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davidp158
Aug-06-2005, 1:47pm
I'm fairly new to mandolin, and want to know if there is a good reference for how to properly position the left hand. When I play guitar (my main instrument) I frequently position my thumb behind the neck, near the top of the neck (not in a strict classical guitar style). This holds the neck in place and gives me good leverage when fretting. With mandolin, I find the neck falls into the crook between my thumb and forefinger, which makes positioning fingers difficult. If I try to position my thumb behind the neck, long stretch chords are difficult, but that may be due to my lack of playing time. With the neck deep into the crook of my hand, it seems that my fingers have to bend too far to reach the strings. I'd prefer to have the fingerboard closer to my fingertips, but I haven't found a way to hold the neck to do this.

Many mandolin player photos I've seen show the tip of the thumb poking above the top of the fingerboard. My thumb tends to protrude much further, so I'm wondering how these players are keeping their thumb in place.

Does anyone know of any on-line photos, or printed instruction books, #showing "proper" left hand position. Over the years, I've found that hand position makes a huge difference on guitar, and I don't want to develope any bad habits with mandolin. Extra stress and cramped hand positions can really limit playing and comfort, so any suggesstions would be most appreciated.

thanks for your time,
Dave

John Flynn
Aug-06-2005, 4:43pm
I am sure it is personal preference, but the way I have seen it most often in instructional books and pics of great players is to roughly have the center of your thumbprint on the side of the fingerboard, with the thumb angled at bit toward the headstock.

davidp158
Aug-07-2005, 7:04pm
I am sure it is personal preference, but the way I have seen it most often in instructional books and pics of great players is to roughly have the center of your thumbprint on the side of the fingerboard, with the thumb angled at bit toward the headstock.
Thanks for the post, Johnny.

Is this your left hand position? Do you have a gap between the back of the neck and your hand, or does the neck touch your hand? I find that my thumb gets sore if its behind the neck, but I can't seem to hold the neck in position with the thumb at the side of the fingerboard, as you describe. I'm sure part of the soreness will fade as I develop muscles and left hand technique, but I'm concerned that I may be developing bad technique.

Any other comments would be most welcome,

Dave

groveland
Aug-07-2005, 8:32pm
David -

I am not an expert. However, I have played guitar for a good while, and now play mandolin. I have seen the the pros thumb position just as you described it, just peeking over the top of the neck, angling toward the headstock. Here's what I found.

I keep my thumb on the back of the mandolin neck with the inside of the first knuckle against the back of the neck. From the front, you can see the top of the thumb a bit over the top of the neck, angling toward the headstock. Because the thumb is behind the neck, I can get a stretch from the index finger on the first fret to the pinky on the 10th fret. (Also, it looks like a lot of photos I've seen.) Thumb any further over the top, and you lose the stretch.

I also recommend viewing that free online Thile/Marshall video, what is it, that Woodsongs thing.... If someone can dig up the link that would be great... Watch their hands, they each hold the neck differently.

davidp158
Aug-08-2005, 2:51am
Thanks for the replies and suggestions.

I recently got a Chris Thile video, Mandolin Essentials, and he mentions keeping the fingers parallel (I think he means knuckles) to the strings, but he doesn't say anything about the back of the neck position. The tip of his thumb does extend as you both describe, but I can't tell what's happening with the rest of his hand.

Thanks again for the replies and information. Much appreciated.

Dave

Pete Martin
Aug-09-2005, 11:17am
Here is what I learned from a Performing Arts doc when working on easing my tendenitous. #

Keep the left arm straight from the elbow to where the fingers join the hand, dont bend the left wrist!! #Where the fingers join the hand should be parallel to the top of the fingerboard. #Where the index finger joins the palm should be SOFTLY against the E string side of the neck, let the thumb touch SOFTLY against the G string side of the neck. #The angle of the thumb is where ever it goes naturally with NO TENSION in the thumb. #Keep the fingers angled aprox 45 degrees to the frets and the side of the neck.

Very important to keep tension to a minimum.

davidp158
Aug-09-2005, 1:38pm
Here is what I learned from a Performing Arts doc when working on easing my tendenitous. #

Keep the left arm straight from the elbow to where the fingers join the hand, dont bend the left wrist!! #Where the fingers join the hand should be parallel to the top of the fingerboard. #Where the index finger joins the palm should be SOFTLY against the E string side of the neck, let the thumb touch SOFTLY against the G string side of the neck. #The angle of the thumb is where ever it goes naturally with NO TENSION in the thumb. #Keep the fingers angled aprox 45 degrees to the frets and the side of the neck.

Very important to keep tension to a minimum.
Pete,

Thanks for your post. I totally agree about the tension issue. I often catch myself with too much tension, and it limits flexibility, finger reach and wreaks havoc with my playing.

BTW, I noticed you're located in Issaquah. I live in the Eastgate area, right off I-90. Howdy neighbor! Maybe I should hook up with you for a few lessons. Let's chat.

Dave Patterson
425.746.7245

Hog on Ice
Aug-09-2005, 1:42pm
The Thile/Marshall video is at Woodsongs (http://www.woodsongs.com/showlist.asp). Scroll down to item 287.

I'm not sure Chris's posture is the example to live by, but if it meant I could play like him I'd gladly take enough analgesics sit all hunched over like that....

c~

davidp158
Aug-09-2005, 2:05pm
The Thile/Marshall video is at Woodsongs (http://www.woodsongs.com/showlist.asp). Scroll down to item 287. #

I'm not sure Chris's posture is the example to live by, but if it meant I could play like him I'd gladly take enough analgesics sit all hunched over like that....

c~
Hey, thanks for the link! I'll check it out right now.

dp

davidp158
Aug-12-2005, 6:36pm
Here is what I learned from a Performing Arts doc when working on easing my tendenitous. #

Keep the left arm straight from the elbow to where the fingers join the hand, dont bend the left wrist!! #Where the fingers join the hand should be parallel to the top of the fingerboard. #Where the index finger joins the palm should be SOFTLY against the E string side of the neck, let the thumb touch SOFTLY against the G string side of the neck. #The angle of the thumb is where ever it goes naturally with NO TENSION in the thumb. #Keep the fingers angled aprox 45 degrees to the frets and the side of the neck.

Very important to keep tension to a minimum.
Pete,

Well, I've been trying to get my left hand into the position you describe, but I must be reading your description wrong. If I rest the neck at the point where my index finger meets my palm (hand), I can't fret the E string very well. There just isn't any room to get my finger to bend into a fretting position, unless I angle my fingers at a fairly steep angle. Doing so limits how far I can spread my fingers, and makes fretting much harder as the finger pressure is applied from an angle, not straight down.

As I play, the mandolin neck works its way into the crook of my hand, and my thumb is extended way over the top of the fingerboard. If I position my thumb behind the neck, and try to hold the neck in place, I have great finger access, but its not comfortable for the thumb, and induces pressure and tension on the thumb. I must be doing something wrong, but I can't quite grasp the concept here.

I don't know if these are common issues with mandolin, but I just don't feel that my left hand technique will work in the long run. I'd like to fix it before I develope a bad playing habit.

Does anyone have a good photo, taken from the back of the mandolin, to show proper left hand positon? I'm just not "getting it".

Thanks in advance for any suggestions you may have,

Dave

davidp158
Aug-12-2005, 7:49pm
The Thile/Marshall video is at Woodsongs (http://www.woodsongs.com/showlist.asp). Scroll down to item 287. #

I'm not sure Chris's posture is the example to live by, but if it meant I could play like him I'd gladly take enough analgesics sit all hunched over like that....

c~
I have been watching the Woodsongs episode with Mike Marhsall and Chris Thile (thanks again for the link) and its interesting to see how their left hand techniques differ. Mike seems to play with his neck deeper in the crook of his left hand, and his fingers and thumb extended higher over the fingerboard. Chris tends to hold the neck away from his palm, and frequently positions his thumb low behind the neck like a guitarist. I can't say that one technique is better than the other, but Chris' technique seems bit more fluid with more economy of motion. Chris' posture looks like it could cause some issues down the road, but he seems relaxed, flexible and doesn't stay locked in one position. I think that may help keep him limber (at least while he's young!).

Dave

groveland
Aug-12-2005, 10:36pm
My thoughts exactly. Thumb behind, thumb over the top, just pick your mando-master... You have your choice, and no one can fault you for it!

Bluegrasstjej
Aug-13-2005, 4:55am
As I play, the mandolin neck works its way into the crook of my hand, and my thumb is extended way over the top of the fingerboard. If I position my thumb behind the neck, and try to hold the neck in place, I have great finger access, but its not comfortable for the thumb, and induces pressure and tension on the thumb. I must be doing something wrong, but I can't quite grasp the concept here.
I had this problem when I held the thumb right on the back of the neck. I had good access to the finger board and could play well also with the fourth finger, but my thumb got way too tense. A teacher I had some years ago showed me to do it this way to make the fingers more flexible, but as I improved and started to play faster, this tension problem came up, so I watched some videos of the pros, for example Bill Monroe, and most of them hold the thumb sort of pointing up against the head of the mandolin, when playing single notes. When playing chords I let the mandolin rest on the palm (not minor chords though, because then I use some kind of barre thing). This works much better for me and keeps my hand more relaxed. It didn't take long until I got used to this way of playing, so don't worry about bad playing habits, it's no disaster, if you need to learn another playing habit, it's no more difficult than learning a new lick or tune.

Peter Hackman
Aug-15-2005, 8:04am
I went home and checked. My thumb is somewhere along the side of the neck, but
slanted or bent backwards.

By the way, there is a closeup of Frank Wakefield's left hand in another thread on the BG forum

Ken Sager
Aug-15-2005, 10:46am
I'd like to add that everybody's hands are different sizes (length and width) as are their fingers. One left hand technique can't work for everybody.

That said, find the left hand position that allows you 1) maximize reach and ease and 2) minimize tension as Pete said. Your wrist should not be bent (carpal tunnel) and you shouldn't "grip" the mandolin with the left hand, just hold it and squeeze enough with fingers and thumb to cleanly note the strings when pressed.

A lesson is a good idea, too. Have somebody (Pete would be an outstanding choice) to see what you're doing and help you make adjustments.

Somebody with a camera should post a couple photos...

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Good luck,
Ken

davidp158
Aug-15-2005, 12:44pm
Thanks for all the great replies, everyone. I appreciate all the information shared, and time taken to respond. I've found that attention to proper technique can make a huge difference in both the short run and long run. I'm still struggling a bit with the left hand, but I'm sure I'll find something that works.

all the best,
Dave

Gail Hester
Aug-15-2005, 5:06pm
Here you go.

davidp158
Aug-15-2005, 6:18pm
Here you go.
Thanks for the photo! Can we squeeze a few more microphones in there?

Dave

Pete Martin
Aug-16-2005, 1:08am
Dave, to get your index finger on the E string, you need to twist your left forearm so that where the pinky joins the palm of the hand moves away from the E string side of the neck. #Your index finger then curls comfortably onto the fingerboard.

I can of course show you this in person. #If you are interested, call me at 206-367-9756. #I live in Seattle, but teach one day in Issaquah.

davidp158
Aug-16-2005, 11:29am
Dave, to get your index finger on the E string, you need to twist your left forearm so that where the pinky joins the palm of the hand moves away from the E string side of the neck. #Your index finger then curls comfortably onto the fingerboard.

I can of course show you this in person. #If you are interested, call me at 206-367-9756. #I live in Seattle, but teach one day in Issaquah.
Pete,

Thanks for the replies. I'll give you a call to discuss lessons in Issaquah. What day and time are you there?

BTW, I see that you've worked with Tab Tabscott. I worked with Tab in a band called the Lloyds. Tell 'em I said hello when you see him next.

Dave Patterson

CraigF
Aug-16-2005, 10:46pm
Gail,

Thanks for the pic. That's exactly how I hold my mando. I always read that the thumb is too far over the top. But, I have long arms and if I don't do that my wrist gets bent in a very unnatural position. This gets painful very quickly. So, over the top goes the thumb.

RolandTumble
Aug-25-2005, 7:02pm
Well, I'm almost completely self-taught, so take this with a grain of salt:

When I started playing, I tried to put my thumb in the middle of the back of the neck. Incredible tension-induced pain, incredibly quickly. Put the mando down for months.

When I picked it up again, I sort of "fell" into what I'm doing now, which is similar to one of the descriptions above: the treble side of the neck rests right on the joint where the index finger meets the palm (on the pad, where you can feel the joint from the palm side with the finger slightly bent), and the thumb finds its own place on the bass side (both of these are on the side of the neck, just back of the neck/fingerboard joint).

Interesting thing is that, if you ignore the twist caused by how the body of the instruments are held, the relationship between the LH and the neck is almost exactly the same as how I hold a fiddle--and I did have lessons on that, with no LH corrections by my teacher.

Dfyngravity
Aug-25-2005, 8:52pm
When I hold the mandolin, it is very similar to most of the instructional books. The 3rd joint of my first finger makes contact on the lower half of the back of the neck. The mando doesn't completely rest there but just a little bit. That's where I get a little bit of support, the strap does the rest. Now that being said it is fairly impossible for the neck to be down in the bottom part of the "v" between your thumb and first finger, really truely if the neck is sitting all the way down there it is extremely hard to move your first finger around on the fingerboard. As for my thumb it sits behing the 3rd fret( in 1st position) on the back of the neck slightly pointed towards the nut. The pad of my thumb sits on the upper half of the neck(that's where a "v" shaped neck helps out) with the tip of my thumb barely hanging over the edge of the fingerboard.

That's just how I do it. And like early said, everyones hand is a different size. As long as it feels comfortable, you can move freely and it doesn't make playing difficult than keep on doing it. The main thing you want to make sure with your left hand is that you can move freely up and down the neck and that all your fingers on your left hand are close to the fingerbaord. I know Chris Thile really stresses keeping that pinky finger as close to the fingerbaord as possible, with out dampining the sound.

davidp158
Aug-29-2005, 6:12pm
Thanks again to all who took time to respond to this. Lots of great information to work with. I understand that everyone's technique will vary somewhat, and that has provided a variety of options to try.

This is a great forum, and I appreciate all the replies.

cheers,
Dave