Guitar Body Octave Mandolin for Irish?

[Parker135]

I'm considering an octave mandolin for Irish traditional playing to mix in with my standard oval hole and tenor banjo. It seems that guitar bodied OMs are more plentiful or popular than bouzouki style instruments. I guess the same sort of question could come up about f-hole vs. oval hole octave mandolins (thinking of the new Eastman f hole model) when applied to traditional Irish music. With the OM already having such a different sound compared to the standard size, are we talking subtle differences between body styles or significant differences in projection, sustain, etc?

[MrMoe]

are we talking subtle differences between body styles or significant differences in projection, sustain, etc?

Based on the video of Lyn Hardy's octaves in sundays thread the differences seem siginifant to me.

[Parker135]

Based on the video of Lyn Hardy's octaves in sundays thread the differences seem siginifant to me.

That video, and others from her site, prompted my question. I thought her OM sounded great in that style of music. I don't have any comparison to what a bouzouki style OM would sound like playing the same tune, or what the Hardy mandolin would sound like playing a reel. Maybe the guitar body is just too non-traditional (whatever that means) to take to a session?

[MrMoe]

The web videos of the various Northfields are helpfull and show a wide range of sounds. The difference between their flat top with pin bridge compaired to the F hole arch top is interesting.

[Parker135]

I agree. I've been watching those also.

[meow-n-dolin]

With the OM already having such a different sound compared to the standard size, are we talking subtle differences between body styles or significant differences in projection, sustain, etc?

I have an Eastman OM. My neighbor plays a Pono (along with penny-whistles and hammered dulcimer). There is a big difference. The Pono's tone is a bit more like a guitar - a richer sound, and more sustain. She is a pretty hard-core Irish music fan, and doesn't play guitar, and it works perfectly for her for playing tunes and accompanying her voice.

I bought the Eastman BECAUSE is doesn't sound anything like a guitar. :)

[Lord of the Badgers]

I've owned a Gzouk, It also sounds NOTHING like a guitar and everything like a bouzouki - but yea a different too.
That was a forster.

Check out Aus/UK musician James Fagan and his Sobell.... ;-) he's one man i know loves the actual sound of a bouzouki and needs it not to sound like guitar, yet the sobell gzouk is probably his favourite instrument.

[Parker135]

Very interesting comments. Meow-n-dolin, it sounds like the Irish trad police have not come down too hard on your neighbor with the Pono. And Lord of the Badgers, I may have missed the intent of your message, but I see James Fagan playing a guitar body, not a Sobell bouzouki style instrument as I expected. Perhaps it's a Sobell GBOM. He of course sounds great either way. It sounds like I may just have to make the leap at some point. There are not a lot of places, especially right now, to try any kind of assortment of OMs. I don't sing, so this is something to fill in the gap for me for solo and maybe joining a session at some point. I like the lower octave of my banjo and the tone of the mandolin.

[meow-n-dolin]

I don't sing, so this is something to fill in the gap for me for solo and maybe joining a session at some point. I like the lower octave of my banjo and the tone of the mandolin.

That is one reason I got the OM -- so I don't have to take my mando, guitar, and banjo camping - just the OM :)
(It also completes my mando "family).

[Parker135]

That is one reason I got the OM -- so I don't have to take my mando, guitar, and banjo camping - just the OM :)
(It also completes my mando "family).

So how do you like the Eastman? Much is made of the differences between ovals and f-holes in mandolins for Irish, but I wonder if that's of as great an interest with octaves since they're so different to begin with.

[Lord of the Badgers]

Perhaps it's a Sobell GBOM.

exactly this - it's one of the holy grails amongst zouk players. He also owns a normal shaped Foley IIRC.

[Lord of the Badgers]

I have an Eastman OM. My neighbor plays a Pono (along with penny-whistles and hammered dulcimer). There is a big difference. The Pono's tone is a bit more like a guitar - a richer sound, and more sustain. She is a pretty hard-core Irish music fan, and doesn't play guitar, and it works perfectly for her for playing tunes and accompanying her voice.

I bought the Eastman BECAUSE is doesn't sound anything like a guitar. :)

maybe it's because the Pono is short scale as well - this will make it darker sounding than a gzouk.

[meow-n-dolin]

So how do you like the Eastman? Much is made of the differences between ovals and f-holes in mandolins for Irish, but I wonder if that's of as great an interest with octaves since they're so different to begin with.

I like it a lot. I chose it after comparing several different OMs on Youtube videos, including the Pono and I can't remember how many others. When I narrowed it down to an archtop. this is the video that sold me on the Eastman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiM8zoq9f20

After playing the Eastman, I switched to standard D'addario MANDOLA strings, and it sounded a bit more like the Weber (a bit more bass). I am unsure what strings Weber uses on their OM.

Happy hunting.

[meow-n-dolin]

So how do you like the Eastman? Much is made of the differences between ovals and f-holes in mandolins for Irish, but I wonder if that's of as great an interest with octaves since they're so different to begin with.

For the rest of your question, I have both oval- and f-hole mandos, and there is a definite difference. I have also played oval-hole and f-hole 'cellos, and again, a different sound, but with the guitar body, not quite as much difference as with the mandos. I have not played an oval-hole OM.

[MrMoe]

Regarding the video compairing the Eastman and the Webber, am I getting the idea if I think the webber sounds more Irish and the Eastman more country?

[Parker135]

Regarding the video comparing the Eastman and the Webber, am I getting the idea if I think the webber sounds more Irish and the Eastman more country?

They definitely have a different sound. The Webber sounds smoother (insert favorite words from the various mandolin sales pitches), maybe a little bassier, but not booming. The Eastman, to me, sounds brighter and almost like I'm hearing more string noise. I'd really like to hear both of them in the hands of an Irish trad player. I might go for the Eastman for that. For mellow, I'd go for the Webber, which must cost three times as much.

[meow-n-dolin]

Regarding the video compairing the Eastman and the Webber, am I getting the idea if I think the webber sounds more Irish and the Eastman more country?

Good Question. I am not sure. I am not entirely sure what "Irish" is supposed to sound like LOL.
They both have a nice "twang." Except in a head-to-head comparison, as in this example, I am not really sure I could pick out one from the other. Now, throw in the Northfield (which I would love to be able to find a way to justify purchasing), and the picture becomes even more muddy... :)

Northfield OM-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dmKVSRAEbQ

[meow-n-dolin]

They definitely have a different sound. The Webber sounds smoother (insert favorite words from the various mandolin sales pitches), maybe a little bassier, but not booming. The Eastman, to me, sounds brighter and almost like I'm hearing more string noise. I'd really like to hear both of them in the hands of an Irish trad player. I might go for the Eastman for that. For mellow, I'd go for the Webber, which must cost three times as much.

Yeppers. I put a set of mandola strings on my Eastman, just a bit heavier, and it sounded a little more mellow, though a bit short of the Weber. But when I replace the strings, I will go back to the standard set of D'Addarios. In my opinion, the Eastman does "twang" a bit better than "mellow." The Weber is sweet, though.

[meow-n-dolin]

maybe it's because the Pono is short scale as well - this will make it darker sounding than a gzouk.

Yeah, that would most definitely "soften" the sound.

[MrMoe]

Based on the web videos, I had not been impressed with the Northfeild flat top. The arch top is very impressive. As to where to see and try OMs, Mandolin Bros. in NY has been on my list of stores to visit for some time.

[Chuck Leyda]

There are difference of course but in terms of Irish sessions:
-Some don't want any stringed accompaniment.
-Some are fine with stringed accompaniment but they just have too many guitarist/zouks

If folks in the session like stringed accompaniment and they aren't overrun with too many, I can't imagine the shape of the zouk/om having any bearing on being accepted there!

[Steve-o]

I play a traditional flat top oval in an ITM session, and I also want a GBOM. I’ve played several of the f-hole Northfield GBOMs, and they don’t have the rounder sound and big sustain that I think is best suited for ITM. I also purchased one of the Eastman OMs when they first hit the market. I was disappointed with the sound and immediately returned it.

I’ve concluded that the f-hole arch top OMs are more percussive and project well, but they lack the sustain, warmth, and “jangly” sound that I find more appealing for ITM. That said, I haven’t had a chance yet to play a Pono or the Northfield flat top oval GBOMs yet, but they sound closer to my traditional oval in the videos I’ve listened to.

[zoukboy]

I'm considering an octave mandolin for Irish traditional playing to mix in with my standard oval hole and tenor banjo. It seems that guitar bodied OMs are more plentiful or popular than bouzouki style instruments. I guess the same sort of question could come up about f-hole vs. oval hole octave mandolins (thinking of the new Eastman f hole model) when applied to traditional Irish music. With the OM already having such a different sound compared to the standard size, are we talking subtle differences between body styles or significant differences in projection, sustain, etc?

No reason why you can't use a GBOM and make it work for Irish traditional music. Since you are using that term, do you plan to keep it in GDAE and play melodies on it? In that case I would say "forge ahead!" But a short scale GBOM tuned to GDAE won't sound or respond like a bouzouki, so it you want the bouzouki sound you'd need a different scale and GDAD or ADAD tuning. And if you want to avoid comparisons with bouzoukis just call it an octave mandolin. :-)

[Parker135]

No reason why you can't use a GBOM and make it work for Irish traditional music. Since you are using that term, do you plan to keep it in GDAE and play melodies on it? In that case I would say "forge ahead!" But a short scale GBOM tuned to GDAE won't sound or respond like a bouzouki, so it you want the bouzouki sound you'd need a different scale and GDAD or ADAD tuning. And if you want to avoid comparisons with bouzoukis just call it an octave mandolin. :-)

I'm after an octave mandolin so I can stick with GDAE. I'm happy playing a Vega banjo with a 23" scale, so it seems like I should be able to find something in the 21-23 inch range that would work. Maybe I'll just keep watching the classifieds here to see what pops up. An old Webber might be fun.

MrMoe above suggested Mandolin Bros in NY. Our kids are in Stamford CT and we hope to be able to visit again soon. I was thinking about checking out the Staten Island shop while we're over there, but I guess they're closed. Seems like maybe it's online only now.

[Pete Braccio]

I’m pretty sure that Mandolin Bros. shut down years ago.

[meow-n-dolin]

Based on the web videos, I had not been impressed with the Northfeild flat top. The arch top is very impressive. As to where to see and try OMs, Mandolin Bros. in NY has been on my list of stores to visit for some time.

I didn't know they made a flat-top. LOL

But I agree with you on the arch-top.

[MrMoe]

Darn, Thats old news too. I have not been to Nashville in years either. I hope the famous stores like Gruhn Guitars are able to keep going. Elderly Instruments in Lansing MI has a fairly good slection.

[nkforster]

Most of the guitar-bodied 8 strings I've made have been long scale, but I've made a few OM's. Here is one from a few years back..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxlD3KvGiNU

Its also possible to make a cheaper flat top Session King version or one with a Sobell-style soundboard. There are many options...

Nigel
https://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/guitar-bouzouki/

[MrMoe]

Mr. Forester's is certainly loud with a lot of sustain. Very lovely and interesting Instruments! I am still having trouble quantifying Irish sound. While he puts the kettle on I am going to have some Jameson, after which I will be thinking of Glenlevet (attack and release).

[Parker135]

The more I listen to octave mandolins, the more I think I'm misguided in what I'm after. I like playing melody on the mandolin and the tenor banjo. But most of what I see/hear on the octave is strumming chords to accompany others or for singing. Does the octave mandolin have too much sustain for melody playing? Does it get muddy sounding?

[meow-n-dolin]

The more I listen to octave mandolins, the more I think I'm misguided in what I'm after. I like playing melody on the mandolin and the tenor banjo. But most of what I see/hear on the octave is strumming chords to accompany others or for singing. Does the octave mandolin have too much sustain for melody playing? Does it get muddy sounding?

Try this on for size :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EqVC20WdI0

[MrMoe]

One I built doing a variety of things
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3yW6i3kwWM&feature=youtu.be

[nkforster]

The more I listen to octave mandolins, the more I think I'm misguided in what I'm after. I like playing melody on the mandolin and the tenor banjo. But most of what I see/hear on the octave is strumming chords to accompany others or for singing. Does the octave mandolin have too much sustain for melody playing? Does it get muddy sounding?

Seems to me you may be over complicating things.

How much sustain gets in the way is down to your technique and playing style rather than the instrument itself. This instrument has a lot of sustain:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItgPyHwsYcc

But because of Adams' technique, it doesn't 'get in the way." And it means if a tune demands sustain, it's there.

How muddy an instrument sounds is down to construction, and that is down to what maker you choose.

Nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com

[MrMoe]

[QUOTE=nkforster;1810567]Seems to me you may be over complicating things.

How much sustain gets in the way is down to your technique and playing style rather than the instrument itself.

I agree 100%. My Instrument collection is mostly junky old Harmonys. When I play them the result is quite horrible. Pinched and sour seems to be my sound. I have a talented friend who is able to make any of my junkers sing like a Wood Thrush. Even the ones with bad intonation he can sort out with his touch.

[Parker135]

Wow, thanks, guys. Thanks for posting those examples. Nigel, I wouldn't do justice to one of your instruments, but I'm now convinced I have to try an OM. I've built three Arm/Navy style mandolins, so maybe I'll look into building an octave. I just ordered a copy of Graham McDonald's book to get a little better idea. I'm aware of Don Kawalek's kits, but I like starting out at a nearby hardwood supplier. Thanks again. Very inspiring.

[foldedpath]

The more I listen to octave mandolins, the more I think I'm misguided in what I'm after. I like playing melody on the mandolin and the tenor banjo. But most of what I see/hear on the octave is strumming chords to accompany others or for singing. Does the octave mandolin have too much sustain for melody playing? Does it get muddy sounding?

In my view, after having pondered the "place" of an OM for years and playing one, I think it's a wonderful melody instrument for Irish and Scottish trad tunes. But it needs some room to breathe. It doesn't do well playing melody along with other instruments unless those other instruments are giving it room to be heard, especially guitars that sit in the same range of pitch and timbre.

It's also my belief that it does best with slower tunes, because as an instrument it doesn't "speak" as quickly as mandolin for the faster Irish dance tunes, and slower tempos let you take advantage of the sustain. I use mine for slower tunes mostly because I love using that sustain. I play faster tunes on mandolin (or flute).

Anyway, here are two examples of an OM being used for melody at slower tempos. The second one isn't an OM but it's close: a "latmandola" with the addition of a low bass string.


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[MrMoe]

Wow, thanks, guys. Thanks for posting those examples. Nigel, I wouldn't do justice to one of your instruments, but I'm now convinced I have to try an OM. I've built three Arm/Navy style mandolins, so maybe I'll look into building an octave. I just ordered a copy of Graham McDonald's book to get a little better idea. I'm aware of Don Kawalek's kits, but I like starting out at a nearby hardwood supplier. Thanks again. Very inspiring.

Mine are simple copies of the old flat mandolins only bigger and with a dome built into the top and back, rather than flat, or with a hump. Be inspired! Enjoy building. I think you will enjoy an octave, especialy one made by your own hands. Best Regards, Maurice