View Full Version : Six strings are just too much! (but 8 might work...)
I need help. (O.K. Everyone who know me agrees. Ha, ha).
So here is the situation and it seems a lot like a bad case of MAS, or what ever you call interest in Tenor guitars and Octave Mandolins.
Recently, after an extensive search I bought a nice guitar. I had quit guitar in favor of fiddle nearly 25 years ago. The mandolin came about 8 years ago followed by my favorite instrument (or nearly as loved as the violin) a Collings Mandola.
I bought the guitar because I missed the big rich sound in that lower range. And the mandola was a step in that direction.
Accompanying two fiddles in our band I needed a lower pitched instrument,. Mandolin works really well in driving rhythm but without the bass, or cello, or accordion, or even the hammered dulcimer, it is the same pitch as the fiddles and sounded too much the same.
The guitar seemed like a good idea. But yikes, it's been a long time since I played a guitar. And my wrist and thumb are not the same anymore. Both broken at different times, the thumb being the most receint. Playing chords again, and on this D shaped neck profile, hurts. It does not seem to be a problem with the Collings V profile on the mandola.
So. As much as I really love this guitar, I think a tenor guitar with a V profile like the Collings Tenor seems to make sense. But there is another option driving me nuts and you may already guess, an Octave Mandolin.
How to decide? What is your opinion / experience with these instruments?
And how hard is it to sell an instrument in order to buy another?
Well I have and use six string, four string and eight string instruments.
They all have an appeal and a use, I think you also need them all :-)
PS it is quite easy to convert a six string to a eight string but they are difficult to play unless you have huge rubber fingers!
Cornfield
Nov-29-2018, 5:17pm
Obviously, you need a 12 string guitar.
Obviously, you need a 12 string guitar.
Our hammered dulcimer player makes a similar remark. He has 48 strings. LOL
My hands are small and I dont' think my wrist could manage a 12 string guitar nowadays. They do have a beautiful low tone however. Great idea. :crying:
I understand how one could 'need them all'. But I feel that I'm spreading myself pretty thin in terms of practice time on each instrument. I thought the chord memory would come pretty quickly on guitar.
I'm learning chords on the mandola and mandolin now and often the brain turns to 'mush'.
It seems easier to just play instruments tuned in 5ths. (And it gives me an excuse to buy another instrument. Wink, wink. :cool:)
Anyway, the question is; Tenor guitar or Octave Mandolin?
If you could only have one...
And who makes an Octave Mandolin with a 'V' neck, like the Collings Tenor?
40bpm
Nov-29-2018, 11:30pm
On your 6-string guitar, try using the Freddie Green 3-note chord style. Very effective and easy on the hands.
Hi Doug, I just think they are very different instruments, although in theory if you can play one you can play the other, but I find the tenor guitar a much more peaceful instrument.
You can finger pick a tenor quite easily, play chords or play melody, I find the octave mandolin is better suited for single note melody just like a big mandolin.
Of course that is just my own personal prefrance and undoubtedly some people would completely disagree.
There are no rules but generally speaking octaves have quite hight tension strings and tenors are more subtle in ther nature and playing style.
For instance I would rather play silent night on my tenor than on my octave, in fact I would rather play anything on my tenor because I just love them but I am tying not to be biased!
If it’s low end thump you’re craving, you’ll end up with a mandocello eventually...jus’ sayin’ ;)
OM and bouzouki are great rhythm instructors, though you can certainly play melodies on them (the shorter scale OMs esp). IMO, they give you more volume than a tenor, and I really liked my OM. That said, don’t approach them like a “big mandolin.” The fretting hand approach is different, and with small hands you can forget 4 finger “chop” chords. But, that’s not what you’re after with these instruments, anyway. Drive, ringing sustain, oh yeah!
I miss my OM, but not enough to trade my ‘cello for one...
Good luck!!
DougC
Nov-30-2018, 12:55pm
On your 6-string guitar, try using the Freddie Green 3-note chord style. Very effective and easy on the hands.
This is the right response to my problem. But I do get lost with all of thoes extra strings. Ha, ha
And time will tell if my wrist will handle the wider neck...
Hi Doug, I just think they are very different instruments, although in theory if you can play one you can play the other, but I find the tenor guitar a much more peaceful instrument.
Yes, the sound is important! A growling, bad-ass octave mandolin may be cool in some situations but I plan to do the sophisticated, 'classical' style of accompaniment. Usually I play melody and counterpoint and I'm being asked to do more chord work.
It would seem that this eliminates the octave mandolin. But one can play it in a beautiful way like Roger Tallroth did on a Northfield octave mandolin. The Pearl Polska.
https://www.northfieldinstruments.com/flat-top-octave-mandolin
I agree however that chords do sound more 'jangely' or 'bouzouki like' on octave mandolin.
So then I watch a video from our own mandolin cafe member Baron Collins-Hill play his beautiful Collings Tenor. He is not playing a lot of chords there but he does pull out a deep, rich sound from a type of instrument noted for it's high pitched and shallow sound.
https://youtu.be/poAZORNgbM8
Richard Durrant gives a fine example of Tenor guitar as a melody and counterpoint instrument.
https://youtu.be/s9rOtdmtzJ4?t=143
bruce.b
Nov-30-2018, 1:28pm
I love tenor guitars. They are going to be easier on you hands than an OM. I play fiddle tunes on my Herb Taylor archtop and love how they sound on it. Tuned GDAE, same as an OM. Mine are #205 and #174. I love his newest archtop,#236. http://www.herbtaylor.com/instruments/tenorguitar/
I am not sure if Baron uses standard tenor guitar tuning, GDAD I think?
And that brings up another aspect because we can use many tunings with four strings, CGDA and GDAE are the popular 5ths but anything in between can be used.
Then we have two main choices of scale length 21” or 23” but again there are others ranging from 20” - 26”
You could even buy a nylon string tenor, I really love the sound of GDAE with nylon strings.
We have some incredibly talented players who post on this thread!!
I, like many others aspire to the likes of John Lawler who’s can make chord melody’s look so effortless.....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aTjm60tm2WY
Cornfield
Nov-30-2018, 4:35pm
I am not sure if Baron uses standard tenor guitar tuning, GDAD I think?
And that brings up another aspect because we can use many tunings with four strings, CGDA and GDAE are the popular 5ths but anything in between can be used.
Then we have two main choices of scale length 21” or 23” but again there are others ranging from 20” - 26”
You could even buy a nylon string tenor, I really love the sound of GDAE with nylon strings.
We have some incredibly talented players who post on this thread!!
I, like many others aspire to the likes of John Lawler who’s can make chord melody’s look so effortless.....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aTjm60tm2WY
Lawlor makes it look sooooo easy
I am not sure if Baron uses standard tenor guitar tuning, GDAD I think?
And that brings up another aspect because we can use many tunings with four strings, CGDA and GDAE are the popular 5ths but anything in between can be used.
Then we have two main choices of scale length 21” or 23” but again there are others ranging from 20” - 26”
You could even buy a nylon string tenor, I really love the sound of GDAE with nylon strings.
We have some incredibly talented players who post on this thread!!
I, like many others aspire to the likes of John Lawler who’s can make chord melody’s look so effortless.....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aTjm60tm2WY
Yes! He is amazing. He is so casual. It shows how well he knows his tune.
I'm not looking for a jazz axe. Or to use different tunings. The choice between CGDA and GDAE almost seems unimportant, but the lower pitch would help. Baron did use a different tuning. GDAD.
Collings changed the strings for him to make it work. And if I went for that same instrument I'd ask for flat wound strings. Has anyone used Thomastiks or D'Addario flatwound on a Tenor guitar?
I'm a little guy, and holding a jumbo archtop makes me look like a kid. Ha, ha. So a tenor guitar for me should be something not as punchy as an archtop. Short scale with complicated overtones. And can it come with a side of fries?
Here are few different sounds and shapes played by my friend James who had never even seen a tenor guitar until that day, he does play mandolin and octave though.
PS why cant we embed video?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JhCMMNnNOrk
DougC
Dec-01-2018, 12:57pm
Hey Fox,
I like the tenor guitar in the video at 2:08 that James is playing. Do you know who made it?
Let's ask the administrator about the video embeding problem.
Ha well that one Is a 21” scale Ozark with Nylon strings.
I bought the guitar as “unplayable”for just a few £s. It had been trodden on and crushed pretty bad.
I took it apart and rebuilt it with a light X brace, added a few patches and reshaped the neck and headstock.
By the time I had re sanded it, the top was pretty thin so it works just right with low tension nylon stings.
I sold it to a local musician who I only saw a few days ago and he loves it.
Ozark? I have not heard of this one over here in America.
Nice repair work Fox.
Another in my unlucky search, unlucky because this builder's website has a virus. Someone should tell him if it is possible. But his Tenor Guitar also sounds very nice. Circle Strings Tenor Guitar
https://youtu.be/Jq4e9N9QzPA
They are one of the cheaper models available in my neck of the woods, the one in the vid has a cedar top but the new ones are spruce top.
https://www.eaglemusicshop.com/prod/tenor-guitars/ozark-tenor-guitar.htm
DougC
Dec-03-2018, 11:08am
What are your opinions about the shape of a Tenor Guitar?
I seem to like the 'pear shape' of that Ozark tenor guitar, which has a smaller bout on top. There are other shapes, like a dreadnaught guitar, or teardrop "A" style mandolin.
There is a quite lot of choice out there, I started a thread a few years ago that named 14 different tenor guitars for sale in the U.K.
I feel the main choice is about scale length but if you are happy with a 23” scale you would find it hard to beat the Blueridge BR40T for overall value. It is very well made for a relatively cheap instrument, there is one in my vid, although I have slightly modified mine by re shaping the bracing. (Easy job for any luthier but probably de values the guitar)
Finding a 21” scale does narrow down the field but there are still a few available.
Nylon string tenors are pretty thin on the ground, I think there is only one readily available?
Loads of vintage tenors out there some are very expensive.....
I'd like to read the old thread about different tenor guitars. However I am interested in what players here have and why they like the particular shape of the instrument.
Let's find some video examples.
https://youtu.be/dMi3HutEKFI
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https://youtu.be/dMi3HutEKFI
https://youtu.be/dMi3HutEKFI
3 attempts at embedding video ...
https://youtu.be/dMi3HutEKFI
https://youtu.be/dMi3HutEKFI
dMi3HutEKFI
DougC
Dec-04-2018, 11:55am
Martin has this 'pear shape'.
There must be a better name for it.
Check out this video.
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Here is a tenor guitar with a bigger top bout. The audio is not as rich sounding but I like his version of the tune.
dMi3HutEKFI
BTW use only the last part of the YouTube address usually after an = or a / to embed a video. GO ADVANCED, then use the red YOUTUBE icon then erase the stuff leading to the address.
Here is a tenor guitar with a different top bout. (straight, and not curved. Wish I had names for these things.) It is also more the size of a regular guitar and that sure gives it some bass!
Binge viewing. Yea, but since I learned to embed a video properly, I'm going crazy.
This is also one of my favorite Irish tunes.
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Pono make a couple of wide nut nylon string guitars...
https://vimeo.com/86971900
Pono also make a 8 string short scale octave guitar body
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f7FNZ00cMHY
DougC
Dec-06-2018, 12:24pm
Pono make a couple of wide nut nylon string guitars...
https://vimeo.com/86971900
Thanks for these Pono demos.
The nylon strings are beautiful but I think I'd like to hear some flatwound strings on this Pono Tenor guitar.
BTW 'strip off the info up to and including the slash from the clipboard paste leaving just the video identifier in the red youtube icon's box. The result puts the image on the mandolin cafe post.
DougC
Dec-06-2018, 12:48pm
Pono also make a 8 string short scale octave guitar body
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f7FNZ00cMHY
Darn! I wish they had this thing tuned better. They even say that it is a bit out of tune in their notes. This instrument seems to be what I'm looking for, though it has 8 strings. Ha, ha.
f7FNZ00cMHY
The Baritone version, though bigger (a negative in my view) has an outstanding, beautiful voice.
5Qp4eaXzgw0
You can always have one custom built for you.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?
Perhaps the little Regals would appeal to you?
173191
You can always have one custom built for you.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?
Perhaps the little Regals would appeal to you?
173191
This shape and size and placement of the bridge seem to be my preference. And a 'v' shaped neck too.
I think the youtube link failed because the wrong part got deleted.
Was that a link to a Pono instrument build?
I can’t seem to get the vids to show, posted hundreds in the past!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o8AegM9xUVc
I can’t seem to get the vids to show, posted hundreds in the past!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o8AegM9xUVc
To show this video you would 'go to advanced', click on the red youtube icon and paste in just the part after the equal sign. (o8AegM9xUVc )
That is quite a fancy tenor guitar you have there.
I've found yet another from Ko'olau in Hawaii. (I think they have an association with Pono mandolins.) This seems to be more of a standard guitar shape. Seems odd that it is from our cousins in the Ukulele family. We meet in the middle I suppose.
oDlq_eC4NN0
Going by the amount of Facebook pages that feature tenor guitars I would say that the majority of interest now comes from ukulele players stepping up to steel string but useing DBGE tuning.
I am a big fan of nylon string tenor guitars, I love the mellow sound and long sustain but I do not like flat wounds on my tenors! Or perhaps I should say the flatwounds I did try did not sound or perform well for me.
There are a few threads on this forum about useing flat wounds, but the very fact they are not popular must point somewhere....
In my mind, string choose can make a huge difference to how a tenor guitar sounds.
Many of the tenor guitar sets that are readily available do not bring out the best sound or feeling and can be improved on with a little experimenting.
However, standard guitar stings are plentiful and cheap unlike flatwound that are often hard to find as indervidual strings and not cheap.
Having said that, I am of course only speaking for myself and I don’t doubt some folk can make full use of flatwound strings.
How about a nice resonator!
173252173253
DougC
Dec-08-2018, 11:29am
This is what I like about Mandolin Cafe. It is the meeting place of different peoples loosely based on a topic like mandolins.
So today I learn about Ukulele tunning. Interesting.
My interest in flatwound strings is a small part of the mandolin world. But it comes from personal experience, just as Fox has learned to like nylon strings on a tenor guitar. I use Thomastik flatwound strings on my Collings mandola to get a certain sound to play beautiful klezmer nigun's and khosidl's. (Not the most popular genre I admit. )
It seems that tenor guitars are quite responsive. And the choice of string tension and material density makes a big difference!
And like violas, there is no standard size, and even standard shape for tenor guitars. So there is a lot to learn in a public forum like Mandolin Cafe.
Hmm, that is a bit embarrassing and I can’t edit my post now :redface:
D-G-B-E. Is the correct baritone ukulele tuning. (Or the popular one at least)
Ther is another discussion thread about Ukulele tuning and mandolins. So I'll stick to tenor guitars here.
But I'm starting to wonder. What is the difference between a Ukuelele and a Tenor Guitar?
They both have four strings. They both have a body shape like a guitar.
Maybe Six strings ARE NOT too much. Ha, ha. ~o)
Here is a ukulele come tenor guitar, in fact that very one in the video is for sale on EBay right now.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=UlzR1qJ0sLk
A very nice version of a classic jazz tune. Paul and Theresa did a fine job.
However, "I'm confessing" that this tenor guitar sounds too much like a ukulele. It works well for this type of music but I'm looking for more bass and more sustain.
UlzR1qJ0sLk
Here is a ukulele come tenor guitar, in fact that very one in the video is for sale on EBay right now.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=UlzR1qJ0sLk
Have you looked into the Blueridge BR40T ?
Rob Gerety
Dec-23-2018, 6:28pm
I understand that the Pono OM can also be strung up DGBE. I'm primarily a guitar player - but I do dabble with the mandolin. I'd love to buy a high end archtop OM but I have a tough time justifying the money. So, I think a Pono OM (big body short scale), may be in my future. The price is quite reasonable.