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Steve Cantrell
Jul-28-2005, 7:51pm
Just kidding about that. Actually, I've been learning the mando for the past year based mainly on books, DVDs, etc, and I really want to be able to improvise my own breaks. A more experienced hand once told me, "Just play out of the chords, do some tremelo. It'll sounds ok." Is that what most people do ? Consider "Every Humble Knee Must Bow". Chords are: E, A, B7, E, B7, E, A, E, B7. Are you guys doing it by ear, instinctively knowing by the key of the song where to place your fingers on the fretboard, or is actual calculation--saying to yourself, "That's an E, so I'm going to do a slide, hammer-on, tremelo, etc. right here." Any help would be much appreciated.

Coy Wylie
Jul-28-2005, 8:01pm
When I first started out in open jams on the mando, my improvistions stayed very close to the melody in a song. On an instrumental fiddle tune, if I did not know the tune I would pass until I had learned it and could play it to speed with the others.

You need to play a lot with other people. You will develop different licks for different keys and chord shapes as well as find all sorts of creative ways to use them to enhance the melodies. The better you know the fingerboard and the scales and double stops the more freedom and creativity you can have in improvising. Remember, it takes time for all this to develop.

To answer your question, I rarely think, "That's an E, so I'm going to..." Rather, I've played enough, I tend to improvise by feel and what sounds good at the time.

Like an excellent old mando player I know said when asked how he played a certain tune, "I don't know, I never played it the same way twice."

Martin
Jul-28-2005, 10:01pm
Well I"ll tell what got me started ymmv. The Pentatonic Mandolin by Niles Hokkanen got me going. Just started learning some patterns for different keys and went from there. That book breaks it down in simple terms and I found it easy to follow.

arbarnhart
Jul-28-2005, 10:20pm
Interesting tune to use as an example. I love that song. It's bluegrass and gospel, right? Well, actually, it's a blues song. A lot of the improvisations on that song are fairly standard blues riffs. I can't play it properly, but I hear and recognize it well enough to post knowing that I will get shot down in this forum if I'm wrong. I'm not.

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steve in tampa
Jul-29-2005, 5:01am
It has to start in your head. Try whistling along first, then take that to the mandolin.

Easy to get caught up in scales/theory stuff. They are tools to train your fingers to move with how you can analyze it and chart it after it is done.

True improvisation flows naturally from the imagination to the fretboard. No imagination, no improvisation.

billkilpatrick
Jul-29-2005, 5:39am
i can improvise in some keys but not in others - simply because of an awareness of the mode pattern. #whistling first sounds like a good idea but a little knowledge of the keyboard makes it so much easier to move around. #without knowing this - and i speak from 40 years experience of fumbling around on the guitar - every song becomes an up-hill struggle.

picksnbits
Jul-29-2005, 7:52am
Play along with anything and everything you can (even if you can't) to develop the ability; CD's, radio, real live people, your kids sing-along tapes. Sit outside the circle at a jam and noodle along quietly.

As long as you don't blow the rythmn or chord progression it'll sound fine once the tune has been established in everyone's mind.

I think a prerequisite is developing the ability to pick up the chord progression on unfamiliar songs by ear. Then add fill-in licks and riffs based around the chords and then.....

arbarnhart
Jul-29-2005, 8:09am
While I wholeheartedly concur that you need to use your imagination, I tend to think in phrases more than single notes, and those phrases (in the example song, blues riffs) are generally relative to the key. #The chords fit a I-IV-V7 pattern for E. So I would start diddling with E scales. Since it sounds bluesy and I-IV-V7 is a common blues progression, I would start with the blues scale.

Think of it this way...
There is a river of sound and the scales are like stepping stones. You still pick your own path across and sometimes you will get away with stepping where you don't see a stone (or sometimes you'll go under) and you don't have to step on every stone or go in order. You have to experiment.

BTW - I am no expert. I swim to shore a lot and sometimes I have to be thrown a rope.

newbreedbrian
Jul-29-2005, 10:13am
when improvising, do you take the chord progression into consideration or mostly the key you're in? so say you're playing in g, would you use a g scale for the break or switch to c and d scales as the chords change? and what if there's an e (minor i would assume?) thrown in there somewhere?

250sc
Jul-29-2005, 1:53pm
Newbreedbrian,

There is no "right" way to do it. You can play the scale associated with every chord in the song or us a major or minor pentatonic scale in the key of the song. (when playing the pentatonic scale feel free to add all of the 'blue' notes too.)

Just remember that your trying to play music and not scales. To make your solos sound less like your just playing scales you could start by stateing the melody so others recognize the song. Between the phrases of the melody where there is space you can fill it with a scale, leading to the next phrase or a pentatonic (or blues) lick that ends up merging with the melody again or a simple double stop chromatic scale leading to the next chord of the song.

The possibilities are limitless. You can spend the rest of your life learning new ways to improvise.

nilodnam
Jul-29-2005, 2:13pm
Consider "Every Humble Knee Must Bow". Chords are: E, A, B7, E, B7, E, A, E, B7.

Well, this is in the key of E and E is the I chord, A is the IV chord, and B7 is the V Chord.

Very standard changes for blues, and most pop and rock and roll.

You can play this in the key of E using the straight scale of
E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D# E.

Or blues it up by using the flatted 3 (G) and flatted 7(D) (optional flatted 5 Bb). The "blue" notes.
You may not be able to use the blues notes over it, depending upon the melody. Some tunes that are more gospel or country in feel have melody that places emphasis on the major 3, and 6, and maybe 9. These clash with the blue notes.

A blues pentatonic uses 1, b3, 4, 5, b7, 8. Skip 2 and 6, flat 3 and 7.
A major pentatonic uses 1, 2, 3, , 5, 6, 8. Skip 4 and 7.

I suggest picking a song in A with only A, D, and E7 chords, which is an easy fiddle or mando key. Learn the first position A scale. The learn a few patterns like decending thirds, 1-2-3-1-2-3-4-2-3-4-5-4.... that make the scale interesting. Play these over the recorded chords. Now learn the major pentatonic and do the same.

Next, find changes that are blues like (all dominant 7) and learn the minor pentatonic. Play that over it.

This all assumes pure improvization, and not trying to quote the melody.

Jim D.

RobP
Jul-29-2005, 6:21pm
I think it depends on what you mean by "improvise"

If you are going to play a particular song with a group of others and you want to be able to play a break, I would recommend that you spend some time planning out your break ahead of time. #Get the basic melody down, see where the melody fits in the differen chord patters you are using, figure out a double stop or 2, listen for nice non-melody fill notes between chords and put it all together. #You might get someone to record the guitar accompaniment for you to use for practice. #Then practice your designed break, paying particular attention to timing. #As you get more comfortable with playing this "designed" break, you will inevitably change it "on-the-fly" a bit every time you play it and eventually it will turn into real improv.

If you are really good you might be able to do the above on the fly, but for breaks for new stuff that I haven't planned out I normally see how close to the melody I can get with the chord shapes, or at least I use them to make up interesting fills. #

The Pentatonic Mandolin book mentioned above is also a good resource -- with practice it gets easy to see the pentatonic scale pattern within or around particular chord shapes and opens up lots of improv possiblities outside of the root, third or fifth of the particular chord. #

I have come a long way over the past couple of years by making up breaks for songs that I perform with my trio the Kindreds. #Performance is really feet to the fire http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #I still have a long way to go, but I am getting much more comfortable around the fretboard and a lot less nervous about my ablity to do *something* that sounds OK. #I think getting over the nerves is a big part of the struggle too.

Best of luck

Rob

WJF
Jul-29-2005, 6:28pm
You might also try constraining yourself as you play through the chord changes ...
* try playing over the chord changes using nothing but double stops over the chord changes
* try playing nothing but three note arpeggios over the changes starting one time on the root of each chord, the next time starting on the third and then the fifth
* try simply playing the melody as is, but shift the rhythmic values of the notes around ... this simple exercise will lead you to lots of interesting variations.
* try playing the melody or a solo using only two strings, then when that's mastered, try playing the melody or a solo again on just the other two strings (this is a good trick for forcing you to start playing up the neck)
* try making up a solo using nothing but the five notes in the appropriate pentatonic scale.

Anyway, hopefully, you get the idea. By constraining the ways that you approach the tune you'll focus on all of these concepts more intensely and absorb them more deeply.

I believe that famous bluegrass composer Stravinsky said, 'that which constrains me, sets me free' ... Give it a try!

Hope this helps!

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Steve Cantrell
Jul-29-2005, 6:50pm
This is great stuff, guys. This is another of those times that you wish the Cafe was actually a physical place. I get a mental image of a room entirely packed with guys carrying mandos. Probably be a fistfight over the Gibson thing, but...kidding about that. This is all a tremendous help.

newbreedbrian
Jul-30-2005, 7:57am
thanks for all the replys folks. i hope i didn't give the impression i was looking for THE steadfast rule, rather peoples opinions on the subject. sounds like i might be best to start using the pentatonics of whatever chord is being played and then branching out from there. the idea about playing double stops over the chord changes sounds cool. can you basically just take any half of the appropriate 4 finger closed chord to construct the double stops for that? i like the sound of using tremelo on those for slower numbers but need some practice doin it. definately some food for thought guys, much appreciated

steve in tampa
Jul-30-2005, 1:24pm
You can get all the notes, scales, speed, licks etc in the world, but its your ability to phrase it together on the fly, and put emotion in to it like a singer that will set you apart form the rest.

Its a never ending work in progress.

Vincent
Jul-30-2005, 8:21pm
"can you basically just take any half of the appropriate 4 finger closed chord to construct the double stops?" IMHO, that's a limited approach that ignores the melody and many classic BG doublestops. I'd recommend you find the places where the singer stretches the word out- "every humble knee must bowwwwww"- find that note, then find the chord tone above it (the tenor harmony note). This is a decent starter doublestop to play over those spots- it restates the melody and sounds traditional. Of course, every *rule* can be broken. : ) Listen to trad breaks on slower songs and find those sounds you hear. Search author=JBird in the co-mando archive for some good written stuff on this as well.

Pete Martin
Aug-07-2005, 6:00pm
The main thing is not be afraid to try improvising. #You must practice improvising by improvising, then eventually polish the rough spots using the many different methods suggested here and elsewhere.

Best of luck, it is very fun!

Steve Cantrell
Aug-07-2005, 6:44pm
I really appreciate all the guidance that's been offered here. I thought I'd give an update on my progress. I started by trying to quote the melody by ear. It was a little plodding, but at least I knew I could pick out the notes. Then I tried some minor embelishment on the melody--a litle tremelo, some slides. After that it was on to a little more complicated stuff--trying to work in some Monroe-style no-alternate-picking double stops at a faster clip(if this makes any sense). I finally felt like I could fill the space between chord changes with something that didn't exactly quote the melody, but did follow it. Since then , I've applied this to "Every Humble Knee Must Bow" and "Sittin' On Top of the World" with a modest degree of success. Again, I appreciate all the help. This place is a fantastic resource.