1939 A-type found in Kenya

[KenyaChip]

Hello.

I am an American living in the arid highlands of Kenya. Today, I was given an old no-name A-type mandolin finished in black. The glue had dried out so the body is literally coming apart at the seams.

This mandolin was handmade in 1939 by a luthier named: F. Elchuk from Winnipeg, Manitoba. Has anyone heard of this luthier? I can find nothing about him on the internet.

It appears to have maple sides and back and solid 2-piece spruce top. There are no cracks in the wood and the neck is straight, anchored nicely into the neck block with no separation. No truss rod though.

I’ve restored guitars with much more damage than this and I feel that perhaps it can be brought back to life.

This appears to be a basic, no-name instrument, not incredibly valuable. So, I would like to remove the black original finish and take it to a natural finish… unless it happens to be valuable- then I would certainly not want to mess with the original black!

I am asking two things: 1. Anyone heard of the luthier F. Elchuk? 2. Would you see any harm in removing the original black finish and taking it to a natural finish?

This will be my first mandolin to restore, so any advice or opinions you have would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much for your time.

Sincerely,
KenyaChip

[Aaron Woods]

If only the instrument could talk.

Being a sentimental Canadian I would have the following points.

1. Clearly the issue was the glue. All you have to do is reassemble it.
2. Why would you take it back to natural? Whatever value it has would be compromised if you make it look new.
3. There is a very good chance that it is at least a decent instrument - put it back together and string it up.

Or sell it to me!

[Aaron Woods]

Looks like Folkway Music sold one of his mandocellos:

http://www.folkwaymusic.com/oldmuseum/mandobanjogallery.html


Styled after Gibson’s K-2 Mandocellos built two decades earlier, we suspect this instrument was commissioned by a musician who couldn’t find a Gibson K in Wartime Winnipeg, Manitoba. The last Gibson mandocellos were shipped from Kalamazoo in the late 1920’s, and certainly few, if any, voyaged northwest to the Canadian prairies. Although his instrument is exceptionally well built, nothing is known of the luthier, H. Elchuk. Surprising, considering the quality of the ‘cello. Elchuk appears to have been an experienced and gifted builder. From the carve of the top and back, the shape of the neck, and the perfectly mitered purflings, it’s clearly evident that he spent time measuring a ‘teen’s Gibson instrument for reference. And although not identical to a K-2, this mandocello is indeed remarkably similar in style and tone.
Figured maple back, rims, and neck, spruce top, bound rosewood fingerboard, bound tortoise-celluloid headstock and matching pickguard. Waverly tuners, rosewood adjustable bridge, cloud tailpiece, bound soundhole and sunburst finish. 24.9” scale, 1-9/16” nutwidth. In excellent and crack-free condition; finish wear as shown in the provided photos. Open back centerseam and neck heel joint both glued in our shop, refretted and set-up as well. Playability is excellent with low action and perfect frets. Low C tuner worm gear was replaced years ago, but with a reverse gear – it tightens counter-clockwise now. Haunting voice, great looks, and excellent playability; and bargain priced relative to a Gibson equivalent.

[William Smith]

VERY nice, never heard of it? Rare yes!

[KenyaChip]

Thank you for your reply Aaron Woods. That's exactly what I needed to hear. The black finish has a definite patina of 80 years of life, who knows how much of that here in Kenya. But the grain on the inside is beautiful too.

I would never remove an original finish on a valuable piece. However, since this will likely be my only mandolin, I know that I can bring out that beautiful grain on this basic, humble instrument. That being said, I just wanted to gather some opinions from mandolin folks. I'll see what others say, but after your comments, I bet others will agree with you. I will probably leave it as it is. It has earned that patina after all.

Thanks again for your comments.

[KenyaChip]

Wow! Good job sleuthing the net! I saw this too and I'm thinking that the luthier mentioned in this post: "H. Elchuk" was perhaps the dad (older brother?) of "F. Elchuk" the luthier who made my mandolin. Who knows? It's cool to speculate and the mandocello in that post is quite pretty. Thanks again for your interest and comments.

[KenyaChip]

Thank you for responding William Smith. I am very excited to get it properly back together and play it.

[MikeEdgerton]

Nice find. I would leave it original not because it will affect the value, just because it's nice to see the way it was supposed to be. It should be noted that rare in this case has no bearing on the monetary value of the instrument. Unknown maker musical instruments rarely have any exceptional value. I'd put it back together and enjoy owning and playing it.

Years ago I ran down the son of a luthier that built a very distinct guitar in the late 20's. I was able to link the father to the son who was teaching in Chicago. He was more amazed that his father's guitar had made it to NJ than he was in the fact that anyone was interested in knowing about it. Enjoy the journey.

[fatt-dad]

there may be a truss rod? Clearly not adjustable!

I'd play it!

Enjoy!

f-d

[KenyaChip]

Thanks, MikeEdgerton, for the excellent points.

I've decided to leave the mandolin in the original, nicely patina'd (as I see it now after reading the comments) black finish. Everyone's comments are unanimous at this point and after staring at the old thing for a few hours I completely agree with you guys. What was I thinking?!

You guys were gracious! If I had posted on a Martin forum that I wanted to change ANYTHING on my old Martin, I would've been digitally shot on sight.

I will start work on it tomorrow with my Kenyan luthier and we'll get it back together properly, though it will probably take a while. I'll post pics when I can.

I really appreciate everyone so far and I would still like to hear from whomever wishes to comment, especially if you have a hint as to its Canadian origins.

Thanks all!

[William Smith]

Yeah man keep that baby original, I've modified really bad examples of mainly Gibson's from the 30's but now that I'm older and maybe wiser I would've left some alone, just fixed back to original! Some were perfect candidates for long neck conversions.

[KenyaChip]

I have another question: What strings would you guys suggest I put on this old mandolin with no truss rod? I will have to order them from the States and have someone bring them out to Kenya for me. There are definitely no mandolin strings around here. Let me know your thoughts.

[Randi Gormley]

I love the look of it in black with what appears to be MOTS inlays and pickguard -- of course, my snake is a blacktop so I'm prejudiced! Please let us know how the restoration goes. Thanks for posting this!

[KenyaChip]

Thanks, Randi! It's definitely growing on me as you guys comment about it. you are correct about the fretboard and pickguard. I'm a guitar guy, completely new to mandolins. So, here's a dumb newbie question (get ready to roll your eyes): Why is a "snakehead" called a snakehead? I know, what a stupid question. But I don't know.

[pops1]

The headstock tapers and looks like a snake. The older and newer headstocks are called paddle headstocks as they get wider away from the nut.

[Marty Jacobson]

The problem wasn't the glue, the problem was the heat! Probably left in a car/barn/attic, what have you. Anyway it probably saw many seasons of warm/not as warm cycles and the humidity changes that come with that. It was probably assembled with hot hide glue, and if so, it should definitely be reassembled with hot hide glue. You can tell if the glue looks like a brownish, clearish crystalline glue. I'd put money on it being hide glue. Good news is that hide glue makes these kinds of re-assembly much easier.
I also would not refinish it. The MOTS details wouldn't look very nice against splotchy sanded-past-the-varnish-but-still-somewhat-stained wood.
I'd try to re-assemble, flat off to 600 grit or so, and then see what touchup was needed.

It looks like a competently build instrument, built by someone who knew how to build guitars but hadn't been able to study Gibson (mandolin) blueprints (or disassemble an existing Gibson mandolin). Not too surprising, this was built way prior to the interest in Gibson mandolins by builders, and the only Gibson plans would have been in the Gibson factory!

[KenyaChip]

I definitely agree with you about the heat, Marty. We have months of dry heat with zero rain, followed by a rainy season of a month or two of almost constant rain. I am sure that's what did it in. Because of those long dry heat/ short continuous wet cycles every year, the body is a bit misaligned. It's going to take a good bit of shaping and patient, careful clamping to get everything back in its natural alignment. But you're right, it would not look as good without the original black finish. I will leave it for sure.

I think you also nailed it about the hot hide glue (no pun intended). It looks brownish, clearish and crystalline. I will ask my luthier if he has hot hide glue. We talked about this thing today and I'm almost positive he has it. He works on a lot of cellos and violins from several East African countries (there aren't many true luthiers out here) and he does very good work. But, if I understand you correctly, if he doesn't have it, we don't want to use any other glue. Is that correct? I'm curious why.

Thank you for your help! This forum has been a pleasure and very helpful!

[KenyaChip]

Thank you, pops1, for that answer. I've never seen one in real life.

[Marty Jacobson]

Check this out:
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Structural/CompressionTest/sidecomptest.html

The reason why you should use hide glue is because new hide glue will re-activate existing hide glue. Otherwise, you'd need to completely disassemble and re-machine each mating surface- more work than building a new mandolin, almost. But with hot hide glue, you need only get it all lined up and scraped clean of debris and the bulk of the glue, a little bit here or there will be reconstituted and all will be well.

[KenyaChip]

Marty Jacobson:
I just went to your website! HOLY COW! You do incredible work! Absolutely stunning craftsmanship! WOW!

My Stateside home is in Chattanooga. We'll be coming home in July for a year. I would love to come by your shop for a minute or two when I'm in Atlanta. Don't worry, my wife would be less than thrilled so I wouldn't stay but a few minutes. I certainly understand if you're too busy for visitors though.

I asked earlier about strings for this truss rod-less instrument. What would you suggest? Thank you again for your advice.

[Marty Jacobson]

Come on by. Fridays and Saturdays are best. We'll be traveling in June but back in town for July.
If the instrument goes together well and can be set up, there's no reason not to use EJ74 or similar gauge strings. I probably wouldn't put EJ75's on it in your climate, though. The additional volume is debatable, and it is significantly more tension. EJ73 would be a fine start, and work up in tension if need be. Keep it under 100 degrees F, and between 45 and 65 percent relative humidity, and you should never have any structural problems in the future.

[Cobalt]

The name Elchuk sounds like a Ukrainian origin. Certainly in Canada there are Ukrainian communities, and that might be a direction to look.

[HoGo]

The name Elchuk sounds like a Ukrainian origin. Certainly in Canada there are Ukrainian communities, and that might be a direction to look.

I remember there was a thread where someone posted a pic of (vintage) mandolin orchestra (maybe east european?) where almost all players had instruments that looked just like Gibson ovals but clearly were copies very much like this one and the cello in the link... I believe no one could identify the instruments in the pics ..perhaps this is one of those instruments?

Found the thread... it was Latvian orchestra and instruments slightly different...
here: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/threads/142601-1920-s-Mandolin-orchestra-with-Gibson-snakehead-Paddlehead-copies

[KenyaChip]

Thank you Cobalt for the info. Thanks for the link to pictures from 1929 HoGo! Imagine what 18 mandolins cranking it out at the same time would've sounded like! Wow!

Restoration update: I removed the back and started getting the body back in alignment today. The headblock and neck are in a happy relationship with each other, no splits or cracks. The top and sides are properly aligned with each other. The equatorial heat here caused the joint between the tailblock and the back to give it up, which probably saved the neck. So, the tailblock is very slightly angled outwards where it should attach to the back. I will be gently pulling this back into alignment over the next few days.

I originally said that the neck was straight... Well, it's pretty close, especially for a non truss rod instrument. There is a bit too much relief (no surprise) and a slight twist with the E string side higher, again no surprise. The heat also caused the fretboard to come free of the neck. So, while the neck is a bit bent, the fretboard is straight. We'll be sorting this out over the next week. All of the wood in this thing is surprisingly pliable and supple, not dry and brittle.

I am ordering strings today (thank you Marty Jacobson for the advice on strings)... buuuut I won't get them until June :(. So I won't be playing it for a while.

Thanks again for the input. Nobody speaks mandolin here, so I appreciate your time.
-KenyaChip

[DocT]

Post pics when you get it finished so we can see the rest of the story.