Inherited a Washburn Cremonatone Bowlback from about 1905

[Screenclassics]

My father inherited it from his father, who played a lot, by ear, in 1960. I inherited it in 1994 and it had probably been played a 20 times max in the intervening years. It has not been played ever in the last 25 years and we moved to Arizona 16 years ago, where it is DRY. Never had a clue about dehydration. Only for people and animals! After having visited the Musical Instruments Museum a few weeks ago, I got very interested in the mandolin. Have been lurking around you guys for several days and reading tons on the Internet in an attempt to figure out how old (done) and learn something about Mandolins in general (not done). Said mandolin is now at a shop, in the humidifier, and then will undergo some restoration. The luthiers were impressed with the physical condition it’s in, but at this point, that’s all we know.

Meantime, I’ve decided to take some lessons on a newer something that does not hold such extreme sentimental value for me. I am pretty sure I’m going to go with an Eastman MD304A—O.

Just attempted to add pictures of the Washburn, but that appears to be beyond my capabilities at the moment.

Thoughts?

Jan

[NickR]

If the label is inside, it will mention a style number which will relate to its build- how expensive it is- this will also figure in the ornamentation exhibited. The more staves that make up the back, the better- from 11 going into the 40s (44?) for the highest costing example.

[Screenclassics]

Unfortunately there is no style number, just the serial number. One of the pictures I wanted to post was of the label. It appears (I’m counting from a picture that doesn’t show all) that it might have 19 staves. Frankly I’m surprised my grandfather could afford one at all in 1905. He came from Sweden to San Francisco in 1899 at 19 years. I have no real idea how I posted the one picture. Still trying to figure out how to do it again. Thanks for responding. Maybe when I can post the label someone else will see a style number.

[Screenclassics]

175787175788175789175790175791 Finally!!

[MikeEdgerton]

Frankly I’m surprised my grandfather could afford one at all in 1905

Do you know that he bought it in 1905? Move forward a few decades or so and the price would have gone down.

[NickR]

The serial number is about right for 1905 or 1906. The style 130 has 19 staves.The fingerboard was extended to 20 frets in 1901. The drawing does look just like your mandolin- all the details and inlays etc although it is a bit small.Sold for $30 which was quite expensive at that time. The books shows that label with the number 211939 and gives the date as 1905-6 so I think that is pretty definitive.

[Screenclassics]

He had the mandolin my dad's (and siblings) entire life so he had to have gotten it new. It's not like they were dirt poor, but I was surprised he had the money for that. He MAY have had a Russian one before and sold it for a little bit of money. We've never been clear on the Russian thing, but he was in the Merchant Marine (or whatever they called that sort of thing then) from about age 16 to 19 and Russia is one of the places to which he traveled. He didn't really like to talk about his life prior to the US -- it wasn't all that happy, so my Dad was never even clear on it. We have always been under the impression he had some sort of instrument at that time, and he did all playing by ear.

[Screenclassics]

Nick, however did you find that information? That's amazing!!

[Screenclassics]

I don't think I'm doing this reply thing correctly. Am I supposed to be quoting what I'm replying to? Somehow I sort of thought it did that automatically.

[MikeEdgerton]

If you want to know more about the company that built it and to see catalog pages you'd simply buy Cafe member Hubert Pleijsier's book Washburn Pre-War Instrument Styles (https://www.amazon.com/History-Washburn-Guitar-Instruments-Mandolins-ebook/dp/B00S4YVHPG/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_2?keywords=washburn+pre-war&qid=1554237574&s=gateway&sr=8-2-fkmrnull). That's pretty much the definitive reference book on these.

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't think I'm doing this reply thing correctly. Am I supposed to be quoting what I'm replying to? Somehow I sort of thought it did that automatically.

You have to select Reply with quote if you want to tie it to a specific message. It doesn't happen automatically.

[NickR]

It is all in here: https://www.amazon.com/History-Washburn-Guitar-Instruments-Mandolins-ebook/dp/B00S4YVHPG

[Screenclassics]

If you want to know more about the company that built it and to see catalog pages you'd simply buy Cafe member Hubert Pleijsier's book Washburn Pre-War Instrument Styles (https://www.amazon.com/History-Washburn-Guitar-Instruments-Mandolins-ebook/dp/B00S4YVHPG/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_2?keywords=washburn+pre-war&qid=1554237574&s=gateway&sr=8-2-fkmrnull). That's pretty much the definitive reference book on these.

Thanks! I will certainly do so. Buy it direct or just search online?

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It is all in here: https://www.amazon.com/History-Washburn-Guitar-Instruments-Mandolins-ebook/dp/B00S4YVHPG

Terrific. Thanks for that link. Just ordered it!

[NickR]

It's a huge work- I bought it as I was interested in getting an old Washburn/Lyon & Healy guitar. I did buy a guitar advertised as a Washburn- which may be a Lyon & Healy made instrument for a third party. It is sometimes hard to work out who made what when it comes to this company- someone else has told me he is convinced it was made by Lyon & Healy- he restored one and it is on YouTube. However, having bought the book, I now have access to a wealth of information on guitars, mandolins, ukes, banjos etc. There are illustrations from catalogues and your mandolin does appear as a line drawing in some detail if a bit small.

[MikeEdgerton]

Thanks! I will certainly do so. Buy it direct or just search online?

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Terrific. Thanks for that link. Just ordered it!

The bold text in the original answer was a link to the Amazon page for it. It's excellent.

[Screenclassics]

I received Hubert's book (I happened to have an Amazon gift card, so the timing worked well.) Anyway, its fascinating! I really appreciate the help you have given me.

My new question is does anyone on here restore old Washburns (and not just for themselves, but for others)? If so, what kind of charges. Obviously there would be a charge for parts, but I'm wondering how labor is figured. I'm not completely certain I trust the place where I've taken it. I hope it turns out to be playable, just so I can say that it is, but my main goal at this point is to have it on display in my home. Feel free to private message me if you don't want to post such information on here. I am eager to know, however, because I would need to collect it from where it currently is. Thanks!! :mandosmiley::mandosmiley:

[MikeEdgerton]

There are luthiers out there that will restore anything given the right amount of money. If all it needs is a setup (new strings, etc.) that isn't going to cost a whole lot of money. If you want it to look new then someone will probably do that but it's going to be beyond the value of the instrument in a monetary nature. If it's a shot from the heart and you don't care what it costs the sky is the limit. To be honest it doesn't look all that bad cosmetically but that doesn't mean it won't have issues. Similar instruments are for sale weekly and they don't bring a great amount of money.

[MikeEdgerton]

I see that you're in Arizona. I don't know exactly where but you might want to talk to the folks at

The Mandolin Store
12301 West Bell Rd Suite A104
Surprise, Arizona 85378

www.themandolinstore.com

They might know a local luthier that you could take it to.

[Timbofood]

If it’s going to be a decorative piece, just go get it and don’t worry too much. If you have any interest in restoration, that opens an entirely different conversation. Given the family history, I’d get it, and talk to someone, as Mike suggests. My father was a very broadly talented musician who was a little more than pleased when I took up the Mandolin. At one point, we were snooping for an old Washburn like that for my first Mandolin!

[Screenclassics]

I see that you're in Arizona. I don't know exactly where but you might want to talk to the folks at

The Mandolin Store
12301 West Bell Rd Suite A104
Surprise, Arizona 85378

www.themandolinstore.com

They might know a local luthier that you could take it to.

The weirdest thing!! When I got this message, my son and I were AT The Mandolin Store (I live about an hour away and my son is on vacation so volunteered to go with me) waiting for my new Eastman 304 to be set up!!! Dennis totally laughed when I read him the message. He was not familiar with the place where I have taken the bowlback, but his assistant was and said that with what looked like needed doing and from what I said, the guy would be more than fine. They did suggest I sit down with the guy before he actually does any work on it and make sure we're all on the same page, which I was kind of thinking of anyway. The Eastman sounded great when Dennis played it, a gig bag came with it, got the humidifier for the bag, picks, etc. Now just have to learn to play!!

[Screenclassics]

If it’s going to be a decorative piece, just go get it and don’t worry too much. If you have any interest in restoration, that opens an entirely different conversation. Given the family history, I’d get it, and talk to someone, as Mike suggests. My father was a very broadly talented musician who was a little more than pleased when I took up the Mandolin. At one point, we were snooping for an old Washburn like that for my first Mandolin!

I am anything but broadly talented, so we're going to hope they really can teach an old dog at least a few new tricks!

[MikeEdgerton]

Very nice, good luck with the Eastman.

[Screenclassics]

The serial number is about right for 1905 or 1906. The style 130 has 19 staves.The fingerboard was extended to 20 frets in 1901. The drawing does look just like your mandolin- all the details and inlays etc although it is a bit small.Sold for $30 which was quite expensive at that time. The books shows that label with the number 211939 and gives the date as 1905-6 so I think that is pretty definitive.

So, they've taken the bowlback out of the humidifier and I went by the store today to count the staves -- it actually has 23 and is a model 140, so cost $40 back in the day. Aside from not being certain on the number of staves before today, there was one wrong thing in the description in the book -- that at first I thought was just a fluke, but then later I saw a model 130 (that fit correctly with what I thought was a fluke) on either eBay or Reverb, so that is why I was kind of OCD about checking. I talked with the owner today because the manager that I've talked to before was off -- he also thinks it is in remarkable condition and sees no reason why it won't be playable. I already ordered the strings that someone recommended (GHS 240???) but they did know it needed ultra light strings. As I suspected, the ones they took off of it were not ultra light, but rather heavy. It hasn't been stringed in at least 35 years, so maybe it wasn't possible to get ultra light back then -- or at least a lot of work. Don't know. Signed up today for my lessons (weekly for a while) on the Eastman. Looking forward to it and nervous at the same time!

[Screenclassics]

Got the vintage Washburn back last night. $140 to humidify it for six days, clean it up, blow dust out of it (I guess that’s how they did it), glue the border for the fretboard (was coming loose in places) and glue a piece at the very end of the fretboard that was loose, restring (with the ultra light strings I provided, per your recommendations). Can’t beat that. Not sure the bridge is adjusted properly — strings seem too high down at that end, but it plays very nicely. Never know it’s almost 115 years old.

And after I got it back, clean, I can now see the style # stamped inside. Hunted and hunted for it before. Not 130 as first thought. Not 140 as second thought, but 225. After carefully checking everything and double checking (it seems I’m not great at counting ribs), it does more closely match the 1905 Style 225 than the other models mentioned. I am thrilled beyond all reason at how it turned out. No replaced parts. Lots of mild marks gone. Fretboard is clean as can be. Nickel plate and tailpiece are clean (Easy Off Oven Cleaner, as recommended by Google). It may have a better sound than my new Eastman!! Will post a couple pictures tomorrow. Have to be at computer to do that. Sure appreciate everyone’s help. Love Hubert Pleijsier’s book. Terrific reference. Special thanks to Mike and Nick for recommending the book and to whomever recommended the particular strings.

Jan :mandosmiley:

[NickR]

I am pleased it is all working out for you and it was interesting to know it was a slightly better model than expected. I did not recommend the GHS 240 strings but I do use them a lot. In fact as I like to bend the strings and they are my preferred strings- especially on the longer scale mandolins. I buy mine mail order from Strings & Beyond and this company is now my preferred string source- a shameless plug there but it has been earned! I hope you enjoy the lessons and make good progress!

[Screenclassics]

Coolest thing! I was trying to figure out the best way to hang the bowl back. Turns out String Swing will modify the UK/Mando hook by putting a longer stem on it (like they do for the Jumbo Guitar) and then will send direct to me! Totally jazzed about that because I do like those hangers the best. If anyone is interested, I spoke to Claudia.

As far as my lessons on the Eastman, they are going well! It's not as difficult as I thought it would be so that's encouraging. And my teacher is great. Enjoying it a lot. So appreciate the help you all have given me. I never did attach the pictures of the 1905-06 Washburn 225 after it was cleaned up, so will do so here.

*Disclaimer: the first picture and maybe the second too looked really odd when loading. Not sure what that's about because they are great pictures. The mandolin looks terrific!!

Jan

176498 176499 176500 176501 176502

[NickR]

Your mandolin looks really wonderful. I'm glad you are enjoying the lessons. I can remember when I started and for years after my family members would ask me why I did not play any tunes. In fact, I was busy mastering the tremolo and fretting a note without dropping the pick. I am currently forcing myself to learn some tunes and one is The Entertainer by Scott Joplin which I hope will shut them up. I do play a couple of J S Bach pieces but most of my playing is just jamming along which is what suits me- not an audience of ingrates.

[Screenclassics]

Your mandolin looks really wonderful. I'm glad you are enjoying the lessons. I can remember when I started and for years after my family members would ask me why I did not play any tunes. In fact, I was busy mastering the tremolo and fretting a note without dropping the pick. I am currently forcing myself to learn some tunes and one is The Entertainer by Scott Joplin which I hope will shut them up. I do play a couple of J S Bach pieces but most of my playing is just jamming along which is what suits me- not an audience of ingrates.


Thanks, Nick. The cool thing is that the only thing they did do the mandolin was put it in the humidifier for a week, clean it, re-glue the edging on part of the fretboard (it hadn't broken off, but was lose) and put new strings on it! It's amazing to me because it was never in a case, and while I know my grandfather and my father "took care of it" I don't believe anyone knew about the humidity issue and in its early years, it was moved (from one house to another) several times.

I am extremely impressed that you can play The Entertainer!! and Bach pieces too! I'll be doing well when I get to the point of being able to play Tom Dooley :grin: Right now, I'm just trying to keep track of where the fingers are on my left hand, remembering to strum ON the beat, remembering to relax my feet (I seem to clench them when practicing!) and counting or keeping an eye on my metronome app! Fun though!

[NickR]

Keep it up and you will learn a lot more. I learned the piano as a child and can play those Bach and Joplin pieces on the piano- so they are in my head although I rarely play the instrument these days. I have just transferred that knowledge over to the mandolin which I learned to play purely by ear. My problem is that if I hear the music, I can play it- but if there is no music as a guide, I cannot- unless like those pieces they were loaded into my brain, years ago. When I spent some time busking, I had what I wanted to play on CD and played it through a portable player and headphones- and played along with it! As I wrote earlier, I am determined to learn a few pieces without recourse to that methodology. I can do Jesus Joy of Man's Desiring, okay and I will force myself to do The Entertainer, as well.