Not all Collings hold their value

[ABmando]

I hope this message does not get deleted, so we can have transparency.
I bought a Collings from a dealer.
I paid a little over $6000 for it.
I am lucky a half year later to get $4500 for it.
So, anyone who thinks that one can buy these new and later turn it around for anywhere close to what they paid for it, should beware.
Best to buy used, if you are not sure if you are able to hold on to it.

Maybe years from now, it would be reasonable to sell it.

I just thought I would pass on this experience to others.

I am not saying not to buy Collings, because they are great. But if it is one of the expensive ones, be careful.

[Eric C.]

What mandolins DO hold their value? Or rather, what "anything" holds its value?

[Mark Seale]

The general consensus from a value standpoint has been to buy used. The only argument for buying new is if you want to put the first scratches on it and you want the manufacturer/builder warranty. Beyond that, it is much like buying any big ticket item, the original owner gets the greatest depreciation. With some items or instruments that may level off or the market may bear price increases on new that help to maintain or elevate your original purchase value, but that is an exception, particularly with shop built instruments rather than individual luthiers.

[Doug Brock]

I think you WERE lucky to get $4500. I've seen suggestions that a used mandolin will generally be 70% of the price of the new instrument, with some leeway due to wear and tear as well as desirability of a particular instrument or maker. Anytime I see used instruments, I do that calculation and it seems to fit pretty well, from low-priced Eastmans and Kentuckys up to higher priced instruments. From that rule of thumb, a $6k instrument should go for about $4200 used.

Folks who talk about buying and getting close to their original cost are usually talking about buying used instruments.

[dlp]

on the other hand, i see 5-10 year old MTs being posted in the classifieds all the time for ~90% of their original MSRP at the time of purchase.

[MikeEdgerton]

This isn't a new phenomena or even a new subject. It's been a reoccurring discussion here for years and has nothing to do with who made the mandolin or for that matter, mandolins at all. Buy a new car and try to get the same as you paid for it a few years later. You won't. The best advice I could give anyone is that you shouldn't buy musical instruments as an investment. Very few will appreciate in value, very few will hold that value and most will give up a big chunk of their value quickly. There are always exceptions. I don't know who told you it would hold it's value but obviously they were wrong.

I'll also note that the term "hold their value" is pretty wide open to interpretation. A better question to ask when buying a new mandolin you might have to sell would be "How much have <insert brand and model here> been selling for used?

[Buck]

...So, anyone who thinks that one can buy these new and later turn it around for anywhere close to what they paid for it, should beware...That's true for nearly all regular production instruments. By that I mean models that are currently in production by well known manufacturers, large or small. There are outliers, such as limited edition models, but the exceptions are rare. Neither does it apply to individual luthiers. I can think of some highly regarded builders where the used price exceeds the new price, but again, that is rare.

When I think "hold value" in terms of modern production instruments, I think of instruments where the used price (assumed to be lower than new) tracks with the new price. So if the new price goes up 10%, so does the used price. I always expect the used price on very recent examples to be lower than new. With some brands it's a lot lower, some not as much.

I tell people if you're buying instrument as investments, you need financial counseling. If you're buying new instruments as investments, you need to stop drinking. That's not intended to trivialize your situation, but to demonstrate the magnitude of the negative outcome.

[Mandobar]

The thing that people forget is that it is easier to buy than sell. That said, selling something in a relatively short period of time always yields the biggest loss. Especially if you consistently lower the price in your listing. People then anticipate a “backwards auction“.

I’ve never had an issue selling or trading a Collings mandolin. But I never expect to get what I paid. 70% of new value is reasonable, so at $6k, $4,200 is reasonable. A dealer might get a bit more, depending on the dealer. However options like a wide nut reduce the pool of buyers, so your mileage may vary, depending on the options.

Lots of variables will affect a sale, especially the stop and go ads (put an ad up, take it down), different prices on multiple ads, etc. all of these things will put prospective buyers off an instrument. This is why I consign my instruments or trade them in. It just saves all the frustration of dealing with buyers. I’ve consigned many Collings mandolins over the last ten years at TME and they all sold within two weeks for what I was asking. And yes, they were all fairly expensive.

[doc holiday]

ABmando, As has been stated, this is no surprise and is certainly not limited to or a reflection of the quality of Collings. It is though, a statement about supply and demand. There are currently a lot of mandolins on the market at all price points. When Gilchrist mandolins were being ordered new for under $10k, but there were none to be had, they disappeared quickly at a much higher price whenever they came on the market. A new mandolin is like a new car you just drive off the lot.

[jeff_75]

I hope this message does not get deleted, so we can have transparency.
I bought a mandolin from a dealer.
I paid a little over $6000 for it.
I am lucky a half year later to get $4500 for it.
So, anyone who thinks that one can buy these new and later turn it around for anywhere close to what they paid for it, should beware.
Best to buy used, if you are not sure if you are able to hold on to it.

Maybe years from now, it would be reasonable to sell it.

I just thought I would pass on this experience to others.

I am not saying not to buy mandolins, because they are great. But if it is one of the expensive ones, be careful.

Fixed it!

:mandosmiley:

[Mandobart]

This has been hitting the used guitar market as well. As us aging boomers are downsizing, retiring, financing hip surgery, etc. there is a glut of good quality used instruments on the market. The supply is currently rising faster than the demand. Also, one of the first things to take a hit when the economy slows is the discretionary "investment."

[Markus]

I've watched the classified for years now. Based on that, I have a couple opinions on the used market:

High end models rarely hold their value. Collings MT's don't seem to suffer the 25+% instant depreciation that a MT2 suffers from buying new. The only MT2's that disappear fast in the used market are priced in the range of new MT models.

Upgrades [varnish, special wood, waverlies] are options that only add value for the initial purchaser. Buy them because you want them on the mandolin you bought new, they are a horrible investment strategy.

There are times of the year when the market is flooded [tax time in particular]. If you want to sell, you may have to wait quite a while to get your asking price - especially for higher cost mandolins. Some of those seem to remain available a VERY long time.

As the available varieties and makers of mandolins gets more diverse and more variety in wood, finish, and style offered - buying new with the thought that you can recoup value depends highly on choosing the most popular model, wood, finish, and add-ons. I like blonde mandolins, any used/online non-blonde mandolin needs to be cheaper or somehow stick out to keep my attention.

Once you get above $4k or so, I think travelling to a major shop becomes fairly common. I have been surprised recently at the number of higher end Collings/etc being sold on consignment/ used from the more prominent mandolin shops - I’m guessing taking a loss to get it sold. When I thought I had a $5k budget, it would have taken one hell of a deal to make me buy used online.

There’s a lot of buyer risk involved, even with a marketplace as good as Mandolin Cafe. More than a couple thousand sent on trust to a random stranger on the internet is nothing to scoff at.

Overall, it's a buyers market and likely to remain one for quite a long time.

-

I have been shopping Collings mandolins and am in the process of purchasing one. When I have compared the available used MT2's against the new torrified MT2 at a local shop, everything above it's $4100 purchase price I disregarded as without saving anything as there are few upgrades that make it worth the risk, hassle, and expense of test-driving a different MT2 when there's one that sounds nice and is my preferred finish that I played a half dozen times.

I love that torrified MT2, but I also like the $1000+ I'm saving vs. buying new. If it gets me 95% of the joy at 70% of the price and I have enough to left to buy a sweet parlour guitar - I'm guessing I'll end up happier with mandolin + guitar.

Unless you love that particular mandolin and are set on keeping it, it makes little sense IMO to buy new. Especially with the very active and stocked used market on this site, as well as the fact that baby boomers are retiring and many of them built up quite a stable of mandolins over the years.

Just my opinion.

[Pittsburgh Bill]

$4500 sounds reasonable to me. I would never pay more than 75% of new price for a previously owned instrument. For the other 25% I'll buy new.

[Tom Sanderson]

Why would anyone buy used if they can buy a new one for the same price???

[Tom Sanderson]

High end models rarely hold their value.It all depends on Supply and demand, and buying the right one. I sold 2 mandolins for over 5 times the price I paid new.

[OlDanTucker]

I would encourage as many people as possible to purchase High end mandolins from dealers and to resell them for 70% of the paid value after a year or two on the Cafe. Particularly a Pava F5 or an Ellis A. Then let me know...
Reasons to buy new:
1. They are shiny
2. You can boast how much you paid at the jam.
3. You don't have to deal with anyone's cooties.
4. You can get exactly what you want, even if you don't know what that is.
5. They smell better.
6. It encourages builders to make more.

[Br1ck]

What you get with a Collings is the ability to sell it much quicker than that Ajax no one has heard of. As for buying new, There are four or 5 Collings F styles, from an MF up to the real fancy one, and everything in between right now at Gryphon. Buying new you get exactly the finish you want at the price point you want. If you keep your instruments for a long time, that may be worth it to you.

Otherwise buy used, accept you may settle for a common burst finish, reap the savings and be happy. The other factor is a buyer having cash. I have been almost embarrassed by some of my offers. I just say, hey, that's all the money I have. Not trying to lowball you. Don"t feel the need to respond.

X amount of people can come up with $1K, Y amount can spend $2K, Z can spend $5K. What percent can spend $20K? So I don't know about you all, I'm retired living in a very expensive city. If I really wanted to, I could spend $4500 on a mandolin, well $10K but it wouldn't be prudent, but it would have to be a deal. Meanwhile I'm playing something I built that is very close to that $4500 Collings. Louder for sure. So every time you add a thousand you lose more from the buying pool. Selling as an individual, you need to compete with the established dealers too. As a buyer I'm happy with splitting the difference between what a dealer would offer and what they would sell for.

[vetus scotia]

On my local kijiji (Canada's Craig's List) I regularly see listings for instruments where people want their money back plus taxes. It is usually on a cheap Epiphone or Fender. Or, just as often, they ask for the retail price and point out that it is just like buying new but you save the taxes. Crazy.

I have bought a lot of instruments used, but almost as many new. What I like about buying new is that in addition to the consumer protections you get from dealing with a reputable retailer, you are supporting a local business. Even if it is a chain, you want that chain in your town, right?

Also, the way I look at it is: what you 'lose' in value you actually recover in other ways. It was like you rented the instrument, got to use it, enjoyed it, learned something about that make/model, etc. I mean, why would someone expect to own something for a year for free?

[Tom C]

You would probably get the same $4500 5 years from now. or even 10 years from now. Now that is holding value.

[Josh Levine]

There is a reason people watch the classifieds relentlessly. That is to find an instrument they want that is at a price point where they can get most of the money back or even make money if you really know the market and have good timing. That is pretty much not possible new. (Obviously) If you get a good price on a used Collings you can usually get your money back out of it...

I think the reason to buy new is if you find an instrument you have to have. Or you really want something from a particular builder. In that case you pay the premium, knowing once you drive it off the lot, you are going to immediately take a hit if you sell it.

Sounds like you learned all this the hard way.

[allenhopkins]

Resale value has never been one of the criteria I use in considering buying an instrument -- well, perhaps in the most general sense: I don't want to buy an instrument that I can't resell, for whatever reason, assuming I don't trash it or it's not found to be stolen.

If you buy a new anything, you generally don't expect that you can turn around the next day and resell it for what you paid for it. Perhaps if you hold on to it for years and years: I recently received $3K allowance on a trade-in, for a '57 Martin D-18 I paid $300 for 50 years ago. True story, and great guitar. But that's getting into the always-weird vintage market.

Depreciation is one very important reason that "churning" your instrument collection, buying and trading and selling frequently, can frustrate the poop outa you. Almost all the dealers I've done business with, have sold both new and used instruments, and have been pretty darn up-front about the calculations they were making in setting prices and trade-in allowances. It's when you're dealing with Semi-Honest Jim's New & Used Cars, and they promise to allow you more than you paid for your trade-in, that you know some other price is being inflated to permit this "one-time crazy offer."

Buying a new instrument, playing it for a year, and then selling it -- that's a pretty sure way to take a good "hit" of depreciation. Wait ten years, and will it be better? What'll Collings prices do over the next decade? If they skyrocket, they'll pull up the used market with them to some extent. My crystal ball's cloudy, so no advice here...

[ABmando]

Wow - I did not expect so many responses so soon!
It probably makes sense to just hang on to the mando. Afterall it is a great instrument, and why take such a hit on selling it used.

The lesson for me is to try to buy used to begin with. I need to learn that lesson somehow.

Thanks everyone for your responses.

[John Soper]

I always look at instruments for their pro-rated cost/hr entertainment, if I think about the cost at all. Your Collings MT2, if sold today, cost you about $6/hr of entertainment if you played it 10 hrs/week X 25 weeks.

That's not too bad. I know plenty of people who dropped much more than that for an evening's "entertainment" at the tables in Las Vegas... or what about Greens fees at a fancy golf resort? Last mandolin I sold cost me $0.25/hr of entertainment value (bought used), and the MT2 I bought new and sold 10 years later was pro-rated at about $0.50/hr. I have taken bigger hits on some instruments, but look at those as the cost of education.

[Bill Kammerzell]

I've had pretty decent success buying NOS. (New old stock.) Generally those are priced as if they are used. Plus you get the warranty. If I do end up selling, I barely take a hit at all.

[Rob Meldrum]

I'm in the process of downsizing my instrument collection (long, boring story). Most of my instruments are generic, garden variety, nothing worth over $1,000. My selling strategy is to search the Internet for the same instruments and see what their typical asking price is. I quote these numbers in my craigslist ad and then I price my instrument at 50% of that number. I have been getting responses in under 24 hours and selling the instruments within 48 hours. Am I leaving some money on the table? Maybe a little, but I'm not haggling or being hassled. And I am clearing out space in the house!

I just sold one of the infamous Rogue mandolins featuring one of my own awesome setups <grin>, with a nice gig bag, an unopened set of D'Addario strings and three picks for $30. I made a very nice guy happy. Win-win.

Oh wait, my point being it is rare to own an instrument and sell it for what you paid for it, unless you did a really good job when you bought it.

[Mandobar]

While manufacturers largely govern the new pricing of instruments (especially brands like Collings) we, the buyers and sellers on the secondary market, set and control the used market. The first person who sells/lists an MT for $1800 sets the expectation for future buyers.

[Elb2000]

Offer to sell a used Collings at a fair price and you will have a line of potential buyers. I only got mine because I responded 1st.
The only mandolin I bought new is an Eastman, since I think the used vs new price difference was only about 15%.

[Doug Brock]

New prices and used prices are both driven by the famous duo, Supply and Demand.

[Buck]

Wow - I did not expect so many responses so soon!
It probably makes sense to just hang on to the mando. Afterall it is a great instrument, and why take such a hit on selling it used.

The lesson for me is to try to buy used to begin with. I need to learn that lesson somehow.

Thanks everyone for your responses.Two thoughts....

If this is the worst financial "mistake" you ever make, you will have been more successful than most.

Whatever you lose reselling a mandolin will be much smaller than if you'd bought a boat.

My wife has heard both things a time or two. :-)

[Bob Buckingham]

I think we all could be more satisfied with those instruments that we just had to have when we bought them, unless of course you continually want to support the myriad of builders out there.

[Mark Gunter]

Why would anyone buy used if they can buy a new one for the same price???

^ This.

Anyway, you’ve lost *nothing* in value if you plan to replace it with another nice instrument. You’re getting a good price with used market dollars. Take those dollars and buy your keeper used, so that someone else is paying the depreciation on your next one. Nothing to complain about here.

[j. condino]

When the world somehow forgot about buying instruments for tone and making music and non muscians started thinking of them as investments, your soul and quality of life took the biggest depreciation....

[Mandobar]

When the world somehow forgot about buying instruments for tone and making music and non muscians started thinking of them as investments, your soul and quality of life took the biggest depreciation....

Absolutely. This has absolutely ruined the violin world.

[Br1ck]

When the world decided a third rate singer with a few dance moves could lip sync to 10,000 people was worth more than paying a teacher who has to couch surf so they can teach, that is when you know the decline in civilization is well on course.

Just another cranky old guy.

[prairieschooner]

consider that the "original owner" gets a "lifetime warranty" the next purchaser has to keep that in mind~~and the warranty has a value.
Sorry just saying

[Mark Gunter]

consider that the "original owner" gets a "lifetime warranty" the next purchaser has to keep that in mind~~and the warranty has a value.
Sorry just saying

Very true - but at any rate, warranty or no warranty, I’d buy new if used was the same price in most circumstances; what’s the incentive for buying a used piece of equipment if it costs as much, or virtually as much, as new?

[ABmando]

Thank you! A great persective! :cool:


Two thoughts....

If this is the worst financial "mistake" you ever make, you will have been more successful than most.

Whatever you lose reselling a mandolin will be much smaller than if you'd bought a boat.

My wife has heard both things a time or two. :-)

[almeriastrings]

They "hold their value" if you buy 'em at the right price to start with. That means buying excellent condition used. Not new.

Now, you CAN (sometimes) buy new and find they "hold their value" in some limited circumstances. These include situations where you buy and then the builder/manufacturer massively hikes the retail prices. Real-life example: In 2011 I purchased my Harvey-signed F-5 Fern (in the EU) for just over €5,000.... the current 'best' new price on those is €7,699. That's a big hike - so if I were to sell it (which I wouldn't, because I like it a lot) I'd get pretty close to what I paid new. Mostly though, if you buy new you are not going to get what you paid out.

[dang]

I had a few early mando experiences that weren’t exactly great and I more or less felt like it was wasted money. Nothing all that bad: a cheap ebay mando that had a “solid top”, a fender octave mando with pickup that was meh, an electric that was more or less just a neck bolted on a plywood board... I loved the used rigel I had but was a little disappointed when one of the tines on the tailpiece failed and I had to pay the cost for the new tailpiece and install.

Now my 3 main mando’s are custom orders. One from Weber back in 2004 and two from Collings 2010 and 2012 (or ‘13). All have a wide neck - and got a bunch of other customizations on the weber, but just a strap button and pickup on one Collings and a one piece birdseye maple back on the other.

I think of these as worth what I paid for them new, so I would be very sad to have to accept 70% (or less) of that value. And thankfully I don’t have to sell them, they would probably be the last of my possessions to go. But I guess that’s how I tend to operate, I try to buy exactly what I want from a respected name and get it customized to how I want it by them. I think it has something to do with being able to get it warrantied and serviced from the builders. It gives me confidence in my major mandolin purchase that I am relying on to keep on playing.

Recently I have been using a local luthier who can do seriously good work and I would feel much more confident buying used. He might have been working for Collings the same time one of my custom orders were made, but we’ve never looked into the timeline close enough to work it out. It’s a different world when you have someone you can trust to go over an instrument and make it better, or fix something without paying 2-way shipping.

I feel like the financial side of this is all sorts of crazy and as mentioned above gone in a soulless direction. Love the instruments I have and prefer customizations so I am saving up for a custom order from a small luthier who I will feel good about giving my money to.

[Mandoplumb]

They "hold their value" if you buy 'em at the right price to start with. That means buying excellent condition used. Not new.Now, you CAN (sometimes) buy new and find they "hold their value" in some limited circumstances. These include situations where you buy and then the builder/manufacturer massively hikes the retail prices. Real-life example: In 2011 I purchased my Harvey-signed F-5 Fern (in the EU) for just over €5,000.... the current 'best' new price on those is €7,699. That's a big hike - so if I were to sell it (which I wouldn't, because I like it a lot) I'd get pretty close to what I paid new. Mostly though, if you buy new you are not going to get what you paid out.

This is the second post that basically gives the manufacturer the sole right to setting price. This is where our thinking goes wrong and we tend to allow this to happen. If I make a widget and decide to sell it for$1000 and no one will pay $1000 I sit holding my widget till the cows come home and I ain't got no $1000! the market sets the price, not the manufacturer. Supply and demand, it matters not if you are a capitalist or not

[Mandobar]

The wait time on a new MT2v is more than a year, so if the rule of supply and demand applies, the OP should have been able to recoup much more than $4500. But there are other factors that play in here. Sometimes it’s not what you are selling, but how you are marketing it. At the right dealer, with the right pictures, the mandolin would have sold before even most people saw it (a good dealer has a great Rolodex of prospective buyers) for just a bit over $5k.

These instruments are considered luxury items, and the buying and brand behavior is not that of selling widgets. The manufacturer sets the price, and controls the distribution of the goods. The stronger the brand, the tougher the dealer terms and pricing guidelines. Buyer behavior online is also different than buyer behavior in a store. YMMV.

[Eric Platt]

Very true - but at any rate, warranty or no warranty, I’d buy new if used was the same price in most circumstances; what’s the incentive for buying a used piece of equipment if it costs as much, or virtually as much, as new?

Having the item. If a person, say, wants a Wayne Henderson or James Olson guitar, they are probably going to pay the price for a used one, which is usually more than new. Because the wait time to get new is very long. As other folks have said, supply and demand. Of course, those are individual builders and not small shops or factories.

[Frankdolin]

So Mandolins are just like cars and I shouldn't buy one new. OK. Lesson learned.:mandosmiley:

[Mark Gunter]

So Mandolins are just like cars and I shouldn't buy one new. OK. Lesson learned.:mandosmiley:

If you add “as a financial investment” to the end of that, I’d agree in most cases. Fortunately, there are other reasons that are way more important.

[yankees1]

This is the reason I don't buy a new vehicle anymore ! I don't like to drive it off the dealer parking lot and instantly lose ten grand ! There are exceptions in cars depending on how long you keep it and your age and the same with musical instruments. I paid twelve thousand for a new Peresson violin back in the 1980's. They now sell for around fifty thousand and my daughter has it. I have bought three and soon a fourth new mandolin and I don't regret these purchases as all mandolins will be distributed to my musically inclined daughters/grandchildren when I'm through with them.So, it just depends ! :)

[pheffernan]

So Mandolins are just like cars and I shouldn't buy one new. OK. Lesson learned.:mandosmiley:

The only difference is that some people believe that mandolins actually improve with age and use while they depreciate in price. I generally don’t buy new unless what I want does not otherwise exist in nature and would not turn up in the classifieds with a little patience.

[Doug Brock]

Buying used mandolins has three issues for me.
- The used mando generally doesn't have a warranty. I like a warranty!
- Like buying a used car, buying a used mandolin carries the risk of buying problems that the original owner didn't want to have to deal with. Those problems may or may not be easily detectable (especially by me, a relatively inexperienced mandolin player. Yes, a checkup by a good luthier would help with that.)
- Buying used from a seller in a distant locale carries some risks of being scammed that you don't have when you buy new from a reputable dealer. (Buying used from a reputable dealer costs more, but at least you don't have to worry about being scammed)

[Doug Brock]

The only difference is that some people believe that mandolins actually improve with age.
Age does generally include some negative effects, though. Fret wear can be a significant issue, especially in lower-priced mandolins. If you're paying a lot for an old mandolin, $200-300 on fret replacement is less of a concern. Neck problems and cracks can also develop and require repair. Again that has more significance on lower-priced mandolins. Do you want to put hundreds of dollars of repairs on an $800 mandolin?

[pheffernan]

Age does generally include some negative effects, though. Fret wear can be a significant issue, especially in lower-priced mandolins. If you're paying a lot for an old mandolin, $200-300 on fret replacement is less of a concern. Neck problems and cracks can also develop and require repair. Again that has more significance on lower-priced mandolins. Do you want to put hundreds of dollars of repairs on an $800 mandolin?

You’re describing issues of use, not necessarily age. And all of them can be identified and considered through the purchase process, even at a distance.

[LadysSolo]

I bought a used Collings MT, and based on the asking prices in the classifieds, I would likely get what I paid for it if I sold it today, and I have had the joy of playing it for a year (but it's not for sale.) I bought my Pava and my Weber new, and I have had them for three years (also not for sale,) I would lose a little from what I paid, but again, I have had the joy of playing them for three years. Basically, if I consider the cost per day as rental, if I keep them long enough, they have cost me nothing. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[LadysSolo]

BTW, I have bought new trucks twice, both times I planned to (and did) drive them until they were useless (over 300,000 miles,) both were in accidents and the insurance company declined to fix them ("Bambi" can really wreck a truck!) Now that the price of trucks new is more than I paid for my first house, it's used all the way!

[Mandobart]

Twice in my life pure dumb luck resulted in a material thing retaining its value. Sometimes its all in the timing. I reenlisted in the USN back in early 1985. I got a pretty nice bonus. I bought a new 1984 Toyota pickup for $11,000 (the Ford's and Chevys were too expensive). I drove that truck for the next 30 years, then sold it for $3,000. Obviously didn't "hold its value" but I feel I got my money's worth. At the same time (1985) I bought a new Harley FXRS for about $8,000. Due to insanity in the big cruiser motorcycle market the book value of my bike went up for the next 5 years, then held steady for the next 5. If I tried to sell it now (she still runs great) I'd likely get less than the original purchase price. But there was a time when it definitely held its value.
Again, I'd say I certainly got my money's worth from that bike. Lastly, around the same time frame, I bought a used Ibanez Musician electric guitar with a Peavey 130 amp for about $750 (I was single at the time of all these purchases, by the way). This guitar was a real beauty, extremely versatile for a variety of tone. As I came to the realization I'd never be a rock guitar god, I shopped it around to music stores in San Diego and later Seattle. They all said "nice guitar, but nobody is looking for one of these. I can give you $100." The case alone was worth more than that! So I hung on to the guitar. Fast forward to about 5 years ago - I inquired what the value of my old Musician was on a classic Ibanez website. The bids started pouring in totally unsolicited. I agreed to take $2600 from a guy in my state (later a guy in Chicago offered me $3000, but I'd already accepted an offer). I don't expect to ever have that experience again.

[Br1ck]

I think if you are a trader by nature, and you know who you are, you know there will be a certain financial cost. I know several who generally lose small amounts buying and selling, but don't really mind renting an instrument for a couple of hundred a year. Look at the car lease market. Plenty are willing to do that so they can drive cars they really can't afford.

But I'm not by nature a trader. One of my personal guidelines is not to buy a particular instrument if I'm thinking resale before purchase. But if I were to by a Collings for $4700 and sell it a year later for $4500, I wouldn't be put out. But they sure are tempting lined up all new and shiny at the store. And knowing I'm a keeper not a trader, I'll never say never to new.

[sblock]

There's no obvious reason why a used Collings, purchased new for $6,000, would sell for anywhere near the same price just six months later. The OP is simply not being realistic, in my opinion. As others have already pointed out, used mandolins in good shape typically go for somewhere between 2/3 to 3/4 of the new price, provided that they aren't considered vintage instruments, in which case both monetary inflation and collectability become relevant issues.

However, sometimes you get lucky -- but that tends to be the exception, and not the rule! I purchased a new Northfield NF-F5M back in 2011, when it was one of the first hundred-or-so mandolins that Northfield had produced. The list price of new Northfield F5 models was being raised steadily, year after year, from 2008 until the lower-cost S-series was introduced, a few years back. I managed to sell my Northfield at a profit in 2014. So, it not only held its value: it appreciated considerably. Of course, that's not remotely why I bought it in the first place, and I never expected to turn a profit. But that's because Northfields were seriously undervalued at the start, as the market subsequently told us.

Unless you are a highly knowledgeable buyer investing in vintage (never new!), collectable instruments, it is seldom possible to turn a profit on a resale. But yes, it can happen on rare occasions.

[Russ Jordan]

And then there is the Henderson D-18 that I got new in 1996, before the book was published about the guitar he built for Eric Clapton..........

[FLATROCK HILL]

At the same time (1985) I bought a new Harley FXRS for about $8,000. Due to insanity in the big cruiser motorcycle market the book value of my bike went up for the next 5 years, then held steady for the next 5. If I tried to sell it now (she still runs great) I'd likely get less than the original purchase price. But there was a time when it definitely held its value.


+1. Most things purchased new lose monetary market value the moment you buy them. But the notion that nothing holds its value is just as wrong as expecting everything/anything to hold its value.

That period you described re Harley Davidson was certainly unusual but it happened. Because of sudden unforeseen demand, you could buy a new Big Twin H-D, ride it for a year or two, sell it for more than you paid for it and pick up the new one (that you ordered when you picked up the last one) and still come out a few bucks ahead.

Lots of examples of things holding or increasing value. The trick is knowing which items and when to buy and sell them. Good luck with that.

That said, somewhat of a shame that a particular brand was singled out in the thread title.

[j. condino]

".....somewhat of a shame that a particular brand was singled out in the thread title....."

+1

See what happens when you buy a new Les Paul or telecaster!

[Mark Wilson]

You would probably get the same $4500 5 years from now. or even 10 years from now. Now that is holding valueThat is a good point.

[ABmando]

zI am the OP and I hear you. I paid a little over $6000 and it has been difficult to get $4500 now for this 2018 model in super condition. So, I thought I would just share this and I have learned a lot from the posts. At this point, it is better for me to keep it and enjoy it. It is a little more bluegrassy than what I prefer, but it will cut through when I need it to do so. Meanwhile, I really want a warm oval hole with sitka or englemann top - but I want to hear it first.

I did buy a used mando and was able to recoup what I paid. I have a preference now for used, unless it is in person and exactly the mando for my purpose.

I hope this thread was worthwhile - there are some takeaways I hope.
Best to everyone here, AB


There's no obvious reason why a used Collings, purchased new for $6,000, would sell for anywhere near the same price just six months later. The OP is simply not being realistic, in my opinion. As others have already pointed out, used mandolins in good shape typically go for somewhere between 2/3 to 3/4 of the new price, provided that they aren't considered vintage instruments, in which case both monetary inflation and collectability become relevant issues.

However, sometimes you get lucky -- but that tends to be the exception, and not the rule! I purchased a new Northfield NF-F5M back in 2011, when it was one of the first hundred-or-so mandolins that Northfield had produced. The list price of new Northfield F5 models was being raised steadily, year after year, from 2008 until the lower-cost S-series was introduced, a few years back. I managed to sell my Northfield at a profit in 2014. So, it not only held its value: it appreciated considerably. Of course, that's not remotely why I bought it in the first place, and I never expected to turn a profit. But that's because Northfields were seriously undervalued at the start, as the market subsequently told us.

Unless you are a highly knowledgeable buyer investing in vintage (never new!), collectable instruments, it is seldom possible to turn a profit on a resale. But yes, it can happen on rare occasions.

[almeriastrings]

This is the second post that basically gives the manufacturer the sole right to setting price. This is where our thinking goes wrong and we tend to allow this to happen. If I make a widget and decide to sell it for$1000 and no one will pay $1000 I sit holding my widget till the cows come home and I ain't got no $1000! the market sets the price, not the manufacturer. Supply and demand, it matters not if you are a capitalist or not

Actually, manufacturers DO have the "sole right" to set the price. They can, and they do. This does then 'filter down' (eventually) to the used market. Another example is the Kentucky KM1000. Just a few years ago you could buy brand new for $1100 or sometimes even less. Used examples could sometimes be found for $750. Street new price now is around $1800. Good luck finding a minty used one for $750 today. Nothing has changed. Same mandolin, but the manufacturer greatly increased the price and this had a trickle-down effect on the used market. Clearly we are talking about generally desirable and sought-after instruments here, not low-class junk than no-one wants to buy. As noted above, Northfield are another example of this.

[ollaimh]

i have bought new from builders i really liked, and wanted to support, other wise i usually buy used for the better prices. i have a special liking for odd instruments and unusual ones, that is found used, from ebay to junk stores. looking is fun.

[David Lewis]

I've had pretty decent success buying NOS. (New old stock.) Generally those are priced as if they are used. Plus you get the warranty. If I do end up selling, I barely take a hit at all.

Four of my five mandolins were NOS. The other was so cheap it didn’t bother me.

[Dagger Gordon]

I own two instruments by the great English luthier Stefan Sobell, which I'm not planning to sell. His stuff comes up quite rarely and he is an example of instruments which certainly hold their value.
His approach seems to be to assist owners of his instruments who are looking to sell by putting them up on an 'Available now' page on his website (nothing there today - I've looked!).

The main reasons people sell are things like they're never being played any more, the widow of its owner is putting it up for sale, and sometimes it's been traded in to buy a different Sobell instrument.
I doubt if Stefan takes a cut from these sales, but perhaps he does offer some helpful advice about condition of the instrument and how much you might expect to sell it for. I don't know.

But it's good that he offers this service to his old customers.

[Mandoplumb]

Actually, manufacturers DO have the "sole right" to set the price. They can, and they do. This does then 'filter down' (eventually) to the used market. Another example is the Kentucky KM1000. Just a few years ago you could buy brand new for $1100 or sometimes even less. Used examples could sometimes be found for $750. Street new price now is around $1800. Good luck finding a minty used one for $750 today. Nothing has changed. Same mandolin, but the manufacturer greatly increased the price and this had a trickle-down effect on the used market. Clearly we are talking about generally desirable and sought-after instruments here, not low-class junk than no-one wants to buy. As noted above, Northfield are
another example of this.

The fact that there is a MSRP and a street price proves my point. The MSRP is the manufacturers "sole right" to set the price The street price is where the consumer set the price. Which one is the real selling price? If the manufacturer won't move from the MSRP, and the consumer won't pay it there is no sale. Who really sets the price?

[Cary Fagan]

Perhaps one should remember that not everyone has the time or wants to spend hours researching instruments or buying and selling until they find 'the one.' I have friends in my jam who have bought new one good axe, always a well-known name--Gibson, Collings, Bourgeois, etc., and it'll be the keeper. They wanted the assurance that goes with buying a new warrantied instrument from a reputable store that has given it a set-up. Seems perfectly reasonable.

Then there are people like us who read reviews endlessly, go into every music store they pass, check the classifieds, and think of the quest as an exciting journey. Sure, I feel clever because I bought my Passernig 12 years ago or so when he wasn't on almost anyone's radar. That appealed to me, the fact that nobody I knew played one. (A kind of snobbishness in itself really.) I could likely sell it now for $1,000 more than I bought it. Part of that is just rising prices. I wouldn't sell it but I've bought and sold plenty of other lesser used instruments, looking for the right oval hole, the right travel mandolin, but really enjoying the chase and the challenge of not losing money. In fact, I'm a little sorry to say I've found them and have dropped out of the hunt. But I look anyway...

[Greg P. Stone]

It is worth mentioning that the some makers of musical instruments and some salesmen routinely conflate the possibility of their used products rising in value with the very much more remote possibility of a new purchase doing the same. We may think the OP is naive, but another way of saying that is that he is honest and expects others to be as honest as he is. Why are we not more critical of, why are we so accepting of, those whose mild fraud is so endemic? The Uniform Commercial Code makes a distinction between fraud and "puffing", between lies and exaggerations. A lie is a lie, and we should strain less to discern gray levels of lying and be less willing to portray someone who believes a lie in a black and white judgment.

[Mandobar]

It is worth mentioning that the some makers of musical instruments and some salesmen routinely conflate the possibility of their used products rising in value with the very much more remote possibility of a new purchase doing the same. We may think the OP is naive, but another way of saying that is that he is honest and expects others to be as honest as he is. Why are we not more critical of, why are we so accepting of, those whose mild fraud is so endemic? The Uniform Commercial Code makes a distinction between fraud and "puffing", between lies and exaggerations. A lie is a lie, and we should strain less to discern gray levels of lying and be less willing to portray someone who believes a lie in a black and white judgment.

Collings has never made that claim, nor have I, in the 30 plus years of buying and selling instruments, heard any builder, maker, or dealer promise (or even intimate) a “return on investment”. Some people have made money on instruments they sold (hopefully they remembered that the rates on collectibles gains are pretty steep), but those transactions seem to be far and few between.


That said, some instruments sell quicker than others. A wide nut mandolin has a very small pool of buyers. So does a $10k or $20k mandolin. However, folks are willing to take a “haircut” on a new purchase, or even a used purchase. That affects the buying behavior of prospective buyers. You have to have the tenacity and the “stomach” to sell instruments on-line (and the time to deal with buyers). I recognized a long time ago, that I have neither, so I leave that frustration up to the professionals. It’s well worth the fees associated with these sales.

[Elb2000]

Why are we not more critical of, why are we so accepting of, those whose mild fraud is so endemic?

I think a lot mandolin sales is about puffing (woody tone, opens up, beautiful back) lots of opinions and not as many facts. If folks want more facts, maybe spend time studying dialectical phenomenology versus enjoying music. That said, if there is fraud, then use appropriate or legal remedies.

[Elliot Luber]

When you buy anything, you pay for the life of using that item. Here it's a Collings instrument, but it could be a Rolls Royce or a box if Cherios. When you use that item (or play the Hell out of it) you are using up that item's finite life, so when you sell it, it will naturally reflect the loss of the part of that life that you have used up, like a half-eaten box of cheriois. That's the accounting principle of depreciation, where one assesses the cost of an item over the period of time inwhich it is used, rather than simply when you buy it. It's like buying on time in that when you sell it off you no longer make payments, but you're only selling the unused portion of its useful life, so you get less money.

When you buy a premium or collector's mandolin, like a Loar (should we be that lucky), you are either willing to pay a premium because of the name cache because you are a working musician who appreciates the fine artistry in it and how it makes you sound, or you are betting that the price of the instrument will appreciate because of its rarity or high demand. In both cases, buying a costly antique can be risky, as can buying a new instrument for $7,000 when you can't really afford it. The buyer understands and agrees to take that risk because of one or the other set of reasons, it sounds great and is cool, or it's probably going to be worth even more money. Sometimes this is just something we tell our wives. Sometimes we kid ourselves.

Thus, when you are a person of limited means buying a fine instrument, it's not wise to buy above your budget -- but it's oh so damned enticing. I love the Collings blonde or Honey finishes, but then there is the wife who would throw me out and sell the mando if I spent that much on an instrument given my current financial position. There are other uses for that money that I am weighing a purchase against. So it's a truly individual decision based on appreciation -- yours and the instrument's -- and speculation -- one gambles only what one can afford to lose, and that's before asset risk, such as theft, fire or "whoops," the most scary word in the mandolin vocabulary.

[almeriastrings]

The fact that there is a MSRP and a street price proves my point. The MSRP is the manufacturers "sole right" to set the price The street price is where the consumer set the price. Which one is the real selling price? If the manufacturer won't move from the MSRP, and the consumer won't pay it there is no sale. Who really sets the price?

Whatever the actual dealer/wholesale price really is. We all know some companies 'inflate' the so-called 'list' price to make things appear a better deal than they really are - but ultimately what the store actually pays + their markup to cover costs and (hopefully) some profit is what 'creates' the 'street' price. Of course, the manufacturer/importer/distributor sets the price the store pays in the first place. Naturally supply and demand affect that, but as noted, we are talking about fairly desired instruments (at various levels) here, be that Collings, Gibson, Kentucky or Northfield. Not things that sit on the shelf for years.

[Jeff Mando]

Speaking of manufacturers having the "sole right" to set prices........

The internet age has "spoiled" us with information that was unavailable to a previous generation. Things like dealer cost, wholesale, and quantity discounts were concepts that were closely guarded among "insiders" and not available to the public. Car buying, for example, and for generations was a game of cat and mouse -- requiring negotiations lasting hours at the dealership, back and forth, with the buyer trying to get close to that mysterious number without the salesman telling what the number actually is..........nowadays, ANYBODY can look up the price for anything online in a matter of seconds.......I REPEAT we are spoiled!!!

Speaking of cars, people seem to forget around 1980 when Honda cars were in such demand that people were paying more than sticker to get one. I forgot when they called it, dealer prep or something, anyway people glady paid it to drive a Honda.......

Needless to say, not that long ago, many small town vendors with no competition were able to sell things for "more than retail" or MSRP as it is called today. In fact, nobody pays MSRP today, they pay the internet "street price" as it has become known.....I would go so far as to say prices overall have come down for most items over the last 50 years, if we take into account inflation. And, IN THE GOOD OLE DAYS, we got better service buying locally from Joe who ran the hat shop and lived down the street and his kids went to our school and were also in scouts, and Joe was a member of the PTA and also went to our church......of course, he HAD to give good service because he had no place to hide!

Different world, different world.....

I repeat, we are spoiled.........paying retail or more than retail was once the norm.

Selection today has never been better, just get online. I remember as a kid visiting NYC and in Rockefeller Center was a men's shop and mom went crazy buying dad shirts because they "we so much cheaper" than what the shops charged in our little town back home -- imagine NYC being the "cheap" place to buy stuff!

Times have changed. We are spoiled. And, largely ungrateful.......

One last story, I'll repeat, when we were teenagers playing $50 made in Japan guitars, my buddy worked two years sacking groceries, drove a $50 car (yes, you could buy a running used car for $50 back then!), and came home one day and surprised us with his brand new D-35 Martin that he paid $1200 for at the local piano store who was an authorized Martin dealer. We all knew Martins were the best, so nobody questioned the price and it was a wonderful guitar. Years later, working at a music store I found some old price lists from Martin from that period and saw the suggested retail price on his guitar was $365 -- still a lot of money, but nowhere near the $1200 they charged him! This was from a respected local business, who looked him in the eye and charged him more than triple retail and got away with it -- that was normal, back then! NOBODY KNEW. If they did know they were sworn to a secrecy stronger than the magician's code......he still has the guitar, by the way!

Yep, we sure are spoiled today.......

[Br1ck]

Don't forget, if you can prove it to the Feds, tax benefits for instruments used by professionals. Ever notice how often an artist, when they reach a level of success, ditches that trusty old beat up mandolin and is seen with a Gilchrist or some such? Actual loss of value becomes less an issue. Then there are those willing to pay more because a heroe owned it. That perplexes me.

Collings is a very good example for this discussion, because they have a well deserved reputation for quality and consistency. But they sell so many mandolins that there are a lot of used instruments out there. The XYZ instrument may be rare, but fewer are willing to take a chance. It kind of evens out. I do notice there are many new ones to choose from too. But doesn't Collings have a dealer agreement stipulating a minimum for which they can be sold?

[Greg P. Stone]

To be clear I didn't cite Collings. I made a general point about "some" companies and salesmen. Impressions from other sources can be generalized to apply to a specific purchase even if the company and salesperson associated with that individual purchase did not seek to make such an impression.

For those unaware that some companies and some salespeople try to describe new purchases as investments, who's being naive now?

[illinoisfiddler]

If you bought new from a dealer, you can almost never get full value as selling used there are no guarantees, returns, warranty, etc. that a dealer may offer. I usually use the 50% rule. If you bought it new, figure you will get about 50% of your price on the used market, sometimes less, sometimes more. The problem is, is you wanted $6k for it, someone can just go buy it new as there is no advantage to paying the same price for used as for new. Of course, condition and scarcity can play into this equation, but overall the 50% rule seems to work for me.

[Mark Gunter]

Since we’re telling stories...

I shop for bargains, and bought an MD315 new for $500 a few years ago. I bought a tweed case for it, and played it a couple years, then sold it and recouped 98% of my total investment. To do that, I made a video that included sound bites and an explanation of the value of the setup I’d done and the value of the HSC. I threw in some case candy — strings, picks and a Joyo tuner, altogether maybe < $20 — and it sold in open auction for way more than I’d expected, nearly $600.

Recently, I sold my MT for $1600, I’d bought it from a good friend awhile back for the crazy price of $1500. The fellow who bought it from me could probably get $1800 for it if he were so inclined. It sold through MC classifieds in a matter of hours.

My experience has been that I have bought a lot of new and a lot of used instruments in my lifetime, and when I’ve sold instruments I’ve actually profited at times, while most often it’s been a net loss financially, but I’ve never had any regrets. I bought ‘em to enjoy, and never as a financial investment for financial profit as a motive.

[jdmeyers77]

Slightly different perspective from a long-time MT2 fan. I've probably owned 5-6 MT2s -- all purchased minty used through the Cafe -- over the years. Then, MAS would strike, I'd sell and try something else for a while. But I always missed the MT2 after a while -- as it tone-wise and aesthetically pushes all the right buttons for me. Usually I'd lose $200-$300 in the deals, but I figured that was the cost of getting to play a cool "new" mando for a year or so.

Then, Collings introduced its vintage case and the cremona burst. I realized that buying new would assure I'd never recoup anything close to original price, but I didn't care. I contacted a Collings dealer I have always respected when I saw on their website a beautiful, quilted MT2 in cremona with the new Collings case. I traded in my MT2 and obviously accepted slightly less than it may have fetched selling on the Cafe in order to snag this particular new instrument. The shop was terrific to work with all the way through and very transparent.

That was almost a year ago, and now, finally, I know that I've reached the "top of the mountain" in terms of pride of ownership in calling this cremona MT2 my last ever sample of this wonderful mandolin!

It's my first ever brand new MT2, and the case alone (an $800 value) -- every time I admire its design and craftsmanship -- is inspiring to me to "earn" this fine instrument by becoming a better player! (IMHO, Bill's last great innovation was his cases -- and they are truly a testament to his vision and memory as a true artist who cared deeply about quality and beauty. If you've ever had one in your hands, you know what I'm talking about!)

So if you are in a space as I was, and really, really know that that the new mando you are buying will be with you a long, long time, then the depreciation issue becomes a moot point. I felt great pride in filling out the Warranty Card and receiving back from Collings a personalized "thank you" letter for the purchase. My MT2 quest is over. :)

[Br1ck]

Great MT2 story, and maybe the most valid reason to buy new I've heard yet. At that time you were sure of your needs, had experimented and come back to the same model time and again. You ended up with the finish you wanted and will likely not sell. Prorate and maybe your cost will be a buck per day.

[J.Albert]

illinoisfiddler wrote:
"If you bought new from a dealer, you can almost never get full value as selling used there are no guarantees, returns, warranty, etc. that a dealer may offer. I usually use the 50% rule. If you bought it new, figure you will get about 50% of your price on the used market..."

Can you make your rule apply to used Ellis F models ?? ;)

[Bill McCall]

......
I paid a little over $6000 for it.
I am lucky a half year later to get $4500 for it.
So, anyone who thinks that one can buy these new and later turn it around for anywhere close to what they paid for it, should beware.
.....


Interesting, I don't know anyone who thinks they can sell a 'newish' instrument for >75% of retail. Why buy 'almost new' without the benefit of a warranty?

Many used instruments are sold with little depreciation, assuming the condition is relatively the same. Never the case for the new to used equation.

On the other hand, that new Martin I bought 45 years ago is priced higher now, but with inflation I'll bet it's adjusted price has declined. Doesn't matter if you aren't in it to sell it;

[ABmando]

Well - the reason to buy almost new, and in new condition, with 25% off, is to save 25%! $1500 on a $6000 instrument is a lot of money to save. How much is the warranty worth? $2000? more? Any help is appreciated.



Interesting, I don't know anyone who thinks they can sell a 'newish' instrument for >75% of retail. Why buy 'almost new' without the benefit of a warranty?

Many used instruments are sold with little depreciation, assuming the condition is relatively the same. Never the case for the new to used equation.

On the other hand, that new Martin I bought 45 years ago is priced higher now, but with inflation I'll bet it's adjusted price has declined. Doesn't matter if you aren't in it to sell it;

[rcc56]

Well - the reason to buy almost new, and in new condition, with 25% off, is to save 25%! $1500 on a $6000 instrument is a lot of money to save. How much is the warranty worth? $2000? more? Any help is appreciated.

Depends on the warranty and the willingness of the manufacturer to back it up.
Getting approved warranty work from certain well known manufacturers can be very difficult.
As a repairman, I have had experience with customers who have failed to get factory defects covered by a manufacturer.

I have, however, never heard of any complaints about Collings. I'll also mention that I don't think I have heard of a Collings that needed warranty work. They are pretty conscientious about what they make, possibly more conscientious than any other manufacturer of their size or larger.

[Josh Levine]

Depends on the warranty and the willingness of the manufacturer to back it up.
Getting approved warranty work from certain well known manufacturers can be very difficult.
As a repairman, I have had experience with customers who have failed to get factory defects covered by a manufacturer.

I have, however, never heard of any complaints about Collings. I'll also mention that I don't think I have heard of a Collings that needed warranty work. They are pretty conscientious about what they make, possibly more conscientious than any other manufacturer of their size or larger.

Collings is amazing with warranty work. I bought a used MT2 that had some they refinished under warranty because there was some bubbling in the lacquer even though I wasn't the original purchaser. No questions asked.

[Baron Collins-Hill]

I had similarly excellent experiences with Collings customer service. It doesn't get any better!

Thanks,
Baron

[luthier88]

The fact that there is a MSRP and a street price proves my point. The MSRP is the manufacturers "sole right" to set the price The street price is where the consumer set the price. Which one is the real selling price? If the manufacturer won't move from the MSRP, and the consumer won't pay it there is no sale. Who really sets the price?

I wasn't going to comment on this thread until I saw your comment.

I won't say who I was working for, but it was a major Acoustic Retailer. A customer called in asking about a Collings Guitar, a custom order. If they paid in advance and didn't bug us, could we cut them a deal? He told me that the best deal that he could find was 10% off MSRP. I said that we could, thinking that a guitar all paid up front was worth a decent discount. The next day I was called in for a chat with the owners. Bill Collings had called, and they were informed of what I had agreed to, which was a discount of greater than 10% off "MSRP". I was told that Bill was irate and upset and told them that if they wanted to continue selling his products, that a 10% discount was the most that they were allowed to offer. I was new and didn't know better. I have a Collings Guitar. I had met Bill years earlier. When I re-met him I told him the story and he said that I wasn't the only one that he had to shock back to toe the line.

So, not really. In this case, Bill set the price and if you wanted to sell his products, you sold at his prices. I think that Collings Mandolins will "hold their value" in the long run, but if you purchase a new one and want to flip it the next year, you'll take a loss.

[luthier88]

This is the reason I don't buy a new vehicle anymore ! I don't like to drive it off the dealer parking lot and instantly lose ten grand ! There are exceptions in cars depending on how long you keep it and your age and the same with musical instruments. I paid twelve thousand for a new Peresson violin back in the 1980's. They now sell for around fifty thousand and my daughter has it. I have bought three and soon a fourth new mandolin and I don't regret these purchases as all mandolins will be distributed to my musically inclined daughters/grandchildren when I'm through with them.So, it just depends ! :)

Yes, but with Peresson there was a time when you couldn't sell them for what you had paid for them. There were issues with pre-carved plates and being thinned out a bit much in certain areas, primarily the tops around the edged and under the fingerboard. For years folks would come into violin shops that I worked at asking if we would help them with their Peresson violin. He has been "rehabiltated" in the trade, but 20 years ago you couldn't give them away.

[Br1ck]

Another issue, especially with brands that have marketing departments, is the advertising the new and improve mandolin. All of a sudden, folks are thinking, do I want the old neck joint, or that new dovetail? Or maybe someone will have to give away that old inferior mandolin.

Weber dovetail, Northfield generation 37, even smaller builders striving to improve continually. All this has an effect on value. Even Kentucky moves a factory and thousands of instruments are in danger of being thought as inferior. Let's not mention Taylor guitars....

[Elb2000]

My recent experience with Collings customer service has been outstanding.

[Jeff Mando]

Another issue, especially with brands that have marketing departments, is the advertising the new and improve mandolin. All of a sudden, folks are thinking, do I want the old neck joint, or that new dovetail? Or maybe someone will have to give away that old inferior mandolin.

Weber dovetail, Northfield generation 37, even smaller builders striving to improve continually. All this has an effect on value. Even Kentucky moves a factory and thousands of instruments are in danger of being thought as inferior. Let's not mention Taylor guitars....

I blame internet forums and people with too much time on their hands for creating some of these opinions. If version 2 is better than version 1 -- that's called marketing. If version 1 outperforms version 2, then you have created a collectors item and people will seek out the earlier one. Part of it is normal curiosity and pride of ownership -- sure, we want our version to be the best, don't we?

Long before the internet, Gibson stopped making Les Paul guitars in 1960 and "reissued" them in 1968. Some of the 1968 guitars were "different" than the 1969 guitars, so the rumor began that some of the early ones were actually "leftover" 50's guitars that Gibson had laying around. That rumor persists to this day. Is it true? I don't know, but we have been "marketing" magic in the instrument world for a long time, IMHO.

[Br1ck]

So true. Guilty as charged regarding too much time on my hands. But we face an extraordinary situation, because any moderately sized town will have three or four car dealers to compare to each other, but mandolins? We have to wade through personal opinions, biased by pride of ownership, guilty, availability in stores, somewhat guilty, advertisement and endorsers, susceptible, and instruments owned by friends, a very few.

Then you have the net where every possible maker is out there and available. But I wouldn't want to go back to the model T days of buying only a black car. So you digest the info and pick your poison. Still, how many of us would be just as well off buying that Weber someone across town has. Go play it, like it, buy it, then play it without guys like me touting their Silverangels on the Cafe.

And worst of all, the scroll...........uping the financial angst to a new level......oh, the scroll......

[Russ Jordan]

I guess the OP can be thankful he didn't buy this one when new:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/138358#138358

[Jeff Mando]

And worst of all, the scroll...........uping the financial angst to a new level......oh, the scroll......

Well, style always costs more...........and do you want to play it or look at it? You know, alligator loafers vs work boots, long hair vs short, push mower vs lawn tractor, etc......

The worst is scroll envy and thinking what it must be like to have a place to attach your strap :mandosmiley:

[ABmando]

:):):):):):mandosmiley::mandosmiley::grin::grin::g rin:


I guess the OP can be thankful he didn't buy this one when new:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/138358#138358

[Dave Sheets]

So, a bit of an experiment coming up here, as Collings prices on new instruments are going up. The OP may well see the used value on his instrument rise as well.

[fatt-dad]

To the OP: I love your MT-2V!

Regarding buy and resell (i.e., whether new or used), it's a matter of making profit or paying tuition. I've learned a lot!

I've also bought new instruments. I think I've sold one of them; however. I had a HD-28V (Martin guitar), but learned I don't like dreadnaughts. So, I sold it and bought the Norman Blake 000-28 (new) and the OM-28 authentic.

I had two mandolins made.

I had the opportunity to buy mandolins that I hated! Wow! Was I glad to get rid of them!

hang in there! It's only money!

f-d

[Jeff Mando]

hang in there! It's only money!

Good quote! I used to work for a wealthy collector and one of his lines was, "I really don't mind overpaying....if it is something I want."

I thought, "I never heard that one before!" :disbelief:

[Br1ck]

It kind of blows me away, the mandolins that can be had for around $3k right now in the classifieds and Reverb. When selling some of these beauties, their owners might well be wishing they were selling a Collings. Are things that bad in the market?

[ABmando]

Well - I did relist mine on the cafe for $4500. Almost had a buyer - bought I was honest - it is loud and can cut through a mix. BUT it is not ideal for celtic. It is warmer than ADI - but not as soft as Engleman - which to me is more suitable for celtic. So, I lost the sale, but can feel good about. This mando is really for someone looking to cut through mixes and jams, perhaps bluegrass and other forms of music, someone looking for the advantages of ADI with a little more sweetness.

So it is sort of a niche instrument.

The good news - if it sells, I have some money to pay bills. If it does not sell, I have a great mando.

And the other good news - this thread has been a real learning experience for me as well as teach me the value of this wonderful mandolin community here on the Cafe.

[Mandobar]

Well - I did relist mine on the cafe for $4500. Almost had a buyer - bought I was honest - it is loud and can cut through a mix. BUT it is not ideal for celtic. It is warmer than ADI - but not as soft as Engleman - which to me is more suitable for celtic. So, I lost the sale, but can feel good about. This mando is really for someone looking to cut through mixes and jams, perhaps bluegrass and other forms of music, someone looking for the advantages of ADI with a little more sweetness.

So it is sort of a niche instrument.

The good news - if it sells, I have some money to pay bills. If it does not sell, I have a great mando.

And the other good news - this thread has been a real learning experience for me as well as teach me the value of this wonderful mandolin community here on the Cafe.

Alan, I have an MT2V with an Italian top (actually two) that I play at Irish sessions. Haven't overpowered a singer or a fiddle yet. Don't sell this one short. These mandolins are great for ensemble playing.

[Br1ck]

I have been hot and cold about Collings. Started out cold, then warmed up to the signature tone, realizing how well it would perform in a group setting. I also have more bluegrass licks now. But for Celtic and fiddle tunes, my Silverangel is superior for me. But really, I could live with a Collings as an only instrument.

I think the more genre specific your tastes, the more specific your mandolin needs to be. The internet has ended up being a very mixed bag. Like I said, you used to check the want adds in your local paper, go play the one good mandolin listed there, buy it and play it. Now you can spend endless hours over what kind of spruce the top has, the finish, the neck profile, etc. You are far less likely to get a deal, and far less likely to get hosed, because there is the marketplace at you fingertips. Like the old saying goes, it's worth what someone will pay.

Reminds me of taking my wife car shopping. She sees something she likes and bounces up and down in the driver's seat shouting " I love this one." Kind of screws my bargaining ability. Same thing when you play a used instrument you can't put down. They know.

[ABmando]

What great posts you have!

You have a point. I am so use to practicing it alone. But when I was in a group setting, it was exactly the sound I wanted. Alone - it can be a little too much on the "bluegrassy" side. Maybe I should really keep it. I am probably not properly judging it. (But I did need the funds for taxes - and that has passed.)

[Markus]

ABmando, I did look and lust after yours ... but ended up going with a non-varnish/waverly version of that mandolin a week ago as it was hard to pass by a italian/birdseye MT2 at the price I got it at [less than the new MT at the local store]. It's hard to pass up a 65% discount off of new.

It is a great combo. Got it last Saturday and it has done everything I asked of it - negated the desire for a monitor at my gig that night as I could hear myself over the mix easily, it could cut through for bluegrass, sounded sweet doing solo classical at home, and rocked a firepit jam. Sweeter than adi but still seems to have all the headroom you could want.

To cap the whole thing, the morning after I got it my wife told me that the audible quality difference between this mandolin and my prior was clear to her. It's hard to beat an instrument upgrade where that happens!

Good luck selling yours. If finances were different I would have bought yours [and that J point Kimble in the classifieds, I've heard it played a number of times and it's an incredible mandolin].

[fatt-dad]

Thile plays classical on a bluegrass instrument!

I’d think an A5 suited to anything!

f-d

[Louise NM]

Thile plays classical on a bluegrass instrument!

I’d think an A5 suited to anything!

f-d

Or, Bill Monroe played bluegrass on a classical instrument. The F5 was developed long before bluegrass began.

[SincereCorgi]

I always look at instruments for their pro-rated cost/hr entertainment, if I think about the cost at all. Your Collings MT2, if sold today, cost you about $6/hr of entertainment if you played it 10 hrs/week X 25 weeks.

That's not too bad. I know plenty of people who dropped much more than that for an evening's "entertainment" at the tables in Las Vegas... or what about Greens fees at a fancy golf resort? Last mandolin I sold cost me $0.25/hr of entertainment value (bought used), and the MT2 I bought new and sold 10 years later was pro-rated at about $0.50/hr. I have taken bigger hits on some instruments, but look at those as the cost of education.

Glad I'm not the only one who is always thinking of my 'instrument per hour' price when I'm playing. I've got a weird old mandola and some other oddballs that are probably still around $40 an hour or something, to my embarrassment. They should have odometers.

[fatt-dad]

Or, Bill Monroe played bluegrass on a classical instrument. The F5 was developed long before bluegrass began.

Hence the absurdity of my statement. Sorry if I was too obtuse!

f-d

[Markus]

SincereCorgi, I do too.

I justified my mandolin upgrade thinking it was $10 per gig for the next decade - possibly much less. But that didn't seem like a lot to be playing a superior instrument.

[LadysSolo]

Glad I'm not the only one who is always thinking of my 'instrument per hour' price when I'm playing. I've got a weird old mandola and some other oddballs that are probably still around $40 an hour or something, to my embarrassment. They should have odometers.

Just be glad it's not a boat! The cost per hour of enjoyment (plus you have dock fees, and have to keep putting gas in them unless it's a sailboat) - I think we have very economical pleasures with our mandolins.

[allenhopkins]

Just be glad it's not a boat! The cost per hour of enjoyment (plus you have dock fees, and have to keep putting gas in them unless it's a sailboat) - I think we have very economical pleasures with our mandolins.

Someone described ocean yacht racing, as standing for days fully clothed in an icy shower, tearing up $100 bills.

Even my worst day playing the mandolin didn't approach that.

[illinoisfiddler]

See my mention of scarcity or particular desirability of a certain model. I am not sure that Ellis mandos are very common, hence the higher resale value.

[Mandobar]

See my mention of scarcity or particular desirability of a certain model. I am not sure that Ellis mandos are very common, hence the higher resale value.

Used a5 prices are around $4500 off the $6k plus new pricing. So the resale is about the same as Collings. A new f5 is around $12.5k with used prices between $9k to $10k. Ymmv.

[Mandobar]

So, a bit of an experiment coming up here, as Collings prices on new instruments are going up. The OP may well see the used value on his instrument rise as well.

After speaking to several dealers, if you are thinking about buying a Collings, new or used, now is the best time to pull the trigger.

[re simmers]

I bought a Flatiron F5 (Weber) new in 1992. I had no idea who Bruce Weber was. I bought for $1,800 including tax and case. I sold it in 2010, excellent condition, for $3,500. From 1992-2010 Flatirons faded and Bruce Weber became more well known. I had no way of predicting either event.
That’s probably the only time I’ve ever made money selling something. Unless my last name were Gruhn, I doubt I could ever make any money reselling an instrument in 2 years.
Bob

[Charles Kelley]

Actually, manufacturers DO have the "sole right" to set the price. They can, and they do. This does then 'filter down' (eventually) to the used market. Another example is the Kentucky KM1000. Just a few years ago you could buy brand new for $1100 or sometimes even less. Used examples could sometimes be found for $750. Street new price now is around $1800. Good luck finding a minty used one for $750 today. Nothing has changed. Same mandolin, but the manufacturer greatly increased the price and this had a trickle-down effect on the used market. Clearly we are talking about generally desirable and sought-after instruments here, not low-class junk than no-one wants to buy. As noted above, Northfield are another example of this.



The fact that there is a MSRP and a street price proves my point. The MSRP is the manufacturers "sole right" to set the price The street price is where the consumer set the price. Which one is the real selling price? If the manufacturer won't move from the MSRP, and the consumer won't pay it there is no sale. Who really sets the price?

This looks like disagreement about nomenclature. When almeriastrings uses the word "price" it seems he is using it to mean the amount of money a person says he will take for a mandolin. When Mandoplumb uses the word "price" it seems he is using it to mean the price at which a transaction occurs. And they are both right. The MSRP or quoted price by a manufacturer certainly has some effect on the psychology of the people involved in the secondary market. I agree with almeriastrings on that. The supply and demand curves dictate the price at which a good exchanges hands. I agree with Mandoplumb on that.

[Charles Kelley]

I wasn't going to comment on this thread until I saw your comment.

I won't say who I was working for, but it was a major Acoustic Retailer. A customer called in asking about a Collings Guitar, a custom order. If they paid in advance and didn't bug us, could we cut them a deal? He told me that the best deal that he could find was 10% off MSRP. I said that we could, thinking that a guitar all paid up front was worth a decent discount. The next day I was called in for a chat with the owners. Bill Collings had called, and they were informed of what I had agreed to, which was a discount of greater than 10% off "MSRP". I was told that Bill was irate and upset and told them that if they wanted to continue selling his products, that a 10% discount was the most that they were allowed to offer. I was new and didn't know better. I have a Collings Guitar. I had met Bill years earlier. When I re-met him I told him the story and he said that I wasn't the only one that he had to shock back to toe the line.

So, not really. In this case, Bill set the price and if you wanted to sell his products, you sold at his prices. I think that Collings Mandolins will "hold their value" in the long run, but if you purchase a new one and want to flip it the next year, you'll take a loss.

Yikes. Very few people with admit on the record to that. See https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/vertical-price-fixing.html

[SincereCorgi]

Yikes. Very few people with admit on the record to that. See https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/vertical-price-fixing.html

This is extremely common for musical instrument companies- they don't want their dealers to undercut each other and race to the bottom. If you don't sell at their price -- or at least advertise at their price -- they drop you as a dealer. This results in the current weird system where there's a silly 'retail' price, a 'street' price, and then a weird secret discounted price that only applies to old stock or maybe employee purchases.

This does sort of seem like price fixing, but so does the price of my dad's blood medicine, and I don't see anybody trying to police that.

[luthier88]

Yikes. Very few people with admit on the record to that. See https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/vertical-price-fixing.html

Yes, well, Bill is dead so there isn't really a case there. In the Musical Instrument world it really isn't that uncommon. You create things and tell your dealers what to sell them for. If they don't want to sell them for that price, then you find someone else to sell your instruments. If you make good enough instruments, you won't have problems finding people willing to sell them for a price that you demand.

[fatt-dad]

Getting back to the topic. . .

Italian spruce? I sort of get sitka and red spruce. I have a redwood top mandolin. I have no ideas what to expect from Italian spruce? I guess unless you know about that tone wood, the subject MT2V is a bit of a mystery to many.

Now if that was red spruce, varnish, waverleys, wide nut, Collings? More folks would guess what it may be regarding sound. Just not sure about the Italian. . .

f-d

[Markus]

Getting back to the topic. . .

Italian spruce? f-d

Music Emporium has a `crazy bright' recording of a 2017 Italian topped MT2. IMO, all their videos sound super super bright [not sure that's the best way to feature a Collings which often lean toward bright] ... but I judged it based on that.

But your point is good - the differences in tone between Italian and others is not so well known or perfectly defined.

I tell ya, I really like the used MT2 with Italian that I got a week and a half ago. When I play it hard bluegrass it seems to hold together ala adi [and not get whompy like my sitka breedlove does]. It also seems to do really well at lower volumes, while I expected Italian to do well when turned up to 11 I really like it at low volumes too.

While there's a lot I've noticed in the past 10 days stepping up to a much better instrument, it's seems like a much higher level instrument has many more `gears' in terms of volume/tone than $1000 instruments - both a broader range and the ability to sound great at any level of loud/soft.

Where the Italian is in that equation is a question mark to me. If you want to send me an Engleman MT2, Torrified Sitka MT2, and Adi MT2 I'd be happy to compare them for you. I'm wordy, I'm sure I can find a lot to say lol

[Mandobar]

All of the top woods have different tonal ranges when paired with different varieties of maple for back and sides. Birdseye with Adirondack, Sugar Maple with Adirondack, Birdseye with Italian, Sugar Maple with Italian, Big Curl Sugar Maple like the OP's mandolin brings its own thing to Italian, etc. Tone can be shaped by many things, including strings and picks.