The most delicate sounding classical mandolins

[CervenySatek]

Hi all,

I've been hunting for a few classical mandolins for months now, and have been periodically checking this awesome site (and getting jealous of your collections). So far, all of the classical mandolins I've tried don't sound as delicate as what I want. Particularly, they've been too blunt sounding above the 9th fret or so on the E and A strings. (I'm looking for more of a "chirp" sound than a "bell" sound.

I wonder if anyone out there could offer their opinion about which makes of classical mandolins are the most delicate sounding, and how to setup any mandolin to be as delicate as possible. So far, I've tried the following:

Martin flatback (mahogany back)
Martin bowl-back
vintage Washburn bowl-back
Puglisi bowl-back
unknown vintage Italian looking style (long ago - possibly Stridente)
Vega bowl-back
Several old unlabeled bowl-backs (probably American)
various modern 14 inch scale flatbacks

Regarding setup, I'm particularly curious about string spacing. It seems that the few I've played that have close spacing sounded the most delicate by far.

Your thoughts .....?

(FYI: I generally use sharpened medium thick picks (tortex/ultex etc), but have tried all sorts of weights, points etc. )

[Jim Garber]

My main question to you tho, is what strings were on these instruments. That may make a big difference. Generally I find that either the Dogal Calace or Lenzner Consorts give me a sweet sound in the upper registers. I would think that Thomastiks would give you more of that more muted tone, tho "bell-like" is the tone I would like in the upper register.

I do get that on my Pandini at around the high d or so. The other of my functioning Italians -- my Demeglio -- also has that sweet lightness of tone but is different esp when played forte. This is, of course, all very subjective.

In any case, IMO choice of strings makes a big difference. For instance, I have a vintage Harwood which has a loud raucous sound with GHS ultralights that I intend to tone down with Thomastiks. I think that Calaces would be too bright sounding.

The other area to change tone is in the saddle materials. If you want that brighness perhaps a harder saddle might be required -- bone, or even pearl might make a difference. The Demeglio's and their ilk have a brass rod for a saddle which adds to a sweet tone with sustain. As Martin once so succinctly noted, they sound as if there is a party in the bowl.

Jim

[Bob A]

I think there's a link between delicacy of sound and delicacy of construction; the sweetest instruments I have seem to be the lightest.

Dogal strings are nicely balanced across the board; possibly Lenzners are sweeter in the wound strings? Such a subjective question.

FWIW: Vega's Pettine Special is the sweetest US instrument I've played; but I haven't played many Martins.

The point about string spacing is interesting; my Pecoraro has a wide spacing, which in turn cries out for a more forceful stroke. I think you're on to something here.

[John Craton]

For a really delicate sound you might try using a quill plectrum. Never used one myself, but I've heard people play with them and they offer a very "quaint" timbre.

[CervenySatek]

Bob,

I think I know what you mean about a "more forceful stroke". To begin or end isolated notes, I speed up the tremolo, tighten the pick, and lessen the stroke width, which seems to be much more effective towards graceful beginnings and endings, if a mandolin has closely spaced strings. Does anyone else out there get their bridges modified to have the string spacing closer? (I mean the space between a pair of strings - such as E to E)


Jim/All,

Some of the mandolins had GHS classical, but I'm not sure about the rest. I haven't yet tried Lenzner, Calace etc. I'll certainly try them all once a get a few decent, playable mandolins. I'm curious about it - thanks for the feedback!

This is interesting - I'm wondering if we're defining our tonal adjectives the same. I think of tone along 4 fundamental variables:

1. warm / bright
2. big voice / small voice
3. pure(clean) / rich/earthy/complex
4. loud / quiet

So, a small voice doesn't have much bass, but still carries as well or better than a large voice. So, with this model, I would describe mandolin types like this:

A typical modern bluegrass would be "big voiced" and "clean", with some being louder and/or brighter than others. A typical vintage Italian bowl-back would be "small voiced", "earthy", with some being louder and/or brighter than others. A modern German bowl-back would be "medium voiced", "clean".... A typical vintage American bowl-back would be "medium voiced" and "earthy"...

I'm curious, is this the way others out there describe tone?

I don't know what people mean by sweet - maybe "warm" and/or "earthy"? I suppose "sustain" might be considered separate from tone, but I'm not sure. I think of a "bell" like sound as being "clean" and "big-voiced", but maybe when you (Jim) say "bell", you mean long sustain? ( now that I think of it, I suppose a small bell would be small voiced) Well, I better stop myself before the topic gets even muddier.

Any thoughts - anybody? This site is very helpful.

(OperaGuy, I've seen middle-eastern instruments played with quills, but I imagine it being difficult to play with touch. I've never tried it though)

[Eugene]

An aside: I play a 19th c. mandolin with historic stringing using a quill. I don't think it would work at all well on modern mandolin strings.

[RSW]

I worked out a spreadsheet (Lotus 123 but I can translate it to the Microsoft equivalent) with what I consider ideal string spacings for the mandolin. If anyone wants a copy, please contact me directly. I don't quite agree with Cervenysatek about the bluegrass mandolin (modern Gibson derived) being bigger voiced than a fine bowlback, you should hear my Larson or a fine example of Embergher or even a well adjusted Pandini. Volume (big voice) is not wanting at all. The degree of sweetness, or a chirpy sound versus bell like (I know what you mean here) can be controlled a lot by the type of pick one employs and basic technique. I agree with Bob about the high fat content of the Vega mandolins. You get this with a good Vinaccia too. I personally prefer a bit more variety of tone color (not just sweet or earthy) and getting the right balance requires some fooling around with setup but you can do alot with the pick.

[billkilpatrick]

i use a thin strip of horn to good effect on instruments strung with nylgut. metal strings tear them up and for those i use a very thin (.38 or .46mm) white nylon guitar pick.

the mid-missouri flat-back i just brought back from the states seems very well suited for classical pieces - much better sounding (in my everso'umbleopinion) than the mandolin used in the bach mandolin instruction book and cd from mel bay (with an "f" style scroll-top on the cover) that i also brought back.

interesting point about the spacing of strings in each course.

- bill

[Martin Jonas]

Bill -- pick preferences are of course very personal indeed, but I would recommend you try thicker nylon picks as well. I have come across a number of players (mostly from guitar backgrounds) who started out on these very thin nylon picks and I have found that they invariably had a very thin tone, which much improved with thicker picks. I use Jim Dunlop .88 (dark grey) or 1.0 (black) nylon picks and strongly suspect that these picks (probably with a somewhat looser grip than you're using on the thin ones) will give you a much fuller tone and better volume and clarity.

Martin

[Bob A]

One of the more pleasant, and frustrating, ways of spending an afternoon is with a collection of varied picks and a mandolin. I was fortunate enough to have about a hundred picks left behind for me by an old room-mate, and bought a couple collections off ebay, as well as a selection from the cafe classifieds.

Some of the faves are ivory (thanks, Bratsche) TS of course, Wegen, Ultex, Pettine and Santos Supreme. It's surprising how different instrument/string combos will work out - or not.

It's also surprising to find top performers sticking to one brand and model of pick; I notice they also tend to stick to one instrument. Doubtless they've refined the affair over the years to settle into their own sound and style. I should live so long.

[Martin Jonas]

I'm back to experimenting with picks on the Vinaccia now, from my selection of 20-odd picks. It's interesting to note that when I met Alison Stephens in March, she was using nylon plectra on her Embergher, around 0.9mm thick if I remember right (not Jim Dunlops but slightly smaller hand-shaped ones of similar shape). When I met her again in June, she had switched to Wolle rubber picks and was rather evangelical about them. To my ears, the tone she got out of the Embergher was fabulous before and after, and I didn't notice a definitive change. I have the suspicion that sometimes tonal differences loom larger in the ears of the player than the listener.

Martin

[Bob A]

Touch probably plays a part as well - how does the pick "feel" the strings. As for TS, my feeling is that the pick "noise" frequency is lost in the sound of the note, while other materials are more noticeably "clicky". All very subjective, of course.

One player of note uses Pickboy picks becasue of the grip surface, which is not unlike an octopus tentacle, with all the little suction cups. Wider as well, which makes for a stable and easily-gripped surface.

I have an ancient Kay nylon pick that is one of the few that make my mandola sound bearable, to me at least. I was always in a panic about it, fearing loss. I found a pick dealer/collector on ebay who provided me with several more. I was more amazed at the existence of pick collectors than I was relieved to find the pick I was seeking.

Peter Klima (NOT the hockey player) made some deer antler picks that might prove useful on nylgut. The picks are almost too soft to use on metal; certainly the Dogal Calace strings are pretty rough-surfaced. Once again we prove our superiority to the fiddlers - not only do we have tortoise to rival the endangered pernambuco, but we have a myriad of substances that work to rpovide a nearly infinite selection of materials and shapes to mess with, while the best, and perhaps only, alternative they've come up with are carbon-fiber bows.

[billkilpatrick]

i appreciate that a subtle difference in picks may be audable only to the player but ... there you go - i hear it. i also appreciate what you say about hard nylon as opposed to soft nylon picks producing a thinner tone. what i'm after, however, is a delicate, "early" sound - something to suggest quill on gut - and these soft, white nylon picks on metal strings are as close as i've gotten so far. if you've any suggestions in this regard ... i'm sitting up and paying attention.

has anyone heard from bratche lately? her address is listed as "south florida" and - what with recent events - it would be nice to hear from her.

regards - bill

[Eugene]

Persoanlly, I favor ca. 0.75-0.80 mm plectra in a rather traditional Neapolitan shape on Neapolitan mandolins. Right now, for readily available, I'm favoring Dunlop's Ultem Gold plastic which I reshape from their large triangles. There are a number of other materials I like, but I've never managed to get on friendly terms with nylon plectra. For archtop mandolins, I go a bit heavier in a softer plastic (John Pearse heavy jazz picks to be exact). On early Neapolitan, I've been using real quill, but will result to a hand-fashioned sliver of ivoroid when I don't have goose feathers on hand. On the now incredibly rare occasions I put plectrum to steel-strung guitars, I like Pickboy's hard, smooth Metacarbonate material
(no suction cups on those) in 1.00 mm. I just can't get anything but a really thin tone out of modern steel with any plectrum I've come across that is less than 0.5 mm thick.

I hate to so obviously state the obvious, but if you want the sound of quill on gut or fine brass wire, Bill, your best bet is to go for quill on gut or fine brass wire. If you string an instrument that was built for steel in gut, it will almost certainly sound rather weak. Instruments that were built for high-tension steel will never sound like the delicate, air-light instruments that were built for gut. There's nothing wrong with that. My advice is always to enjoy things for what they are, Fabricatore to Crafter, and not pine over and expect them to be what they are not.

[billkilpatrick]

i'm not pining - not even oliving. it's been raining all day and i've been inside playing my mandolin ... olive trees can wait.

i'm trying to get a particular sound from my mandolin but no matter what i do with it - or my/charango/guitar/oud/or whatever ... it will be exactly what it's made for.

[Eugene]

That's beautiful, man. I wish I was enjoying the rain where you are rather than the sun from my office/prison.