French & European Luthiers

[flipper]

Can anyone recommend any of the French mandolin luthiers or other european builders? I want a mandolin and since I live in France, I am thinking it would be good to consider buying locally from a French luthier or from a european luthier instead of buying an import like a Michael Kelly. I'm mostly a guitar and dobro player, so i'd rather get away with spending less than 1000 €uros, but I could spend up to 2000 €uros. Thanks

[HoGo]

Check out the czech makers. They are great (Krishot, Holoubek, Capek and some others) and you may find some of their instruments in your range. You can find a nice used mandolin made by one of these makers in the Czech Republic. There are allways some for sale in the music stores and prices are much lower than in the western EU.
You may ask some czech players at festivals. They often know of a good instruments for sale.

[flipper]

Thanks for the response. I'm really interested in Holoubek and even e-mailed the German distributor for price quotes a few weeks ago, but never got a response. I hear nothing but great things about his squareneck resonator guitars. I'll look into the other names you gave me...maybe I can find some used instruments around Paris.

[Mike Bunting]

Flatbush mandolins (http://www.flatbush.dk/)
Here's another.

[August Watters]

Hey Flipper

Of the Czech builders, the most experienced ones who are still in your price range (A styles) would be:

Capek
Janish
Krishot (by Kristufek)
Prucha
Lebeda

Any of these would be light years beyond the manufactured instrument you mentioned -- these builders have all been building more than 20 years, and are VERY good, due to long-term demand from a well-developed Czech bluegrass scene. They all have dealer agreements in place, though, so it will be difficult or impossible to buy directly.

Holoubek is above your price range now -- and since he has a waiting list of US customers, you're not likely to get one unless you can find it used somewhere.

There are newer Czech builders who are less expensive, but these are the guys who are the best. Full disclosure: I represent Holoubek, Capek and Janish (but not the others) in the US & Canada (not in Europe).

August Watters
http://www.galleryofstrings.com

[August Watters]

One more idea:

Last I heard there was a used Holoubek A5 at Dream Catcher Guitars in Roswell, Georgia. Probably in your price range.

August Watters
http://www.galleryofstrings.com

Flipper...within the next week or so two mandolins will be received by Cafe members by another Czech builder who as of yet is not well known to the States but based on what I have seen thus far is an exceptional builder and offers most attractive prices. Keep your eyes open for the comments on Pavel Sucek's work. The Czech Republic is certainly a rich culture for world class instruments. Great time to give serious consideration to these fine craftsmen. Hope you find what you're looking for in an instrument.

dennis Benjamin
Pavel Sucek Mandolins

[flipper]

Thanks for all the replies. I am definitely going to research #the Czech builders. Also, I'm coming to the United States this week (Thursday the 18th) and I'll be in eastern TN and at the Suwanee Springfest Bluegrass Festival in Florida. I was wondering if there are vendors selling mandolins at the festival. I have already decided to bring back a Martin D-18GE, but there is always the possibility of bringing back a mandolin as my carry on.

[Martin Jonas]

As you're in the EU, you may want to check out Acoustic Music (http://www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk/) in Brighton. They stock Capek, Furch, Holoubek and Lebeda along with many of the small and large US and UK makers. The Furchs in particular do start below 1000 Euros. Prices are listed clearly on their web site and all the mandolins listed are actually in stock and typically delivered within a few days from ordering. Their prices seem to be just about the cheapest in the UK, although with the dollar being as weak as it is now, buying in the US and bringing it back as carry-on is likely to be a lot cheaper.

Martin
(No connection with Acoustic Music, but I have in the past bought from them. I am a bit sceptical about their generally enthusiastic praise of every single mandolin they offer on their web site.)

[August Watters]

I'm not skeptical about the praise of every mandolin on the Acoustic Music Co. website -- Trevor has done his homework, found the best mandolins available in all price ranges, and brought them together in one place. If Trevor says something is outstanding at the price offered, you can bet he's done the research to back it up.

August Watters
http://www.galleryofstrings.com

[HoGo]

Don't confuse Furch With hand makers! Furch is already a factory. They make great guitars but their mandolin line looks more like it was inspired by asian imports. they use PRESSED solid tops and backs on most their mandolins and I've seen many of their mandolin tops sink in a less than two years, however some of those mandolins sounded great. There is a big used instruments market in the Czech rep. so there is a chance you can find even used early Holoubek F in your range.
IMHO if you go for sound the order would be
Krishot, Holoubek, Capek, Novotny, Lebeda
If you go for looks:
Holoubek, Capek, Krishot, Novotny, Lebeda...

Shameless....plug.....

I will be beating this drum for a long time since this builder is not yet known. Pavel Sucek offers A styles for $1100 F5's for $1500 all top grade tonewoods...hand carved and tuned etc. He is new to the American Market but is an Exceptional builder. I have owned two Krishot F5's which were both fine instruments but I would prefer Mr. Sucek's work "hands down". I recently implored Pavel to raise his prices to reflect the high quality of playability and sound he is producing but he refused until in his words "he is just right and deserving and fit and finish is perfect. As they are his mandolins are beautiful. Spectacular Tone and Powerful. Whew....there I've been wanting to say that for a week.....the nearest mandolins I can compare his work to are the early Nugget's I played in Colorado. They are that good for thousands less than what i would price them at...
I feel much better.....



Dennis Benjamin
Pavel Sucek Mandolins

[Lee]

That good, eh? # You've just made my wait that much more difficult.

[daikon]

My Sucek is being mailed from the Czech Republic today.

I'm quivering with anticipation!

[August Watters]

Hhooooo boy. . .as long as we're descending into huge generalizations and shameless plugs ---

There is a wide range of quality in the Czech builders listed here. Some are arguably as good as the best western builders -- others clearly are not.

Furch is indeed a factory -- but their earliest mandolins were hand-carved, and very good instruments. Lebeda is also a larger-scale operation than the rest -- George Lebeda is a great builder, but unlike the others on this list, he employs several other luthiers to build the instruments that bear his name. Same is true of Prucha, to a smaller degree. The others are one-man shops, more or less.

Hogo, your list overlooks some differences I'd find important, IMHO:

More traditional, Gibson-like tone: Capek, Krishot, Prucha
More modern, flexible tone: Holoubek, Janish, Lebeda
Fantastic oval-hole mandolins: Capek
Best finish work: Holoubek, Janish, Lebeda
Outstanding playability: Janish, Holoubek
Lowest prices for a top-level instrument: Capek, Krishot
(I haven't seen Sucek yet, and don't know if he's in this category)
Most experienced: Krishot, Capek, Lebeda, Janish, Holoubek
Newer builders, not as experienced: Novotny, Sucek

I'd agree that Sucek may be undervalued -- as a newer builder without dealer agreements in place, he can still sell directly to the customer -- but to compare him to Nugget is pretty extreme -- there are a lot of good builders nowadays, and a number of the second-tier builders are approaching the quality of the "Big 4." Certainly any comparison of Czech builders to the western builders needs to be based on a broad sampling of today's best builders -- many of whom have small names, not big ones.

Also, Hogo, your list doesn't include Janish at all -- one of CZ's most experienced builders, who's certainly on a par with the best "second tier" builders in the West.

Disclaimers in previous post. . .

August Watters
http://www.galleryofstrings

[Alec]

Flipper: If you are near the Italian border you might consider Valerio Gorla in Milan or Corrado Giacomel in Genoa.
Valerio makes a beautiful flat top. I bought one a couple of years ago and it's superb and well within your price range. Corrado makes spectacular instruments with innovative designs, but wouldn't be overly expensive.
Both are listed in the builder's section. Valerio's email address is wrong so it's best to call him. Corrado has a web site ( www.corradogiacomel.it ) that is really worth looking at - his J series especially.
Also I can recommend both of them as being honest and great guys to deal with.

Alec.

hmmm...just saw this. I've owned and loved Nugget's my favorite mandos in the world...thats why the excitement. In truth American customers do in fact need to go thru Pavel's Rep here in the States. Great Value.

[Lee]

Pavel just told me mine's shipping today too. And I'm closer to him than Daikon, Hah!

August, that was a well presented and useful comparison. #As a dealer you probably have a large basis for comparison too.

[taipan]

How would you go about getting a Krishot? Only place I've seen them advertised was an American dealer. Certainly they're not in TAMCO (Brighton) for now. Anyone know of any European dealers for them?

[Spencer]

First time I've seen Novotny mentioned. I got a mandolin from him about 5 years ago, when Houloubek was just starting to make mandolins. Finish wise it is pretty rough, and there were a few problems with it which were relatively simple to fix up, but sound-wise I thought it was as good as or better than anything else I played down there at the time. It was also half the price of the other instruments at that time. Prices have gone up a lot since then. I haven't seen any Novotny's since, he's been at it a while, but I don't think he makes a lot of instruments.

There are some nice instruments made in the Czech Republic, but I still prefer my Flatbush to any that I have played.

Spencer

www.copenhagenmountainboys.dk

[August Watters]

About Novotny: these are readily available in Prague; I've seen them in stores there. It's true the prices are far below the others, but IMHO so is the quality. The Czech musicians I know think of Novotny as a good builder for the Czech market, but not yet ready for export. I'd compare the quality to some of the better beginning-level builders I've seen here in the US.

Correction about Holoubek: he's been building mandolins about 15 years, beginning as an apprentice to Rosta Capek in the early 1990s. He began building both mandolins and resonator guitars under his own name in 1997.

August Watters
http://www.galleryofstrings.com

[August Watters]

About finding Krishot in Europe: I don't see anything on the website now, but this dealer in Germany is a likely place:
http://www.streichholz-schachtel.de/

Or just write directly; address is in the co-mando.com database

[August Watters]

It's a fascinating combination of political, economic and cultural factors that have led to the current situation: a handful of world-class luthiers building bluegrass instruments for a sizeable domestic market, and recently exporting to the US. To those of us in the west, it's not self-evident why this should happen, or even be possible -- but by looking at our own instrument-making traditions a little more closely, the connections all come into focus.

We Americans tend to look back only as far as C. F Martin and Orville Gibson -- but Gibson studied European violin design extensively, and Martin was himself a product of the European lutherie guilds. The Czechs were among the central European cultures that perfected violin design while we were still throwing tea in the harbor, so it should come as no surprise that they know something about stringed instruments.

Without writing my master’s thesis, here are some of the most important factors I think contributed to the achievements of the Czech builders:

CULTURAL FACTORS:
-strong history of string instrument building
-strong domestic bluegrass scene & demand for instruments
-similarities between US & European folk music traditions
-popularity of folk music festivals in the post-war era
-influx of visiting US musicians after 1989

POLITICAL FACTORS:
-large levels of interest in US culture and musical traditions
-frustration felt at creative limitations under Communism
-reaction against Soviet quashing of reform in 1968

ECONOMIC FACTORS:
-Inability to afford imported instruments required building domestically
-ready availability of first-rate tonewood, and specialized harvesting traditions
-financial opportunities offered by addressing domestic demand for bluegrass instruments -- despite Communist-era ban on free enterprise

I can’t claim to be unbiased about the quality of the Czech builders, since I’ve begun to represent some of them -- but I think the best of them, who have been building for more than 20 years, are doing work that shows maturity and depth similar to their best US/Canadian counterparts.

August Watters
http://www.galleryofstrings.com
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Alekos]

August is absollutely right. For example Pavel Sucek started building his first guitar before during the era of socialism, because there weren't any good-quality instruments - market was full of many lowend plywood instruments that were indeed very cheap, but totaly unapplicable. This make many musicans(for example Furch) to start building their own instruments illegaly(communist government did not want to allow that - this was called "unpermited enriching"). After the velvet revolution many of these builders founded their workshops and started building and selling their instruments legally, also to the west.

[August Watters]

One story I've heard from several of the builders is that under Communism it was not possible to build bluegrass instruments legally -- all instrument making was done in government-approved shops, and those built only government-approved instruments. Most were cheap, poor-quality instruments, although my impression is that some good violin-making operations may have survived the Communist-era planners.

Despite the lack of an official channel for making bluegrass instruments, there was enormous demand -- so quite a few luthiers took it on themselves to build for this market, at night, in their basements under cover of secrecy. These instruments were traded illegally through informal networks and at music festivals -- which were (and still are) plentiful.

My impression is that in the final years of Communist rule, the authorities had worse forms of unrest to worry about than home-made instruments -- but maybe our Czech and Slovak friends in this discussion could tell us more -- how dangerous was it for these illegal builders during the Communist era? I've heard the government relied on an extensive network of informants, but was this a realistic threat for a luthier?

August Watters
http://www.galleryofstrings.com

[Alekos]

Well, everyone who worked without "blessing" of the government could have a big problems with the law. The problem wasn't it what instrument they were building(there wasn't any difference if you were building banjo or balalaika), but the luthiers weren't allowed to build privily. Government don't needed private bussinesmans, they needed labourers to build socialistic regime. That's why there were only few government controlled companys, that produced poor instruments; the instruments were made just by theese labourers in big masses.

[PCypert]

Hey,
I told this story to Spare Change, but thought I'd share it with the mando community. I've done mission work in the Czech Republic. They are the neatest people. I felt right at home (too bad it was before my mando days). Anyway, they are the most humble people. This means that they won't admit to doing something until they are really proficient. This is a generalization, but for the most part true. For instance, there were kids we'd be talking to through a translator. We'd find out one spoke english and would ask them to speak for us. They'd look away and say that they couldn't really. When in fact they could. We'd find out they had 8 years or more of lessons. So I would say the average Czech person if they have announced they are luthiers and are looking to export are probably very descent at the least if not very proficient.
Paul

[HoGo]

August, I didn't forget Mr. Janish. But he as well as Prucha is known here as a banjo maker, not a mandolin maker. I believe that they have helpers to work on their mandolins. I've never seen any of his mandolins in the hands of czech players.... I have played just one of his mandolins and wasn't impressed. The body shape was more like an old Siminoff than a standard F-5.
Concerning the possibility to legally build instruments one should be a memeber of a violin-making guild to make violins under own name and all the top czech builders were considered top european builders. Yesterday there were two documents on CzechTV about violinmakers' family of Spidlen's one of them from the late 70's....

HoGo....thank you for sharing information about the instrument building culture within the country. Its fascinating for me personally to hear about such a rich history of builders. How did Bluegrass become popular in the Czech Republic? I have heard there are some nice festivals. Thanks for any additional information you might share.

[HoGo]

Spare Change, I have to say I'm not in Czech republic. I'm in Slovakia, it's the eastern part of the former Czechoslovakia (since '93 Slovakia and the Czech rep.). But I studied history of violin making in central Europe. To say truth 99% of the CS luthiery was concentrated in the westernmost part of the Czech part. The tradition of making dates to times of old Italian makers and there were times when one of Czech makers was more valued in germany and central Europe than Strad... The tradition of violinmakers families has been strong in CZ for last two centuries. Private business was not allowed during the communism, but artists (like painters, luthiers, sculptors..) were allowed to work as members of the "guilds". Their work was exported through state owned companies even to western countries. And the instruments bore the names of their makers. Most of the prominent makers attended international competitons and the best of them were sometimes judges on such ocassions.
The bluegrass instruments making is, however, different. Most of the BG instruments makers started as amateurs. Just because the instruments were not available or way too expensive to buy. There is a huge "tramp movement" in CZ since pre WW1 days (and in Slovakia, too), these guys are something like US hobo's they camped during the weekends in mountains with giutars, they began to create their own style of music (referred to as Tramp Music) which was influenced by early Swing and later with Country&Western music. The BG came in the late 60's or 70's. The oldest czech BG& Country music festival took place (I think) before first such festival in the US (some 30yrs ago) (try to search for "Banjo Jamboree")
First instruments were really crude looking creatures. Most often even the size was not correct. But the makers beacame better and they started copying the instruments they saw in the hands of invited US bands. That's how it started. After the fall of communism the most succesfull makers started selling their instruments in foreign countries including the US....
FYI: to make instruments legally (as self enployed) here in Slovakia (I think in CZ it is similar) you need certificate from instrument making school od general woodworking school plus two years of experience...

[Lee]

My Sucek arrived. Allow me a chance to open it.

Congrats Lee...it did make it by the 23rd after all. Hope you are please w/your new mandolin.

[Lee]

6-days Pilsen-Philly, just as Expresni Posta promised.

[New Acoustic Gallery]

Hello,
please check out www.newacousticgallery.com to get more infos about Furch mandolins and the fantastic PRUCHA mandos!! Shipping is worldwide!
Best regards
NAG

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I don't mean to muddy the waters here but how about another Czech
(I believe) builder - Milan Ulma. Very little known and I have seen
only two examples of his work on the net - an A style that nobody bid
on on ebay and a highly modified F at this site.

http://www.om28.com/snewguit/ulma.html

In contacting the ebay seller I was told that
his Fs ordinarily look very traditional and are
in fact based on Stew Mac plans. This was an experiment
I've no idea how it sounds. The mando on
ebay appeared to be very well done (fit and finish)
triple binding radiused fretboard and all however
the wood was very plain. Initial price was $750
and I don't know what the reserve was probably a grand
or so I'm guessing. I thought about bidding but I did end
up being out of town at the time of closing. That being
said I'm gonna contact the seller and see what happened to
the mando and enquire about getting pics of other work and
maybe consider ordering one. The seller is a guitarist who
made friends with Milan while living in Europe and has helped
Milan out selling occasional Ulma mandos for him. That's all
I know. If any of you out there know more about these mandos please do post.

Take Care! -Ed-

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

A quick followup. For those of you interested this was the A style of Ulma's on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3714252582

Take Care! -Ed-