. Same thing with the Emron paint. Horribly toxic to use or be around( on me ), wasteful (have to clean the gun everytime with horrible chemicals, then what to do with that stuff?) and releases that same horrible stuff into the air. Say what you will about my Krylon, but it's lacquer mostly and only smells bad for a few minutes and is done. Emron, and almost all the other paints, setup time denotes the amount off gassing and junk you putting in the air. I quit being an auto mech because, living in the San Joaquin Valley, the biggest and dirtiest air basin in the WORLD, I care about my part in this mess and try to not add to it. I know not everybody shares in my concerns, but there really is a method to my madness. Simple is better, always, in my book.

[Big Joe]

I have 2 Tone Gards and have sold quite a few of them over the last couple years. I've never noticed any chipping, but then I have not looked and could care less. We have never had a complaint from a customer so I don't think they are too worried. None of the pro's in Nasvhille have complained but keep recommending them so they aren't worried. I really would not care if the paint fell off the day after I installed it. It works great, and that is all that matters to me......but then what do I know ? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[jasona]

I think some paint has chipped off mine in the past year and a half--not sure as I can't SEE the Tone Guard while using it... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[GVD]

I work as a process engineer for a residential HVAC manufacturer and am assigned to a product improvemnet team. We frequently get suggestions from customers about things they would like to see changed. Some of them are similar to the powder coat suggestion in that they sound good initially but upon further investigation are not feasible to implement for one reason or another. It usually boils down to cost vs. benefit. Powder coating is a great technology for certain applications but with your relatively low volume I can see where it would be prohibitively expensive. I also agree that any benefits to be gained from Imron would be offset by health and environmental concerns. The only thing I don't understand #is how you have kept your prices the same with the soaring cost of steel. We have had to raise the prices on our products 3 times in the last year and a half and still have not recouped the increased price we pay for steel. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif My hat's off to you Tony for a great product and keeping the cost down.

GVD

[jasona]

*psst* You'll notice Tony's neighbor's wire fence is slowly disappearing http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[SternART]

I might possibly be the biggest GARD purchaser, except for a store or distributor.
The Tonemeister is a great asset to our community, he has made many of our instruments
sound their best. I usually leave them on an instrument I sell from my collection, as
I know the value to the next owner. Look at Monroe's mandolin, a few paint chips on a
GARD are like a badge of honor, it shows that mando has been well played!

[racuda]

Simple is better, always, in my book.
This may be a stupid question, but why paint it?

Nobody has said that rusting is a problem in the areas of missing paint chips.

Perhaps the steel would eventually take on an antique patina.

[bones12]

Why not market it as an easily distressed model? But seriously are not we talking about tone and not appearance?. Doug

[TonyP]

I said it before, but I don't mind repeating, all of you are the greatest. Years ago I quit CoMando because of the bickering and vehement bashing of the Gard by a few who had never seen/used a Tone-Gard, just hated the concept and all that loved it. I know it's silly but Gards really are like my children and there is nothing in the world that gets me whacked like messing with my kids. I don't know how all the luthiers can stand to sell their instruments( but I'm glad they do ) after spending so much time and love to make them. I don't spend a millionth the time and effort they do and I'm still attached to 'em. My original concept was like a VW, the VolksGard. You could own it for life because you could maintain it yourself. I used to put on the old website that I used Krylon, 7/64" rubber vac hose, and permanent dye leather and didn't glue the pads on because it made it easy to remove and paint. But a good friend who is a big time businessman and the guy whom I got most my good stuff, including my Newson, told me "just put the pic of the Tone-Gard, what it fits and where you can order, nothing else" on the website. I did a halfway of that and I felt like the concept got kinda lost in the "marketing". But I can see from all the responses here, you folks get it. When Michael Lewis said the name should be what it does, Tone-Gard, that's it. It's about the TONE and that it guards the instrument is a bonus, not what the original intent was. And as far as buying it from me, that's a bonus as I have dealers that I feel support the concept of the Gard. So whether it's from me or from them, it makes no difference. You are supporting local and national economy that stays here, not some off shore pirate corp. that supports sweatshop unfair practices. I'm continually surprised it's gotten as big as it has and that it's gone on as long as it has, and that's a fact. It sounds corny but I really am proud of our mando community, of which The Mandolin Cafe is the nexus. As diverse as we are, it's one of the only places I know where it truly is ok to agree to disagree. And respect is not only expected, but enforced. A rare thing today.

[kyblue]

I love mine!

In fact, think I'm gonna be needing another for my new Duff...

Paula

[Scotti Adams]

..nothing but praise for the man and his product from me..

[LKN2MYIS]

Tony -

I've seen many, don't own one (yet).

I think it's a great idea at a very reasonable price and it does what it is supposed to do.

If anyone finds a way to make everyone happy, please let me know (and this would include my ex-wife!).

Tony, keep doing what you are doing. And thanks for doing it.

John

[beanbass]

I've been using the Tone-Gard for only two months and I don't forsee it ever leaving my instrument. Every time I pick up the instrument, whether standing or sitting or lying down on my back on the bed, the mando sounds full and resonant. Brilliant!

[jmcgann]

I love my 'gard- the little paint chips show where my lacquer would have been gouged! Plus, I have much fatter tone than before. 100% satisfied. THANKS Tony!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[LeoR]

Can't you just hear Bill Monroe on this topic?

"That tone gard works mighty fine. Mighty fine job from that boy. Paint chips? I don't see no paint chips. Didn't know the thing was painted."

Mighty fine Tony. I never even thought about paint chips. Still don't. I say strap it on and play.

[Lefty&French]

And for a lefty F mando ? Special order or not ?
Thanks,

[TonyP]

Funny you should bring Mr. Monroe up Leo. That was the very contention of the bashers was that Mr. Monroe didn't use one, so it wasn't needed, almost sacrilege. All you had to do was hold the mando away like he did. This point has been brought up again not too long ago by a very prominent teacher/pro that frequents this board, and really to each his own. Not to ding you, but I'm not sure Mr. Monroe would have used it, but I'm glad to say several of his devotees do. It's funny how things turned when the Godfather of the Mando, El Dawg/David Grisman, started using the Tone-Gard. He was proceeded by Radim Zenkl and Andy Statman( also hero's of mine), but when Dawg started using/endorsing it all the sudden the pro's, who had been conscious of it, started to come on board. The Tone-Gard really started at the bottom, the grass roots so to speak knew of it and used it 10yrs before the pro's came to it. But it's popularity has gone to another level with guys like John McGann giving his blessings.
Pick purty my friends...

[TonyP]

oh, LeftPhil, a standard Gard will fit, not as good as one that has been made for a lefty. Since I'd have to flip the pattern, yes, a lefty is a little more $$. Not a custom per se, more like a mod.

[BlueMountain]

The ToneGard I bought from Elderly Music arrived today, wrapped in bubble wrap. Nicely made. The black paint had already flaked off in a couple places, but I don't care. I put in on my already terrific souped up Breedlove Quartz KF. BIG difference. What difference? The mandolin held against my chest now sounds like it does held an inch away from my chest. Now the back is vibrating freely, too. I love it! Everyone who wants to sound good should have one! Putting on a Monteleone-style tailpiece greatly improved the sustain. Putting on a solid maple bridge greatly improved the complexity of the sound and potentiated the sustain. Putting on the ToneGard made all that expense and effort sound a lot more resonant and beautiful. Great invention, Tony!

[Cedartop]

In regards to lefty, I have a standard model on my left handed Yellowstone that I took off my left handed Absaroka.
It works just fine on both. I like the product so much I will be getting a second one so that each mandolin has its own.

[Don Grieser]

When I saw John Reischman play at the Santa Fe festival, he had a Tone Gard on his Loar. Now that's a mandolin that needs some help, and a player who needs help with his tone http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I admit I put my Tone Gard back on after seeing John R. and I'm liking it.

[Tim Saxton]

I just purchased from the classifeds here on the cafe, a nearly new toneguard. This is my second one now.

This is an improved one over my first. There are more rubber protectors and they seemed like they are cut differently to not allow them to pop off.

Thanks for the Guard Bill!!!

Tony keep up the good work!!! With out this item, I can't see how mediocre players like my self would have a chance to sound good.

[Douglas McMullin]

Does the ToneGuard over time leave any marks on the mandolin where it makes contact with the instrument? I like the idea and I am considering getting one, but I was a little worried about what wear it might cause. I am guessing my fears are unfounded, but I would love any input. (I would be getting it for a Collings MT).

[doc holiday]

I've used the toneguard on my Collings D2H brazilian for a year with no marks. I know someone who has one for his prewar herringbone and one for his Loar....I also saw John R recently sporting a TG on his Loar although he was still a holdout last summer in Montana. I'll be taking delivery of a toneguard for my lefty Heiden tomorrow! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Doc

[Douglas McMullin]

Thanks. I will be ordering one shortly then!

[jasona]

I have the slighest black smudge on the bass side binding from mine. I use it to line up the fit should the TG come off. I haven't tried wiping it off, but I assume it would because there is no chemical reaction possible between rubber and lacquer.

[BigJoe]

You should not have much trouble with lacquer finishes, though anything can happen. If your instrument is a varnish instrument it will leave a mark. However, it is less problematic than the likely marks normal wear and tear would leave on the back. In addition, french polishing should remove the marks and leave you happy again. Most people will leave enough sweat on the back to eat the finish over time and this will stop that cold. So, while it may leave some marks, it is not enought to worry about and it can be repaired.

[Aran]

Okay I have just read this whole thread and now I want a tone guard too!!

I'm in Ireland so any ideas about the best way to go about ordering one??

Are they available perhaps in TAMCO in Brighton, UK?

Oh and IMHO the paint thing doesn't really sound that important http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Larry S Sherman]

Okay, I resisted enough. I just ordered one from Boyd's for my new Terris F.

Larry

[Douglas McMullin]

I also just ordered a ToneGuard for my Collings MT. I can definitely hear a tone & volume difference when I keep the instrument away from my body. Sounds like a good idea and it is pretty inexpensive so why not.

[Douglas McMullin]

Got it today! You can put me on the list of ToneGuard fans. Fits perfectly, mando sounds great, and I like how the guard feels against my stomach (less slipping around). Well worth the $65.

[Roydw3]

When I win the mando on the 15th, I will have a mandolin good enough for a ToneGard. Right now, my cheapo wouldn't be helped much. I loved the product the first time I saw it and heard it at a festival. I will own one some day. Keep up the good work.

[bjc]

You'd be surprised at how much the TG improves an entry level axe....get one Denny and then all you'll have to do is remove it from the beater and put it on your Collins :-)

[bjc]

Collings...forgot to tune that "g"

[Mike McCoy]

Aran,
You can visit the ToneGard site and order one directly from Tony.

[Tom C]

When I'm standing up, the mando is a little bit on my side. Not directly in front of me and angled slightly out. The back does not rest against my stomache that much.
While sitting, I'm usually hunched over a bit and again does not rest diectly on me.
I do not think I need one.