A mandolin/violin relative price story

[erick]

Tonight I played a regular local club gig with my swing band, and we had a guest violinist, a woman well-known in the community as a fine classical player. She was playing an instrument inherited from her grandfather, and it was one of the loudest violins I'd ever heard. I'd brought along a DPA 4099 mic to attach to her violin, which she steadfastly refused to do, despite my assurances that it wouldn't harm the finish. I told her I was using one on my Red Diamond mandolin, which was an expensive instrument and had a varnish finish ( just like her violin) and she still refused. I didn't press it and the instrument was so loud a mic was hardly necessary , so we got through the gig and she played really well.

i asked her a little about the violin and she said it was a Ruggieri, which I'd never heard of, but when I got home I looked them up. Turns out that that these instruments are near the top of the violin food chain, and one sold recently for over $300K ! So, I guess I'm glad I'm not a violin player...

Anyway, it was an interesting perspective on the relative costs of instruments that make us really happy, and really broke, unless you happen to have the right grandfather....

[Charles E.]

It makes me smile to think of people here agonizing over spending $35.oo on a Bluechip pick when most professional violinist will have to pay $2,000.oo to $5,000.oo (on average) for a violin bow.

[Ranald]

Yeah, but you never have to replace a violin bow, nor are you going to lose it in the depths of the couch. Still, I spend far less on picks than I do on re-hairing my bow, about once a year, at about $90 a shot. Professionals would be getting the bow re-haired a few times a year. In theory, the hair comes from Mongolian stallions, because Mongolian horses have the strongest tail hairs, and the mares are constantly urinating on and weakening their tails. My luthier tells me that the hairs he purchases are supposed to have such a source, but he has no idea whether this is true. I doubt that my grandfather, who, as a sailor in Cape Breton, took up fiddle in the early 20th century, was getting hair from Mongolian stallions. More likely, he persuaded his neighbour to let him trim his horse's tail, or perhaps raided the stable at night.

[pops1]

If you are picky when you buy hair for bows you buy unbleached white hair. So only white horses. There is a difference in texture of white, salt and pepper, and black. I have had fiddle players (for Irish music) want black, but mostly it is for bass bows.

[Bob A]

Peccatte bow; $86,000.

https://www.martinswanviolins.com/dominique-peccatte-violin-bow-3/

[Br1ck]

Rule of thumb, bow is 1/3 the cost of your violin. My wife ran a youth symphony that toured Europe, and she had to have documentation for every instrument. Now these were serious high school age musicians. Average violin price, $22,000. That will be an instrument that could see you through concervatory. A cheap professional instrument starts around $60,000.

Finer fiddles make Loars feel like bargains.

[AHoyle]

So true I’m not a violinist, but my wife is and I know the cost of maintaining the things are more than all of my instruments combined. I don’t see mandolins as expensive any more when a new mando sell between 4K to 12k and on the used market for half the price they are new. Just imagine if mandolins were valued the same way violins are, and realize (as I have just recently) that we’re living in a great time for musicians there’s good instruments being made in every price range for all kinds and styles of music. What a time to be alive and playing mandolin:)

[HonketyHank]

... What a time to be alive and playing mandolin:)
Very true on lots of different levels.

[Bob Buckingham]

As a long time fiddler who also plays mandolin you guys are opening up some of the dark secrets of the violin world. But a lot of fiddlers I know do not play Ruggeri or Amati or other fiddles of that caliber. They do spend as much and sometimes more than that spent on upper end mandolins, but they also understand that the bow is half of their instrument so they have no heart burn spending what they need to get the bow that they need to get the sound and playability they seek. A lot of bows sell for under $1000 and can easily sail upward from there. But many fiddlers I know use carbon fiber bows or good wood bows that cost less than a grand. I recently interviewed a well known old time fiddler who used a revoiced Chinese fiddle, and one of my favorites is a nearly 70 year old better student grade fiddle that I bought for less than $200. It is loud and sings like crazy and proves the point it ain't the bucks it is the bang that counts.

[Jack Roberts]

Rule of thumb, bow is 1/3 the cost of your violin. ....

Ha! My bow was a little costly, but my violin was free. It's very expensive to replace the strings on my violin, though, and I've spent more money at the luthier on the violn than any mandolin. At least we don't have to refret our violins!

Violins sound bad in my hands no matter how much they cost, but I do love playing fiddle and mandolin.

[Paul Busman]

It makes me smile to think of people here agonizing over spending $35.oo on a Bluechip pick when most professional violinist will have to pay $2,000.oo to $5,000.oo (on average) for a violin bow.

I don't understand why violin bows can be SO expensive. People talk about better volume,tone,responsiveness etc. Weight and balance I can understand but why should those other factors vary so much. Basically, a bow is "just" a bundle of horse hair attached at each end to a semi flexible stick.I understand the cost of materials can vary a lot but as long as that bundle of horse hair is adjusted to the same tension on the bow,why should one bow be so radically more costly than another?

[catndahats]

sipping coffee this fine Saturday morning, and came across this thread.

I know nada about violins, and wow this thread is an eye opener; kinda the same place I was a couple years ago learning about mandolins.

My wife is a piano / guitar player, and recently got an itch for violin. I had no idea the typical violin / bow was so expensive....gee, I'm just now getting adjusted to good mandolin -vs- good guitar prices.

Quick question: Is there a good "violin forum" along the lines of mandolincafe or the other guitar forums that you frequent?

Was going to visit our local violin shop today, but wow these prices are scary high. Hope a decent starter set is considerably less $$$.

[ccravens]

Quick question: Is there a good "violin forum" along the lines of mandolincafe or the other guitar forums that you frequent?




https://www.fiddlehangout.com/

[Mandolin Cafe]

I don't understand why violin bows can be SO expensive. People talk about better volume,tone,responsiveness etc. Weight and balance I can understand but why should those other factors vary so much. Basically, a bow is "just" a bundle of horse hair attached at each end to a semi flexible stick.I understand the cost of materials can vary a lot but as long as that bundle of horse hair is adjusted to the same tension on the bow,why should one bow be so radically more costly than another?

Never tire of seeing you wade into these discussions while linking to your site where you sell $300+ penny whistles. Not criticizing the price, mind you, and I've seen your reactions to our pointing this out before. It is what it is. Carry on.

[onassis]

Was going to visit our local violin shop today, but wow these prices are scary high. Hope a decent starter set is considerably less $$$

It doesn't have to be crazy expensive, any more than the mandolin does. In fact, I would say it's far easier to find a good inexpensive fiddle than it is to find a comparable mandolin. Fiddles have been produced in such volume for such a long time that there are always decent fiddles around. You just have to know where to look. If you know any local old-time fiddlers, they usually seem to know people who have them for sale by the dozen.

[catndahats]

thanks guys----I appreciate you guys a bunch. My post was sorta off-topic, but again thanks for the input. Love this place!

[Ranald]

Was going to visit our local violin shop today, but wow these prices are scary high. Hope a decent starter set is considerably less $$$.

Don't take this discussion of prices too seriously. It's a bit like deciding you can't buy a car after seeing on a website that some cars sell for as much as a million dollars, and that a part for those cars can cost $20,000, or like choosing not to go to hotels because you heard that a hotel room can cost $1,500 a night. I can almost guarantee you, that the fiddler you're seeing at the local jam doesn't have a violin worth $10,000 or a bow worth $2,000. I play my grandfather's fiddle, evaluated at about $1,800 in the 1970's. Luthiers tell me it's worth about the same now. I bought a good bow at the same time, made of a no longer available wood, which cost about $200 (I paid in instalments), but would probably be worth more now if I hadn't chipped it. I have no desire to change either item. A beginner can buy a decent violin for considerably less, perhaps $500 -- a little more for a keeper -- and get a beginners bow for less than a hundred. I'm not a concert violinist, and do not have perfect pitch, so I'm happy with what I have. Graham Townsend, an outstanding Canadian fiddler, who played some fine old violins by European masters (he bought them relatively cheaply from a WWII soldier, who purchased them in France), played my fiddle, complimented it, and made it sound very good. As "onassis" says above (post #12), there are many good second-hand violins to be had at cheap prices, though if you go to thrift shops, it's helpful if you can visit them with someone who knows a great deal about the structure of violins. Unfortunately, violins at thrift stores are usually out of tune, short a couple of strings, and lacking rosin and perhaps a bow. In Canada, I 'd be thinking of $750 - $1,000 for a decent fiddle that you might never want to replace. However, if you're concert master with an international orchestra, you'll have different standards.

re bows: There is a great difference in bows, and, as with picks, the choice of which you prefer is personal. I can't really explain why one bow is good and another not, or one is good for me while another is not, but give me a few bows to try out and I notice considerable difference. I've never had the nerve to go into the violin shop and test a $20,000 bow. If I ever become a $20,000 player, I might.

[Bob Buckingham]

I don't understand why violin bows can be SO expensive. People talk about better volume,tone,responsiveness etc. Weight and balance I can understand but why should those other factors vary so much. Basically, a bow is "just" a bundle of horse hair attached at each end to a semi flexible stick.I understand the cost of materials can vary a lot but as long as that bundle of horse hair is adjusted to the same tension on the bow,why should one bow be so radically more costly than another?

They are way more than a bundle of horse hair... they are precisely handmade, balanced fulcrums that enable the user to execute passages, fast and slow on this stick that is not, does not act like and does not work like a pick. You pick and string and get an immediate response. You bow a string and you get a micro second delay then a response. There is an art to making bows and they are far more sophisticated than picks.

[foldedpath]

I don't understand why violin bows can be SO expensive.

As I understand it, part of the high cost of a quality bow is that Pernambuco wood is considered *the* most desirable wood for a high-end bow, and the trees are nearing extinction. There are re-planting efforts but I don't know how successful they are. Export is likely to be banned soon.

I've heard of one bow maker that stopped making bows, because they had worked their way through the stash of Pernambuco they had stockpiled over the years. Apparently nothing else was suitable as a replacement, at least for that bow maker.

That isn't the only factor in the high cost of fiddle bows; the reputation of the individual bow maker is also a big part of it. But it's one reason for the cost.

[Bob A]

As I understand it, part of the high cost of a quality bow is that Pernambuco wood is considered *the* most desirable wood for a high-end bow, and the trees are nearing extinction. There are re-planting efforts but I don't know how successful they are. Export is likely to be banned soon.



Also only a very small amount of pernambuco is suitable for bow production.

[Caleb]

Cool thread...

The fiddle/violin is my favorite instrument, though I can't play one to save my life. I just can't get the posture down or get used to holding my left hand out like that.

Years ago I got my wife a violin setup (case, bow included) from Stephen Perry for about 5 bills. I am a pretty good judge of tone in acoustic instruments, and to me the thing sounds flat out amazing. Sometimes I'll just drag the bow across the strings to hear it ring out.

I enjoy cruising YouTube and finding videos of fiddlers vs listening to classical violin players (though I also listen to Hilary Hahn, et al, sometimes too). I have often wondered if violinists/fiddlers critique the tone of other instruments the way we mandolinists and guitarists do? It's easy to spot a lousy mandolin/guitar even in the hands of a great player. But most of the time, to me at least, a fiddle sounds great as long as the player is decent. And sometimes, again, to me at least, the more homespun the playing style, the more I seem to like it.

I watched some stuff on Punch Bros once and they were talking about their instruments. Thile, Noam and Chris all have very expensive instruments, but Gabe was talking about how he plays a regular old German-made fiddle. He gets a great sound out of it.

[allenhopkins]

My old band shared a benefit concert program with a classical cellist about 30 years ago. (Also on the bill was Lou Gramm of Foreigner, doing a solo acoustic set.) Talking with the cellist after the gig, she said her instruments was an 18th century Italian cello, a Guarneri if I remember correctly, that had sold for $350K to a Philadelphia syndicate that was loaning it to her for performances.

Maybe that's the secret for my finally obtaining a Lloyd Loar F-5 -- finding a group of people who'll pool their resources, buy one, and then just let me use it.

Good luck with that idea...

[Louise NM]

Once you get into the antique market, prices for violins and bows skyrocket. A year or so ago, a Tourte bow sold at auction for $687,000. Prices around $200,000 are common. New ones? I don't remember seeing anything at or over $10K. Just like a signed Lloyd Loar, prices climb with provenance and age.

Making bows is every bit as much of an art as making instruments, and matching a bow to a violin is just as particular as matching a pick and a mandolin. I don't understand why, but it's nowhere near as simple as it may look. Different bows draw a very different tone out of the same instrument. They all handle a little differently, and yes, there's a huge difference between a $500 bow, a $1500 one, and a $7000 one. Like with anything else, the law of diminishing returns kicks in at some point, and every player has to decide where they can be content.

They have made huge advances in making carbon fiber bows over the last 20 years or so, and the best of them are very, very good. There are many players who will probably never want or need anything else. Pernambuco bows, though, are still the standard everything else is measured against.

[Tom Wright]

I sold my tired Sartory viola bow for $5,000, and used a $500 Coda bow until I retired. I will say the 100-year-old French bow had a pretty sound but the Coda had better control of expression. Tone was pretty good, not great.

The tone yielded by a bow, aside from its dynamic response, is mainly the result of what frequencies the material absorbs and dissipates. Some frequency ranges may get reflected by the material, emphasizing that timbre, but the main job is to have a material that does not soak up tone. A bowmaker I knew bought a major pile of pernambuco and then chose pieces by testing for speed of sound as an indication of hardness and elasticity.

[LadysSolo]

I don't understand why violin bows can be SO expensive. People talk about better volume,tone,responsiveness etc. Weight and balance I can understand but why should those other factors vary so much. Basically, a bow is "just" a bundle of horse hair attached at each end to a semi flexible stick.I understand the cost of materials can vary a lot but as long as that bundle of horse hair is adjusted to the same tension on the bow,why should one bow be so radically more costly than another?

It DOES make a difference! I expressed some years ago about wanting to learn violin, so my partner bought me a "starter" violin for Christmas. I worked with it for awhile, and we were at an auction a few months later where they were auctioning a violin. One of the family members played it a bit (it was an estate auction,) and it sounded fabulous! I bought it for $150, brought it home, and tried the bow on my starter violin. The starter violin sounded 100% better! So the bow CAN make a big difference!

[David Lewis]

Is it harder to build a violin than a mandolin? I ask out of curiosity. It seems to me that the skill level is the same, but I’m not a word worker and have never built an instrument and have nothing but admiration for those that do. But could that be another factor in the price difference..

[Paul Busman]

Never tire of seeing you wade into these discussions while linking to your site where you sell $300+ penny whistles. Not criticizing the price, mind you, and I've seen your reactions to our pointing this out before. It is what it is. Carry on.

Private message sent.

Thanks for all who have so far posted constructive answers to my sincere question.

[DougC]

Violin bows are very complex and subtle things. And like violins, they all look the same to the inexperienced. Adding to what has been said, a bow needs to perform well. It needs to track straight, bounce off the string in a controlled fashion, start and stop in a very exact way, pull a beautiful sound from a very short distance, not bottom out when playing hard and be able to play clearly at very low volume.

[Jack Roberts]

Violin bows are very complex and subtle things. .....

According to Phil Salazar, the story goes that in the bow workshop, they build them first, then a violinist comes in and sorts them by how they play. They can look exactly the same, and be made exactly the same from the same raw materials, but the selling price will vary significantly depending on the opinion of the person sorting them.

Has anyone else heard this?

[Paul Busman]

Violin bows are very complex and subtle things. And like violins, they all look the same to the inexperienced. Adding to what has been said, a bow needs to perform well. It needs to track straight, bounce off the string in a controlled fashion, start and stop in a very exact way, pull a beautiful sound from a very short distance, not bottom out when playing hard and be able to play clearly at very low volume.

That's helpful. Are any of these characteristics tweakable once the bow is finished? EG- thinning the stick (correct term?) a tad to reduce weight and/or increase flexibility.
Interesting tidbit... while looking up Pernambuco (alternate name is Brazilwood), I came across the fact that Brazil was named after this wood and not vice versa:

Perhaps the only wood that was so famous, it was responsible for the naming of an entire nation. When Portuguese ships discovered the trees on the coast of South America, they found that the wood yielded a red dye—which made for a very valuable and lucrative trading commodity. They named the tree pau brasil, the term pau meaning wood, and brasil meaning red/ember-like. Such a vigourous trade resulted from this wood that early sailors and merchants referred to the land itself as Terra do Brasil, or simply, the “Land of Brazil”—and the name stuck.

[Louise NM]

According to Phil Salazar, the story goes that in the bow workshop, they build them first, then a violinist comes in and sorts them by how they play. They can look exactly the same, and be made exactly the same from the same raw materials, but the selling price will vary significantly depending on the opinion of the person sorting them. This would be done before anyone would be able to try them.

Has anyone else heard this?

I don't know how true that is. A workshop or individual maker will use different fittings for different quality bows. Gold on the best, then sterling, then nickel silver for the winding and the metal on the frog, etc.

Also, one person's preferences don't mean that everyone else will agree.

[Dave Reiner]

This! And I'll add that the best bows can draw an even and beautiful tone over their entire length without having to press down too much. This requires a trained maker who understands the wood, and the subtleties of its strength, thickness, and camber. It's different from the relatively instant contact of a mandolin pick across a string. I love both instruments, but there's a reason really fine bows cost 100x or 200x the cost of a blue chip pick :-). There is one commonality, though - your bow needs to match your fiddle to bring out the instrument's best tones, just as certain picks seem to match certain mandolins.

Dave

They are way more than a bundle of horse hair... they are precisely handmade, balanced fulcrums that enable the user to execute passages, fast and slow on this stick that is not, does not act like and does not work like a pick. You pick and string and get an immediate response. You bow a string and you get a micro second delay then a response. There is an art to making bows and they are far more sophisticated than picks.

[pops1]

That's helpful. Are any of these characteristics tweakable once the bow is finished? EG- thinning the stick (correct term?) a tad to reduce weight and/or increase flexibility.
Interesting tidbit... while looking up Pernambuco (alternate name is Brazilwood), I came across the fact that Brazil was named after this wood and not vice versa:

Perhaps the only wood that was so famous, it was responsible for the naming of an entire nation. When Portuguese ships discovered the trees on the coast of South America, they found that the wood yielded a red dye—which made for a very valuable and lucrative trading commodity. They named the tree pau brasil, the term pau meaning wood, and brasil meaning red/ember-like. Such a vigourous trade resulted from this wood that early sailors and merchants referred to the land itself as Terra do Brasil, or simply, the “Land of Brazil”—and the name stuck.

Brazil wood is not the same as Pernambuco, it is a inferior substitute. Snake wood is another. These woods are hard to work on and dull tools quickly.

[Christine Robins]

Getting back to the original question about relative prices of fiddles & mandos, here's my story:

For fiddling, I'm happy with my $200 garage-sale discovery. It's a pre-war eastern-European instrument that looks like crap, but sounds fine and is very comfortable and responsive. I've played $8,000 violins that I didn't like as much. I ended up selling the violin I'd been using that had cost $2500.

But my beloved bow is a Pernambuco that I bought 15 years ago for $700. I choose it after spending an hour at a major violin shop trying out a dozen bows in that price range, including carbon-fiber ones. Bows can vary tremendously in weight, balance, springiness, and responsiveness. They're like an extension of your hand, in a way that picks are not.

On the other hand, my mando is a Collings MT, about $2500 new.

YMMV!

[DougC]

That's helpful. Are any of these characteristics tweakable once the bow is finished? EG- thinning the stick (correct term?) a tad to reduce weight and/or increase flexibility.


Bow makers 'tweak' used bows but not by 'thinning the stick'. The stick is usually as thin as possible in the right places and there is no 'going back'. What happens however is that a heavier frog is attached. But that mostly effects the overall balance. The performance of the bow as I mentioned earlier, depends on the curve, or camber as well as the thickness at every point along the taper of the stick. This exacting thickness-ing greatly affects the sound that comes from the bow, not just the performance. What Bow makers can do to 'tweak' or restore a bow is to restore the camber as well as to straighten a warped bow by gently heating the stick and holding it into place. The wood has a 'memory' of it's carved shape and almost by magic, returns to it's shape.

As for sorting bows, yes sometimes a violinist helps choose the value of bows. But the bowmaker knows their qualities and prices them accordingly. Violin shops have their valuations as well, but the figures are agreed upon with the bow maker before they are sold.

[Jeff Mando]

For fiddling, I'm happy with my $200 garage-sale discovery. It's a pre-war eastern-European instrument that looks like crap, but sounds fine and is very comfortable and responsive. I've played $8,000 violins that I didn't like as much. I ended up selling the violin I'd been using that had cost $2500.

Vintage/antique violins are the one area you can really get a bargain if you know what you are looking for and trust your ears. Especially, since many are unbranded. You can't judge a book by its cover, as they say! Unfortunately, most garage sale violins are not setup to play, so you can't really tell if they are indeed a bargain unless you go ahead and buy it, then spend another $150 on a setup, before you can hear the sound.

[Dave Sheets]

Bows seem to interact with both the instrument and the player in a complex way. If you sit with a stringed instrument player and listen to them try different bows, you can hear the differences. If they switch instruments, the bow that sounded great a moment ago will no longer sound so good. You really have to listen to the combination of the three. Yes, it seems unlikely, but use your ears.

A good guitar usually sounds (to me anyway) good even in the hands of an inexperienced player. But a mandolin takes a bit more experience to get the best out of it. And fiddles? The best players get a good sound out of anything, and it takes a good player to really get everything out of superb instrument. Duffers like me, uhm, not so much :).

[Paul Busman]

Brazil wood is not the same as Pernambuco, it is a inferior substitute. Snake wood is another. These woods are hard to work on and dull tools quickly.

That's interesting. One of my Google search hits came up with the thing I posted.
I've worked with Snakewood. It's gorgeous stuff but as Pops1 says, it's difficult to work with and is VERY prone to splitting.

[Sterling]

I’m a retired middle school band director and professional trumpet player. On all of the trumpet websites there are similar complaints about the cost of hand made or boutique trumpets. Then someone chimes in about the cost of a bassoon, cello, or violin. We get humble and thankful really quick. My most expensive trumpets are around $6,000.00 and hand made trumpets range from $2,000.00 to $30,000.00. My Jacobsen #37, Eastman 615, and Eastman815 Mandocello are all deals.

[pops1]

My daughter needs a better flute, next step up is $20+ grand. Preferred flute $65,000. Flutes don't even play in tune you have to intonate with your embouchure. Her flute now is triple my mandolin. There are techniques that stress the flute and she can't do them on her present flute, a better flute will allow her to do these techniques, it's not just wanting, but needing. I think we have it pretty good as others have mentioned.

[foldedpath]

My daughter needs a better flute, next step up is $20+ grand. Preferred flute $65,000. Flutes don't even play in tune you have to intonate with your embouchure. Her flute now is triple my mandolin. There are techniques that stress the flute and she can't do them on her present flute, a better flute will allow her to do these techniques, it's not just wanting, but needing. I think we have it pretty good as others have mentioned.

She should switch from Classical to Irish. :)

Just kidding, but as you probably know, in Irish trad we play either wooden antique orchestra flutes from the mid to late 19th Century, or modern replicas of the same type of flute. In both cases, it's hard to spend more than $5,000 - $6,000 unless you're collecting rare antiques that probably won't be played. Antique flutes actually aren't all that desirable because 1) wooden flutes don't age well, they often crack or warp, and 2) the pitch standards were still all over the place in the 19th Century so they often don't work well at A=440Hz.

The modern "Irish" flute makers still can't charge exorbitant prices because the market is so small and specialized, and even an 8-key conical bore wooden flute just isn't that complicated to make. I have two fairly high-end "Irish" flutes. My first was a newly-made keyless one for $1,600 (current price is $2,000) and the recent one is an 8-key from a modern maker bought used for $3,500. That's $1,000 less than I spent on my Lebeda mandolin. I think new, that flute would be $5,000. Still about the same as a quality luthier-made mandolin, until you get up into the "big names" at $10,000+

Of course I know that the Classical flute world is different, and the repertoire is far more demanding in terms of pitch range and technique, if not in "years to get good" which can take a lifetime on either type of flute. At my age and late start I'll always be just a dabbler, but I'm having fun with it.

[Stephen Perry]

Thank you: "Years ago I got my wife a violin setup (case, bow included) from Stephen Perry for about 5 bills. I am a pretty good judge of tone in acoustic instruments, and to me the thing sounds flat out amazing. Sometimes I'll just drag the bow across the strings to hear it ring out." I do enjoy making the instruments sing.

From my perspective, the instrument is the person playing. Some are more sensitive than others, most expect different things from other musicians, some are blunt instruments, some are incredibly sensitive and nuanced. Much depends on the sensitivity of the player's hearing, which is something learned. Listeners are rarely finely attuned. So there's lots of noise in opinions. I have found over the many years that the most solid opinions come not from players, but from those who adjust and tweak and make and otherwise deal with the nuts and bolts of things, as an intermediary between players and their equipment. A player gets used to one thing, then tends to want one that's the same but better. An adjuster or someone who hears acutely, with educated intelligence, has an entirely different listening experience. I've had people listen to fiddles and be unable to hear any difference. I've also sat next to someone who heard a recording and opined that the violin sounded like such and such del Gesu, without even lifting his eyes from his work. No big deal. Of course, he was correct. This was not a high fidelity system.

To bows. There's balance, in a complex way, with the hair being pushed and pulled along the string, moving the fulcrum. There's the vibration of the bow in response, which can vary greatly. There's the stiffness. Resonance. Damping. All kinds of things. In nice carbon bows, there may (in the better ones) be layers of carbon fiber with different orientations. Add some Kevlar. Other mystery materials. A filling foam or whatever that damps all that. And varies along the length. Based upon a broken Coda GX violin bow I have or had. That's the easy part - the assembly. The design of the camber, distribution of weight, etc. And that's a bow that can be designed. For a wood bow, one has to choose and shape the wood to perform. Built to the numbers out of mystery wood not really evaluated, the bow will work, and the player learns to play around it. Built by a master, the stick becomes alive. The best bow I have held I didn't play. I picked it up, and got goosebumps. Tapped the tip against my palm and was riveted by its solid liveliness, the incredible effortless roundness of its response envelope. Took about 1/2 second to realize I had one of the world's most subtle creations in my hands. Of course, it was very very expensive, kept in a vault. But it wasn't a bow a fiddler would like!


Modify? Yes, I can work a stiff bow by removing wood to make it a bit better, if it's a bad bow. More importantly, I can often (always?) get the vibration worked out. It's tough. Just a little here, a little there, bit by bit, like mandovoodoo for bows. I've done fishing rods, too. Then a simple French polish of the stick. It's a subtle but effective difference.

My not so subtle opinion, which nobody ever listens to, is that players should find a bow that works with them, dances with them. Then find the instrument that matches well, that the bow likes and that likes the bow, in the hands of the musician, such that the combination of body-bow-violin not only does what the musician wants, but does it in a way that the musician really likes. That's a smaller subset of what will do what is needed. And most coming through and trying things don't really discriminate in hearing, simply muddling through listening for what they like, rather than carefully considering and assessing performance.

However, in general, a Coda GX (maybe $800) or Luma (my favorite at cheaper), or a good silver mounted special wood stick (about $1400) will suffice for most reasonably sensitive players. Does what's needed. Somewhat limiting if doing subtle or fancy stuff. But not much. The amount of work to get what one wants out of the less expensive is a bit greater than with the near ideal. But that's not critical unless one is spending all one's time flogging the poor things, and is performing for people. Or is simply picky, and enjoys driving the Ferrari to work once a week, just to keep it exercised.

I have a "bow observations" blurb somewhere on my chaotic site, for those who can't get enough blather here!

[Jim Garber]

I don't understand why violin bows can be SO expensive. People talk about better volume,tone,responsiveness etc. Weight and balance I can understand but why should those other factors vary so much. Basically, a bow is "just" a bundle of horse hair attached at each end to a semi flexible stick.I understand the cost of materials can vary a lot but as long as that bundle of horse hair is adjusted to the same tension on the bow,why should one bow be so radically more costly than another?

Hah! You are joking, right? By the same token a mandolin is just a roundish box with metal strings run across the top. And a flute is just a pipe top blow air in.

You can get a bow, of course, for under $40 that will be playable by some—in fact you can get a violin or mandolin for about the same price. I don't know if you violin or not but the workmanship that goes into a fine bow can be very high especially on hand-made ones. Quality wood and variations in flexibility,wieght and overall balance affects the playability of a bow.

Beginners may not have any problem but the more advanced players will find some bows affect their tone and dexterity in their playing.

Whoops, I missed Steve Perry's extensive post above as I was writing my modest one.

[pops1]

She should switch from Classical to Irish. :)

She does play some Irish, went to Ireland twice with an Irish band. She also has an Irish flute, but being small the stretches are hard for her, tho she does play it. She is mostly classical tho and committed to that. A little bragging, she has played in several countries and in concert with folks like Harry Connick Jr. among others. Proud dad :)

[Jeff Hildreth]

Full disclosure:
I hustled violins and bows, and sold pernambuco from 1979-1984. I was known for the finest available pernambuco blanks and had customers come ( actually show up at my door step in Aptos , Calif) from as far as Paris. I had a regular route from San Diego to Vancouver , Canada driving my 1971 VW bus the "Speed Queen" and sleeping in same for many a night. ,
and sold to many well known bow makers. This in my off time from my coast to coast commute corporate gig. Yes I am aware that this alienates many of you but it is a fact.

Bow making is a craft with 3 distinct "schools". Italian, French and German. American is an amalgam in my opinion.
In every craft, to include violin and bow making, there are artists. Not all bow makers are artists as not all violin makers are artists.
The finest melodeon ( yes I play the box) I ever played was a plebian ersatz beech/maple/pine plane Jane 2 row from the thirties and I will withhold the maker as I believe them to be the best in the word and no it is not Castagnari ( I have owned 14) or Saltarelle who do not make accordeons ) and do not want them to be accessible by the ..

My observation was there were more "artists" in decades and centuries past than there are now.

My instructor/mentor (can't handle that word but use it as it is the new yupspeak) in bow making was Mr. Bolander of Santa Cruz, Calif.

My personal opinion is that much like the "seriousness of the crime" is more important than guilt, the occupation of bow maker or violin maker has more import than the result.

A violin makes no sound without a bow, so the violin is hostage to the bow. Hence the importance of the bow. Fact or fiction. Hence the outrageous prices. My wife is a highly skilled violinist former 1st chair at a prestigious California private University.. She has a fine Italian lesser named violin and 2 very fine 19th century European bows found by me for each under $100.


I have played many mandolins which were superbly made and sounded and played far less than the asking price, likewise I have played many mandolins that were grossly underpriced.

There is as much work in building a mandolin as there is a violin, perhaps more.

But what makes a mass produced off the shelf Martin guitar worth more than a completely hand crafted 2 row melodeon from Italy.

M A R K E T I N G .

[Jeff Hildreth]

All pernambuco is "pao brasil"....

Not all "pao brasil" is pernambuco.

[Stephen Perry]

Hey Jeff! Cool stuff. I noticed the American work is often hard to kind of place in the schools.

I made a bow once. Ended up with about a $400 student bow as to performance with about as much time as making half a violin. I gave it away. Never did it again. Too much angst, too much blood!!!!

What I was saying, the bow is the thing. I have an OK one, but got talked out of a magic Hill years ago, still miss it.

Fun times.

[Rewjeo]

I work in a violin shop selling violins/violas/cellos and bows, and I can say that a lot of the pricing is entirely legitimate, but a lot is also extra-musical.

As far as I know, violin-family instruments really are much harder to make than mandolins/guitars/etc. Additionally, the violin (for classical players) needs to be more capable than most instruments because any professional-level player needs to be capable of playing some seriously virtuosic music - for instance, when the Tchaik concerto was first written in the 1870s, it was considered nearly unplayable, and it's now expected for everyone to be able to play it. And by the 1870s, violin virtuosos were well established - Paganini had come and gone and been followed by multiple generations, after all.

I have much less experience with mandolins, but it's really obvious listening to and especially playing a nice violin. We've got a $35k violin right now that plays like butter and sings out evenly across the full register, though its tone leaves something to be desired. I'm in the process of buying a $15k violin (getting a full $5k off for being an employee!) and, while I much prefer its tone, it is clearly inferior when it comes to what's technically feasible on it. Part of what makes world-class players world-class is their instruments - it doesn't matter how good a player is, a plywood instrument from Amazon will not cut through an orchestra or play clearly in the upper register like a Strad (or even a modern solid-wood Chinese workshop instrument) and it will not play cleanly or clearly enough for many virtuosic pieces.

Bows (along with, well, everything) also make a huge difference. We've got a $5k bow right now that is exquisitely balanced and pulls a richer tone out of violins than most. It is very clean and takes very little effort to play (this with that violin I mentioned from before is just a dream to play - it takes no work to play almost anything). At "only" $5k, it has its flaws, but it just feels wonderful to play with. I can make a $500 violin with a $60 bow sound nice, but it just takes so much more effort, and it never sounds as nice as the more expensive instruments and bows.

Then there's all sorts of other factors that make a difference. Bridges can make a huge difference. Strings can make a huge difference. Even your shoulder rest can make a huge difference. All aspects are very interdependent, too. Hilary Hahn sounds great using Dominant strings on her Vuillaume, but my violin doesn't take to them very well, for instance. And different players will have different amounts of success depending on their playing style and personal taste.

Then there's what I call "value as a museum piece." We've got a $200k violin right now that is... nice... but I certainly don't like it as much as ones that are 10-15% its price. But it was made by a very, very famous maker, so it costs that much. On the other hand, part of why my violin is as "cheap" as it is is because it was made by a little-known German maker. How legitimate you find this is up to you - personally I care most about my instrument's sound, and the maker/history is just the icing on the cake - but it's part of the pricing. I had a guitar player once compare it to getting Jimi Hendrix's guitar - even if you have another one that sounds just as nice, Jimi Hendrix's will be worth way more. But if you just want a guitar that sounds nice, you can save yourself an awful lot of money by buying something else.

[yankees1]

Yeah, but you never have to replace a violin bow, nor are you going to lose it in the depths of the couch. Still, I spend far less on picks than I do on re-hairing my bow, about once a year, at about $90 a shot. Professionals would be getting the bow re-haired a few times a year. In theory, the hair comes from Mongolian stallions, because Mongolian horses have the strongest tail hairs, and the mares are constantly urinating on and weakening their tails. My luthier tells me that the hairs he purchases are supposed to have such a source, but he has no idea whether this is true. I doubt that my grandfather, who, as a sailor in Cape Breton, took up fiddle in the early 20th century, was getting hair from Mongolian stallions. More likely, he persuaded his neighbour to let him trim his horse's tail, or perhaps raided the stable at night.

You do have to replace the horse hair on a bow though .

[Ranald]

You do have to replace the horse hair on a bow though .

Yes, "at about $90 a shot", as I said in the second line of quote you posted.

This is quite an interesting and informative discussion, as is this other fiddle thread:
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/threads/143655-Fiddle-(not-mando-content)

[Paul Busman]

Hah! You are joking, right? By the same token a mandolin is just a roundish box with metal strings run across the top. And a flute is just a pipe top blow air in.
.

I was indeed partially joking,which is why I put the word "just" in quotation marks. I was oversimplifying intentionally. I know that there's lot more to a bow than "just" a bundle of horsehair, but didn't know exactly why.

[mandroid]

Stradivarius violins and cellos , go for millions ...

[Jim Garber]

Stradivarius violins and cellos , go for millions ...

Also, the violas, too. And the guitars (I think there are only five and only one that is playable - see below) and mandolins (only two). Mandolin in SD (http://collections.nmmusd.org/PluckedStrings/Mandolins/StradMandolin/StradMandolin.html). Mandolin in UK (https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/instruments/violin/stradivarius-violin-history-facts-pictures/mandolino-coristo/).

174983 174984


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGKan6eX5ug

[Northwest Steve]

My daughter plays Violin/Fiddle. So have bought a few instruments and bows for her. I am somewhat of a wheeler dealer and can usually find a good deal if I have time to look. I am generally a quick study but I have never has a harder time figuring out prices for something than violins.

[catndahats]

just a follow-up:
We did go to the local violin shop yesterday and found my wife a beginner violin set that was affordable. Wife had no idea that she was about to get an early birthday surprise.

The shop is Duckworth Violin in New Braunfels, TX. Gotta say, that is one cool tiny shop. It was a great experience actually----very tidy small shop on the square downtown like you would imagine was typical a hundred years ago---fiddles, basses, a few mandolins and guitars tucked everywhere.

The owner helped us, turns out he was / is Robert Earl Keen's long time friend and fiddle player. Very interesting and patient with us....told him we know nothing about fiddles, he hands my wife an instrument sitting out on the table and a bow and says, "Don't drop it---that bow is $2500." She quickly sat it down gently on the table.Told him we were looking for a beginner set up and brought out some to show us. Imports the bodies and sets them up himself...just a very cool experience, gave us a ton of tips, made for a big surprise---and one very happy wife!
Doesn't get better than that!

[Jim Garber]

These days there are some excellent Chinese and other Asian violins. The key is to do what you did and buy from a reputable shop where you have some recourse if there are problems. You can get super deals on eBay but you can also get stuck with nice looking but horribly sounding violins.

[catndahats]

so true. Learned this with mandolins and guitars---set up is key to getting off to a good start.

When at the violin shop, there was a "nice looking" violin setting out on the table. The owner showed it to us explaining someone just brought it in trying to get it fixed....the neck was plastic, bought online. Any repair would cost more than it was worth---neck flexed like a spaghetti noodle. They left it and said to just give it away.


These days there are some excellent Chinese and other Asian violins. The key is to do what you did and buy from a reputable shop where you have some recourse if there are problems. You can get super deals on eBay but you can also get stuck with nice looking but horribly sounding violins.

[Northwest Steve]

just a follow-up:
The owner helped us, turns out he was / is Robert Earl Keen's long time friend and fiddle player. Very interesting and patient with us....told him we know nothing about fiddles, he hands my wife an instrument sitting out on the table and a bow and says, "Don't drop it---that bow is $2500." She quickly sat it down gently on the table.Told him we were looking for a beginner set up and brought out some to show us. Imports the bodies and sets them up himself...just a very cool experience, gave us a ton of tips, made for a big surprise---and one very happy wife!
Doesn't get better than that!


Nice that you have a good local shop and someone knowledgeable. We have a very good local luthier that specializes in violins. I was there with my daughter getting a new bridge and set-up. She has a Maggini copy that is a very nice violin. He hands here another Maggini and lets her play it. He mentioned what it was worth and she did not catch it. When we got outside I asked if she knew what she had just played. She did not and was shocked when I told her it was a $25k violin...….She did not seem to think it was 10 times better than hers luckily.

[Stephen Perry]

Setup is so much. I like making my slightly fat soundposts like this: https://trianglestrings.com/soundpost/
Peg fitting isn't a thing to ignore https://trianglestrings.com/fittingpegs/
A real bridge takes a goodly amount of time. This is my general approach now: https://trianglestrings.com/carving-a-violin-bridge/

Add in planning the fingerboard, getting the neck shape right, and adjusting/voicing, and there's 4 hours in a setup pretty quickly. How can that be done on a $350 instrument? I haven't found a way!

[Brian B]

According to Michael Dregni, in his book about Django and the Hot Club, Stephane Grapelli bought only the cheapest violins he could find.

[pheffernan]

My daughter plays Violin/Fiddle. So have bought a few instruments and bows for her. I am somewhat of a wheeler dealer and can usually find a good deal if I have time to look. I am generally a quick study but I have never has a harder time figuring out prices for something than violins.

As a thought exercise, what would be the mandolin equivalent of this fiddle? Does it qualify as a good deal or at the very least good value?

https://reverb.com/item/19200098-bob-kogut-fiddle-ramona-120

bKfSwDPrApc

[allenhopkins]

Well, here's a comment on violin pricing, quoted from Myra Brooks Welch's poem:

'Twas battered and scarred, and the auctioneer
Thought it scarcely worth his while
To waste much time on the old violin,
But held it up with a smile.
"What am I bidden, good folks," he cried,
"Who'll start the bidding for me?"
"A dollar, a dollar. Then two! Only two?
Two dollars, and who'll make it three?"

"Three dollars, once; three dollars, twice;
Going for three…" But no,
From the room, far back, a grey-haired man
Came forward and picked up the bow;
Then wiping the dust from the old violin,
And tightening the loosened strings,
He played a melody pure and sweet,
As a caroling angel sings.

The music ceased, and the auctioneer,
With a voice that was quiet and low,
Said: "What am I bid for the old violin?"
And he held it up with the bow.
"A thousand dollars, and who'll make it two?
Two thousand! And who'll make it three?
Three thousand, once; three thousand, twice,
And going and gone," said he.

The people cheered, but some of them cried,
"We do not quite understand.
What changed its worth?" Swift came the reply:
"The touch of the Master's hand."

[ThorneSwift]

Hi All, I bought my violin from Shar which is nice because they are so good about sending out instruments in groups so one can try them out. I played a number of violins in a wide price range, and my favorite wasn't at the top of the price list. The "bargain" Carlo Lamberti Master Series priced at the time, $1,750 was to my ears the best. Adding my personal favorite strings which definitely are more expensive than mandolin strings adds to it. Eat your hearts out in this next part. About 30 years ago I bought a junk violin and bow at an antiques shop. The violin was a bad German student violin from the 1800's that was in pieces, but the bow was made by W.E. Hill. I do have a modern made bow that set me back about 600 large, but that Hill bow that I paid almost nothing for is by far the finest bow I've ever touched.

[Jim Garber]

As a thought exercise, what would be the mandolin equivalent of this fiddle? Does it qualify as a good deal or at the very least good value?

https://reverb.com/item/19200098-bob-kogut-fiddle-ramona-120

bKfSwDPrApc

Apples vs. oranges. Certainly you can't compare a fiddle to a mandolin. Are you asking what you could get in a mandolin that cost $4000? Of course, you are also hearing on this video Bob Kogut (I assume it is him) and his expertise at getting excellent sound from that violin. It sounds goot to me and would certainly want to try some of his instruments. And from the sound I hear that doesn't seem to be an unreasonable price for that.

As to equivalent mandolins: I haven't a clue. I have played some $3000 mandolins that sounded great and own one that cost me almost $4000 that I love.

[pheffernan]

Apples vs. oranges. Certainly you can't compare a fiddle to a mandolin. Are you asking what you could get in a mandolin that cost $4000? Of course, you are also hearing on this video Bob Kogut (I assume it is him) and his expertise at getting excellent sound from that violin. It sounds goot to me and would certainly want to try some of his instruments. And from the sound I hear that doesn't seem to be an unreasonable price for that.

Thanks for answering my query Jim, even if I didn’t articulate it as clearly as I might have done. There is a saw around here that one should expect to pay twice as much for an archtop mandolin as one would for an equivalent flattop guitar. While they are undoubtedly apples and oranges, I was wondering if there were some such equivalence when considering fiddles. I feel like I have a pretty good handle on what $4000 can command on the mandolin market currently. I would expect a used A5 from an established, reputable builder like Will Kimble, Paul Duff, or Tom Ellis. I feel far less certain about the fiddle market, however, and as this Kogut fiddle caught my eye, I thought I’d use it to try to improve my understanding. Thanks for adding to my store of knowledge.

Patrick

[Jim Garber]

Ah, I get it (I think). If I am not mistaken, Bob Kogut aims his market at fiddle players who generally would spend less than classical; folks. I know a few current makers and that price for a quality handmade violin I guess would be more like for someone who is relatively new at building. One guy I know has been building violins for a number of years but i think he gets at least $10,000 for one.

[Gary Leonard]

Anyone else see the video posted about the Berline's Fiddle Shop fire? Opening his safe and finding his Loar unscathed in it's Carlton case?

He pulls out three long, thin cases as well as the mandolin case. The three what I assume are bow cases are quickly handed to someone out of camera view. I wonder what condition they were in, and even if they were bows. They had to be pretty valuable if that was the first thing he went for.

Sad to see the roasted, uncased violins in that safe.