Opinions on tab [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

arbarnhart

Aug-05-2005, 8:59pm

I do sometimes like to see both notation and tab for something. Sometimes it helps a lot by suggesting a more convenient place to play something than I had picked out. I try to use the key signature to position on a scale I use (an FFCP scale).

However, I recently had the opportunity to play with a niece and newphew who play guitar. My nephew seemd to be leaps and bounds above my niece and I. He knew some tunes that he could flat tear up. I would ask him about the key and the changes so I could try to diddle around with something that might resemble rhythm or at least mix somewhat harmonically. He had no clue. My niece knew about a dozen chords and a couple of scales. She could tell me enough about the few songs she knew so that I coul play along and I was able to teach her a couple.

The up side is that my nephew has outstanding dexterity and (this one is really important) learned some impressive sounding things quickly and is far less likely to give it up out of frustration.

It's a double edged sword.

The other thing I like is TabView. Having an application that will play midi backup and/or lead for me, let me turn instruments off or on, up or down, adjust tempo, start/stop/repeat using any beat boundaries, see the music I need to play in tab and/or notation and having a massive library of songs, all for free, is just incredible. You can turn away from the display and use it purely for ear training.

I do have a fiddle tune book I like to play out of from time to time to keep me honest. I am trying to do more by ear these days also; probably about half of the new stuff I learn is by ear. However, I try to learn phrase/licks, not just notes, that I recognize in songs. A suggested way to improve one as far as fingering goes will help.

groveland

Aug-05-2005, 10:15pm

Holy smokes, John, you sure put a whole lotta nails in that coffin! I agree wholeheartedly.

Ear is #1 always. I used to pick up Holdsworth solos by ear, and that's a case where tab is really beneficial - The guy will capitalize on every superhuman stretch and exploit symmetry and geometry at every opportunity. Your ears can hear it, and it can be notated, sure, but notation can't capture how it's executed. His REH Video comes with solos tabbed out, and it illustrates his technique and approach in a way that no notation ever could.

Other than that, I agree, tab is sub-optimal. Time to get out the flashcards.

jim_n_virginia

Aug-06-2005, 8:31am

For me tab has it uses AND it's draw backs, while it is true that tab is sorta a crutch that will keep you lazy and not help you to learn notation but at the same time I use it until I AM better at reading notation.

I like tab when I am trying to learn a traditional fiddle tune for instance just the simple melody and then once I get the simple melody under my fingers I can make it my own by adding whatever ornamental lick I want.

I have the Fiddler's Fake Book and I am learning songs off of it one by one but it is PAINFULLY slow! I can learn a song from tab in one afternoon.

But I know the way to sight read faster is to just practice at it more.

hotclub

Aug-06-2005, 9:37am

Musical notation is a written language just like english, french or spanish, with the big advantage of being the only universal written language. If you take the time to learn it, you can sit down and play musical ideas that you've never heard before. You can write down musical ideas that others can play. It makes learnig new tunes so much easier and more accurate. Of course, use your ears, but if you're going to learn to read, don't waste too much time on tab.

Brad Weiss

Aug-06-2005, 10:17am

I feel very ambivalent about this topic- and would love some feedback. #I started 3 years back from total scratch, and worked exclusively with tab - easier to get to playing before learning how to read, I think it can be (or might be?) agreed. #But I worked towards all of the goals John M. addresses. #My practice consists of lots of scales, right hand technique and ear training, and I work especially hard at drilling arpeggios for majors, minors, dom 7, m7, ninths, diminished and augmented chords. So #I am not at ALL averse to theory, and fully grasp the importance of learning the relationship between chord tones, melodies, and improvisational possibilities. I do know the names of the notes I'm playing as well as the "number" on the fretboard. #I can read notation- but the thing is I can't read with ANYTHING like the profficiency with which I can read tab. #So I still tend to tab out most things I play- and when I transcribe solos, which I can manage to do ok (no Coltrane yet, but some Jethro, Grapelli, Stiernberg- even Miles Davis!) I write everything out in tab. I also use tabledit which has a lot of rhythmic notation- you can see the rhythmic feel of a piece in the tab itself, not just by liistening to the midi. #In a way, I feel like I would have been better off learning to read notation right away and bypassing tab altogether, just for the range of stuff in notation not available in tab- but at this point it isn't clear to me that reading IN ITSELF will enahance all of these other goals.

Tell me why I'm wrong!! Please!

arbarnhart

Aug-06-2005, 10:31am

Brad,

I think you are using the hammer in your toolkit appropriately. I think the issue is that some people don't bother with any other tools. Sounds like you have a pretty full set and use them all. Just my opinion.

jmcgann

Aug-06-2005, 11:06am

BradW- i would suggest that you aren't wrong at all. If you are fluent with theory and can look at a measure of tab and convert it to notes so you can see the chord/melody relationships, then I think all you need to know is being communicated by the tab.

My issues against tab are that it only gives you one possibility for a position or fingering (this is even more relevant for guitar, with it's broader range of fingering positions) and that it doesn't communicate the crucial chord/melody relationship (i.e. MUSIC) as well as standard notation does.

If all a player wants to do is "recite" music someone else has played, and doesn't give a hoot about developing improvisational/compositional understanding/ability other than "I'm just gonna go for it", then tab is fine. I think for players who really want unrestricted access to a broader understanding of music (not just on the mandolin, but all and any kind of music), then learning the basics of pitches/chords/scales/rhythms is incredibly helpful.

"But Bill Monroe and Wes Montgomery and all those guys didn't read tab OR notation"!!!
Guess what- neither you nor I are Bill Monroe or Wes Montgomery! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

But in the end, your ear is most crucial piece of the puzzle. IMHO. That's how Bill and Wes did it!

Brad Weiss

Aug-06-2005, 11:23am

Quick point: I strongly agree that the pitfall of tab is seeing it as THE path to fingering , then you're in trouble. I often re-tab pieces to make passages wokr better for me- no need in notation BUT even with notation I often (and have seen others do the same) put little fingering notes over measures so you know where to shift up and down the neck.

Phew! Glad tab is working for me!!

jmcgann

Aug-06-2005, 11:46am

Excellent, Brad! I guess I am addressing the many who read tab from transcription books, and that becomes The Way To Play It, when indeed there may be other/better ways. As a professional transcriber, i have seen many professionally published transcriptions that have many errors- in timing, note choices, chord symbols, etc. in both tab and standard notation.

And unlike you, 99% of tab-only readers cannot read rhythmic notation.

Groveland- I am a big Holdsworth fan, and have that video- I wouldn't trust that the tab is 100% accurate either. Allan is a very idiosyncratic player, and accurate tab would help in understanding how he accomplishes the seemingly impossible lines he plays...but there are passages in the tab that don't line up with where he is on the fingerboard, either, though most of the standard notation of pitches seems close. Have you seen the Japanese transcription books? They are hilariously incorrect.

Here's another way I see it: Tab (only) teaches you to be an instrument operator, as opposed to someone fluent in the language of music as used by musicians for hundreds of years (yeah, i know tab dates back to early lute music, but no one was tabbing for ensembles or orchestras and they still ain't!).

Fluency in reading won't make you a better musician. It will give you a better understanding of how music (away from the mandolin) works. That better understanding can (but doesn't automatically) make you a better player.

It certainly made me a better player- not because I could sight-read, but because I gained a deeper understanding of how the notes I played related to the chord I was playing against. But so did working with a metronome, playing things really slowly, learning stuff by ear off of recordings, thinking long and hard about tone and technique, practicing obsessively, hanging out and playing with much better players than myself, and crawling out of my hole now and again to live life some.

Being a better player doesn't make you a better person (away from the mandolin). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif it just makes you FEEL better.

Martin Jonas

Aug-06-2005, 12:39pm

And unlike you, 99% of tab-only readers cannot read rhythmic notation.
I'm not so sure that is true. Speaking for myself, when I started playing mandolin (not having played any other instrument before), I began with dual standard notation and tab. I knew in theory what all the symbols in the notation meant, but there was no way I could have picked up any sort of fluency in fingering for weeks or even months without having the tab to guide me at the beginning. But, I never used the tab for any rhythmic information at all -- I got that from the notation right away. Indeed, it is still a complete mystery to me how tab-only readers manage to get the rhythm of a piece that they have never heard before.

I found that just having both standard notation and tab in front of me all the time meant that reading fluency in standard notation developed on its own until at one stage I was happy to go tab-free in slower pieces. From then on, playing from the sheet without tab becomes self-reinforcing. Maybe I would have developed reading fluency faster if I'd never used tab at all, but on the other hand maybe I would have found it so frustrating that I wouldn't have persevered. No knowing in restrospect.

Where I am now is that I'm happy to play standard notation on reasonably complex pieces a slow-to-middling tempi, and in ensemble playing where to some extent there is a mutual reinforcing of rhythm. For the past six weeks or so I've been playing once a week with a small classical/romantic mandolin ensemble where all the arrangements are available notation-only. Pieces are called ad hoc from a repertoire of 200-odd arrangements built up by the regulars over the past few decades. For me that means playing parts in completely unfamiliar pieces on first sight until I am reasonably familiar with at least the most popular ones. It's a steep learning curve, and I play more than my share of wrong notes (F# instead of F on the e-string is a favourite), but without doubt it does help. However, when playing fast Irish or Scottish dance tunes, I still find tab-plus-notation essential for any sort of fluency and speed -- it's all about fingering patterns on the triplets, which with tab I can tranlate straight from the page to my fingers, but which with notes goes through my brain which can't keep up. So, I'm not completely through with tab, but I'm slowly weaning myself off.

Martin

jmcgann

Aug-06-2005, 12:51pm

The other thing that is neat is that there is a long standing convention in classical guitar music where the string number appears in a circle under the note, so an E on the A string would have a "2" in a circle. The usual fingering numbers can be used as well- so you get built in tab WITH the standard notation. All bases covered!

My quote about 99% of tab readers being unable to read rhythmic notation (stems and rests) is data gathered from 25 years of teaching and as a hired-gun transcriber, where #customers purchasing tab have actually complained about the rhythmic flags being added ( "Can you just write the tab like in 'Guitar World"! I can hear how it's supposed to go!")

It's not a huge leap of logic to see that understanding how rhythmic notation works could help deepen one's understanding of how to play in time better, melody and accompaniment, especially if that person worked with a metronome some...

Controversial quote from me (flame suit on) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif : Most people would be better off NOT having learned to read tab at all, having to rely on developing their ears. In this day and age, with all the slow-downer gizmos, even the gnarliest playing can be slowed down (at pitch!) to a manageable level. That kind of hard work really does sharpen your overall musicianship WAY more than tab could do.

Can you tell I don't use tab when I teach?

Scott Tichenor

Aug-06-2005, 1:18pm

Mike Marshall and I, among others, are hoping to lead people away from (exclusive) tab reading.Here's Why (http://www.johnmcgann.com/tab.html)

Ears are #1, reading ability #2. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
Then should we assume you and Mike are leading by example and that's why four of Mike's recent five books include tablature, and that three of your most recent ones also do?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Please! I'm not here to defend tablature or to start an argument. Just having some fun. I actually agree it'd be best if everyone read standard. I stopped using tab years ago. So far, to my knowledge, the Real Books don't exist anywhere in mandolin tablature.

groveland

Aug-06-2005, 1:28pm

Thanks, John. Even though I don't use tab, your article and these posts have motivated me to improve my sightreading skills.

jmcgann

Aug-06-2005, 1:29pm

Mel Bay asked "do you want to sell any books?" . I had only one answer :cool:

I asked "who can sell more- me with no tab or Mel Bay with tab?" :cool:

I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Actually, part of my quest will be to make a free .pdf download of my 1990 "Tab Reader's Guide to Standard Notation" that I hope will circulate and folks will share and make use of. I was charging $14.95, it was printed years before the Mel Bay stuff. #The first pressing sold out and now I think the idea is worth getting out there for anyone interested. I can continue to rake it the incredibly huge royalties on the other three books to support myself http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif

However, I will not refund 50% of the other books just because you don't need tab anymore #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

groveland

Aug-06-2005, 1:29pm

the Real Books don't exist anywhere in mandolin tablature
$$$Hmmmm...

SternART

Aug-06-2005, 1:40pm

I like tab.....good idea Groveland.

JimD

Aug-06-2005, 3:07pm

If all a player wants to do is "recite" music someone else has played, and doesn't give a hoot about developing improvisational/compositional understanding/ability other than "I'm just gonna go for it", then tab is fine. I think for players who really want unrestricted access to a broader understanding of music (not just on the mandolin, but all and any kind of music), then learning the basics of pitches/chords/scales/rhythms is incredibly helpful.

I agree with John -- especially with the above quote.

It is true, though, what he says about the publishing world. When I was writing my book, I was told that every chapter had to include tab. I objected on philosophical and pedagogical grounds especially regarding the chapter on note reading. How is the student supposed to learn to read notes when the tab is right there underneath?

Well, I was overruled (or was that "threatened"...) Anyway, I gave in but have never been happy with the decision. I believe that the book would have been better without it. Arbitrary decisions to delete material in order to make space for tab etc.-- not to mention the pedagogical idiocy of having tab in a section on note reading has made me "less than satified" with the results of my own efforts.

With my own students, I'll resort to taping over the tab so that they'll actually learn to read the notes.

This is the situation that we are stuck with at this point: the big publishers won't touch anything that doesn't have tab because they are afraid that nobody will buy it. Many of us who are writing these books have to decide between making more sales and having the "prestigious name" of the publisher or on the other hand, writing the book in the way we know (from long experience) to be the best.

Bottom line: There are only so many hours in the day -- your time is better spent on training your ears and developing your ability to read notes. Don't waste your time on tab.

bluesmandolinman

Aug-06-2005, 3:25pm

publisher´s ( including the authors ) should be happy that there is TAB because otherwise they would sell less copies . Point !
Many people just want to play some music and have some fun and that without getting into studying music theory. TAB does very well for me. And therefore I am glad that an author was "threatened" by the publisher to include TAB in his book.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

JimD

Aug-06-2005, 5:04pm

You miss the point.

In the section on NOTE READING, I was made to include tab. I hope you can understand the idiocy of this situation.

I understand that some people just want to have fun and play some music -- but there are also people who want to learn to be well-rounded musicians. These folks are ill-served by the ubiquity of tab.

groveland

Aug-06-2005, 6:40pm

So if we're serious about music, it's got to be notation. If we're serious about the mechanics of a particular piece, (like my Holdsworth example) tab can help. But for music, tab is no substitute for notation.

<thought type='attempt at cleverness'>Don't they inject stuff into trees to get them to grow faster so they can harvest them more quickly? The trees look fine from a distance, but the depth of grain isn't there, it isn't as rich and detailed and the strength isn't equal to those raised the expensive, time-consuming, traditional way. </thought>

I think you mainly want a quick harvest if you're building something with 2x4's, right? But I'm not sure you want that same wood for furniture.

billkilpatrick

Aug-06-2005, 9:05pm

i can read music but it takes forever. i like tabs because it's closer to the original method of learning: watching where someone puts their fingers and taking it from there.

there are those who consciously use their brains to play and there are others - like me - who don't. i'd like to think it was zen awareness but it's probably more like knowing my limitations.

i don't know how cerebrial a player he is but i just read a wonderful haiku by fatt-dad to the effect that his fingers fly along in the dark without anyone being able to see. i'm like that - the more in the dark i am (so to speak) the better i seem to play.

- bill

groveland

Aug-06-2005, 9:37pm

it's closer to the original method of learning
We can't tab out a vocal part. Not to be splitting hairs: Tab is about mechanics and is instrument-specific. Notation serves music and it's instrument-agnostic. If a deeper understanding of music is the goal, notation will serve us better than tab in the musical long-run.

Martin Jonas

Aug-06-2005, 9:50pm

Bill, that is close to what I was trying to say above -- much of the fluency in playing music (at least tradition-based dance tunes) comes when you bypass the conscious brain. Translating standard notation into finger movement is a more computationally intense process than translating tablature, so it's easier to get to that bypassing stage when reading tab than when reading standard notation. Trad tunes are really all about fingering patterns and rhythmic awareness; I don't see that the dots add much there. It's different for classical music, where there is much less periodicity and more need for relying on a written score.

I think one element in this particular discussion is that the teachers' perspective is different from the learners' perspective. I can see that (over)reliance on tabs is immensely frustrating for a teacher; I also think that it is counterproductive in face-to-face lessons between teacher and student. However, I don't think that's necessarily so in situations where there is no flesh-and-blood teacher and I think that's where tab come into their own if used intelligently, i.e. in tandem with working on understanding the same concepts in standard notation.

Martin

glauber

Aug-06-2005, 10:26pm

Controversial quote from me (flame suit on) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif : Most people would be better off NOT having learned to read tab at all, having to rely on developing their ears. In this day and age, with all the slow-downer gizmos, even the gnarliest playing can be slowed down (at pitch!) to a manageable level. That kind of hard work really does sharpen your overall musicianship WAY more than tab could do.
Tab irritates me because i don't necessarily agree with the way it wants me to finger things. There are many ways to finger melodies, and this should be a personal choice, not dictated by the tab.

I agree learning by ear is important, but musical notation is important too, as a preservation tool. Before recording was invented, it was the only preservation tool for music; even now, it's often still more convenient than recording. It is the true written language of music, as opposed to tab, which preserves one musician's interpretation, and is instrument-specific. This is a nice parallel with oral transmission of stories versus writing them down in books: both are needed.

glauber

Aug-06-2005, 10:32pm

Bill, that is close to what I was trying to say above -- much of the fluency in playing music (at least tradition-based dance tunes) comes when you bypass the conscious brain. Translating standard notation into finger movement is a more computationally intense process than translating tablature, so it's easier to get to that bypassing stage when reading tab than when reading standard notation. Trad tunes are really all about fingering patterns and rhythmic awareness; I don't see that the dots add much there. It's different for classical music, where there is much less periodicity and more need for relying on a written score.
This is not necessarily true. The learning curve is probably steeper, but when you read music, you don't have to stop and think what you are going to do with your fingers; it's automatic. A good music reader can play a piece he or she has never seen before, and do it fluidly. Keyboard players are especially amazing in this regard; wind players too.

John Ritchhart

Aug-07-2005, 2:25am

Since Scott brought up the subject of "tab floats" I'd just like to say that I much prefer Coke Light.

JimD

Aug-07-2005, 7:03am

Regardless of the stated justifications, most of the opinions in favor of tab seem to have the underlying misconception that it is easier than learning notation.

This is not true. What is gained in "ease of learning" is balanced by a loss in some other area.

1. rhythmic accuracy (even when rhythm is indicated in tab, it is imperfectly done)

2. universality (tab is instrument specific -- standard notation is functional regardless of instrument)

3. application to understanding music (scales, chords etc. are understood most easily and completely through notation and the ears)

There is nothing that is really that difficult about learning to read music. In fact, for most styles of mandolin playing, the difficulties are far less than what a pianist or a classical guitarist would have to deal with.

For the most part, mandolinists are dealing with single line melodies and with intervals or chords on adjacent strings. How often do we have to play two or more melodies simultaneously? In some styles, even the number of different keys is limited. (Example: most Irish music is in D or G major and their modes -- you really only have to be fluent in one or two sharps)

Even the more complex issues of reading classical and duo-style mandolin pieces does not begin to approach the difficulty of reading piano or most classical guitar music.

Please set aside your misconception that this is a difficult thing. Those of us who do read music fluently are not any more intelligent than those who don't.

gnelson651

Aug-07-2005, 3:38pm

I wanted to wait on some of the responses before I weighed in. If you read John's article, I'm quoted at the bottom as glad I took the time to learn standard notation. And I still am because #it has made me a better and improved musician after experiencing years of limitations with tablature.

That being said, I have found that there are competing philosophies (or more appropriately camps) in regard to tab vs. standard. Much like liberals vs. conservatives, I doubt there will be any resolution and fewer converts.

Tab people are entrenched in tab with the "I don't need no stinking notation" to learn to play. And although tab was before notation, I look at most of the few mandolin instruction books published before the last '70's and noted that they use standard notation only, there is no tab, and usually the first or second chapter is how to read standard notation. This is probably because most of the writers of these books were classical trained.

I believe society has changed in the last few decades with an "I have to have it NOW" mentality. Tab offers an immediate gratification in that you can learn a song without having gone through the trials of learning notation. Writers/publishers sensed this change and started offering books with tab.

I agree with JimD in his fine arguments on the difference of tab vs. standard notation. Yes, learning to play by ear is an essential ingredient to learning music. Tab was the first attempt to write down a song for posterity, yet had its limitations. Standard notation is the next stage as a more advanced and more universal language.

If you want to advance as a musician then learning standard notation is a requirement. You can’t get into any #high school or university music program without it!

Glenn Nelson
Las Vegas, NV

Martin Jonas

Aug-07-2005, 6:12pm

This is not necessarily true. The learning curve is probably steeper, but when you read music, you don't have to stop and think what you are going to do with your fingers; it's automatic. A good music reader can play a piece he or she has never seen before, and do it fluidly. Keyboard players are especially amazing in this regard; wind players too.
No arguments from me on any of that. If you look through the bit I quoted, you'll find it says much the same as you did about achieving reading fluency, and that I was specifically referring to traditional dance tunes (which are arguably poorly described by standard notation in any case -- traditional Irish musicians get VERY irritated when proficient classically-trained musicians play tunes exactly as notated).

I will now drop out of this discussion, as I feel myself being misrepresented as some sort of defender of tab-reading, when in fact I'm not -- as I said in my earlier posts, I have never relied solely on tab and am now a fairly fluent sight-reader in standard notation.

Martin

mandocrucian

Aug-07-2005, 8:43pm

I think some of you are being overly harsh regarding tablature.

When it is boiled down to basics, tab is essentially a way to input data and/or functionally becomes "external memory", as is standard western notation, various vocal mnemonic systems (sol-feg, Indian ta-ka-di-mi, Scottish pibroch vocalizations), abc code, etc. etc, recorded discs, midi-files ....

There's a difference between "repertoire" collections (Real Book, O'Neil's) and instructional material, especially instructional for a specific instrument (which includes transcription collections). A Hendrix book should have tablature (in addition to standard notation) to clarify the particular positioning that was used to get those pitch sequences. The criticism that tab points you to a specific way of playing the passage rather than being neutral as to positioning/fingering doesn't hold up; there are plenty of different ways to play a note sequence, and each may give a different tonal sound or phrasing, and if the book is supposed to demonstrate Santana's approach, then give me #something as close to the way he played it as possible. #BTW: This is not a defense of innaccurate transcribing, which can include innacurate pitch, or accurate pitch but sloppily located (notating in open when it's clearly up the neck positioning, or working up and down the neck).

Accurate tablature can clarify things that notation has a harder time doing.

But instructionally: Perhaps the purpose of the etude/drill/exercise is to play that particular sequence in a particular way, demonstrating a particular technical/mechanical aspect. If the student plays it in an "obvious" open position instead, it can negate the whole point of the exercise! And if I want to highlight the difference between results of different position of phrasing, I'll just run two or three staves of tab with different solutions under the notational staff.

*Tablature should use rhythmic stems/flags just as standard notation does, and my tablature always included rhythmic information. I suppose leaving out the rhythm aspect to tab is permissable when it is in tandem with a notation staff which provides that data; but it is preferable (imo) that both have the rhythms.

As far as notation being clearer regarding pitch relationships than tab, I don't know that that is really true. I don't think it has anything to do with tab, but some tab readers' lack of association to the tab number/string and the "name" of the pitch. If someone doesn't recognize a 4 on the D-string as an F#, it's not the fault of "tab", but either ignorance and/or laziness on the part of student and/or instructor to "map" the pitches on the instrument. #(I think it would be possible to teach someone to read notation in terms of string/fret positions and bypass any pitch name correlations, but that's counter to the way that system has evolved. Perhaps when tab was the formal notation of the Renaissance, it too had the pitch associations as an integral part of the instruction)

I'm not anti-notation in the least. I think students should learn to read, and I don't think reading is really that difficult. It's just a symbological representation of pitch names, same as tab for the particular instrument, sol-feg etc. Being able to correlate pitch names to fret locations (or horn fingerings etc). #I think folks should to read standard notation. #I also think they should become familiar with drumkit notation (and do percussion/drumming exercises), and sol-feg and/or other mnemonic vocalization systems.

But some folks will tune out vocalization drills, wrist stretches, or theory, or mental association rewiring exercises, or "whatever" that they perceive as being too flakey, irrelevant, boring, troublesome for their current goals in music. "Gimme a dozen hot licks to go!" You can put it out there, and if they want to pass on your recommendations, well, do your thing. There are people who can read standard notation that will tune out a lot of useful stuff too. ("I don't need ear training, I can sight read!")

Maybe somewhere down the road, you'll have tab readers decide they want an expanded horizon. Well, at least tab got them far enough along to the point where they're ready to try other things. Some will do 180 and become anti-tab and say it held them back all those years and become notation only proponents. #That's kind of like someone turning around and blaming alcohol for wasted years because they enjoyed it too much at the time and now prefer that nobody imbibes.

Actually, the storage medium that has the greatest possibility is the digital midi-file. This is truly cross platform and internationally so. There are Asian musics which use their own indigenous form of notation or tab, and there are other traditions which are completely oral, but once something is encoded as midi, it can be reassembled in whatever form of tab/notation/system is what you utilize.

Niles Hokkanen

glauber

Aug-07-2005, 9:24pm

Martin Jonas

Aug-08-2005, 4:55am

Sorry, man. I didn't mean to be rude.
Glauber -- I was a bit thinskinned last night, and the last bit of my message was not primarily adressed towards you in any case. My apologies for over-reacting.

Martin

billkilpatrick

Aug-08-2005, 5:27am

... and in conclusion ...

there's no question that notation is a broader, more comprehensive method of presenting and understanding music. #i'm pushing 60, however, and while i may take notation on board at a later date, i have to say the reason i veered towards tabs in the first place was that i get it ... now.

creaky - bill

OdnamNool

Aug-08-2005, 5:45am

And if I want to highlight the difference between results of different position of phrasing, I'll just run two or three staves of tab with different solutions under the notational staff.
Is there any chance you can show us this here? I would like to understand tab but, looking at some of your replys, Niles, it is like reading a foreign language. For example, things that look like this: /4//2/5-5-//...etc. (That example is completely made up, but you get the idea...)

Well, I don't think we can pop up a staff here at the Cafe, and stick notes on it...So... How 'bout tabbin' out the first phrase of, say... "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star"?

Or should I start another thread for this? Hah. I'll never understand internet-protocol...

JimD

Aug-08-2005, 6:21am

As far as notation being clearer regarding pitch relationships than tab, I don't know that that is really true. I don't think it has anything to do with tab, but some tab readers' lack of association to the tab number/string and the "name" of the pitch. If someone doesn't recognize a 4 on the D-string as an F#, it's not the fault of "tab", but either ignorance and/or laziness on the part of student and/or instructor to "map" the pitches on the instrument.

The problem isn't the location of pitches but the relationships between them. Sure they can probably tell you that 4 on the D string is F# -- but they shouldn't call it "F#" when the harmony is Eb minor. I still maintain that the relationships of the pitches make much more sense in standard notation.

mandocrucian

Aug-08-2005, 7:59am

The problem isn't the location of pitches but the relationships between them. #Sure they can probably tell you that 4 on the D string is F# #-- but they shouldn't #call it "F#" when the harmony is Eb minor. I still maintain that the relationships of the pitches make much more sense in standard notation.

Well, I wasn't going to get into the enharmonic equivalents, but of course that's the case. When they start playing in Eb minor, then they need to input the notes of that scale into their associative memory. However, until they start using flat keys, I don't think it's much of an issue; you add in new data (or alternative names) when there's a need or reason to do so.

<span style='font-family:courier'>D
|===============|====================
|========0===0==|==2===2===0==============
|==0==0=========|======================
|===============|======================
| #d # d #a #a# # #b # b # a
| #do do so #so ## la #la # so
|===============|=====================
|===============|=====================
|========7===7==|==9===9===7==========
|==7==7=========|=====================
|
|===============|=====================
|===============|=====================
|==0==0==7===7==|==9===9===7==========
|===============|=====================
|
|===============|=====================
|========0===0==|==========0==========
|==0============|==9===9==============
|======7========|=====================

A # # # # # # # # # # # # # #Bb
==============|============||==============|====== ===========
==============|============||==============|====== ==========
========2==2==|=4==4==0====||========3==3==|==5=== 5===3=======
==2==2========|============||==3==3========|====== ============

etc.</span>

do=1, so=p5, la=maj6

Niles H

bsimmers

Aug-08-2005, 8:17am

PLEASE READ THIS:
My experience:
I bought my first mandolin when I was 21, hadn't played anything before, and new to bluegrass. I connected with several jam sessions that had some good mandolin pickers who were very willing to teach me. I also took a couple lessons from a local teacher. No progress. After about a year, I quit. I tried bass. I tried guitar. Went back to mandolin, back to bass, back to guitar. Bored yet?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
When I was 29 and totally fed up with well-intended musicians who had no use for tab, I ignored them all and bought LOTS of Harold Streeter tab, Jack Tottle's book(I did not use the record), Mel Bay's Deluxe Bluegrass Mandolin(Ray Valla), a couple Niles books, and a metronome. I spent at least 3 hrs a night in the laundry room learning songs that I'd never heard of. After about 18 months I could play about 80 songs up to speed with other musicians.
At age 36 I took about 12 lessons from Ron Pennington and really learned a lot about improvising, using different chords, and playing by ear. Also, what works, what doesn't, and why. A SUPER TEACHER!
I'm 46 now, and have a long way to go, but I'm playing part time in 4 different bands and have recorded one project, with 2 more in process.
My point: USE WHAT WORKS!!!! I really wish I would have had the ability to learn stuff without tab, but I didn't. For some people, the Murphy method may work. I needed tab, and it's the only thing that was any help at all. I never tell any new pickers, "tab is the only way" or "learning by ear is the best way." We're all different. USE WHAT WORKS!!!

JimD

Aug-08-2005, 9:10am

Well, I wasn't going to get into the enharmonic equivalents, but of course that's the case. When they start playing in Eb minor, then they need to input the notes of that scale into their associative memory. However, until they start using flat keys, I don't think it's much of an issue; you add in new data (or alternative names) when there's a need or reason to do so.

What you often end up with is people that can't understand why it suddenly gets "more complicated" now that they are in the flat keys. Or you get folks who will spell an F scale -- F G A A# C D E F.

A similar issue is the misunderstanding that (for example) E phrygian is "really in the key of C". No it isn't, it's in the key of E Phrygian. It just shares a key signature with C -- but try breaking through that misconception when it is ingrained in someone's thinking.

In a similar vein, so many people are taught that in a meter signature the top number gets "one beat" that they can't get around to the concept that for most 6/8 pieces there are only two beats in a measure.

I guess I would rather that the concepts are clearly taught from the beginning without gaps so that I wouldn't end up with so many otherwise bright and talented musicians in my remedial theory classes (yes, you would be surprised at how many conservatory students fail the theory placements)

Mark Robertson-Tessi

Aug-08-2005, 11:50am

Jim,

Funny how people trained in theory get used to certain things too. Your F-Scale reminds me of a guy I play with, good player but never took a lesson. He writes very tonal 1-4-5 stuff, with some mild quirks. He wrote out a chord chart in F once: F / F / A# / F / A# / A# / C etc.

At first I glanced at his sheet and thought, man, what weird chromatic song has he gotten into? Then he played it through and I figured out what happened in my head. It was just interesting how it was completely natural for him to write out A#'s. My theory bkgd choked on it for a second...

Cheers,
Mark R-T

otterly2k

Aug-08-2005, 1:17pm

I don't use tab much these days, but early on in my learning guitar (when I was a kid), it was helpful to me. It exposed me to picking patterns, and the use of open tunings...each of which (once introduced) I took and ran with... I don't think I could have done that with regular notation at the time...standard notation sits easily on a piano keyboard, or to a melodic instrument like flute, but the shapes of it (to me) don't translate that well to guitar. Tab shapes, on the other hand, made perfect sense.

I never did master regular notation on guitar, but instead developed my ear and learn mostly by listening. I use sheet music on mando just to remind me of which tune it is, and occasionally if something recorded is moving so fast I need help figuring out a riff. But I still mostly play by ear. I find both forms of visual input slow me down. Simple repetition and close listening work better for me.

But to overuse the toolbox metaphor...it's just one tool. Truly, there are many in the box. Over-reliance on any one tool can shut us down to the possibilities opened up by other ones. And sure, there are tools that are better designed for broader use, and others for more specific uses. But ultimately the best tool for the job depends on the tool, the job, AND the user. If I have a strong arm/good ear, I may not need the power tool of tablature.

Joe F

Aug-08-2005, 3:13pm

I have been playing mandolin on and off for over 20 years, and all my instructors have used tab to teach me new tunes. #I have a pretty hefty 3-ring binder full of bluegrass and fiddle tunes written out in tab.

Over the past couple of years, since I've started to get fairly serious about my playing, I've come to regard tab as simply a tool to learn a lot of tunes quickly. #I play many of those tunes in area jam sessions (often adding improvisations and variations to the written version), and the more I play, the easier it's become for me to pick up new tunes by ear. #So I guess I regard tab as a stepping stone towards learning how to create music, not simply to play a given set of notes. #I use it a lot less now that I used to.

I can't sight-read notation, but I know just enough theory to translate notation (such as in the Fiddler's Fakebook) to tab. #I do want to learn to read someday, but like everything else, finding the time is a major factor.

jmcgann

Aug-08-2005, 5:16pm

thistle3585

Aug-09-2005, 10:46am

I can't read and then play tab without the standard notation above it. The notation helps me identify the melody. I can read tab, and hear the notes in my head, but again I don't hear the melody. I do use tab when transcribing or writing. I can't write notation at all, and when I do transcribe or write, it is quicker and easier to do it in tab. So, I guess I'm caught between the two.

John, how do you transcribe or write? Notation, tab, chicken scratches?

mandocrucian

Aug-09-2005, 11:34am

If you can read notation, and you know how music is constructed, you can look at a piece with chord symbols above it and SEE how those notes are gonna sound against the chord (with enough ear training, you know how any note sounds against any chord). Tab will NOT do that for you unless you are able to convert the fret number to a pitch- which of course you can, but it's extra work.

No, it's not really any extra work in comparison to notation - it's really just the same amount of work that you have to do playing from notation. It's just the order of conversion/processing is different. It will only seem like extra work if the tab reader always bypassed the note-naming process. It's no more difficult than it is to initially learn the notation/note naming process. Of course if someone is playing from tab, that initial translation "hump" may seem to be bothersome if they don't want to spend the time to get their linguistic mind (intellect) caught up with the digital/mechanical.

Analogy:
Notation: 4 + 3 = 7
Tab: 3 + 4 = 7
you still end up with 7 regardless of the sequence

Notation:
1. convert line or space to note name
2. convert note name to string/fret on mandolin
3. play the note

Tablature:
1. read string/fret tab
2. play note

Tablature:
1. read string/fret tab
2. convert tab to note name
3. play note

Notation:
1. convert pitch to note name or sol-feg pitch relationship
2. Hear tone in head
3. Convert mental sound into physical sound through voice and/or fingers

Tablature:
1. convert tab to note name or sol-feg pitch relationship
2. Hear tone in head
3. Convert mental sound into physical sound through voice and/or fingers

The more pathways and routes the brain can use to process info, the more versatile the brain becomes. So, imo, abilty to use both notation and tablature creates more neural wiring than either alone. Add vocalizations to the process and you burn in additional processing routes and memory. Add kinetics (foot percussion e.g.) for more processing capabilites. #Burn associations by pairing up or tripling any of the factors, which can even mean omitting the instrument.

Someone said you can't tab out a vocal line.... Not true, Tab is a form of symbological representation of the pitch sound, just as standard notation is. The difference is that the tablature is decoded on a particular instrument; someone who has played that instrument long enough can probably sight sing from the tablature becuase of the visual/sonic associations created by playing the instrument.

NH

fatt-dad

Aug-09-2005, 11:34am

Hello. My name is fatt-dad and I use tab. I know full-well that notation is "better", but I still like tab. It is a simplification that serves as an aid to ear training. It also is just easy - more accessible to my leasurly (sp) play. I have found great scale exercizes in tab (thanks jazzmando, 'cafe tablature, mandozine.com, alltabs.com, etc.). I sing in the choir (from real music) and really do appreciate the connection between musical ability and singing. I just don't have any desire to learn standard notation on the mandolin.

Am I just too lazy?

f-d

jmcgann

Aug-09-2005, 11:55am

John, how do you transcribe or write? #Notation, tab, chicken scratches?

If writing something out for myself, standard only.
If paid to write for someone else, however they want it!
No chicken scratches. i am a stickler for legibility!

Niles- we'll have to agree to disagree. Most tab readers DON'T know the pitches, CAN'T spell the notes in a chord, CAN'T read rhythmic notation,and many of them DON"T want to deal with ANY of that, in my teaching travels anyway, because their only experience with written music or theory is via tab...that doesn't neccessarily mean they aren't good players.

I agree with your idea that the more ways to learn, the better...it's just that most tab readers do not make the 360 degrees of the circle. Again, it doesn't make them better or worse as players to read or not read- if you have bad time, reading by itself won't help much. It's just a good overall skill to have and to help you possess deeper understanding of chord melody relationship, chord construction, theory etc. (beating the dead horse now) that tab doesn't do without mental gymnastics that standard notation knowledge allows you to avoid (isn't music complex enough by itself!?!)

Tab only readers usually are the rock guys and acoustic roots players, almost never are they jazz players. Interesting, isn't it? The more complex harmonic concepts in jazz are much better represented by notation, because you see what notes work against what chord. Of course, you have to HEAR it too, but it is great to ride the subway, look at a Coleman Hawkins or (your jazz hero here) transcription, and mentally sight-sing the lines and see how they sound against the chord. I am not going to do that with tab!

Hog on Ice

Aug-09-2005, 12:01pm

"Notation is easy to learn"

So why am I having such a hard time learning it? If I already know a tune, notation will help me play it sooner, but I can't any more sight read an unfamiliar piece than I can read and understand Arabic calligraphy. This may be a topic for a new thread, but what are some methods and/or exercises that will improve my reading skills?

Most of us learned to read written English by starting with simple text ("see Spot run"), then moving up through Dr. Seuss to Dostoevsky and unix administrator manuals. Will I have to do the same thing to learn standard notation? Is there a shortcut (or at least something as entertaining as "The Cat in the Hat" or Harry Potter?

c~

jmcgann

Aug-09-2005, 12:26pm

Hi Carl-

I usually have people start with just the open string pitches, then add the notes of the C scale to each string. I'd stay in 1st position until it seems ingrained.

Use the old Every Good Boy Does Fine (EGBDF) for the lines on the staff low to hign. The inner spaces are FACE low to high. Work up to B (one ledger line above staff) and down to G (two lines below the staff).

Sit down, write a bunch of random notes, then find 'em. Say the name before playing. Stick to the white keys only the 1st week, then start with accidentals (sharps and flats).

By the end of the 2nd week, should be be able to read and name any pitch within the 1st 7 frets on all 4 strings.

A good book for learning to read rhythms is Robert Starer's Rhythmic Training.

====

The key to reading is to just do it- every day. Just like the key to playing an instrument!

acousticphd

Aug-09-2005, 1:01pm

I'm too lazy to boil it down like fatt-dad.

I read music, but at least as far as my mandolin and guitar playing, actually playing something in real time right from the written page (TAB or std) is almost out of the question. I use both TAB and std music notation as a learning resource when I have no audio source or need some help figuring out something I've heard, but can't recall.

My opinion of TAB is that my ears still work still as good with it as without it. I don't think TAB should necessarily limit anyone's learning by ear, though that's something all musicians have to work at. By the same token, standard musical notation, simply by virtue of it's intricateness and musical completeness, doesn't necessarily "open up" one's ears or understanding of the feeling a particular tune.

A comment I had is that it would seem so obvious (except for requiring extra paper and ink) for mandolin and guitar teaching materials to write out the same selections in both standard AND TAB notations, on parallel music staffs, to help teach the relationship between the two. If students could see scales and chord triads and arpeggios written out both ways, I think they would "get" it much quicker. It sounds like there are a few examples of this, but the only one I ever came across was the music book accompanying Todd Phillip's "In the Pines" CD (which included both std music and TAB'd solos by musicians like Scott Nygard, Mike Marshall, John Reischman, and others). Well, I can think of a reason after all - because the music teachers or editors are for one reason or another biased toward one notation or the other.

I also have a couple of mild objections to some earlier comments. I do support learning to read music, but standard notation is NOT completely instrument-agnostic. There are numerous differences in the way music is written out for different instruments. In addition, it is common for stringed instrument music to include various notes on position and fingerings, which are fairly irrelevant for the voice or keyboard or wind musician. TAB does make this step more instructive (but it's still optional!). And, I think many of us can relate to the disappointment of buying a music book full of popular guitar-based songs, and finding them arranged in virtually unplayable "piano" keys like Eb and Ab - a situation where standard notation hardly "serves the music".

Also, John and a few others seem to be suggesting that in using TAB, the musician is essentially, and necessarily "deaf" as they look at the piece - that the finger/fret positions cannot convey anything about the relationship between the note and the chord or scale as in regular notation. This just isn't true (and I think you know better). When I look at TAB, as when I look at std notation, I can and do "hear" the music, and recognize the chord tones, even without playing and no sound. I can and do (though sometimes with a little difficulty) hum a melody as I follow the TAB - something which again one simply coudn't do if mandolin TAB was really mandolin-specific notation. It's true that this is probably made easier by having had some basic theory.

What I do agree with is that everyone who has the chance should be encouraged to get into and learn music, at any age. This was a lifetime gift my parents gave me that is still giving - getting me into school band in 4th grade, and at least getting me started on a rudimentary music education (plus ensuring my fate as a band dork up through high school.) Formal training aside, I think that notation can be, and should mainly be, a means of translating something initially new and unfamiliar to our musical senses - meaning the ears, the fingers, the brain. Once we have some input laid down, we can begin to ingrain and recite it, or begin to explore and expand on it, or anything in between.

JimD

Aug-09-2005, 1:19pm

If I already know a tune, notation will help me play it sooner, but I can't any more sight read an unfamiliar piece than I can read and understand Arabic calligraphy

At the risk of overstating the obvious -- NOTE reading and SIGHT reading are two different skills -- related, to be sure, but different.

To read notes, you need to be able to translate the symbol to a name and location on the instrument in the proper rhythm.

To SIGHT read, you need to be able to do it all in real time.

Sightreading can be improved by isolating (in the practice session) the elements such as rhythm (use studies in the Starer book that John mentioned) and drilling them until more and more rhythmic figures become like old friends. You are actually then recognizing and executing a figure rather than a string of rhythmic values.

Knowledge of theory helps -- if you recognize chunks (arpeggiated chords etc.) and can name them, you'll be able to "take in" more information at a time by sight. For example -- if you see the following notes (in notation. of course):

C G Eb D C F Bb D F A C

You might recoginize C G Eb as being a C minor triad, then a passing tone d to C, stacked 4ths-- C F Bb and then a Bb major 9th chord -- Bb D F A C.

By knowing these chunks you cut down some of the "note to note" reading that hangs many folks up when sight reading. In this case, any additional knowledge begins to pay off right away.

Knowledge of the style you are reading can help enormously -- you can get to the point where you can almost guess where the compooser is going.

I do quite a bit of sight reading in small ensemble, orchestra and theater pit gigs. You would be amazed at what can affect sightreading ability -- forgeting your reading glasses (oh yes, I've done that), bad lighting, bad orientation of music stand to instrument, worrying about whether the trombone slide or cello bow (in a tight theater pit) is going to ding your instrument, indigestion (watch what you eat if you are under pressure to sightread well), and just your typical bad mood... All of these and others can adversely affect your ability to sightread.

So -- practice much, bring your glasses, use good lighting, meditate and change your diet. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

fatt-dad

Aug-09-2005, 1:30pm

What I do agree with is that everyone who has the chance should be encouraged to get into and learn music, at any age. #This was a lifetime gift my parents gave me that is still giving - getting me into school band in 4th grade, and at least getting me started on a rudimentary music education (plus ensuring my fate as a band dork up through high school.) #Formal training aside, I think that notation can be, and should mainly be, a means of translating something initially new and unfamiliar to our musical senses - meaning the ears, the fingers, the brain. #Once we have some input laid down, we can begin to ingrain and recite it, or begin to explore and expand on it, or anything in between.
Amen! This is what it is all about. This discusion to tribal folks (if we could translate it) would be comic. There is a human pulse of music that has to be nurtured. Who cares whether we teach in shape notes, tab, standard notation, or by ear. At least (to those exposed to music) the drive to learn is there - and that is what matters.

fatt school-band-in-4th-grade-too dad

jmcgann

Aug-09-2005, 1:35pm

Also, John and a few others seem to be suggesting that in using TAB, the musician is essentially, and necessarily "deaf" as they look at the piece - that the finger/fret positions cannot convey anything about the relationship between the note and the chord or scale as in regular notation. #This just isn't true (and I think you know better).

(sigh) No, I don't think the tab reader is "deaf" but I will bet the tab-only reader's ear training skills are less developed than those of a good standard notation reader. Tab #is good for one thing- to show you where notes are played on your instrument. Can you look at mando tab and read those notes (at pitch) on guitar or piano? I thought not. Can you sightread/sing me the notes to a tab transcription you haven't already heard? If you can, you are further along the ear training path than 99.9% of tab readers I've encountered.

My point (again) is that IF the tab reader doesn't know the language of chord construction, etc. bla bla bla (and most of them don't want to know!) then they are missing a lot of information that could be potentially helpful in their development.

I don't really care if every mandolin/guitar player on earth disagrees with this and insists on sticking to tab forever. I am just sharing a point of view that many musicians (who can read) agree with and many (who can or can't read) disagree with. Few who can read standard notation fluently will go back to tab-only reading.

This is my experience in 25 years of private (and public) teaching. Maybe I just happened to have the world's most reluctant tab readers, but somehow I think I experienced a representative sampling...

Someone could conduct a poll and see how many acknowledged master musicians on guitar and mandolin came up learning from tab (banjo is exempt because the instrument and players are, um, idiosyncratic http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif ) ...I'd imagine you'd find almost all of them were learning by ear, and if any notation was involved, it was standard rather than tab. Just my guess...

EAR and SOUL (and TONE and TIME) over everything else, 'cause everything else don't add up to squat without the first four.

bsimmers

Aug-09-2005, 1:42pm

Wow! All this to use, or not use tab. Use what works! And don't make yourself miserable. Make sure the music stays fun. But keep pickin! It's worth the effort. And get some of Niles' books if you think a deeper understanding will help.

mandocrucian

Aug-09-2005, 1:57pm

Niles- we'll have to agree to disagree. Most tab readers DON'T know the pitches, CAN'T spell the notes in a chord, CAN'T read rhythmic notation,and many of them DON"T want to deal with ANY of that, in my teaching travels anyway, because their only experience with written music or theory is via tab...that doesn't neccessarily mean they aren't good players.

John, there are two different issues here, 1) tablature itself, and 2) people who use (or abuse) tablature as their favored format. My comments have been on the issue of tablature in and of itself and that it is useful and valid. Is it the complete answer? No. But neither is standard notation. There's a whole lot to be said in favor for the S Asian (India) and African systems of teaching a year or two via vocal mnemonics before even giving a student an instrument. I don't think I'm in the middle of the notation vs. tab debate, but rather off to the side with a third viewpoint.

As far as players who lack, what is called at the karate studio, the "teachable spirit", that isn't news to me. But I don't hold tablature in itself as being responsible for their lack of receptivity to anything they should learn, but refuse to even give a chance. You can try to input data in a fairly painless way through vocal drills, and they'll tune it out. You can try to point out the mechanical problems (high tension instrument positioning/posture, crimped wrists, breath holding etc.) and how they might remedy those, and they you for resent it, as if it's any different than the car mechanic telling them, "You need new brakes, and should get a tune-up." #Instead of showing them "5 instant flashy trash licks", you try to help them understand some basic underlying concepts with which they can eventually create hundreds of their own licks and they get p.o.ed cause you're trying to give them what they need, not want they want. ("You cain't always get what you wah-aant... in the words of Sir Mick)

If you've someone who is going to resist even singing the names of a one-octave G major scale while it's being played, or vocalizing a simple tune using a rhythmic count pattern, it's going to be a miracle if you and Mike M. are going to being able to "lead" them towards standard notation. If you can do it, I'll second your nomination for sainthood.

Niles H

acousticphd

Aug-09-2005, 2:04pm

Hog on Ice

Aug-09-2005, 2:06pm

Well, I guess there's no quick fix. It all comes back to practice, practice, and practice.

I mainly use the TableEdit files from Co-Mando to learn most tunes - it shows both tab and notation, but it's way too easy to lean on the crutch when it's right there in front of me. It's time to start printing the songs out without the tab.

I really like the idea of finding the patterns and memorizing them as licks rather than individual notes. I see that the same thing should be done for chords and for rhythm... well, I guess I'd better get busy!

Now, has anyone seen my glasses?

c~

Michael H Geimer

Aug-09-2005, 2:29pm

How'd I miss this thread? (headcold has got me down)

I'm sure glad I learned how to read. It helped and encouraged me to trackle different instruments, including the manodlin.

But playing piano ... I'm not so happy as most with the compromise of showing TAB below notation, as it looks too much like a double-staff and it just confuses me. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Question for the notation readers: Do you translate each dot on the staff into the name of that note, then think to yourself, "Oh! That's Bb, so I'll play that note here."?

I didn't think so.

See, I think there is a lot less translation going on with Standard Notation than has been suggested. I think Notation is mostly an abstract thing that shows us how notes relate to each other over time, more than it describes the name of each note (and where on the staff do we even see the names of each note? We don't, because it doesn't matter). People might learn how to read by memorizing the names of each letter (as with our A,B,Cs), but that's not *how* you read. (that's just part of *learning* to read)

Same goes with SN. No matter what the key (and assuming I have practiced the mechanics of playing those scales on some instrument), Notation allows me to follow the musical phrases as they move across the meaures without the need to think anything more than Do Re Mi, or maybe Fifth, Forth, Ooh! Tasty Seventh! In its best sense, Standard Notation represents freedom from worry about fingerings. It becomes a beautiful representation of notes over time. (though I still can't sight read too well)

Someone far above suggested Notation is a universal language. Algebra would be another. Just as Standard Notation is not about fingers per se, Algebra is not about numerical solutions, it is about the relationships that allow one to slove particular problems.

But not everyone enjoys Algebra, that's for sure.

- Benig

hotclub

Aug-10-2005, 9:34am

I'm the guy who said notation is a "universal language", and I think Benig hit the nail on the head. Once you learn the language, there's not much translating going on when you're reading/playing. Sightreading is like reading a poem or story out loud for the first time. You don't know what's coming up next, but all the information you need is there. Once you've read it a few times, you start to notice where subtle inflections of pronunciation help tell the story better, and if you read it enough, it becomes easier to memorize. Learning to read notation is alot like learning to read words; there's no short cut, it's "See Dick run. See Jane run." at first. But while TAB can be a nice little mandolin specific jump start for the new player, learning to read notation is practice time much better spent.

arbarnhart

Aug-10-2005, 10:19am

Even after 40 years of reading notation, I have to admit that there is an intermdiary step in my brain to think of the note, and I tend to visualize the piano key as well as thinking the note name. Then I map it to the mando. But if I sit and play directly from notation a while, it will start to become more automatic. But it is never fully automatic, because there are only 6 commonly played notes that only have one location on the mando. Tab is automatic all the time.

I agree with Niles - the more pathways open the better. Read notation, read tab, play by ear and use Nashville numbering. Don't discourage a system that beginners find encouraging; work on convincing them of the value of the addition of notation.

250sc

Aug-10-2005, 11:55am

I'm thankful that so much material is available in Tab. When I read it and find a different way of fingering a phrase that works better for me for physical or tonal reasons I just play it my way. I don't feel locked in because that's the way it is written.

When I transcribe a piece by ear I often write it in tab format because I'm familiar with it. (Since my memory isn't always the best I'm often glad that I write it out)When writing the tab I give each note a 'tail' to designate the timeing value just like one would do with standard notation.

If I read standard notation better it would open some doors to me that aren't open now but fortunatly with the web plus all of the other recorded and written material available I have enough to keep me busy for the rest of my life.

fatt-dad

Aug-10-2005, 12:21pm

I keep catching myself thinking about this thread and have conflicting thoughts. #I honestly believe that to understand the complexities of music you must understand musical notation. #I also believe that those folks who want to play complicated jazz music would need to have the same knowledge. #I liken it to matching the correct vernacular (sp) to the topic of your speach. #Just imagine what you have to know about the english language to discuss linguistics! #More than just the ability to talk.

The flip side in my mind is not everybody is into linguistics and therefore doesn't need the appropriate vernacular to talk like a linguist. #These folks can still be creative, innovative and love their poetry. #I'm the latter. #My mom (piano teacher, opera singer, etc.) taught me to appreciate music (successully) and really wanted me to learn how to better play the piano (unsuccessfully). #I understand musical theory, 'cause I have the engineering gene and did real well in math. But, for me playing tab works just fine. #It is the vernacular that I've grown confortable with and if there are limitations sobeit. #Even in the face of those limitations, I still feel that my opportunities to be expressive, musical, and to work with others (who speak in my vernacular) are limitless.

I feel that I maybe opened up some holes in my presentation. #It is these holes that keep me thinking about this topic.

fatt I-think-too-much dad

mancmando

Aug-12-2005, 7:22am

I think that tab is really useful for the guitar, particularly in genres like blues/celtic where alternative tunings are used. This is because it is generally more ambiguous which position you should play a note in, but tab specifies this.

I don't think that tab is as useful for the mandolin, and it is not much harder to learn to read music, which is far more useful...

picksnbits

Aug-12-2005, 8:10am

IMHO

If the ultimate goal is to play a particular stringed instrument by ear, then tab has the advantage in that it forces you to listen to a song in order to be able play it correctly and tells you right where to put your fingers to produce what you're hearing.

If you want to formally study music theory or precisely transcribe a song, then standard notation wins out.

Total dependence on either is probably bad. I've seen more people who couldn't play a lick on the piano without sheet music than who couldn't play mando/guitar/etc without tab in front of them.

Not everyone wants to be a music theorist. Lots of people just want to find the quickest path to enjoyment of an instrument. Tab is great for that.

jmcgann

Aug-12-2005, 8:36am

Total dependence on either is probably bad. #I've seen more people who couldn't play a lick on the piano without sheet music than who couldn't play mando/guitar/etc without tab in front of them.

Yes, because the ear training side of musicianship (not to mention harmonic education, i.e. understanding chords and progressions) is often totally neglected in classical "private lessons". In the conservatories, there is a little more, but not much.

Although I started all this http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I agree tab is good for beginners, to get started. Trouble is, most people stop there, and they don't know what they are missing in terms of combining standard notation reading skills with a good understanding of chord theory. A bluegrass/fiddle tune player who never plays a note of jazz can still benefit greatly from this kind of understanding, in terms of helping develop soloing/tune variation skills...to play a Monroe solo and say "Ah, THAT'S what he's doing"! It helps you go from reciting licks (the HOW) to understanding WHY the lick was played in that context. That helps you as you go on to develop your own thing.

But knowing WHY is STILL less important than HEARING it all. If you can really hear, you don't need tab or notation, as many master players will attest...although many of them express regret at not having learned, and often suggest to younger players that they do learn.

gnelson651

Aug-12-2005, 11:16am

I want to thank John for starting this thread. Over the past few days I have been giving much thought in this area as it relates to my own experiences.

Some few decades ago I started to learn to play the banjo. I took lessons in the begining and my teacher provided tab as a means to learn to play. I continued to play banjo using whatever tab I could find and this is what I experienced:

-I would use the tab to learn a song but never learned the notes for each string beyond the open strings for tuning. I didn't practices scales since they were not taught to me in the beginning.

-I could only play in the key of G which is the open key for the banjo. I used a capo for anything else (such as A) still using the tabbed G scales or G shaped chords.

-I had difficulty in learning a song by ear. I was unable to determine the chords used without trying to find the chords noted on a piece of paper, i.e. tab sheets, written songs with the chords included, etc.

-I was not every good at playing with others or able to accompany them, all I could play was the melody I had learned using tab. I could not improvise very well.

Now fast forward to today after learning to play the mandolin for 1 1/2 years and especially learning standard notation (didn't want to make the same mistake twice):

-I learned to read standard notation comfortably within 3 months of daily practice using a beginning violin book.

-I am starting to understand the relationship between the notes and the chord now that I know what notes I play.

-I see patterns much easier within the written music which increases the speed of my ability to both play and memorize a song.

-Knowing scales and the notes on the fretboard has increased my ear training in that I can play the simple melody of a song strictly from hearing it. Further, I can take that simple melody learned by ear and play it in a different key.

-I can also figure out the chording easier because I now recognize what scale I am playing that fits the chord being played.

-My improvation skills are much greater knowing the notes on the fretboard. I can figure the pentatonic scales, arpeggiate chords or use the chord's scale.

This explains my opinion on why I discourage tab use and promote standard notation. Standard notation does take a little longer to learn than tab but provides a richer musical experience for learning music. But I agree with John in that using tab to get started learning your first few songs in OK but don't stop there. Take the time to learn standard notation and reap its many rewards in your musical journey.

Take it from my own experience: It is well worth the effort!!!

David M.

Aug-12-2005, 11:21am

So, I can be put in the grouping w/the big jazz greats since I can't read notation or tab http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Ted Eschliman

Aug-12-2005, 12:21pm

Great thread John.
Seems the most passionate on this issue will be the pedagogues, the teachers, as they are the ones to deal with the "road kill" of those who are limited to reading only what has been TABed for them in the last century.
Really that's okay, if that's the only century of music you intend to play, but I'd advocate the historical reasons for notation-reading ability. Lots of great (un-TABed) literature is out there (mandolin, flute, even piano) EASILY accessed by those who can read it, and we don't have to wait for someone else to TAB it. (Put guys like John out of work…) Even of the recent century, nothing gives me more pleasure than to sit down to a Fakebook of Jazz Standards and breeze through the tantalizing melodies of Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, George Gershwin, et. al.
Additionally, I think a good point's been made (and hopefully not missed) that notation gives quick insight into the harmonic structure of music. I'm blessed with immediate visual access to the 3rds, the 5ths, and all the intervals needed to glean chord structure, due to the clean and simple line, space, line format of standard notation. (I tend to think spatial relationships as I read, even over actual note names, but that's just me.)
TAB has its place. I include it in all my own written exercises where fingerings can't be as easily communicated, especially up the frets. However, my musical life would not be a fraction as rich without standard notation.

duuuude

Aug-12-2005, 12:32pm

Yep, I too have to give a thumbs up to John for at least bringing up the thought of reading notation every once in awhile, since it did get me to start workng with it more, though I doubt I'll ever be very fast or efficient it is a useful skill to have in the toolbox.

Tatoosh

Aug-15-2005, 2:09pm

If I remember correctly, standard musical notation was initially developed for voice. It's not the ideal method when used with instruments. Yes, one can get use to it through practice regardless of what instrument is being played. However, other methods of notation have been developed that are much better than standard notation. Unfortunately, like the qwerty keyboard, standard notation has so long a history of use, the "better" methods probably don't stand a chance of success.

Tab has also been around for a long time, probably hundreds of years. It's more popular now than its ever been. One reason for this increase in popularity is that it is relatively easy to produce on a computer compared with standard notation, which requires special software to produce. Also, with recordings being so ubiquitous, it is relatively easy to hear what a tune sounds like. This makes Tab more workable. Without recordings to listen to, Tab would be quite inadequate.

Perhaps the best notation method would vary by instrument. One system for keyboard, another for fretted instruments, etc.

I've always felt the main problem with notation is key signatures. How often have you passed a song by after noticing there were 5 flats, or sharps in its key signature? I've also wondered why the piano has to have its keys grouped as they are. There has to be a better way!

Years ago I took classical guitar lessons. Learning notation was mandatory. After awhile, patterns start to develop that lead to being able to play a new piece of music quite easily by sight reading. This skill can also be developed using Tab, but not to the same degree of facility as with notation. Once notation is firmly ingrained in your brain, you can almost hear a song just by glancing at the sheet music.

Since easier notation methods will probably not come in our lifetimes, I would suggest that everyone spend time learning to read notation at least in the 3 or 4 most common keys of our chosen instrument. In my view, it's worth the effort.

fatt-dad

Aug-15-2005, 2:38pm

So, what's my problem? I can sing in the church choir from standard notation, but am paralized looking at standard notation holding my mandolin. Maybe I don't have to think "where's the F#" when I sing, but on the mandoiln I actually have to know: A) where the F# is located and B) which F# to play.

My name is "fatt-dad" and I'm a lazy picker. . . .

fatt you-guys-are-probably-right dad

Clyde Clevenger

Aug-15-2005, 3:10pm

I learned to read music 20 years before I even knew about tab. Now I use both for teaching and learning new tunes, but I rely on ear training more than either. There are times when tab has opened a door that wasn't obvious any other way, maybe I'm just not that smart.

I have a cousin in Lubbock, Tx who is a concert pianist, teaches piano full time and it seems to me she can play anything as long as she has the music. But she is handcuffed to the music stand can't improvise at all, even simple stuff. I know of a number of similar cases, (it's easy to pick on my cousin)of very good players,handcuffed to the music stand. As someone said before, all these things are tools, and it's really hard to build anything with just one tool.

Tatoosh

Aug-15-2005, 3:26pm

No problem fatt-dad, standard notation is pretty good for mando and better for clarinet or other one-note-at-a-time instruments. It could be better for instruments like keyboards where lots of notes need to be played at the same time.

gnelson651

Aug-15-2005, 3:53pm

I have a cousin in Lubbock, Tx who is a concert pianist, teaches piano full time and it seems to me she can play anything as long as she has the music. #But she is handcuffed to the music stand can't improvise at all, even simple stuff. #

...I have a 15 year old daughter who is classically trained on the violin for the past four years.

She can improvise, play harmonies on the fly, and play just about any other string instrument as well as play drums (has a teacher) and keyboard (self-taught). I've seen her look at a guitar chord book and then strum/record the chords to a fiddle song she is learning to have accompaniment. She also plays the upright bass for my mandolin ensemble group after getting a 5 minute lesson; the girl is a human metronome.

The point here is that there are exceptions to anything. Some people have a problem improvising all their musical careers; others take to it like a duck to water. Regardless if they use standard notation, tab or play by ear.

I've seen mandolin players chained to tab. I've seen mandolin players who play only by ear struggle with a complex song. Improvisation takes letting go of your comfort zone, whether it is tab on notation.

However, standard notiation gives you the most tools to use for improvisation if you understand and know how to use them.

Glenn Nelson
Las Vegas, NV

Cetecea

Sep-15-2005, 8:49am

TAB=evil:D

jmcgann

Sep-15-2005, 2:19pm

Not evil; just: why would you have a White Castle burger when you can have beef tenderloin? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Peter Hackman

Sep-16-2005, 11:38am

Can ANYONE really READ tab? When I look at something in notation I try to look at the whole of it, the key, rhythmic ideas, harmonic structure,
proximity to tonal center, modulations, etc.
I want to to do this independent of instrument (I play
two) and regardless of fingering/position which I
almost always
want to work out on my own. Can't do that with notation,

Occasionally I might
want to see
how on earth this other guy managed those pyrotechnic
sixteenths,
then I'm helped by some fingering indications.

Notation hard to learn? When I started playing the
guitar in 1958 I knew notation, or at least ABOUT
notation. I learned in music classes in school,
without the slightest motivation (and without
any natural inclination towards music)
because
there was little else to do but watch and listen.
I absorbed it, because there was logic and structure to it.

Of course, it had been better to start playing, and pick out things by ear, before applying my knowledge.
Took me quite as while to liberate myself
from the shackles of theory and written music.

Over the years my attitude has been de-intellectualized.
Today I have trouble writing
even my own compositions
down from memory,
especially time values, syncopation. Maybe I shouldn't
bother with that and let others work out their
own interpretation. I'm not sure I play my pieces the
same way every time.