Folk of the Wood NEW OWNERSHIP

[banjoguy]

Folk of the Wood has been sold. My name is Jay Castleberry,
I am the new manager of Folk of the Wood. Mickey Cochran has sold 100% of his ownership and interest of FOTW. I am aware of the problems, that some of the members of this forum have experienced in the past. Some of you have already been contacted by me personally.
When a business is sold the purchaser buys assets as well as liabilities and debts. The new owners are resolving all the existing liabilities and debts. The sale of FOTW has been in the works for some time now. This process will be complete in the next 2 days.
I am posting this message to let everyone know of the change in ownership as well as personnel at FOTW. JAMES TOFFELMEIR IS NO LONGER AFFILIATED IN ANY WAY WITH FOTW. Any future postings by James Toffelmeir on this forum, or other forums are in no way associated with FOTW. Nathan Lippert has also left FOTW. The overwhelming majority of customers of FOTV have had great experiences, my self included. I have purchased 4 instruuments from FOTW, over the years. Unfortunately some of you have not. If you have any unresolved issues you are welcome to call me at our toll free line listed on our web site. If you prefer e-mail use info@folkofthewood.com
In the subject line please type ATTN Jay Castleberry
Since this posting is a bit long I will post another to introduce myself and talk about the future of the company
and some policy changes.
Thank You
Jay Castleberry, MGR

[mando_pete]

Jay,

Will you honor the former FOTW life time trade up policy?

Thanks,
-- pete

[banjoguy]

II guess I'm not the only picker that doesn't have a gig tonight.
Pete we will be changing the trade up policy. It is simply not an economically sustainable policy. I feel this policy has been part of FOTW woes. We are in the
process of of creating a new trade in policy. Most music companies do not offer any
type of trade in policy. The 100% trade up policy was a very ambitious policy. I have read quite a few posting from members questioniong how can FOTW do it. I suppose if customers that started with a low priced import traded up to a hgh end hand built instrument than it could conceivably work. The policy as it is written allows for our customers to trade up, for example from $140. instument to a $200 instrument. In this senario the amount of profit margin is simply not there. The store actually loses money in such a transaction. If you think about it there is not another product anywhere that is sold with this option We are working on a new policy that will still offer a trade in option and still enable our customers a way to purchase better quality instruments as there abilities increase. I relize it is still on our website, however we will be changing it soon.
Thanks for the reply

[Frank Russell]

banjoguy - I would suggest talking to the folks at Buffalo Bros. Guitars. They have had a 100% trade-up policy for many years, and would seem to have been successful with it. I have used it myself many times, and it is part of the reason I am a loyal customer. They have managed to make a good deal of money from me over the last few years, and have added more than a couple of good mandolins to their used inventory by means of that policy. Good luck to you on your venture, hopefully most of us that were burned in the past by FOTW will give you a chance. Frank

[banjoguy]

Frank,
I stand corrected. I have never done business with Buffalo
Bros. However I have seen ther web site. Looks like they have some really nice instruments ( I really like vintage, this is any area we plan to develope with FOTW also) I appeciate your willingness to give us a chance. You said" most of us who have been burned by FOTW" in your reply. If you have any unresolved issues with FOTW please call me this coming Monday
Our store hours are 9:00am-5:00pm Mountain time. You also said good luck with your future venture. Thank you! I truely believe FOTW is a great company unfortunately it has has experienced some growing pains as many small businesse do. I'm not making any excuses for things that happened before I became involved, but I am sincere in my desire to reestablish its great reputation, it has had in the past. I hope I did not give the impression I am one of the new owners. I have been hired to manage the business.
Don't want to make this the Jay show but I would like to tell you a little about myself, so you know who you are dealing with.
I became a certified luthier in 1978 Roberto-Venn School of Luthiery
1979- 1983 Full time performing Musician
Opening acts are a dime a dozen, but through the years I've
been fortunate to be able to open shows with various bands I've played with for some of my musical heroes. Among these
were Doc Watson, Norman Blake, B W Stevenson, Townes Van Zandt, Steve Fromholtz, Lucinda Williams, Doug Sahm and others. Out of space more to follow

[Keith Newell]

Hey whats a guy with the handle "Banjoguy" doing selling mandolins??
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[banjoguy]

Well since I'm making an effort to introduce myself I suppose I should explain.
In 1999 I moved from Eugene,Or to Ruidoso,Nm. Oregon has a large bluegrass scene.
Banjo is my main instrument( please don't hold that against me) When I first moved
here, I was having trouble finding bluegrass musicians or many other accoustic musicians for that matter, Ruidoso pop. roughly 8,000 As a joke to my sorely missed musician friends in Oregon I chose "banjoguy" as part of my e-mail address, explaining to them, that there were only 11 banjopickers in New Mexico and since I could sorta frail I waw actually considered to be two of them. Since then I have met a great deal of talented and devoted players around the state. plus my wife has convinced me to give up trying to be funny

[Greenmando]

Welcome to the forum and I hope you continue to post here.

[banjoguy]

Tom
Thanks for the greeting I do plan to post here. This evening is the first time I have ever posted on a forum of any sort on the net. I like to spend my free time playing music. Long ago, I realized thatI would never get to the level of playing I'd like to be at, but I suppose the enjoyment is trying to get there. This was my first week as Mgr at FOTW. I managed to get 62 hours in. as I mentioned earlier I have been working to resolve some of the problems customers have had in the past. We are working very hard at this. Most folks that I have had the opportunity to visit with
have told me they would be kind enough to post on this forum regarding the results of our conversations. As to what they will say will be up to them.
Thanks again, It is almost 1:00 am Mt.time I will probably not answer any more replies tonight. To those of you who have replied to my original message regarding
new ownership of FOTW. Thank you for you interest and feedback. And I really appreciate the fact no one has made fun of my typos, I'm starting to realize I shouldn't have skipped all those typing classes back in high school
Thanks
Jay Castleberry Mgr FOTW

[JimW]

Jay, I happen to be one of the lucky ones that used my credit card company to recover over $1200.00 that was fraudulently charged to me by Mickey and his cronies (staff). If this new ownership is legit, I do wish you the best.

However, I can't help but be a little skeptical. Before I would ever consider buying even a flat-pick off of FOTW, I would have to see some very hard proof that Mickey Cochran and any of his family or former employees have NO involvement or ties to this business. In my opinion, that crew belongs behind bars and any privileges to ever own or run a business be revoked for life.

On the surface, it just seems that FOTW's reputation got the best of them and this is a ploy to "revitalize" business. I hope this isn't the case, but please, PROVE to me that I'm wrong.

Jim Watts

[banjoguy]

Jim,
Thanks for the feed back. I'm glad you money issue has been resolved. I certainly understand your skepticism. I did not step into this position quickly. My decision to become Mgr took about 6 weeks. The new owners wanted to be sure about me, and I wanted to be sure of them. I have never been one to participate in on line discussions. I was unaware of the problems that existed. When I was approached by the new owners about this position I started reading the forums,additionally we discussed in depth the task of restoring the companys reputation
I realize some of you will probably never do business with FOTW again due to your bad experence and association of the business name.I would be remiss if I did not point out that the vast majority of FOTV customers have had positve experiences. I also realize that is of little concern or comfort to someone who has had a problem

As new Mgr. I regret the loss of your future business and referrals. I can only ask that you give us a chance. By that, I don't mean you have to pick up the phone and order something today ( although that would be great). But continue to read this forum and others (banjo hangout) Those of you that continue your relationship with FOTV PLEASE post about your positive experiences with us. Those of you that I and the new owners have personally called to resolve your problems. Please post your experience with us as to how we are taking care of your individual problems.
Jim you do not know me from Adam, so I'm sure it will simply take time and observation to see what I and the new FOTV do in the future.
Thanks for you letter

Jay Castleerry Mgr FOTW

[Buddah]

Jay,

You've got a tough row to hoe. FOTW has lied to and cheated a number of the good folks on this forum-I'm personally still owed an amount in the low four-figures. But I guess that you've got to start somewhere.
I emailed you this morning with the specifics of my situation. I guess we'll see......

[Chris "Bucket" Thomas]

I am a satisfied FOTW customer.

Also, the website contains a wealth of info about setup etc

[gnelson651]

I would like to wish you well Jay. My only purchase from FOTW was the "Intro to the Mandolin" about 1 1/2 year ago. It came in a reasonable time and I enjoyed the video instruction. I have never bought an instrument from your company, although I considered it when I was looking for my first mandolin.

Hope you can turn around the business. I really like the website.

Glenn Nelson
Las Vegas, NV

Just wondering if you will very update your inventory site? The same stuff has been up since 12/4/04 (atleast thte mandolins) or there about.

[J. Mark Lane]

Who are the new owners?

[banjoguy]

BUDDAH YOU ARE ON MY MONDAY TO DO LIST. I WILL FIND YOUR FILE AND CALL YOU PERSONALLY. IF YOU DID NOT PROVIDE A DAY TIME PH # PLEASE SEND AN ADDITIONAL E-MAIL.

WE WILL BE UPDATING OUR INVENTORY LISTS IT IS ONE OF THE MANY CHORES THAT LAY BEFORE US.

THE NEW OWNERS ARE MIKE DAVIS AND PATRIC PEARSON. PATRIC AND I ARE WORKING TOGETHER DURING THE TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP. AS I MENTIONED EARLIER THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE UNRESOLVED ISSUES WILL BE CONTACTED BY EITHER PATRIC OR MYSELF. I'M SURE MOST OF YOU REALIZE THERE ARE MANY THINGS INVOLVED WITH THE TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP, WE HAVE PUT A VERY HIGH PRIORITY ON RESOLVING PAST CUSTOMER ISSUES. REESTABLISHING THE GOOD WILL OF OUR CUSTOMERS IS NOT ONLY THR RIGHT THING TO DO BUT ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE SUCCESS OF FOTW

[JimW]

Are the new owners, or principles involved here in the new organization, in any way affiliated with Mickey Cochran or any previous staff of FOTW?

Jim

[banjoguy]

Jim,
I know that Mickey had made a post in the past regarding his involvement with a new co that is a marketing co, here in Ruidoso. Patric and Mike have other business ventures If you go to the website goruidoso.com you will see that it is website that promotes tourism in our town. Patric and Mike have advertised the Motorcyle rally on the goruidoso.com web page. Mickey does not own the website he is there web site
developer. That is the extent of there relationship. There decision to buy FOTW was a result of advice from a 3rd party business consultant that they used . Mickey will have no future involvement in the policies orany ofthe day to day running of the FOTW. As I stated in my first post he has sold 100% of his interest in the business. He has kindly consented to offer some occasional help with the web site. this will only be technical advice. FOTV has one of the largest and complex sites on the net for accoustic instruments. Web site developemnt is not one of my skills. David Horton
will be moving into that position for us. Most of you know what a great site we have
Mickey built this site over a period of years, we do not want crash it. During our transition we will probably need some technical advice.

I hope this answers your question as I mentioned earlier I have no ownership in FOTW
I haved been hired to manage the business.
Again thanks for you responses and question

Jay Castleberry Mgr FOTW

[J. Mark Lane]

OK, so let me get this straight. FOTW has been purchased by two people who happen to live in the same tiny little town as Mickey Cochran, who have no prior experience in the music business, and who promote tourism and motorcycle shows. On top of that, these two people have a business relationship with Mickey Cochran in their other business, and will continue to have a business relationship with him at FOTW.

And to run this newly acquired business, they've hired you.... You may be a nice guy, but apparently you, too, have no experience in the music business (or in any retail, that you've mentioned). And your own comments suggest you have little or no Internet expertise (thus, I suppose, the need to keep Mickey around...).

Frankly, the entire thing looks rather dubious to me. This business has robbed so many people, I can't even imagine the troubles it was facing.... Did these people buy the stock, or the assets, by the way? Whatever they did, I hope they didn't pay much for good will.

I for one will never do business with FOTW, period. There are too many good, honest, decent music retailers out there, with a long history of treating people right, for me to give any of my money to a company that has a long history of exactly the opposite.

[banjoguy]

J.Mark Lane,
I suppose I could have simply said no to JimW's question.
Only one of the two owners live here in Ruidoso. Patric Pearson grew up here. Mike Davis lives in California. They do not have any ownership of goruidoso.com They are simply paying goruidoso.com to advertise the rally which has been an annual event in Ruidoso as far back as 1980(that was the year I first moved here)& The rally goes back further than that.
From what I understand Mickey is a paid employee of goruidoso.com.
I apologize if I gave the impression that there is some sort of business relationship between the owners and Mickey.
I moved to Ruidoso from Ft Worth,Texas 1980. At that time in my life I was fortunate enough to be a full time musician I was hired by a band here in Ruidoso. I moved away 1983. I moved from Eugene,Oregon Dec. of 1999 back to Ruidoso. At that time my wife and I built our home.

I worked at Bruce Music Company in Ft Worth,Texas while attending UT at Arlington.
I worked both in a retail capacity and gave banjo lessons.
After completing the carriculum at Roberto-Venn School of Luthiery I returned
to Ft Worth, Tx and went to work with Bruce Sconzert at Longhorn Guitars.
Bruce Music Company has since ceased to exist but if you do enough research you will find records of it's beginnings I believe in the 1950's
Bruce Sconzert eventually sold his shop to one of his employees and they subsequently
changed the name to Players Music they are located in Hurst,Texas

Regarding my internet expertise you are correct I am not qualified or capable of maintainig a web site by myself. That is not what I was hired to do, as Mgr my job is to oversee all aspects of the business. It is a foolish person in the business world that does not hire employees that have areas of expertise that he does not possess.

Mickey is not" being kept around " as you imply' David Horton is a graphic artist and musician and has the necessary knowledge to fulfill the position as our webmaster. What I said was that Mickey had offered to give us a hand if needed, Again I apologize if you took that to mean he had any continuing ownership, or vested interest in FOTW

I certainly respect your decision to do business with whom ever you wish. All I can ask is for you keep an eye on the forums. In the days and weeks to come look for the posts from folks that are getting whatever issues they have had with FOTV in the past resolved. I trust that they like you, will be staight forward both in their opinons and accounts of how we are working with them make things right.

And I guess I have to address your comment about our "tiny little town." Yes Ruidoso is a small town in the mountains, Places I have lived include The Dallas/FT. Worth area, Los Angeles,Ca.,Augsburg, Germany to name a few. Ruidoso is a great place to live.
Would your feelings regarding the people involved in the sale of FOTV proximity to each other be different if we all lived in New York City. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to make the point that FOTV has new owners that are trying to resolve the past and move forward.

I do not know the particulars of your dealings with FOTW in the past, but you are more than welcome to call me on our toll free line listed on the web page.
My answer to JimW was candid and to the point and I felt transparency was important,
Thank for you time

Jay Castleberry Mgr FOTW

[ShaneJ]

Jay, it certainly appears you have your work cut out for you in restoring FOTW's reputation. I have had a couple of minor negative experiences with FOTW in the past myself - none I care to bother you or the new owners about now.

I suppose time will tell how successful you will be in developing a good rep. Personally, I expect that you'll be successful - if you continue to respond with prompt, customer service-oriented replies to all the angry and/or skeptical folks who have a lot of stored up frustration with FOTW -- AND actually do what you say you'll do when you say you'll do it and say you can't do what you can't do, that is. In other words, practice good, ol' fashioned honest, ethical business practices. Mickey and his gang of goofballs proved that a fancy website and slick marketing ideas mean squat without honest people backing up the claims and promises.

So far, you appear to understand that, and I'm rooting for you. Good luck! I hope you have thick skin. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[jim simpson]

Jay,
Welcome to the forum and thanks for spending so much time explaining the particulars. I started a new job (not the music industry) 6 months ago with a company who's reputation had been going downhill due to a # of factors. I was recruited by new managment due to my skills and reputation in my field. I still find myself working hard to overcome the issues that folks have with the way things were done prior to my involvement with the company. I do find that my old contacts are giving me and the company a chance to prove ourselves. I do sympathize with you and wish you and your new venture the best. It sounds like everyone will benefit as things turn around for FoTW.
Jim

[Jack Roberts]

Jay, I once took over a business with a lot of problems. After several years of hard work by a staff truly committed to the future, some of our previously unhappy customers became some of our best references. I regret that I left that job sometimes, because there has never been any greater sense of accomplishment in my career. I wish the same to you.

Jack

[banjoguy]

Thanks for the positive comments,
I will stay active in this and other forums. This was the first day off since last Monday. I wanted to let folks know what was going on with FOTW. My responses may not all ways be as quick. As the Mgr my days will not being ending 5:00 pm. FOTW has a large volume of e-mails to be answered also. I also have this thing about spending some time with my wife....Although the fact the she has been married to musician for almost twenty years, makes her a bit more understanding.
I look forward to the challenge.
I do have thick skin, although I would be very happy to exchange it for some thick hair.
Thanks Again

Jay Castleberry Mgr FTW

[Kbone]

Shoot, give Jay some time to straighten the mess of his predecessor, just put your six shooters away and give him a little space to prove himself. If he doesn't, then start shooting. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[banjoguy]

Buddah,
After reading your post. I looked up your name here in the members section.
Wanted to let you know that, Patric (new owner) and I already had your name in the files that we started working on last week.
As I said earlier, I will be contacting you personally.

Jay Castleberry Mgr FOTW

[Buddah]

Thanks Jay, I look forward to hearing from you.

[Keith Erickson]

Jay,

I first off would like to welcome you back to the Southwest. ( even though you've been back for a number of years) #I hope you find your experiences here to be the best. I've been here 10 years and love it.

Ruidoso, Alto, Cloudcroft....

...I can only say good things about these towns.

Casino Apache...

...well I took US$500 dollars from their roulette table last year but that's another story http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

I'm just down the road from you ( about 130 miles away ) in El Paso. #If you know of any BG jams, just let me know.

My fiancées parents have a cabin up in Ruidoso and we get there quite often. #

We've been wanting to check out FOTW for quite some time. #However I was under the impression that y'all are on Mecham Rd. but your address says that you're in Alto.

Did you guys move?

Again Best of Luck to you guys

...it sounds like you have your work cut out for you.

[banjoguy]

Hey Keith,
Thanks for the welcome back. I'm glad you asked about the location of the store. Having read some of the past forums some folks were speculating as to why FOTW had moved at least three times in there history. I do know those moves were always to larger facilities, as a result of their growth. They moved from the Sierra Mall in Ruidoso out to a larger building sometime last year, that is where our store is currently located. In case anyone is wondering Alto is not a town, it is an unincorprated area in the county we are in Lincoln County. This is the county the village of Ruidoso is in. We have a post office and one convieniece store. It is primarily a residential area. My wife and I live in the Alto area. If you look on a detailed map you will see it is adjacent to the Ruidoso Village limits. Here in New Mexico small towns are listed as villages. Next time you escape up to the mountains for a weekend look us up.
Thanks

Jay Castleberry Mgr FOTW

[Keith Erickson]

Jay,

Thank you so much for addressing my post. #May I trouble you again with a couple other questions?

Living in El Paso is kind of a geographical disadvantage when it comes to mandolins. #I purchased my mandolin in Tuscon before I even knew FOTW existed.

Here in El Paso, I have someone who I can bring my 12-String Guild to in the event I have a problem with it. #I can do this without even thinking about it. #However if I would happen to have any issues with my mandolin, I don't think I would use the same person. #He's a great guy and he's a miracle maker when it comes to guitars, but I don't think he has any experience with mandolins.

That being said, in the event that I need my mandolin fixed, does FOTW do repairs?

One more question: How far away is FOTW from the ranger station on the corner of Mecham and Sam Tobias.

Thank you #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mad dawg]

Jay, I wish you and the new management team well in your quest to revamp the business and rebuild the company's reputation. I also hope you keep the the concept of original web site around to some extent, as I always enjoyed the tutorials and Q&A components.

What is your plan and timeline for any changes to the web site? Do you plan to update the inventory on the web site prior to any redesign?

-jim

[Mando Medic]

I would like to add that I know Jay very well. When he was living in the Northwest area of my great state of Oregon, he was well liked and respected.

I hope he does not have to refund money from Mickey's past bad dealings, but issuing credit or matching credit might be a good start.

Jay, someday you will have to tell us all again how it was that your repair shop burned down. Something to do with fireworks set to go off on your banjo neck as I recall? The best of luck to you. I just closed my retail business after 35 years........AAAAhhhhhh! Kenc

[banjoguy]

jim
The web site will remain pretty much intact. We have to change some of the policies that are on the web site, such as the 100% percent trade up policy. The policy is not economically sustainable. As I said in an earlier post, in theory it sounds great in
practice it loses money practically everytime When sale of FOTW is complete we will be increasing our inventory substantially

Thanks
Jay Castleberry Mgr FOTW

[DryBones]

Jay,
Will FOTW be grandfathering in the 100% trade up on past sales or is gone for everybody?

Jason

[banjoguy]

Ken,
Thanks for the kind words. It will not seem like the northwest with out
Cartwright's Music. I sure hope you are going keep doing repair at least.

Ken regarding some of the issues we are resolving now. If the customers are owed
credit, they will receive credit, if they are owed money they will receive money.
I feel this is the right way and the only way to help re-establish FOTW's reputation.
I know from past testimonials and forum postings the vast majority of customers
at FOTW have had positive experiences. I am committed to making things right.

And now about that fire.... This is the sign of a real friend.( one who will embarass you on the net)
Those of you who have been following these posts probably realize that I have been attempting to introduce myself and hopefully establish a little credibility the last few days. I have accepted a position with a company that is changing ownership, and has had some problems in the past. I was aware of these issues during the weeks leading up to my accepting the job. It has been intense to say the least. I thought about maybe asking some friends around the country to post something in my favor.
I chose not to.
Ken's post was a an unexpected surprise at the end of another long day.
Yes, my shop did burn down in Oregon, And yes, at that time I was building a banjo neck that had a device inside the peghead that would shoot a fireball about 20 ft out of the top of the peghead. The peghead was shaped & carved something along the lines of the old Gryphon inlay pattern. I even had Eric at FQMS make me an inlay block for the fretboard that had MONSTERTONE rather than MASTERTONE carved in it.
However the fire was the result of the woodstove not me shooting fireballs. Curly Maple is very expensive for firewood, go with alder or oak
Thanks Ken you brought a needed smile to my face thinking about that banjo.
I'll eventually get around to building it.
See you the next tme I get back up to Oregon
Thanks
Jay

[banjoguy]

Jason,
We will still do trade ins. We will not be able to do 100%, As I mentioned in previous
posts this policy was a major factor contributing to FOTW's financial woes. We are looking at various ways to structure a trade in policy . We will still give a fair value on your trade in. We also will do consignments in some cases.
I realize this might be disapointing to some of you. In the past FOTW has helped a great deal of people in their musical pursuits. Our goal is to continue along these lines. In order to do this FOTW must have sound economic policies in place.
We will keep you posted.
Those of you that had deals in progress prior to the change in ownership will not be affected by this change

Thank you

Jay Castleberry Mgr FOTW

[J. Mark Lane]

Hm, OK. If Ken Cartwright says you're a good guy, that ends the matter for me. You're a good guy. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I hope you can get this beast under control, Jay. I wish you luck.

Mark

[banjoguy]

J Mark Lane,

Thanks. Who knows, maybe someday we might do business together.
But for now, I'll just say thanks again, for wishing me luck.

Jay Castleberry Mgr FOTW

[steve V. johnson]

Hi Jay,

It's great to see you here, and thanks for your openness and willingness to show up, even with a target on your chest! <GGG> and provide serious info. Well done!

You write, re: M.Cochran: "He has kindly consented to offer some occasional help with the web site. this will only be technical advice."

Dude, the website ain't all that great... <GG> It's not that easy to get around, and there's way too much text on some pages.
Perhaps you'd be better off not accepting Mickey's "help" at all... ?

On a positive note, the audio and video samples of the instruments are wonderful, it's been great to consult them, and I hope you can keep that as a feature of your new business. Also, if you will deal at all in used/vintage instruments, I hope that your online presentations of them can be kept current and accurate. I hope that you will be able to trade in used instruments, and that it may be a good market for you.

I've had no dealings at all with FOTW, but I have watched as friends have had difficulties (no fraud, just lies and delays) and disappointments.

Best wishes in your new endeavor!

stv

[J. Mark Lane]

I agree that the website has never been all that good. The photography has been pretty good, though.

The most obnoxious thing about it, imo, has been the consistent misrepresentation of inventory. Once you learn how to "read" the "inventory" list, you *might* avoid being deceived...some of the time. But a large amount, if not the vast majority, of instruments listed were not in stock, had been sold, were never in stock at all, or were just generic ads for instruments that could be ordered...assuming you were fool enough to give them any of your money.

That practice had better be corrected if you expect to have any credibility at all.

[Alex of the North]

Speaking as a web developer, the FOTW website is a disaster. It looks awful, pages are far too graphically intensive (the sliced, overly compressed jpegs have got to go), and the navigation is perhaps the worst I have ever seen. It basically looks like a mid 90's site that's gone completely wild. You can't find anything. Some of the content may be worth preserving, but you'd be much better off embracing some kind of database-driven site instead of all of that static html. #I don't think much of Elderly's site from a design standpoint, but functionally speaking, that's what you should shoot for.

You need to weed out that site and put in some serious structure. Sorry to chime in and be so critical, but that site needs a serious redesign.

[Tom Smart]

In my humble opinion, the web site also has a lot of stupid advice, and in at least one place Mr. Cochran takes a completely uninformed and uncalled-for potshot at a very good builder whose work and ideas he obviously knows nothing about.

I think you would have a better chance at success if you completely dump Mickey Cochran. To a lot of people around here, he's poison.

[J. Mark Lane]

There's also a lot of stuff on there that is probably in violation of the copyright laws. For example, way back before I knew diddly from squat about them, I emailed Mickey some questions. He responded, and then put both my email and his response up on his website. I never said anything about it, because it just didn't amount to much. But there's a ton of material that may very well be in the same category. I'd be careful with that kind of thing.

[mpeknox]

Look here (http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/suckframe.htm) for what NOT to do with your website.

[Keith Erickson]

Folks,

Back to the topic at hand...

...In defense of Jay, what else would you like for him to do? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

I'm surprised from all of the pot shots that he has taken on this thread that he hasn't inquired if Calton also makes bullet proof vests.

I was not aware of all of the problems until I started to read through the various posts. #I can understand those people who are ticked off. #Nobody likes to get ripped off.

Jay has come to this board to try to make things right where the previous folks screwed up. #Many of you here are throwing excrement at him when he is not the problem but part of the solution.

I have never done business with FOTW before, however because Jay was open with us from the very beginning, I'm willing to give him a shot as my "one-stop" source for all things mandolin.

OKay if you choose not to do business with FOTW, we heard you say it the first 972 times. #You don't need to repeat yourself again.

Let the rest of us make that decision. #I for one plan to be in Ruidoso sometime this month and I'm looking forward to meeting you Jay.

I for one are wishing you all the best of success.

Cheers # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[chuksdad]

Banjoguy, I am another one of those who was taken by the FOTW bunch. I've emailed the details to you and will look for your response. You've obviously got an uphill battle on your hands and it's going to take a lot to win back lost business. Good Luck and I hope to hear from you soon.

[Stephen Perry]

I've done a lot of business with FOTW as a customer and a supplier. There's been a bit of confusion at times, but things have always worked out just fine. About what I would have expected for a growing business. The only serious problems I had involved Mr. James, who called here unprompted one day to threaten me personally, and an unpaid, invoice, which was eventually paid. Odd as it seems, I would probably find rebuilding FOTW to be a good deal of fun. Set it up with more modern business systems and so on. See what we could streamline. I suspect once over the initial hump that Jay will have a good time managing the place. It will no doubt take a good deal of time to get everything in place and to resolve left over problems. That's generally the situation in transfers of ownership.

I see that FOTW, Inc. records at the secretary of state still show the Cochrans as the officers. Also show the corporate status as "in the process of revocation." I anticipate this listing being changed eventually. I don't know how long the SOS takes to update things.

[J. Mark Lane]

Yeah, Steve, I had asked earlier whether it was an asset or a stock deal. #Never saw an answer to that. #Not that I expected one. #(For the non-lawyers...if it was an asset deal, the status of the old corporation wouldn't much matter...at least for the issues raised by Steve.)

Oh, and Keith, I think you may be reading some of these posts as "pot shots" when they may actually be intended to be helpfup.

[Tatoosh]

Oh boy, Jay. You bit off a large chaw here. I'd estimate that you'll be working 7 days a week, 100+ hours a week for a long, long time to rescue this puppy. Hope you have stamina.

You'll get a lot of self satisfaction if you can pull it off. Nothing worthwhile is easy. Good luck!

[Keith Erickson]

Oh, and Keith, I think you may be reading some of these posts as "pot shots" when they may actually be intended to be helpfup.
J Mark, You have been slighted wrongly by the Mickey and gang. I'm not playing that down either. However I think that Jay offered to assist any wrongs from the past.

He is just asking for the chance to make FOTW better.

Thanks,

[Keith Erickson]

Just to add my two cents on this.

I'm in the outsourcing industry and my job is to go around to other peoples messes and clean up the S%!+ that previous department managers caused.

I work in both Texas and Mexico and can tell you horror story after horror story about screwed up operations and horrible manager/labor strains due to not running the business correctly.

With that being said...

The thing that makes me the most successful is actually going to the affected client to say "Hey look this is what has happened and this is what I am going to do to fix this".

Yes the throw arrows, flame throwers and atomic bombs at first kind of get you down. #In the end, when I fix the problem all of that stuff goes away.

Mark, #I don't know how taking pot shots is going to help Jay but all I know is that I would put my money on him any day.

Just give him a chance.

[Frank Russell]

Wow. I find it helpful to add the smiley icon when I insult someone's home state, or an entire country, so people will know I'm just kidding. That's just me. Frank

[Frank Russell]

Cover your bases, Mark. You left out the Mexicans. I myself happen to have plenty of Texans and Mexicans in my family, and more than a few lawyers, although we don't acknowledge them. Insert smiley icon here. And we all have a healthy sense of humor. The new manager of FOTW seems to be making an honest effort to make things right, I think the other posters were right about giving the guy a break. I got burned by them, they eventually made it right, and I will keep my eye on their future developments. If they seem like they are getting it together, I'll give them another shot. Life is too short, and mandolin resources too few where I live for knee-jerk reactions and vows to "never again." Do what makes you happy, and let's try to keep the Cafe civil and positive. Frank

[delsbrother]

So... For all of us who specifically bought from FothW in the past because of their "500% Guarantee" - all of those benefits are now gone with the old owners? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate not having to battle with Mickey, et. al., and I still have possession of the #mandolin, so I'm not "out" anything. I had already decided any chance of using these services were long gone.. But it sure makes me look at "lifetime" customer service claims differently. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Stephen Perry]

While the majority of the 100% things seem to be policies that apply now and can be changed for the future, one could reasonably interpret the "100% warranty" to be part of the deal, fixed at the time the instrument is sold, and not subject to unilateral recission later. #On the other hand, the lifetime warranty only covers FOTW repairs of manufacturers defects. #As determined by FOTW. #FOTW only promises to "do its best to repair the defect or damage. For instance, if a crack develops, FOTW will repair the crack with cleats or filler to prevent its further separation." This isn't a particularly appealing description of repair.

I anticipate that Jay et al. will spend a good deal of time hashing out policies, warranties, and the like. #I anticipate them looking very much like everyone elses. #I think we all look at the other folks' policies to decide what's about average in the business. Being consistent is important. Being fair is important. Often a hard line to draw. Something arrives back from a client without notification, or with a bit of wear, or some scratches. What's fair to do?? What's a fair trade up policy? What's fair notice of policies? Difficult. Should be fun to see what FOTW comes up with.

[ironscot]

I don't have time to read through this whole thread now, but I will be calling the new FOTW to find out where I'm at with them tomorrow. While I'm better off than Buddah, according to his post,The old crew still owes me seven hundred bucks plus or minus a couple. Lucky for them I haven't been able to pull away from here due to work duty schedules. I've spoken to every single man jack among em for the last two years and got nuthin but a run around. I actually went direct to the builder of my mando, (the folks at Breedlove really are cool) and discovered that James, Nathan and Trad were all lying out their rears.

I can't think of any group of folks who need a trip out behind the barn more.

I hope you bought them out at firesale prices and they have to leave Ruidoso wearin nuthin but tar and feathers. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[banjoguy]

As I mentioned a few days ago, prior to accepting the position as Mgr of FOTW I never participated in this forum or others. Someone please let me know that I am not the only one that has typed in a lengthy post, only to realize you are not logged in. So you log in, only to have you post erased. Seems there are quite a few webmasters out there posting ideas to me. Any ideas on how to enable myself or others how to not to lose our posts in the event we don't log in before we start typing. So much for my personal inadequacies. ( I have more by the way)

I appreciate the amount of feedback and discussion directed to me and FOTW. I have taken no offense to anything that has been posted. Any skepticsm or anger that is being posted is a result of actions others before me have taken, not myself. I stated in earlier posts that I'm committed to resolving those issues. You will be all be able to judge for yourselves if I am successful in my goal. If I am only to be given a few days or a couple of weeks to restore FOTW's image, resolve past customer complaints, restock our inventory, update every aspect of the website, answer backlogged e-mails, keep in touch with you all, sell some instruments, etc I'm sure there's a couple of things I left out...oh yeah sleep. then I'm probably not gonna make it.
That was not a "WOE IS ME" statement. ( just another weak attempt at humor.)

The comments are all helpful. Ihe website does need to be updated, as well as simplified in some areas. There are lots of us who have been playing for a long time. and are quite knowledgable regarding instruments, etc. Information that might seem mundane to us, is often new and exciting to those just discovering accoustic music. I have taught banjo for quite a few years. I have always enjoyed sharing the knowledge that I have acquired about music, instruments, and other musicians. Possibly that has kept me grounded regarding the importance of basic information about info that seems mundane to some. I agree some of the info on the site will archived but still accessible.

I apologize for not addressing all the posts, I am reading them though, they are all helpful. I hope this dialgue will continue. In the last week and half I have received calls concerning past customer issues, well wishes from many people regarding the change, and establishing relationships from our suppliers & vendors. It has been extremely busy and productive and tiring.

I will be absent from this forum until at least next Tuesday, I will not be at FOTW either. I have some personal family matters to attend to. I am announcing this so that those I am working with, will not think they are getting a runaround if they attempt to call me at FOTW.

I think you can all tell by the times of my postings that sleep is somewhat of a premium these days. I believe I'll take advantage of what's left of the dark.
I gotta admit that bullet proof vest from Calton idea is intriguing.
Thanks

Jay Castleberry Mgr FOTW

[banjoguy]

ironscot
give me untill at least 10:00 mt time in order for me to find your records.
Thanks

Jay Castleberry

[ironscot]

Jay,

I've given them other yahoos alot longer than that. If you are a stand up guy like you seem to be, I'm willing to be patient for much longer. I know it must seem like you have taken the weight of the world on at times, so I'm not even gonna start baggin on you. It's those other no good yahoos that need a sound thrashin.

It's the hope of resolution that brings my spirit up. I'm content to contemplate the fuzz in my navel fer a while til you get your feet in under you.

If you can get James into my clasp, we'll call it even. ### http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[banjoguy]

I gotta get some sleep...
I can't help you in the area of frontier justice.
looking forward to your call.

Jay Castleberry Mgr FOTW

[Jeff Hildreth]

So as I read this...

The new ( actually old business associates of Cochran) are the new owners.. but the owners or record are still the Cochrans, but they had and don;t have anything to do with Cochran other than Cochran is still around... got it...

2 previous employees are still there.. swell

Next that.. some of you will be disappointed about the trade in policy and ...that was a major part of FOTW's problems..
read that the new guys won't honor the old policies nor cover the losses and monies owed in spite of the fact the new owners assumed the companies liabilities as well as assests (double talk)... got it

So we have an absentee owner in Davis Calif that was a business cronie of Mickey Cochran..
We have a local guy who also was a business associate of Mickey Cochran as a "new" owner...
Neither of whom has a music or busness background

and a "nice guy" banjo player who burned his shop down with no previous (or very limited) business management experience...as the new manager.

Mickey Cochran isn't involved but he is still around.

And in spite of #stating #in writing that they will assume the liabilities.. it appears they are already worming out of this...

OK.. my opinion is all the facts aren't there.. it appears #
the new crew is wheedling, overly optomistic or just plain dumb. : )


http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35649

Like to be a fly on the wall at one of there (their) business meetings

I wish you luck

JJH

[Jason Kessler]

A Know-Nuthin' weighing in, perhaps, but:

It seems to me that if a New Owner takes over an established business, keeps that business's name, and wants to engender trust in the community it seems to have alienated, it would behoove the New Owner to honor the promises of the Old Owner, especially as the New Owner has assumed the Old Owner's liabilities as per legal definition. If customers had been promised free upgrades, it would seem to me that those promises should be honored, for at LEAST one upgrade transaction.

Would it be costly to do so? Yup. But I would see this as part of the start-up costs.

I would also interpret this honoring of promises as a sign that the business in question had truly broken with the dishonor of its past, and was bending over backwards to re-embrace its rightfully-angered constituency.

Without this, what have we? So someone has bought the name, inventory, and web site of another business. They're not trading on the good name and good will of the past; they're a New Business, as untried and with as little track record as anyone else who cares to set up shop and call themselves our friends.

FOTW: make good. Then we'll listen.

One man's opinion...

[Joe Singleton]

A most interesting few pages........... What's the saying ? any pub is good pub? Seems the best thing to do would be to stop responding to the whole mess and forgetaboutit. Yes, I have had minor dealings with the "old" crew and I got what I paid for minus some condition issues, but if I were starting a brand new business I would be giddy at this ammount of attention by some of the worlds most informed mando players/buyers of stuff. How bout an end to the thread as free ads and see if the "new" crew can stand alone on merit rather than internet buzz. (and here is the emoticon for cover http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif -Joe

[Jeff Hildreth]

Just wanted to rehash one point

In a buy-sell... it is not a given that the "new" owners assume the debts and liabilities.. that is a negotiable issue.

and contrary to the opening statement of this thread...you don't
"buy liabilities and debts"... they are negotiated and subtracted from the purchase price... you don't buy negative sums....that is absurd..

Example : If Tiddly Wink Inc is worth $100,000 in inventory and so called goodwill, but they owe creditors $50,000 you don't pay $100k
unless the sellers agree to pay the indebtedness.
Normally, the $50K would be subtracted from the $100K if the buyers assume the liabilities and debts; in this case $50K

( then they change their policies and screw the creditors/customers
out of what they agreed to do which was to assume the liabilities)

To sum up...
not all buy/sells include an assumption of debts and liabilities
You don't pay for the debts and liabilities but negotiate them

Seems the well meaning new manager doesn't understand this. Good luck considering the "some of you will be disappointed" message.

Rhetorical question for the new manager

Define the term "service level"
Define "fill rate"
Define "costs"
Define "expenses"
Define "fixed expenses"
Define "semi-fixed" expenses
Define gross sales
Define Gross profit
Define "net profit"
Define the term "turn"
Expound on "days supply"
How do you calculate a price for a 40% gross profit from a cost figure
What %age of your gross profit is acceptable "goodwill"
Define or explain the term "pricing matrix"
Define lease hold improvement
Define "shrinkage"
What is the difference between a warranty and a guarantee
Define "out of trust"
Approximately how much money would you need to operate a start up business...( not in actual dollars)


No fair looking all this up...answer as best you can.. these are basic
questions someone in business or managing a business could answer

Oh and BTW, did Cochran sign a non compete agreement http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Best of luck

[mad dawg]

Jay is reaching out
He's aware of ugly past
Making new future

[Jeff Hildreth]

"Jay is reaching out
He's aware of ugly past
Making new future"

All hail "J"

that being the case.. satisfy all debts and "liabilities" including those duped/screwed on trade - ins... without making new policy that excludes those liabilities and debts assumed by the "new" team (according to Jay's post.) Wheedling out of those obligations is not
what is reasonable or expected...

Meeting those obligations the honorable thing to do.. If not .. this is simply a reincarnation FOTW...

All hail "J"

[Keith Erickson]

Could someone explain to be how the trade up policy would work?

Are you implying that if I went to FOTW before and bought a US$100 dollar mandolin and then I could then trade it up for a US$200 dollar mandolin?

Hey great for me, but the vendor get's socked.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Thank you for the clarification.

[mad dawg]

"Jay is reaching out
He's aware of ugly past
Making new future"

All hail "J"

that being the case.. satisfy all debts and "liabilities" including those duped/screwed on trade - ins... #without making new policy that excludes those liabilities and debts assumed by the "new" team (according to Jay's post.) #Wheedling out of those obligations is not
what is reasonable or expected...

Meeting those obligations the honorable thing to do.. If not .. this is simply a reincarnation FOTW...

All hail "J"
That would have been the honorable thing to do for the old owners, but they appear to have routinely ignored their customer committments as a way of business, and seem to have built up several years worth of broken promises and liabilities. Jay needs to come up with a sustainable business plan, and I suspect that providing 100% compensation to a very large backlog of customers screwed-over by the previous owners, is a fast-track financial ruin.

The new team instead could have renamed the business, and bailed 100% on the old regime's committments, but they appear to be trying to do the honorable thing by reaching out to customers previously screwed, I assume with the goal of reaching some sort of compromise solution. I am pretty sure Jay posted here because he is proud of the fact they they are trying to do the right thing, and perhaps as well to test the waters in the mandolin commutity on this approach. (If the latter, I am thinking that they are finding the water is still a little on the uncomfortable side of hot http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif )

[Jeff Hildreth]

My point being that Jay said that the new folks "bought" ( which is incorrect see my previous posts) the debts and liabilities. This means they assumed the obligations of the old regime including honoring policies which included the trade up policy differentials.

In a later post Jay said "some will be disappointed" in that they are changing this policy that led to their demise. #Well dissapointing folks by #changing the policy does't negate the legal responsibility of the former owners and is contradictory to what Jay said about assuming the debts and liabilities and therefore is disingenuous if not out right Bull S--- . Changing the rules doesn't absolve Mickey et al from those
monies or goods owed. And anyone who bought the business can't shirk that responsibity with a casual post that is clumsy and transparent.

It may have been a poor policy for them , but it worked for Buffalo Bros. #FOTW was not done in by that policy alone, they were done in by their incompetence and lack of business ethics in my opinion (IMNSHO) That policy alone and by itself would have been a gnats ####
in a pile of pepper. #It is a lame and feeble excuse.. The policy did us in.. it wasn't us.. it was the policy. Right

So ... Jay and "new crew" #.. since you bought this mess and want to turn it around ( which IMNSHO can not be done.. as the new folks appear to be as unqualified as the "former" but still hanging around regime) the first thing you need to do is honor those debts and liabilities you "bought" (assumed) #and not slide in a clever statement that you hope will massage the great unwashed masses. You are busted already unless you really are going to do the honorable thing.


So Jay... tell me I misread #or misunderstood these two seemingly opposed postings


...Paraphrased..

we accepted the debts and obligations

the policies did FOTW in so were changing the policy so we won't honor our debts and liabilities

Here's my guess..

FOTW will throw a bone to a few folks.. particularly where they owe product.. they will pay off their suppliers as you can't do business without the goods..

They will wheedle out of paying those few who got screwed in the trade up policy because
A, there were few of them
B, It was #stupid policy
C. those few disenchanted folks weren't really out any money
D. They won't affect the business if they go away

Bad form if this happens.. and yes it will make a difference because it makes the new crew no better than the former crew..

Oh so you will give them credit for the difference #against full retail price on any future purchases.. or we will negotiaite and split the owed sum or any other such manouevering.. That is speculatiuon,, but still; not the same as stepping to the plate and accepting the debts and obligations.

And as to the... well gee, #they could have simply dropped the name and come back and not lived up to those debts and liabilities and screwed everyone

so what is the difference or so honorable about keeping the name and still not living up to the acceptance of debts and liabilities..same #### new package

I don't know if this was #a corporation.. but if it was.. the corporation is still responsible for its actions #no matter who has it, and no matter if the policies ( not the management or ownership) were detrimental to the operation... ( see previous statements above)

Good luck Jay... analyze your motives, your involvement, your responsibilities,your experience, your authority and what this may do to you and your reputation. #Start by explaining exactly what you mean by your seemingly opposing comments. Since you imply you are in charge...
do you have a written job description??? Are you a signatory at the bank.. can you sign PO's.. can you cut checks without approval from the principals ?? no need to answer..

So #how many of you have been contacted by FOTW, and what have they said ?? #hmmmmm


jjh

[Keith Erickson]

Hi Jeff,

I'm just wondering...

...it sounds like you were ripped off my the previous regime and have a legitimate gripe about it.

I believe that Jay posted earlier that if you have money or credit that is owed to you that he would work to resolve the issue.

What did Jay say when you called him? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

I'm sure if you have any issue(s), Jay is willing to work to resolve those.

Best regards,

[Jeff Hildreth]

I have not done business with them and have no axe to grind
If I did I would have handled my problems long ago and they would not have been posted here...I believe in the court system.


But I have followed this FOTW for a couple years and seen the many posts and disappointments in their transactions.
Do you realize the volume of material posted here and elsewhere about FOTW.. on a par with Gibson...

I have a business background and a mando and musical instrument background, therefore this is of interest

Just trying to make sure that any points of misunderstanding are
clearly explained.. and any posturing is exposed for what it is

I abhor Bull ---- #and what I see so far is more of same
I would like to see FOTW in either its former guise or in its reincarnation
really do the right thing...ie live up to its debts and obligations..

I am seeing double talk #and new-speak so far...

I don't have "issues", #but I offer tissues..

I wish Jay well ... but I see nothing new here.. this "new deal" #with the "new" owners has been in the works for a long time..it's old news


What you don't know is that I had private conversations with the previous regime to get them to understand their position and what their public posts were doing ...I got them to shut up.. but not put up...

If you would prefer I not post my observations... just give me the word


jjh

[Keith Erickson]

If you would prefer I not post my observations..just give me the word

jjh
Jeff,

I for one am not offended by your posts. I was just trying to understand your seething hatred for FOTW.

As Jay posted, he is looking forward to fixing past customer problems and come to a resolution. I'm sure that the folks dealing with Jay will post their successes or lack there of.

[Jeff Hildreth]

When you have nothing intelligent or worthwhile to contribute yourself, kill the messenger... very telling...and no you don't get it..

No vitriol or seething hatred...that is borne of personal relationships.. I don't have one..just exposing BS for what it is...

I find this amusing...Almost as amusing as Gibson and all their antics...

Go back #to the archives here and at Banjo Hangout and elsewhere in FOTW threads....weigh all that and compare it with my posts..miniscule... my posts are recent

Why some are excusing FOTW in its old or new emperors clothing is beyond me..

So I'll go back to lurk mode and watch like a fat happy little Buddah

good luck to you all

jjh

[Keith Erickson]

Jeff,

I still don't get the seething hatred.

If you were watching FOTW for the past couple of years, why didn't you take your chance and purchase FOTW when it was up for sale.

With your "business" background and music background, you would have taken this business to outer space and still delivered on the 100% trade up policy.

Gosh, maybe they should have hired you instead. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[J. Mark Lane]

There is no "seething hatred" or "vitriol" in Jeff's posts. They have been entirely logical, rational and fact based. They show the reflections of a person who is educated in business management, and who sees through the superficial to the substance. I agree with basically everything he said. And I, too, never did business with them. I had better sense than that.

I've never met Jeff. I just dislike seeing a guy abused unfairly. And I, too, am amazed at how quickly people are ready to accept and do business with an enterprise that has an essentially criminal history, based on what appear to be not very impressive regime changes.

And to be clear, this is not intended as a personal attack on Jay. Arguably, to quote Mr. Zimmerman, he's only a pawn in their game. I wished him luck, and I still do. But let's keep our eyes open, folks, and not rush to forget the past.

[Keith Erickson]

I've never met Jeff. #I just dislike seeing a guy abused unfairly.

I don't think I was too difficult with Jeff.


And I, too, am amazed at how quickly people are ready to accept and do business with an enterprise that has an essentially criminal history, based on what appear to be not very impressive regime changes.

I was not aware of any legal problems that FOTW or it's previous owners were involved in.

When were the indictments handed out?
What were the sentences that were handed down by the judge?

I don't remember reading anything about FOTW in the local media and#Ruidoso, New Mexico is somewhat local.

Please clarify.

Thank you,

[JimW]

I can't help but feel this is just a superficial ploy by Mickey Cochran to revitalize his business. I just have a strange feeling about this whole thing. First, this new manager starts showing up on forums spreading the word about FOTW under new ownership, and by his own admission, this is a person that has never posted on forums before, but all of a sudden, he starts posting on the couple forums where FOTW's reputation is well known. I just don't think this is a coincidence.

If it looks like ####, smells like #### and feels like ####, I don't have to taste it to know what it is.

Jim Watts

[Keith Erickson]

I don't remember reading anything about FOTW in the local media and Ruidoso, New Mexico is somewhat local.

Hi Mark,

I just did a google search for Folk of the Wood in Ruidoso, New Mexico. I also added the words criminal history,legal troubles and lawsuits.

I found nothing. Please direct me to where I can find this information so I can look and read on the criminal history of FOTW.

Much Oblidged,

[jamman]

Jeff,

All your questions are legit, but I am curious as to what has led you to believe this resurrection is BS? You seem to have drawn assumptions from Jays postings that may or may not be correct, yet you seem to be convinced it is how you say it is.

Your vocabulary test should not be not directed to Jay as well. I'm the marketing director for a successful retail chain, and if we asked our store managers to define the business terms you presented to Jay, the results would not be pretty. Those questions are issues that ownership tackles.

All I'm attempting to say is before you convict Jay of being an accomplice to a shady operation, give him a chance to answer your worthy questions.

[J. Mark Lane]

Keith,

If I actually thought you were trying to learn something, I *might* take the trouble to explain to you the meaning of the words I used. But since I do not think so, I'll pass. Suffice it to say, you do not understand what I said.

Mark

[DryBones]

I believe there is a misunderstanding on the FOTW website trade up policy. They did have a %100 trade up policy for new items purchased through them BUT they also had a "trade in" policy on used items. That is where all the fair market value and consignment type talk came from. I am not defending or taking sides but just clarifying for everyone. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Keith Erickson]

Keith,

If I actually thought you were trying to learn something, I *might* take the trouble to explain to you the meaning of the words I used. #But since I do not think so, I'll pass. #Suffice it to say, you do not understand what I said. #

Mark
Hey there Mark,

I'm just reading what your post is.

But then again it depends on what the definition of is really is. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Jaded]

Whole thing smells a bit fishy to me. Looking at the website, it still looks an aweful lot like the old front man is still rather involved and there is no annoucement on the front page about this change in ownership. I mean no matter how incompetant, websites are not that hard to change.

I would be inclined to beleive that the new owners are friends/associates of the old and this "change" is an attempt to a) re-establish credibility and garner attention to a fading business and b) get out of their old trade up policy.

But that's just me. If I'm wrong, I wish ya'll the best of luck, but I think i'd take Mickey's picture off the website and change the name of the business.

For the record, I have never purchased anything from FOTW and it would take a lot more than what i've seen here to convince me to start.

[Keith Erickson]

Jaded,

Anything is possible. And who knows? We could all be snowed. However I'm willing to bet that if there is any funny business, the Lincoln County Sheriffs Office will be called in to investigate.

From the posts I've been reading it seems that there are some people who have been ripped off. However there have been postings from people who are complaining about FOTW and FOTW didn't do a single wrong thing to them.

I'm curious to hear from the people who were wronged by FOTW. I want to hear how FOTW settled their disputes.

That being said, this will be my last post on this subject. I plan to finish practicing the songs that I need to learn my tomorrow morning at 8:30 am.

Finished with this thread...

[Jaded]

Re the sheriff's office...one would hope so, but having been a former employee of a guy who engaged in some very shadey business practices, got run out of two states before coming to NC and had many, many complaints by customers and former employees about his illegal activites...it can take a long, long time for the law to catch up and even when it does the folks that got ripped off don't usually get their money back.

I hope the ownership change here is legit and that fotw will make good on it's promises of making up to customers wronged in the past and if they do, I applaud them.

However, i'm just saying caveat emptor.

[DryBones]

from Jay's earlier posts I believe it was mentioned that the website will be changed,not that it has been changed. that website looks the same now as it was 2 weeks ago. I don't think with all that is going on at FOTW that the website is a high priority at this point...give it time folks...nothing changes overnight.Also, if FOTW is the only website you are visiting you are definitely missing out on other great sites and stuff...anybody got suggestions?

[Jason Kessler]

Welp, this has all gotten pretty personal pretty quickly...

Folks: what do we KNOW? I'm not asking what we surmise or guess, and I'm not asking what our backgrounds in these matters are. What do we KNOW?

We know nothing.

So why the rushes to judgement? Let's just sit back and see what happens. FOTW can either put up or shut up; I'll give 'em a chance to put up. And if they don't, I'll chime in and help shut 'em up. No need to jump the gun.

WE'RE all on the same side, no?

[JEStanek]

I'm going through some "stuff" with FOTW right now myself. From my last call there, the transfer hasn't fully taken place. It is a big website full of Mickey pictures. I wouldn't imagine that would be first up on their to-do list. I'm waiting, watching... but lets see what happens. I'm only out a KM140S. I will report when this "minor issue" is resolved.

Jamie

[mad dawg]

I'm all for giving this thread a break and seeing how successful Jay is in working out solutions with Jamie, Jim W, Buddah, chucksdad, J.Mark, ironscot, and others who have actually suffered damages by the old team.

- Jim out

[latentaudio]

Lots of speculation going on here. #Let's hear from the folks who have hand problems.

Any resolutions to report?

[Joe Singleton]

# http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Artic Cutie]

Hello All,
I just recently had a bad experience with the previous owners of FOTW last month. I bought a NEW Hyalite by Weber and when I received the mandolin from FOTW I soon discovered that my 'new' mandolin was played quite a bit. The back had two significant belt buckle scratches and it also looked like it was strummed quite heavily. I was crushed. I called FOTW the very next morning and they were not helpful. Next I spoke with Paula at Weber and she was great. She contacted FOTW and the next day a man by the name of Patric called announcing he was the new co-owner. He assured me that my situation would be handled quickly and efficiently so that I would be satified. The next day JAY called me and he is as good of a business man as they come. He offered to replace my instrument with a new one. Gave me free 2 day shipping also. He is a nice guy and for any one who thinks different, then pick up the telephone and give him a call. You will soon learn that he has integrity and wants to restore FOTW's. We need people like this...give them a break. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Ken Sager]

Hello All,
I just recently had a bad experience with the previous owners of FOTW last month. #I bought a NEW Hyalite by Weber and when I received the mandolin from FOTW I soon discovered that my 'new' mandolin was played quite a bit. #The back had two significant belt buckle scratches and it also looked like it was strummed quite heavily. #I was crushed. #I called FOTW the very next morning and they were not helpful. #Next I spoke with Paula at Weber and she was great. #She contacted FOTW and the next day a man by the name of Patric called announcing he was the new co-owner. #He assured me that my situation would be handled quickly and efficiently so that I would be satified. #The next day JAY called me and he is as good of a business man as they come. #He offered to replace my instrument with a new one. #Gave me free 2 day shipping also. #He is a nice guy and for any one who thinks different, then pick up the telephone and give him a call. #You will soon learn that he has integrity and wants to restore FOTW's. #We need people like this...give them a break. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
That's a mouthful for a first post by someone who registered on this message board today...

Do I sound sceptical? I have no interest in this, but I do find it interesting reading...

[mandoJeremy]

I agree Ken and I think I actually recall this same Weber story some time ago with the person calling Paula and she handled the situation. #But, I remember it being under a different user name....hmmm. #I also agree with JimW and J. Mark on this one also. #Very suspicious but it doesn't really concern me. #I have just been sitting back and reading the thread. #I still would NEVER give my business to FOTW and that will not change regardless of how many people post their positive experience! #I suspect Mickey is still somewhere involved in this and after threatening this board with his "legal action" he just doesn't have the guts to come back and he "sells" some of his company and wants the reputation back. #Of course all of this is my opinion and pessimistic attitude.

[Ken Sager]

Oh yeah, and how long has Jay been the manager? He posted the news here on Aug 6, Artic Cutie's issue happened last month?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Artic Cutie]

Hello All,

I totally don't blame any of you being that I am new to this website. The only thing I can say is that is you like I can post a photograph with the UPS shipping right next to it.

Please do not attack me. I am new to this website and I enjoy the information so far. But I can easily go somewhere else and everyone can be skeptical among eachother.

Cheers...Cindy

[JEStanek]

Cindy is right, guys. You're free to be skeptical but lets not have collateral damage with this thread to a new member. Let some other people who have posted a while that you know reply with how their issues were/weren't resolved satisfactorally before we drop the napalm.

Jamie

[Ken Sager]

You're right.

Cindy, I apologize. I didn't mean it as a personal attack at all. I'll play nice, I promise.

Sincerely,
Ken

[mandoJeremy]

I definitely didn't mean it as a personal attack either Cindy and I apologize if you took it that way. I still remember this same story posted involving FOTW, Weber, and Paula on another FOTW thread here before though.

[bsimmers]

Jay,
I was barely familiar with FOTW until I read this monster of a thread.
My 2 cents:
1) Change the name of the company
2) Completely destroy the website, and start over.
3) Have no connection with the previous idiots, directly or indirectly.
4) Do a press release announcing all of the above
5) Discontinue the PUBLIC attention to these legitimate issues of previous dissatisfied customers. Announce that you'll deal with them one on one, and meet their needs. You can't come out ahead by constantly addressing the same stuff in a public forum. Quite the contrary.
Good Luck!

[J. Mark Lane]

Jay,
I was barely familiar with FOTW until I read this monster of a thread.
My 2 cents:
1) Change the name of the company
2) Completely destroy the website, and start over.
3) Have no connection with the previous idiots, directly or indirectly.
4) Do a press release announcing all of the above
5) Discontinue the PUBLIC attention to these legitimate issues of previous dissatisfied customers. Announce that you'll deal with them one on one, and meet their needs. You can't come out ahead by constantly addressing the same stuff in a public forum. Quite the contrary.
Good Luck!
Now THAT is good advice. The fact that none of this was done in the first place is partly want contributes to the suspicion and skepticism.

[luckylarue]

My $.02 is: Why bother? There are plenty of awesome retailers to choose from - Elderly, Greg Boyd, etc. Why even take a chance if there is any grey area as to involvement from previous owners/employees? Why would you keep the name of a business associated w/ such a soiled and tainted past?

Even United Fruit Co. changed their name to Del Monte to distance themselves from the repression and atrocities in Guatemala.

[steve V. johnson]

I have to say that I like bsimmers' advice, there.

'Course... that's cuz I thought FOTW was kind of too mythic a name anyway... <GGG>

Clean HOUSE, Jay!!

stv

[Artic Cutie]

Thanks guys--I apprecite your welcoming.

[jasona]

I definitely didn't mean it as a personal attack either Cindy and I apologize if you took it that way. I still remember this same story posted involving FOTW, Weber, and Paula on another FOTW thread here before though.

Actually, Jeremy and others, the previous story was about a Weber with the tonebars that had come loose from the underside of the soundplate.

As for the site not having been changed--as I recall the sale is not finalized yet.

I think its time for all to sit back and watch what happens over there.

(Welcome Cindy)

[mandoJeremy]

Thanks for straightening that out for me. I couldn't remember the details, I just recalled the Weber and FOTW thing with Paula helping out. I am definitely going to just sit back and watch even though I still don't trust anything that has the FOTW name attached to it.

[mando_pete]

I'm sorry to say that my first "good" mando ( a Morgan Monroe MMS-5 ) was bought from FOTW. I bought it for approximately $800. The trade up policy at the time was as follows...

Send mandolin back and apply $800 (purchase price) towards a better mandolin at any time. They also told me the mandolin would be sent "set up". #The mandolin was shipped with no strings and the bridge in the case. As a newbie, I set up the mandolin and took it to a music shop to help me out. They did an okay job. A year later the thing wouldn't tune up right so I called FOTW and James told me I needed brand new $150 tuners. Instead, I brought it to a real luthier for a set up and for $30 he filed the nut down and since then it has played great and sounds good.

In the years that followed I have become "mandolin savvy" and have bought a mandolin from an independent builder and am very happy with it. Since then I have wanted to unload the MMS-5 and get a new "backup" mandolin. When I saw new ownership had taken over and asked in page one of this thread if the trade up policy would still be in effect I was flatly told no.

I have no financial "loss" at this point but since the trade up policy will not be honored I have "lost" about $300 which is the market difference between what I paid new and what I could sell for.

If FOTW wants to establish a new reputation, they are off to a bad start. I, for one, will not be doing any business with them because ...

1.) They are not honoring past promises
2.) There is no clear delineation between the old and new business and management
3.) There are too many other, quality, already established places of business and independent builders selling mandolins of high quality that I simply won't gamble again on what I consider to be an expensive purchase.

Not bashing and no vitriol here, just my feeling and experience.

At the same time I wish Jay the best, but as others have said, this smells fishy to me.

- pete

[beebop]

"First, this new manager starts showing up on forums spreading the word about FOTW under new ownership, and by his own admission, this is a person that has never posted on forums before, but all of a sudden, he starts posting on the couple forums where FOTW's reputation is well known. I just don't think this is a coincidence."


Howdy, y'all. Hope you don't mind me butting in. I've been a lurker awhile and have posted my Folk-of-the-Woe tale at Banjo Hangout. (Same handle, if you want to be bored to death reading it.)

One possibility for this "coincidence" is that I posted links to this forum and Banjo Hangout in my complaint to the NM Attorney General. The new owner apparently had a copy of it in his hand when he called me to promise to make things right.

I'm not sure what to think yet. I'm currently waiting to hear the explanation for why the trade up instrument that was supposed to have been shipped directly to me (in NC) from Michael Kelly (in FL) last Thursday is not here yet.

Meanwhile, I just called the toll free number at FOTW to talk to Jay & was told, "He is no longer with us." #Apparently he had a death in the family that is going to prevent him from returning. So, there is no manager. The fellow I spoke to said they weren't sure they were even going to replace him. (BTW, it's the same guy who has answered the phone in the past--sort of a British accent.)

He said that Patric would be there in about an hour.

(edited out my tacky note of mistrust.)

Good luck!

[mandoJeremy]

Very interesting to say the least. If Jay did have a death in the family then I send him my condolences and prayers and I hate that for him because he seemed to be a good guy. But, FOTW is still shady with their business and Jay will probably be better off in the long run not being associated with them in any way. Oh well, I am still sitting back and watching!

[beebop]

Well, I'll be. My bad, I reckon. All this time I thought Michael Kelly was in Florida (mainly because their website sort of mentions Clearwater, FL.) Turns out, they're in CA. I guess when the guy I talked to at MK told me they weren't in the path of that hurricane a couple months ago, he wasn't kidding!

Patric did call. I now have a UPS tracking number & a 20 pound box is due Monday. If it really has what was ordered in it, I will let you know, after I do a little dance.

bee

[Keith Erickson]

beepop,

I stayed away from this thread for a while because there was a lot of B****'n being posted here from folks who were never wronged by FOTW in the first place.

It seems to be that you've dealt with these folks and you've been hosed as of a week ago.

Not good on their part to say the least http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

I also called asking for Jay this morning. It seems like they've got their stories down pretty good when I asked fopr him. It almost sounded like it was practiced a few times if you ask me.

I spoke with a guy named Tad or Trad or something like that.

My better half has a cousin up in Ruidoso and her parents have a cabin up there.

Let me do some fishin' around. It's a small town with lots of friendly people. Some of those folks tend to talk a little too much.

I hope you get your issues resolved ASAP. Who knows? They're probably reading this thread also.

[beebop]

Keith, looks like we were posting at the same time.

Trad has been there awhile. Must not be a relative of the former owner.

[beebop]

Y'know, I was pretty aggravated when I made that call, so I may have focused on the wrong words. The fellow on the phone did say, "He is no longer with us", but I think he might have said "leave of absence" as well. They don't mean the same thing to me, but that feller didn't sound southern, so who knows?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[J. Mark Lane]

Kind of odd that the Defender of the Flame didn't even come here to post about his departure.

You all go right ahead and give FOTW your credit card numbers. I'll just sit back and have some more popcorn.

[Keith Erickson]

You all go right ahead and give FOTW your credit card numbers.
Hey there Mark,

May I borrow your credit card number? # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

I'm too chicken to experiment with mine...

[Eric F.]

Curiouser and curiouser, isn't it?

[fatt-dad]

Yeah, were's banjoguy. I mean just because he may have lost his job, doesn't mean he can't explain what's going on. Does it?

f-d

[jasona]

Yeah, were's banjoguy. I mean just because he may have lost his job, doesn't mean he can't explain what's going on. Does it?

f-d
Or, of course, a death in the family took him out of town suddenly and he is worrying about more important things. This could simply be a misunderstanding. Still, I await with an arched eyebrow news of whether he was just on leave or has left the company. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[bjc]

Maybe after hearing of all the problems he's joined the Merchant Marines....

[newblue]

As a Christian I believe in redemption, however, I am always skeptical when someone requires a second redemption. (hmm... maybe thats why so many people are skeptical of me) anyway, I'd like to see this thing work out for FOTW and all the customers with issues. I always pull for the underdog. For now I will cheer on FOTW but my credit card will remain in my pocket.

[beebop]

I hope the credit card remarks aren't related to what I posted. Just in case, though, my situation is from a trade-in that was sent to FOTW over a year ago. No credit cards were harmed in this transaction. Should I actually receive what I eagerly anticipate on Monday, it would point toward the possibility that the new owner really might be going to take care of the problems he inherited.

Also, FWIW, I believe Jay did mention that he would be away until Tuesday due to personal family matters. Perhaps he didn't expect that to include death. That sort of thing can sometimes take longer than anticipated, especially if it involves travelling to another state.

I'm kinda sorry I mentioned it, now.

[duuuude]

Geeeez, this reminds me of a bad remake of "Lord Of The Flies", give the guy a break! He said earlier he was going out of town, and then ya hear about a possible death in the family, and now yer all demanding an explanation from him. Give it a rest, go play yer mandos & let the guy attend to his business, second-guessing and reading things into the situation isn't doing anybody any good.

[J. Mark Lane]

...second-guessing and reading things into the situation isn't doing anybody any good.
Yeah, but it sure is fun.

[fatt-dad]

O.K., my bad - sorry to all.

fatt I-guess-you're-supposed-to-read-the-whole-thread-and-keep-it-straight dad

[mandoJeremy]

Duuuude, you should read beebop's post above where he said that he called FOTW and they said that "Jay is no longer with us and that they didn't know if they were even going to replace him." #That's not "just going out of town".

mando-still highly suspicious-Jeremy

[Ronnie L]

Blimey! Now I dont feel so guilty about auditioning Mandolins on their Mpg pages and buying somwhere else!

Disclaimer; The poster of this message is relation to a FOTW owner past or present...

[duuuude]

"Jay is no longer with us and that they didn't know if they were even going to replace him."

So what does that prove? It isn't possible that unforseen circumstances are keeping him away longer than expected? I know if I were to go somewhere to handle some family biz and an unexpected death came up, the last thing on my mind would be how the folks at the cafe were getting along. Suspicions are fine but condemning him before the facts are known is just vigilanteism. I say give the facts time to sort out instead of gettin' all worked up. Even if it is a snow job, ain't nuthin' gonna be accomplished until they present the facts and move on from there.

[steve V. johnson]

beebop sez: "Should I actually receive what I eagerly anticipate on Monday, it would point toward the possibility that the new owner really might be going to take care of the problems he inherited."

It might be good intentions or it might have something to do with that "Attorney General" bit you mentioned. Having a state justice deparment sniffing about can iron out the most twisted of 'intentions'... <GGG>

We paranoids (only we know who we are!) are loving the 'disappearance' of Jay... conspiracy theories abound! LOL!!

stv

[beebop]

Duuuude, even though that is a quote from the post I now wish I had never written, I agree with you.

The confusing part was that the guy told me "he's no longer with us", but as I added a few posts ago, I think he also said "leave of absence". It may be a simple misplacement of words. It probably doesn't make sense to replace him if he's coming back, but just isn't sure when.

Despite the confusing reply by whoever it was that I spoke with, he did apparently give the message to Patric & my call was returned. Before the "takeover", that happened exactly ONCE since July of 2004. Patric has returned every single one of my phones calls, so far.

That's not going to prompt a revolution or anything, but it has gotten my attention.

[beebop]

I promised to report back, so here I am. The guitar did, indeed, arrive today! The new owner is all right by me. Sounds like a very nice guy on the phone, btw. I didn't want to mention that until I felt it was real, but I'm feeling rather positive and happy right now.

I hope that things work out for the rest of you who are owed money or an instrument. I'll still keep a very watchful eye, but I think it's possible that things at FOTW might turn around. Good luck!

bee

[banjoguy]

I have always kept my personal life separate from my business affairs. I am not comfortable with what I am about to post.

I was hired by the new owners of FOTW to be the mgr. I started as manager on AUG 1st. On Aug. 2nd I found out my older brother's cancer had returned and spread throughout his body, he was not expected to live out the month. I left on the 11th of Aug. to be with him. He died Sun the 14th. His funeral was Aug 20th. His obituary can be found in the online archives of the Fort Worth Star Telegram 17th or 18th of Aug.

His wife (my sister in law) is also in declining health, she is currenly being cared for by hospice. At this time my first priority is my family.

All of you, that I have personally contacted and have been working with to resolve your problems with the former FOTW should contact Patric at FOTW. I have posted this info only because it seems everytime I have posted regarding the new ownership or myself it has generated a large amount of skepticsm. The new owners are very committed to taking FOTW forward and restoring it's reputation.

I RESPECTFULLY ASK THAT NONE OF YOU POST ANY CONDOLENCES TO ME REGARDING MY BROTHER.

thank you

Jay Castleberry

[mythicfish]

Whew!
This thread is about as wierd as whiskers on a duck!
As a card carrying member of the ACLU and a fully-fledged crumudgeon (sp?),
I respectfully suggest that we all paint our teeth green and go to sleep.

Curt "Two Hats" Roseman

[Kbone]

Why don't you guys just chill for a while, and give the guy a little space. You know what J....s ( fear of lawyers ) said he that is without s..n (another no no )let him..you know the rest.

[beebop]

Jay, I feel I owe you an apology for even mentioning anything. I am very sorry.

[duuuude]

Well, there ya have it! Relax, give it time, and all things will work themselves out.

[Pete Braccio]

I think that this whole episode is a sad commentary about how some on this board act. That a person who has just suffered the loss of a brother feels that he has to come on here and PROVE that this has happened is pathetic.

I'm not saying don't post unless you have something good to say. I'm saying don't post if all you have to say is negative, rumor, or derogatory based solely on conjecture. This goes double if you're making these comments on issues that don't impact you directly.

Beebop, this is not directed at you. I think that you tried to defuse the situation after your first post.

Pete

[Keith Erickson]

What I find amazing is how this thread was allowed to continue as long as it has?

Funny? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Remember when the administrators were threatening posts with "short leashes" and all of the jazz when they didn't like what was was being posted.

Well I guess if you're going to take pot shots at Gibson or FOTW, I guess it's open season. As for NPR and PBS, they are protected by the endangered species act. You can't say anything bad about them. Oh no.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

My pot shots will be reserved for Dove and Quail season which will start here in Texas on the 1st of September.

[Keith Erickson]

Keith, you are a blithering idiot. #How's that for a pot-shot?
Hey Mark,

WOW!!!!

I'm trying to understand your seething rage with all things FOTW.

You did not do any business with FOTW but yet:

-You come here and claim they have a criminal past
-You've made all sorts of kook conspiracy accusations

Please help me understand you at this point.

What must it be like to be you to run down Gibson and FOTW ever chance you get?

Are you that miserable with your job that you have all sorts of free time to sit that and pass judgement because you have a "law degree"? ( which we keep hearing in ever single post )

So am I suppose to be impressed or something? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[J. Mark Lane]

Keith,

I deleted my previous post, not because anyone suggested I should, but simply because it was intemperate, and I don't like to be that way.

To answer your question, I don't like to see people deceived. What's wrong with that? Seems to me a good quality. You are puzzled by that?

Equally perplexing to me is your apparently willingness to defend an organization that you have no connection with. But be that as it may, we both have a right to our opinions.

I apologize for the name-calling. Not my style. It's fine with me if we just have different views on some things. That's what makes the world go 'round.

OK?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Keith Erickson]

I apologize for the name-calling. #Not my style. #It's fine with me if we just have different views on some things. #That's what makes the world go 'round.

OK?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Hey there Mark,

Not a problem. Apology was accepted even before you posted.

Listen this subject has been a very emotional one for lot's of folks for one reason or another. I'm not disputing that what so ever. I have full confidence that all parties will resolve their issues and move on.

...let's shake hands and move on and play our mandolins.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[duuuude]

I see it as defending trust in your fellow man, trusting someone at their word until they prove otherwise, but then that's just me I guess.

[fatt-dad]

(from a man stricken with cancer, but enjoying life, that I met on a ferry in Lake Chelan in 1981)

"Love many, trust few, always paddle your own canoe"

My take on "trust".

fatt who-doesn't-always-post-the-right-thing-but-tries-nonetheless dad

[357mag]

Ive never owned a Gibson, and Ive never done business with FOTW. So everybody send their Gibsond to me and buy a Johnson from FOTW. That way, everyone is a winner.

Cant ya just feel the love in this room?

Ill probably get banned for posting that, but I couldnt resist. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[DryBones]

called FOTW again today in regards to back-ordered items. Was told with the transition going on things are still getting worked out but they should still have my things in 2 weeks. Of course this is what they told me 2 weeks ago and when I placed the original order.At this point I have lost hope of seeing these items at all. Moving on and will hope to be surprised in the mail someday. Not holding my breathe though. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[ironscot]

Not to beat a dead horse, buuuuut. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Jay tried to get ahold of me a couple of times, but called the house and I'm never getting home til late generally. When I called him back I was told of his unfortunate circumstances, but was told that Patrick would be in touch with me. He did call me this morning on my cell. Once to get my side of the story and called me back again to hammer out the details as to how my situation could be satisfied.

If it all goes according to hoyle, I'll be posting back on this thread in about a week or so and telling everyone what a standup guy he is. That is how I sincerely want it to happen. After two years of being run around, I reckon I can give the harried new guy a few days. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kevin Briggs]

I had a nightmarish experience with FoTW that ended in March, 2005. It was like the Twilight Zone every time I called or emailed. However, FoTW did resolve my issue to my staisfaction. It took almost a year, but it did get resolved.

My advice is to change the name of the store. When FoTW was really bruning some bridges for a while, the bad news spread quickly via the Internet, and musicians were lobbying against them via word of mouth. Why not just drop the name?

By the way, good luck! I always felt that Mickey's crew didn't mean to screw up so bad, so I hope you do what they intended to do, which is make money in an honest way via something they love.

Will Mickey be doing any more videos or anything, with Mel Bay? I'd try to email him, but he didn't respond to the last 10 or so I sent last summer, when I was beggin for mercy.

[Kevin Briggs]

FYI - I read that Tradd is still with the business. That's the guy who got FoTW in all kinds of trouble with me a year and a half ago. That's a brainless decision keeping that yahoo.

[ironscot]

FYI - I read that Tradd is still with the business. That's the guy who got FoTW in all kinds of trouble with me a year and a half ago. That's a brainless decision keeping that yahoo.
I'm not too sure who should be lynched over the inept operation of the old guard? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

There's only so many feet of rope and so many that should drop. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

I've spoken with everyone but the mop and bucket man over the last two years. They all sounded sincere, but were apparently over their heads.

Quien Sabe?

[Stephen Perry]

I've been mulling over the whole FOTW thing for quite a while. I strongly believe this is a simple corporate disintegration with growth and time thing. I've seen it a bunch in the technical consulting field. I'm not an expert, but here's the setting.

1. Business model has a few weaknesses. Relies on personal contact from principals with clients. Has some basic weaknesses (e.g., 100% trade no matter what). Little traditional management experience or understanding. Management by personal contact all the time with each employee, rather than by developing systems.

2. Growth without imposition of controls. Management by personal contact continues after the point where a structured management system is needed. Either the principals won't release control, or they don't realize they're out of their depth.

3. Burnout. Principals either keep going harder at systems that don't work or they burn out and back off, letting the employees work things out. I've see the "them (customers) v. us (employees)" thing in technical consulting. I figure when clients start to look like enemies that there is trouble. [I worked for a firm that sued their biggest client over BS stuff - surprise, a for sale sign on their builing now.] I figured something was wrong when nobody ever knew what was going on, when I'd fax an invoice again and again, etc. Indications of a failing system.

4. Collapse and either disappearance or reorganization.



This pattern seems to apply in broad terms to FOTW. I understand that the principals stepped back to do other things some time ago. I had conversations about that with one particular individual. Seemed like partially a change in interests, partially burnout. At the time, a person with a business background came on board to organize things. [This guy didn't organize things, instead he did wonderful moves like calling me up to tell me I'm an unethical ####### and that he'll slander me all over the web.] So things came apart.

Now the principals have moved the business into others' hands. They may well be gradually getting things in shape. But it always takes time to do right. I suspect much of the business needs reconstructing from the ground up. Even a small business takes quite a bit of effort to restructure. Jumping quickly to put out fires and satisfy individual problems can simply complicate the overall recovery.

Anyway, I hope this is what is happening. I received a call from one of the former FOTW big whigs asking if there were any loose ends to tie up. This individual indicated they were resolving issues with suppliers systematically to make sure the old organization had all debts and issues settled. Apparently some customers are getting communications about resolving issues. This is sort of what I'd expect from a real reorganization. Slower than seems reasonable from the outside!

Regardless, anyone with outstanding beefs might find that a more formal presentation [facts, evidence (e.g. charge card statements), and what actions would resolve the issue] would be useful in helping FOTW determine whether claims are real or inflated, whether they need to be resolved now or later. Those who are either too emotionally charged over FOTW issues or unfamiliar with pressing for resolution through formal channels might consider engaging dispute resolution specialists. The squeeky wheel thing.

Otherwise, letting FOTW do their thing without comment might be fair. I don't necessarily think the name is a liability. Most people aren't going to find a checkered past, they'll just look at the testimonials. And I suspect most people were very happy dealing with them, even though too many had some trouble of one kind or another.

Be well.

[beebop]

"Otherwise, letting FOTW do their thing without comment might be fair."

Excellent points to ponder, Steve.

FWIW, the new owner asked me to post to this forum when my issue was resolved. It sounded to me that they are taking their internet reputation very seriously now. Very much aware of what it was, that it was deserved, & that people are going to continue to be skeptical until they see real results.

I think it's a pretty good plan to try to make allies out of those who were wronged. What better advertising of the new FOTW than seeing past mistakes remedied?

But, you're right. It's not going to convince people overnight. It will take time.

[JEStanek]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Some good news to report. Folk of the Wood has made right by me. #I am officially satisfied. #It's bonified. #I've posted for quite awhile, often when I shouldn't... #I hope you'll bear with the long story, please.

In 2001 I bought a Kentuky KM140S from Folk of the Wood. My mando to replace the untunable Lonestar Venice I bought first. My Kentucky came well packaged, set up, bridge in place, ready to go upon retuning. #I enjoyed learning my first chords and Jesse James on it. #In early 2003 I used bonus money to step up to a Morgan Monroe F style and sent FOTW my old Kentucky. #I got my new mando and didn't really follow up much on the KM-140S. I assumed they would credit me when ever my KM-140S sold. #No e-mails... no credit.. I didn't follow up. #A year later I called and called and called and worked with a woman whose name now escapes me. I never really got an answer about my KM-140S being sold or me being credited. #I let more time go by (it was, after all only $130).

This year I started working with David at FOTW and investigating. #He coudn't find any record of a refund but found my purchase records in late May/June. #Through June he looked and I called back every two weeks or so. #Come July the business transfer was hapenning/about to happen everything in old business went on hold for discussions.

In August I call again and am told they'll happily send me a new Km-140S. #That's fine with me... That $130 was long gone and outta the budget... plus I get a second beater for my kids or possibly a tax write off if I donate it somehwere (and its probably cheaper for FOTW to send me a mando than credit me the $130). #

Late August, I call and am told the Kentucky's are back ordered way out though October but, David offers me a Johnson MA120 natural instead (this is a better mando in that it is all solid woods instead of just a solid top). #Seven days later, I have a shiny new mando that came expertly packaged, well set up, bridge in place, and ready to go after retuning. I am a happy camper. #I think they went beyond the call of duty to try and make this error right. #Sure it isn't a high end mando or a lot of money for either of us but I feel everyone should know that Folk of the Wood is fixing some errors from their past.

I cannot bash FOTW because, for me, they did the right thing. #I hope others who are sucessfully getting their past issues cleared up will post as well. #Lets hope we can let FOTW form a new reputation as being fine to deal with. #Best of Luck to those still working with FOTW and to FOTW in their future business.

Jamie Stanek http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[357mag]

Outstanding, Jamie. Glad you got taken care of.

[Darren Kern]

That's great to hear Jamie. And by the way, that MA-120 *can* be a decent mando. My first mando was a MA-120 from Folk of the Wood, and it was really decent for a beginner. I've since set one up for someone else, and it was terrible.

[chuksdad]

Just Curious, Has anyone ever received a return phone call or email from anyone other than Jay at FOTW? I'm waiting on a pickup I ordered in January and I know they are just hoping I'll go away. Jay did email me on 8/11. But nothing before or since.

[kidtwist]

My one experience with FOTW indicated incompetence more than dishonesty.

I tried to buy a Stelling banjo from them. I choose them because of their upgrade policy. I called, was put on hold for ten minutes and then got a dialtone. I called a second time, same thing. The next day I tried one more time. I explained what had happened to the person who answered. She said I needed to talk to (some name I can't remember) and said she needed to transfer me. Once again, ten minutes on hold followed by a dialtone. I finally called Elderly Instruments. Success. From the other stories I'm reading, I guess I got lucky that FOTW didn't know how to operate their phone system.

[Bill Snyder]

You did see in another thread that Jay Castleberry is no longer with Folk of The Wood didn't you?

[Jeff Hildreth]

Just Curious

Is it "bashing" to point out the truth and the obvious. ?

No need to answer.

jjh

[chuksdad]

A followup - After emailing Patric Pearson, I received a full refund for the mando pickup I ordered in January.

[DryBones]

having received a credit for the case I never got with my mando order I figured the tuner and DVD would never be seen or heard of again. Today, in the mail, a package from FOTW with my remaining items without me even contacting them again. Seems to me they are trying to clean things up and move forward. Good for them... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[BlindRalphJr]

I hafta say I'm dismayed.
Mickey could play anything with strings and did most if not all the demos on the website.

I bought my current mandolin from them, a Johnson.
And no jokes about me and Pewee whoever getting caught playing with our Johnsons in public.

Ralph http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[BlindRalphJr]

I hafta say I'm dismayed.
Mickey could play anything with strings and did most if not all the demos on the website.

I bought my current mandolin from them, a Johnson.
And no jokes about me and Pewee whoever getting caught playing with our Johnsons in public.

Ralph http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[BlindRalphJr]

Ya might know on my first post on this board I'd send it twice and have a double signature. Oh well, I may be new here but I've been on the web since 1996.
I didn't know all that was going on with FOTW. I've dealt with them at least once with good results. Maybe I'm just lucky. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Greenmando]

You can always click the little "delete" tab and delete a post. I often make a mistake and it is almost easier to delete than to correct a post.

[ironscot]

In all fairness and with favorable results at last, I can say that FOTW and I are square on the deal. Patric went the extra mile in my opinion, though comms were sketchy. I think that they are like cats in hot ashes over there and that is the source of much of their angst, as well as more than a few customers. I told Patric that I'd need a couple of days to try the new baby out and see which way I wanted to run. Some simple security via plastic let that happen.
With pangs of sadness I sent my Breedlove Alpine back to them today and am now getting better acquainted with my Rogue. I think this is going to be a lasting relationship here. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Now, I need a mandocello. Any suggestions? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[JimW]

Ironscot, yes, one suggestion, DON'T BUY IT FROM FOTW.