Gibson A Jr. Natural [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

journeybear

Mar-07-2021, 7:02pm

.... apart from the fact that they say they come in in sheraton brown and the one illustrated is “natural”.

Well ... It's a black-and-white drawing of a mandolin offered only in Sheraton brown. So that's not natural, owing to the transfigurative properties of rendering a color image using a black-and-white imaging process. :whistling:

Ray(T)

Mar-08-2021, 4:30am

Well ... It's a black-and-white drawing of a mandolin offered only in Sheraton brown. So that's not natural, owing to the transfigurative properties of rendering a color image using a black-and-white imaging process. :whistling:

If they’d put a white pickguard on it and printed it in negative, it might almost match the description!

Jim Garber

Mar-08-2021, 7:59am

Catalog photos often don’t correspond to actual manufactured instruments for Gibson and even for other companies like Lyon & Healy and even Martin. To the OP: have you found a natural A-Junior somewhere. Might help to explain why you are asking.

J.C. Bryant

Mar-08-2021, 9:06am

I have found one that the seller said was an over spray natural. And anoter "natural" taht says it is a refinish but , from the photos, there does not appear to be any of the stain "hangovers". I am seriously considering, if I were to get one somewhere, if I could refinish it and return the darker stain. But, I wouldn't want to do that to one that was actually a natural from the build date. Also, somehow, I have just become kind of focused, interested, Obsessed with A Jr's and want to know what I can about them. To that end, where else could a person go but the great knowledge base of the Mandolin Cafe? I think I like the lack of "bling": and the potential of a very good sound.

Jim Garber

Mar-08-2021, 10:35am

This "natural" on on Empire Guitars (https://www.empireguitarsri.com/listing/gibson-a-jr-mandolin-1924-natural/34591464) is mentioned as a refinish—that one is marked as sold. This one shows up on a few other sites and shows up in a image search on Google.

Post your other links so we can see what you are looking at. I am guessing that they are all refinished. Since the A-Jr has no binding or even a rosette then I would think all remnants of old finish could be sanded off and not remain.

I can find no other "natural" ones and knowing how listings go, often many might not realize or don't know if they are refinished.

OTOH I checked the Mandolin Archive for an advanced search for all the A-Juniors (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?ajr)—there are three pages of listings. There are quite a few refinished ones and one unpictured described as blonde but that may be refinished as well.

J.C. Bryant

Mar-08-2021, 10:54am

Yes Jim, I looked through those as well. I am trying to figure, whether, if one had a refinished one should he, she, refinish it, yet again, and bring it back to its original color.

pops1

Mar-08-2021, 11:06am

Yes Jim, I looked through those as well. I am trying to figure, whether, if one had a refinished one should he, she, refinish it, yet again, and bring it back to its original color.

Having just attended a jam outside in the sun, most welcome, and enjoying the heat and warmth. I was however glad I brought a natural finished mandolin instead of a dark finish. Considering that I would leave it the natural, makes a conversation potential and is easier played in sunny environments.

Jim Garber

Mar-08-2021, 2:06pm

Unless the refinish was done poorly I would keep it as is.

BTW the most interesting A-Jr was one owned by Howard Frye the virtuoso mandolinist who played Gypsy music. He had it refinished and added binding but it was his main instrument. It is listed in the archives here: http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/75079

he had passed away when I was in the NY Mandolin Orchestra but his widow played with us and usually played that mandolin.

rcc56

Mar-08-2021, 3:32pm

If you're concerned about market value of the instrument, the difference between one that's been refinished natural won't be much different than one done in Sheraton brown. In either case, it's a refinished instrument, and its value is mostly dependent upon the quality of the finish rather than the color [so long as you don't paint it green].

The only reasons you might consider re-doing it are if the refinish was poorly done, or if you simply prefer Sheraton brown. But bear in mind that finish work is not easy to do well, and the more you monkey with the instrument, the harder it is to get good results. And a poor refinish in any color will only further de-value the instrument, and may have a negative effect on the sound. If I were going to redo one, I would only use a traditional varnish, and keep the finish as thin as possible.

J.C. Bryant

Mar-08-2021, 8:54pm

Well, I think you good folks have convinced me to leave them alone, for several reasons. One being that it will provide very little in the way of enhancing value. And as far as sound is concerned, if it sounds good play it and let it be ugly, if it is, indeed, ugly. But please know I really do appreciate all your thoughts and comments. thanks

Anglocelt

Mar-09-2021, 7:29am

Well I have a blond A Jr. The back and sides show evidence of refinishing but not the top, which is unusually, for an A Jr, tight and straight grained. The serial number is 86444.

MarkELynch

Mar-09-2021, 11:59am

Duplicate post.

MarkELynch

Mar-09-2021, 12:03pm

This has been a very interesting discussion so far.

It has cause me to revisit some of the instruments in the collection and to try and share my observations with my friends on the cafe.
I have three A-Jr’s that I would like share with our group. They are pictured from left to right below as listed. Notice the great variety in the top wood selection.
The 1921 has particularly fine grained wood as Anglo describes his above. When I look closely I see that the top is made of four pieces, the outer 1/2 inch on right and left sides are jointed. I suspect this top was made with cut-offs from a higher model, perhaps and A4. Without any proof I believe this was Gibson’s practice to use up the good scraps up on the lower instrument line. Anglo, what is your FON and does it have evidence or a top made from more than two pieces with a center joint? The other two are more typical two pieces wide grained tops. The 1925 snakehead has a lacquer finish and the grain is not quite as straight. I’ve never had an original A-Jr with anything but a Sheraton brown top, I’ve never seen one in other collections or in the wild. The ones in the Mandolin archive are all Sheraton brown with the exceptions of ones that are noted as refinished (someone will no doubt prove me wrong). Again, anything is possible but the empirical evidence is that Sheraton brown is the color and that anything else would be a rarity or was refinished.

Anyway, I’m glad I could share these examples with you. And keep the discussion going. I hope my photos all upload okay!

Mark

192633

A-Jr FON 11410 Spann Year 1921 (paddle head, varnish finish) below

192634192635

A-Jr FON 11973 Spann Year 1923 (paddle head, varnish finish) below

192636192637

A-Jr FON 8190 Spann Year 1925 (snakehead, lacquer finish) below

192638192639

192640192641

Jim Garber

Mar-09-2021, 1:08pm

Wow Mark! All three of yours look immaculate. I had a really nice snakehead A-Jr but it had been pleasantly played and beaten. Still it sounded great. Yours all look brand new. Makes me want another. I love how understated they are.

MarkELynch

Mar-09-2021, 1:28pm

Thanks Jim. All three are original. I’ve been blessed and very particular in my selections over the years. I’ve always passed up refinished, repaired, or instruments with replaced or missing parts. This is particularly hard at the low end of any product line that becomes a collectible. The cheap models are usually either put away when the interest wanes or they are played but not treated well because of the low cost. The base model D (Alrite) and the DY (Army Navy Special) are even more difficult to find in clean and complete original condition. I looked for many years and finally found good examples of each of those.

My antique Gibsons look so new that some of my music buddies like to tease me by asking me if I’m the original owner. :<).

Mark

J.C. Bryant

Mar-09-2021, 2:07pm

Thanks Mark, great mandolins! I enjoyed our messaging the other day as well. I can assure you that none of the ones i'm fooling with look so clean and nice!!

journeybear

Mar-09-2021, 2:25pm

Sure are nice. I've not heard too much about them before. Do you use one of these at gigs or something else? And if so, why?

Anglocelt

Mar-09-2021, 4:38pm

Mark,

You have a fine selection of A Jrs, a mix of paddlehead and snakehead. Do you notice any difference in the sound or playability between the head shapes?

Kevin

Anglocelt

Mar-09-2021, 4:52pm

Showing the nice top wood of my natural A Jr (possibly refinished)192653

MarkELynch

Mar-10-2021, 11:16am

Kevin, thanks for posting the photo of your A-Jr, can you tell us what the Factory number stamped inside on the neck block reads?
The selection of the spruce top is beautiful and much more fine grained than usual, it is difficult to see the number of pieces it is made from. I can see the center seam and might see one more joint on the treble side. Maybe you can take a closer look and report back. It might be a two piece top intended for an upper model but used because of material shortages or some other unknown reason.
I would agree that the top has been refinished. There are sanding marks most notably in the area at the end of the fingerboard on the bass side and on the edges of the black binding in the sound hole. What do the rest of my Cafe friends think? Here is an enlargement of Kevin’s photo.

Mark

192706

J.C. Bryant

Mar-10-2021, 12:55pm

I think I agree Mark, but at any ratem it is a fine piece of spruce! But, to me, and most important, I would ask Anglocelt, how does it sound?

Also, you fine people, on the subject of A Jr's, what is the dark/black peghead covering, paint stain, or what?

Blessings to all

Anglocelt

Mar-10-2021, 1:13pm

Mark, I don't see any sanding marks, just the normal slope of the top as it comes up to join the fingerboard. There has been some restoration work done, visible from white glue dribbles near the neck joint. The back looks like it could have been reinstalled. Those glue dribbles also help to obscure the FON number. I can see a 2 at the neck end but that is all.

As for sound, it is 'typical Gibson A'. I have had a few of these and this one is at the brighter end of the sound spectrum. My other A Jr (#68589) is a brown top, original (flaking) finish. It has a bit of depression around the bridge whereas my natural A Jr has no visible depression. Despite that I think I prefer the sound of my brown one - much darker and bassy. Maybe the sinking helps there?
Kevin

J.C. Bryant

Mar-10-2021, 7:13pm

On the subject of A Jr's, what is the dark/black peghead covering, paint stain, verneer or what? I have one which has been refinished and I, at least, want to put the pegehad back to a dark color.

rcc56

Mar-11-2021, 11:09am

The Gibson peghead veneers used during the oval hole period were made out of an unknown dyed wood, often generically called "dyed pearwood." It is likely that the wood was pressure dyed, and the exact species may have varied somewhat due to the whims of the supplier. Other instrument manufactures also used similar wood for veneers. Many of these old veneers are starting to deteriorate, possibly because of caustic chemicals used in the dying process. We see this deterioration quite frequently on Fairbanks/Vega banjos, and I am starting to see it more often on some of the early oval hole Gibson mandolins.

Any dyed wood of medium hardness with regular grain would be sufficient for a replacement veneer. If you want to re-dye an existing veneer, Fiebings leather dye will work. It will be necessary to dye the entire face of the veneer, let it dry for several days, apply a very light sealing coat, let dry, and apply a second light sealing coat before building your shellac, varnish, or lacquer.

MarkELynch

Mar-11-2021, 12:34pm

RCC, thanks for your most excellent description of the Gibson peghead veneers and the method for repairing them, we all appreciate your expertise!
However, I believe only models that have a peghead inlay are veneered, the mandolin models below the A1 (A, A-Jr, DY, D) which have no inlay are black colored by some other means. Without the veneer on the face the center joint is clearly visible under the black coloring. Perhaps you have some details on how the black finish was accomplished. Thanks!

On another note, did you ever notice that the black center stripe on the tip on an A4 peghead is painted? It is supposed to appear to be the end of the dark center neck lamination if it were to extend up through the peghead. It is well done and easy to fool the eye!

Mark

MarkELynch

Mar-13-2021, 6:20pm

There is a beautiful lacquered A-Jr snakehead in the classifieds currently that has an atypical fine-grained spruce top. NFI

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/168358#168358

The seller writes “This Gibson Junior Mandolin (A Junior) serial number 81216 was built around 1925. It in great shape and plays great.” He sent these detailed photos.

Mark

192771 192772 192773

rcc56

Mar-13-2021, 9:14pm

Perhaps you have some details on how the black finish was accomplished. Thanks!

On another note, did you ever notice that the black center stripe on the tip on an A4 peghead is painted? It is supposed to appear to be the end of the dark center neck lamination if it were to extend up through the peghead. It is well done and easy to fool the eye!

Mark

People have been debating about 1910 - 1920's Gibson finishes for years.
All that I can say for sure is that they are soluble in alcohol, which indicates the presence of some sort of spirit varnish.
I am confident that aniline dyes were used for the coloring, except for the "ivory" A-3 top finishes and possibly the black finishes.
I wouldn't take very much stock in anything Gibson might have said in old catalogs or sales literature.

Lacquer does not appear until the later 1920's. I cannot give an exact date. Like most other Gibson changes of the period, the transition from varnish to lacquer was probably a gradual process, which may have taken several years to complete.

The black stripe on a 'teens A-4 peghead appears to be an extension of the same piece of wood that was used for the neck's back stripe. Although I have not had the neck completely off one of these instruments, I believe that the multi-piece necks on the upper model mandolins were in 4 pieces, plus any "ear wood" that might have been added to the sides of a peg head and the peghead veneer. Multi-piece necks consisted of a "dyed pearwood" center stripe between two pieces of mahogany, plus a triangular piece of hard maple that served as a neck reinforcement and is visible only if the fingerboard is removed. Some of the very early mandolins used cherry instead of mahogany.

The low A models often have one piece necks plus the maple reinforcement.

J.C. Bryant

Mar-14-2021, 1:24pm

rcc56

Mar-14-2021, 1:46pm

You can add some black pigment to your varnish, shellac, or lacquer. Test on a piece of scrap. You will want the color coat[s] to be deep in color, because you want to get all your color on in one or two coats. Avoid sanding the color coats if possible. If you must sand, let dry very well, then only scuff sand lightly with 400 or 320. Try the 400 first. Do not try to level it yet. Then clear coat once or twice, scuff sand with 400 or 320 [make sure you don't go through], clear coat once or twice more, let cure very well again, level sand, and polish.

If you've never worked with colored finishes before, it will be worth your while to go through the whole process on scrap wood before you try it on the mandolin.

Good luck. There is a learning curve when working with colored finishes. You have to learn when to sand, and how much, and learn to keep your paws off it and give your coats extra drying time. For me, the hardest part is making myself leave it alone while the coats cure. My inclination is to work too fast, but if I do, I have to re-do the work.

Me, I would probably stain the wood, then French polish with dyed shellac, and finish off with clear shellac.

Eric Platt

Mar-15-2021, 6:19am

Thanks rcc56! I have a refinished A jr which was converted to "natural". The maple piece insert you are discribing is ckearly visible in the middle of the peghead just above the nut. I am trying to stain the top of the peghead "black" and that little maple piece of maple absorbs completely different than the rest of the peghead. It may faintly show even when I am done. thanks

Just my opinion, but no problem if it does show. My bandmate has a 1910 A1 and you can easily see the insert if you know what you are looking for. His instrument has original finish.

MarkELynch

Mar-16-2021, 7:02pm

Three more A-Jr’s appeared on Reverb today including a nice Snakehead but it may have been over coated. Here are photos of each again illustrating the wide variety of top woods used on this model. The first one pictured has a badly crazed lacquer finish but you can still see the grain through the finish.

Mark

192883 192884 192885

J.C. Bryant

Mar-16-2021, 9:06pm

Actually I am the one who put those up on Reverb. I just have too many mandolins. I plan on keepling the one which doesn't sell. (maybe all of them. Ha) The old snake head has been through the mill. It has been refinished and I even did a little. It had a "The Gibson" decal on the peghead and I too that off an re-did the peghead top. But the thing is, as it applies to our thread, is that that old Gibson, beat to pieces but still is a great sounding mandolin. The '22 is a very clean mandolin and the '27 has seen some tough times, environmentally, as well but also has a good sound. To be honest I really like the ugly ones which sound good. I may pull that old snakehead off, yet. Blessings,