Pick hand motion

[Stillpicking]

Actually I use 3 different right hand attacks

1. a wide open almost full arm motion with almost equal up and down strokes kind of a chop but with a double back beat (used on fast fiddle tunes)

2. single notes picked in an up and down motion with some reach in I think?

3. tremolo single notes and sometimes 2 at the same time.

I actually sometimes use all 3 of the above in one tune and switch around. I can get away with it because I play with a bunch of fiddlers so they carry the main tune. I fill in spots within the fiddle tune to add some variety and color to it and also drive the back beat when I think the fiddlers need it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[duuuude]

You could try rest strokes, downstrokes picked in a slightly inward direction and coming to rest on the next course. Try it with scales, arpeggios, etc. and it will help give your right hand an alternative to the "plucking" motion. Then maybe throw in upstrokes only followed by rest strokes on the same course of strings, if that makes any sense, arpeggios sweeps are good for this.

[Flowerpot]

The problem I see with using rest strokes is this: if the next note will be an upstroke on a higher string, you are out of luck. In general, if you plan on doing some improvised playing, where the right hand movements can't be planned and practiced in detail, you will need some sort of 3-D motion to be able to skip the strings you don't want to hit and make contact with the one you do. John Reischman relates his thumb/finger pick action to a sewing machine, going up and down enough to swoop down on the string while the hand/wrist is providing most of the pick sweep. But I've seen guys like Sam Bush really "flatten out" if there's a section with a long string of notes just on the E string (like the classic 2nd B part break to "Daybreak in Dixie") -- on that specific part, you can just whack away without worrying about getting to the other strings.

[Dfyngravity]

It all depends on what you want to get out of the pick stroke. Say you are playing a fiddle tune or a song that doesn't really skip around a lot. I would say you can use a "single plane" pick stroke. Although when I do this, the plane is actually tilted a little inwards if that makes sense. So when you make your down stroke your thumb moves down but slightly into the strings and on the up stroke your thumb moves up and away from the stings.

Now when I am cross picking which I do a lot then my stroke will change to get back up the a string that is not directly above the one I just played. Lets say I am playing a single note on the G strings, then the D string, then the A string and then back to the G string. The first three stokes would be the same "single plane" stroke but to get back to the G string after playing the note on the A string I "loop" the stroke. So really my thumb moves down into and through the A string then it raises a little bit and comes back down and into the G strings, therefore making a little "loop" stroke. Does that make sense?

Anyways that's just how I do things. If you really think about it that just how is happens normally to get a good clean sound.

[Andy Morton]

Very timely thread for me because I have been trying to "flatten out" my pick stroke to achieve more speed and smoothness--even at medium speeds. Cross picking will of course require some looping or plucking I guess---but it seems to me the flatter the better. The plucking (in/out sweep) motion is inherently slower it seems because it involves a more complex movement of the hand versus picking in a single plane. I have sometimes likened the the flatter, brushing motion of picking as kind of like "slinging" the pick.

THe other aspect of this motion for me--is that I don't let the pick travel that far past the string after I have played that string--as in a tremelo.

Anyway, I am trying develop a flatter type picking motion even at medium speeds (170--180 bpm--quarter notes) because when I use the in-out plucking motion my hand feels very "clubby."

Any suggestions, comments, testimonials, etc. would be welcome.

Andy Morton
Madison, WI

[Dfyngravity]

Well I guess it is also in which style you want to play. The Monroe style is definitly the more "flat" stroke that goes through the strings rather than picking the individual string it self. However, the "loop" stroke or one that isn't really flat can be played rather fast. Take a look at Chris Thile. There is only one way someone can play that clean and that is by having a slight loop in the stroke. And fast?, well yeah he can absolutly burn up a mandolin, so there is no question in speed.

Speed in itself is a completly different animal. Speed is merely the fact that your brain can time your left hand to your right hand, and that they can move at the same speed. Speed is something that comes with a lot of practice and a lot of TIME. People are always asking how Chris Thile could play so fast at the ages of 13-15 when he put out his first 2 solo projects. Well, if you think about it, he already have 10 years of playing and instruction. And now, he can play even faster, but he's been playing for 20 years. So TIME is everthing.

I think you should develope a stroke that you want and then worry about whether you can play fast or not a little bit later on down the road.

[SGraham]

I took a couple of lessons with Evan Marshall to see if he could help me get my right-hand technique cleaned up. One of the first things he noticed was that I was making an excessive out-and-in motion as I picked--almost plucked the strings. He called it "sewing." This evidently wastes a lot of energy, since when I flattened out my stroke my speed increased, and my hand got less tired.
# # #Also, his concept of the basic, foundational pick stroke is a rest stroke like this: Imagine you are holding an egg in your left hand. Using a small hammer in your right, you give it a light tap--just enough to crack it. That's the wrist motion. Sometimes, because of speed or jumping to a new string you can't use a rest stroke, but the basic motion remains the same. Our hands are all built differently, but I've found the concept helpful.

[AlanN]

I like Evan's egg analogy, very appropriate. And I would just add that the resultant follow-through is equally important.

Lou Martin had some good advice - "Let your right and left hands 'hang' for that ancient tone" - I like that.

[Mandomax]

I had a private lesson with Mike Compton, and he made the same comment as Wakefield did that San Rafeal referenced in his post. He watched my right hand, and commented on the excessive up and down motion ("sewing" like Evan Marshall called it in the previous post) in my picking. He advised making a similar motion to the one Evan did. Good advice. It definitely brings out the tone when you combine the free floating right hand with picking through the strings.

[SGraham]

[QUOTE]Lou Martin had some good advice - "Let your right and left hands 'hang' for that ancient tone" - I like that.

Alan: Your Lou Martin reference is really intriguing. Could you explain it? Thanks!

[jmcgann]

"Scrape or pluck"?

Caress! :cool:

[billkilpatrick]

this thread made me aware of what i'm doing - or not - when i pick, thanks.

would the size of the pick have any bearing on how accurate and speedy one gets with it? i just tried one of those tiny mandolin picks from fender, instead of the guitar pick and found there's an improvement on accuracy, at least. wish they weren't so uncomfortable to hold.

- bill

[AlanN]

Steve,

The essence of Lou's rather Zen-like advice is, as I see it, to make sure you milk the note for all its worth; meaning, keep you left hand finger on the note completely through its lifecycle before going to the next. And from the RH end, just let it "hang" after string strike. So, both hands work together simultaneously for a given note.

Now keep in mind that Lou, when discussing Monroe, professes about the (and I quote) "levitical mode of bluegrass mandolin and the patriarchal/matriarchal musical motifs present in Monroe's music."

Gee, I wonder if Bill thought of it that way http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[billkilpatrick]

... took the words right out of my mouth.

- not "the" Bill but "a" bill.

[OdnamNool]

Pick/Shmick.

I mean...picnic! Ya know... a bottle o' vino, cheese, fresh bread, salame... crisp pickles... mmmmmm....... apples, er....... pretzels.... I'm gettin' hungry! Yeooowww! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[SGraham]

I wonder what Bill would have said if asked about #those pesky #"patriarchal/matriarchal musical motifs" in his music. Seriously though, I really like Martin's word picture. Thanks for the explanation, Alan. Evan said something similar about letting the pick hang out on the next string (after the rest stroke) for as long as possible before cycling it back for the next note. I bet that affects what your left hand is doing as well.

[AlanN]

It's all a matter of playing with just enough force to make your musical statement, no more, no less. Say what you may about Thile, but he is a master at doing just that.