western redcedar

[Greg P. Stone]

I think it is probably true that no string instrument which has a top made from "cedar" actually does.

I live surrounded by western redcedars and I have a fascination with them. I've seen a picture of an early area post office made from a hollowed out western redcedar stump with a roof. Across the Strait in Victoria BC they have a boat carved from a single log which sailed around the world. The beams supporting my roof are made from old growth western redcedar. It is a beautiful and marvelously useful tree. I encourage anyone who comes to the area to walk through the Hoh Rainforest and marvel at the trees. The photo below is of me 6' 4" standing next to a spruce at the edge of the Hoh.

Redcedar is not cedar. The "cedars of Lebanon" are pretty much gone. Western redcedar is a type of myrtle. eastern redcedar is a Juniper. Officially the name is redcedar (sometimes red-cedar) rather than red cedar to highlight this fact.

174860

[Dave Hanson]

A lot of Fylde instruments have cedar tops, I had a Fylde mandolin and mandola, both with cedar tops, it would be illegal in this country to give a false description and say something is what it isn't [ trade descriptions act ] cedar was used a lot in the building trade when I was a young man, it has a very distinctive smell, there is no mistaking it for anything else.

Dave H

[Pittsburgh Bill]

A lot of Fylde instruments have cedar tops, I had a Fylde mandolin and mandola, both with cedar tops, it would be illegal in this country to give a false description and say something is what it isn't [ trade descriptions act ] cedar was used a lot in the building trade when I was a young man, it has a very distinctive smell, there is no mistaking it for anything else.

Dave H

Not sure this negates what Greg just said. Cedar yes, but Western red Cedar?

[gspiess]

George Pocock built his racing shells out of Western Red Cedar and spruce. His wooden shells were the gold standard around the world for many decades before carbon fibre came along.

[Seter]

With the various "cedar"-topped Seagull instruments, what species of cedar are they likely using?

[tree]

Western redcedar, Thuja plicata, is neither in the myrtle family nor is it a type of "myrtle" as far as I am aware. "Myrtle" is a common name and common names mostly confuse and obfuscate, in fact, so profoundly that the whole convention of "scientific names" was developed in order to confirm exactly what species people are talking about.

Cedar-of-Lebanon, Cedrus libini, is a true cedar, but they are nowhere close to "nearly gone"; they are commonly available (depending on where you live) in the landscape nursery industry. Other true cedars include Deodar cedar, Cedrus deodari, and Atlantic cedar, Cedrus atlantica.

[Greg P. Stone]

My memory failed me. Western Redcedar is related to cypress, not myrtle and the point I meant to make was that it is not a relative of true cedar.

By "nearly gone" I meant that true cedar is a very slow growing tree that has been over harvested so that it is no longer available for most of the uses it was historically put to. Apologies for the poor wording and memory.

When an instrument has a cedar top I know that is often western redcedar but don't know for sure that there aren't other varieties which makers use when they say "cedar".

Again, I am a great fan of western redcedar. I live in a log home made entirely from this tree. When I moved here in '08 I cut a branch on the edge of my driveway, dropping it at the foot of the tree. I stayed green for several years. The wood is so resinous that you can light it while wet.

[Astro]

I have a guitar with a "cedar" top and I love it. I've walked through giant redwood forests and they are beautiful.

Around here, we have cypress swamp-forest and they are beautiful. Old houses using the wood are gorgeous.

If the woods are "related" , makes me wonder what a cypress top would sound like.

[tree]

Interesting page from the American Conifer Society on the genus Cedrus (true cedars) is here (http://conifersociety.org/conifers/conifer/cedrus/).

For the page on Thuja, look at the options across the top of the page and click on Conifers, which takes you to the search page of their Conifer Base. Use the Quick Jump feature (drop down box) to select whichever genus interests you.

Cedar is one of those common names that really confuses . . . for example "spanish cedar", a common wood in classical guitar construction, not only isn't a cedar, it isn't even a conifer. The wood known as "spanish cedar" comes from Cedrela odorata, a deciduous tree in the same family (Meliacae) with mahogany and chinaberry.

But I agree, I don't know that I've ever seen a mandolin with top wood made from any of the true cedars.

[Greg P. Stone]

Western redcedar shares many attributes of true cedar, I can see why it was first identified as "cedar", but grows faster and larger. Here's the Duncan western redcedar. Only 178 feet tall but 20 feet in diameter. This area was clear cut last century and I presume the lumberjacks lacked the equipment to cut this down.

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[Mandobart]

Living in the PNW I'm very familiar with WRC. It is an excellent tonewood. I have two mandolins (F5 and F4), an F4 OM and a Hardanger fiddle with WRC tops. I've always thought WRC was closely related to the many types of juniper we have out west.

[buckhorn]

I've made a few mandolins using "cedar" for tops and am very happy with its' tone qualities. Even now I have a finished F5 that I play , and there is an A5 in the white waiting in the wings. I was given a 30in round powder pole that is close to 90 years old. It was milled into 2in slabs at 36in long. Even as old as it is, I still stickered it to let it air dry. The pole was cut and used before any type of sealer was ever used. The grains do wave a little but not noticeable with the shortness of a mandolin top. It's probably western cedar, but I would not be able to tell the difference between all the types. The wood that I have gives off a wonderful "air" whenever I cut into it and lets you know what type wood it is. Working with and carving the arches is about as easy as it can get. I hand carve and that makes a big difference. Compared to spruce, it does flex a little more, so I leave plates slightly thicker and tone bars a little higher for strength. Most of my people still want the traditional spruce top. but are impressed when they hear cedar. Don't discount an instrument just because it has a nontypical top. The early Gibsons used spruce, but that was when they were milling 150 year old timber all the time, and that's hard to come by these days. I've used fir as well as redwood and cedar and all have their own sounds. But cedar is a good choice too....

[foldedpath]

When an instrument has a cedar top I know that is often western redcedar but don't know for sure that there aren't other varieties which makers use when they say "cedar".

In the guitar world, Port Orford Cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana) is sometimes used as a soundboard, especially in higher-end guitars. Not a "true" cedar I suppose, if we're being picky about the Cedrus genus, but it has that cedar appearance. Especially when exposed to light for a few years and the wood darkens.

I have a Holst nylon string guitar with a Port Orford top, and it's a very stable, good-sounding soundboard. I wouldn't be surprised if there are mandolins out there with Port Orford cedar tops.

[Greg P. Stone]

Hikers and bicyclists around here use old logging roads which were made to supply the military with spruce for World War I airplanes. Spruce and western redcedar have incredible strength to weight ratios. I'm sure everyone has seen film of the almost largest airplane ever built, Howard Hughes' H-4 Spruce Goose. It's wingspan of 328 feet has only been exceeded by specialty planes which move space craft.

Most log homes are built to settle as the logs compress and shrink. The wood used is not necessarily a good insulator. By virtue of stiffness and light weight western red cedar is the best wood for log homes. There is virtually no compression or shrinkage and it has the best insulation of any wood. I never thought I'd have one but lucked into an all redcedar chalet style log home whose owners moved away and never finished the interior. Thus I was able to get my ideal retirement home for much less than it would have cost to build it.

Spruce would share these home building attributes but I haven't seen a spruce log home. I presume that the price is prohibitive.

[Greg P. Stone]

In the guitar world, Port Orford Cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana) is sometimes used as a soundboard, especially in higher-end guitars. Not a "true" cedar I suppose, if we're being picky about the Cedrus genus, but it has that cedar appearance. Especially when exposed to light for a few years and the wood darkens.

I have a Holst nylon string guitar with a Port Orford top, and it's a very stable, good-sounding soundboard. I wouldn't be surprised if there are mandolins out there with Port Orford cedar tops.

I'd forgotten about Port Orford Cedar. the fronds are identical to western redcedar but the outer structure of the tree is different. Looking it up I see that a fungus has devastated their population. Here, the western redcedar is under attack by bark beetles. I probably have a dozen trees on my little two acres which have dead tops due to the beetles. The dead tops in turn attract eagles which like to eat my chickens.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

I've worked quite a lot with WRC (in pipe organ making) for about 40 years. The wood has been imported here (in Northwestern Germany) for as long as I can remember. It may be light weight and elastic, but it's excellent and durable for outdoor applications, such as log cabins, as mentioned. I made the gutters for my dad's house in the late '80s, and they are still fine, although it rains a lot over here. The stuff just doesn't seem to rot like other wood.
When working with WRC, though, you might want to apply glue to both sides and leave the clamps on longer than normal, as WRC is oily (or whatever the matter really is) and won't glue very well.

WRC is being used to keep moths out of closets and is advertised over here as "Zeder", whereas it's always WRC.

Just my 2 cents.

[Bernie Daniel]

Over the year I have made hundreds of nestboxes for Eastern Bluebirds out of WRC it is a wonderful wood for that I can tell you. I have some boxes that are over 20 years old and still going strong.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Hm. Looked it up. I found two spellings redcedar and red cedar. (Most dictionaries like red cedar - but what do they know?) Anyhow, it can refer to types of mahogany, cypress, and juniper. So I see that it's not cedar.

The cypress red cedar is in the northwest. You call it myrtle, not cypress.

So are you saying that so-called cedar tops are actually cypress? Or myrtle? Or are they the same thing?

[Dave Kirkpatrick]

Max Girouard is building mandolins with Port Orford Cedar tops. I think he gets his from Bruce Harvie of Orcas Island Tonewoods. I have one of those mandolins (I just got it last week) and it has a beautiful tone.

[Bob Clark]

I have one of Terry Majewski's Crystal Forest flat-tops with a WRC top. It is his #14, which he made in 2012. You can see it in his website's gallery. It is stunning to look at and it sounds great. I am not at all concerned whether it is true cedar, cypress or whatever. It's botanical classification is not the reason I bought it and still play it all these years later. It is its sound that does it for me. It is some special wood, to make such a beautiful tone. I'd buy another instrument with a WRC top in a heartbeat.

I really am finding this thread interesting, though. I have learned a lot about this wood's properties through the postings. I hope I get the chance to see one of these majestic trees one day.

Thanks to all of you for these interesting postings.

[ollaimh]

With the various "cedar"-topped Seagull instruments, what species of cedar are they likely using?

they will be western canadain red cedar. they tried to use canadian woods. i have never seen them try eastern yellow or white cedar.

- - - Updated - - -


Max Girouard is building mandolins with Port Orford Cedar tops. I think he gets his from Bruce Harvie of Orcas Island Tonewoods. I have one of those mandolins (I just got it last week) and it has a beautiful tone.

is port orford cedar another wood ????

[Greg P. Stone]

is port orford cedar another wood ????

It's closely related to western redcedar. Don't know what the sonic difference is but I'd guess that there is as much variation within each species as there is between them.

[Jill McAuley]

In the guitar world, Port Orford Cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana) is sometimes used as a soundboard, especially in higher-end guitars. Not a "true" cedar I suppose, if we're being picky about the Cedrus genus, but it has that cedar appearance. Especially when exposed to light for a few years and the wood darkens.

I have a Holst nylon string guitar with a Port Orford top, and it's a very stable, good-sounding soundboard. I wouldn't be surprised if there are mandolins out there with Port Orford cedar tops.

Max Girouard has made/makes mandolins with Port Orford Cedar tops - here's the one he made for me:

175081

[yankees1]

Max Girouard has made/makes mandolins with Port Orford Cedar tops - here's the one he made for me:

175081. That sure is an ugly top Jill !! So ugly that Max is building me a F4 with PO and figured similar to yours, may even be from same tree !

[multidon]

Port Orford cedar is a different genus Chamaecyparis) from either Western red cedar (genus Thuja) or Eastern red cedar (genus Juniperius). It is stronger and harder than Western, and not as hard but equal in strength to Eastern. As a tone wood Port Orford seems to have properties similar to some types of spruce, with a similar strength to weight ratio. Guitars I have played with Port Orford tops sounded great. One hardly ever sees Eastern used for instruments as it always seems to have too many knots.

Weber made a limited edition mandolin last year, only 5 made, with Port Orford tops and myrtlewood necks, backs, and sides. Point was to make an instrument out of all Pacific Northwest native woods

[Gary Leonard]

Max Girouard has made/makes mandolins with Port Orford Cedar tops - here's the one he made for me:

175081

Check out the sound of Jill's mandolin here.
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/threads/143019-2019-Tune-A-Week-Project

I'd love to hear a mandolin with a WRC top, anyone have any links?

[Greg P. Stone]

OK, I did some research and Port Orford cedar is stronger and harder than Sitka spruce. Western Redcedar is close to Sitka Spruce in strength but lighter and not nearly as hard. So Port Orford Cedar seems quite special indeed as a tone wood.

My personal experience with a western redcedar guitar top was that it was amazingly sensitive when playing with bare fingers but would actually distort under heavy picking.


Common Name(s): Western Redcedar, Western Red Cedar

Scientific Name: Thuja plicata

Distribution: Pacific Northwest United States/Canada

Tree Size: 165-200 ft (50-60 m) tall, 7-13 ft (2-4 m) trunk diameter

Average Dried Weight: 23 lbs/ft3 (370 kg/m3)

Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .31, .37

Janka Hardness: 350 lbf (1,560 N)

Modulus of Rupture: 7,500 lbf/in2 (51.7 MPa)

Elastic Modulus: 1,110,000 lbf/in2 (7.66 GPa)

Crushing Strength: 4,560 lbf/in2 (31.4 MPa)

Shrinkage: Radial: 2.4%, Tangential: 5.0%, Volumetric: 6.8%, T/R Ratio: 2.1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Common Name(s): Port Orford Cedar, Lawson’s Cypress

Scientific Name: Chamaecyparis lawsoniana

Distribution: Pacific northwest United States

Tree Size: 150-200 ft (45-60 m) tall, 4-6 ft (1.2-1.8 m) trunk diameter

Average Dried Weight: 29 lbs/ft3 (465 kg/m3)

Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .39, .47

Janka Hardness: 590 lbf (2,620 N)

Modulus of Rupture: 12,290 lbf/in2 (84.8 MPa)

Elastic Modulus: 1,646,000 lbf/in2 (11.35 GPa)

Crushing Strength: 6,080 lbf/in2 (41.9 MPa)

Shrinkage: Radial: 4.6%, Tangential: 6.9%, Volumetric: 10.1%, T/R Ratio: 1.5
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Common Name(s): Sitka Spruce

Scientific Name: Picea sitchensis

Distribution: Northwestern North America

Tree Size: 130-160 ft (40-50 m) tall, 4-6 ft (1.2-1.8 m) trunk diameter

Average Dried Weight: 27 lbs/ft3 (425 kg/m3)

Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .36, .42

Janka Hardness: 510 lbf (2,270 N)

Modulus of Rupture: 10,150 lbf/in2 (70.0 MPa)

Elastic Modulus: 1,600,000 lbf/in2 (11.03 GPa)

Crushing Strength: 5,550 lbf/in2 (38.2 MPa)

Shrinkage: Radial: 4.3%, Tangential: 7.5%, Volumetric: 11.5%, T/R Ratio: 1.7

[anon-rickf]

175114

I have an A5 with a Port Orford Cedar top, Walnut back and sides that was built for me last year. Very nice mandolin with a strong voice, a lot of fundamental tones, not as much overtones as spruce. It has rapidly become the "Alpha" in my little pack of mandolins.

[Jeff Hildreth]

Rick,

Very interesting mandolin.

Who built it.

Jeff

Williams, Or.

[anon-rickf]

Rick,

Very interesting mandolin.

Who built it.

Jeff

Williams, Or.

Jeff, Jerry Firth from Merlin was builder.

Rick