Keeping Fingers Down

[Mike Buesseler]

I have learned from books and from advice here that it is good practice to keep one's fingers held down on an ascending sequence of notes on the same string. #In other words, if you play, say, B, C, D on the second string, you should keep your first and second fingers down on those frets as you approach the 5th fret, D.

But, if the next note after the D is on another string--say an E on the first string, for example--and then I come back to the second string, #should I be holding down the D in the meantime? #This doesn't seem right for a couple of reasons. #1.) Holding the D down for the duration of the E might extend its intended time duration, e.g., an eighth note becomes a quarter note--or more, depending on the length of that E. # 2.) #I tend to muff the E note with the finger holding down the D on the second fret. #

So, what's the full interpretation of the rule? #Keep fingers held down until you change strings, or until you exceed the written duration of the last note, or what? #I'm trying to train myself to KEEP THOSE FINGERS down, but I see now that there are exceptions to every rule (D*mmit)!

[jmcgann]

Keep them down until you leave the string for the next note-all the fingers come off at once.

[B]TECHNIQUE TIPS HERE (http://www.johnmcgann.com/techtips.html)

[John Flynn]

Well, I am absolutely nobody to be arguing with John McGann. If he says so, that should be it! My casual observation, though, is that I see a lot of great, "household name" players with thier fingers flyin' all over the place. So what's with that?

[Mike Buesseler]

John, thank you for the quick response. I was hoping you'd pipe in. Ok, I hear you: lift them all at once when you leave that string. It's just that the next sequence is a descending one on that second string. It seems right to keep them finger where they are....and, since I'm getting the habit of keeping them down, I don't think to lift them until I see trouble coming, e.g., the example I gave. See my point? The rule is good, unless, or as long as.... I guess the rule is a guideline, not a commandment, huh? Like everything else.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Bertram Henze]

I'd agree to that - not a commandment. I am one of those with "flying fingers", and for that change-of-string rule I think I should be, because Irish tunes make you change strings approx. every second note. Also, I do lots of double stops where fingers better stay out of the way of neighboring strings. I remember my boyhood violin teachers telling me to keep my fingers down, but I just couldn't. It is never a problem as long as you keep your left and right hands in sync, so there's the one needed left finger down when the right hand strikes.

[fatt-dad]

Leave your fingers down until you have to pick them up for the next note. That's the rule, I try to follow it and my fingers are flying also - so what's up with that?

f-d

[jmcgann]

It just makes sense that flying fingers mean your fingers are travelling far out into space and have to make the return journey, which means less efficiency and more work.

I'm not arguing with great players who have flying fingers- technique isn't everything-great technique and no soul or feel makes bad music IMHO- but I usually address this to students who AREN'T great players (yet).

And I speak from experience- I had flying fingers until I was in my mid-20's and had to practice like crazy to break the habit. Why? because it's a "rule"? NO. Because my sound was choppy, my timing was inaccurate, and my tone wasn't happening!

Believe me, I am as suspect of "rules and dogma" as anybody. I also believe in doing what is needed to improve my musicianship.

Take this easy test- play 4 notes with four fingers on one string ascending (say, 0 2 4 5 7 on the E string, fingers 1 2 3 4). If you leave you fingers down after playing each note, it is 4 movements for 4 notes. If you lift each finger individually, it is 7 movements, almost twice the work for the same amount of notes. Wonder why you can't "get up to speed" or it sounds choppy? Elementary, Watson!!!

[arbarnhart]

John,

With all due respect (and that is a boatload), from the perspective of someone having trouble with it, your numbers are backwards. Keeping them down is doing something, if that makes any sense. The flying up isn't a conscious effort, but keeping them down is. So it isn't the movements at the fingers, but the number of thoughts in the head. I guess the goal is to be conscious of every movement or to only move consciously. But until I get over that hump, holding them down actually slows me down. I do agree that I should do it for the long haul.

[Bob DeVellis]

The "logic" seems to go both ways. On one hand, as John says, keeping them down creates an economy of motion. On the other hand, it does not create an economy of hand tension. Instead of applying force to the one finger that needs to be held down, you're applying it to four. Clearly, if the sequence descends back down from whence it started, holding the notes is worth that extra effort. I suspect that different players, and perhaps the same players as their skills change, find one or the other cost -- additional movement or additional hand tension -- the easier to pay. If you've got a really powerful left hand, the extra effort to hold all 4 strings down probably seems trivial. This is less true for a beginner (as one example) who may also have an instrument with higher action. As an exercise (e.g., Aonzo scales), holding down as many notes at once as you can is a good way to develop hand strength. Beyond that, I suspect it's likely to vary from individual to individual.

Let me state the obvious: Anyone in his right mind who has a choice between my advice and John's should steer clear of anything I say. I don't consider any of this advice, just an observation.

[jmcgann]

No- the fingers go down for a reason-to sound the note. You merely leave them in place instead of lifting.

Lifting gains you nothing. Zero. Nada. It is nothing but wasted motion. It slows you down. It doesn't do a thing for you in the plus column. There is NO reason to lift them individually. You are just burning calories that you can't spare!

It is not using any additional musculature to hold them down, if your hand is in a good position to begin with- you just leave them there. It will feel awkward at first, like anything else does including a chop chord, until you get used to it, all else being equal.

It took me three solid months of daily practice (4-6 hours a day) in front of a mirror to break the bad left and right hand habits I had developed over 15 years of playing. By then, I had graduated from Berklee, where I had NOT ONE piece of technical advice regarding playing- it was just, "alternate picking". That's all. So I had a LOT of mileage under my belt.

I had hit the wall speed and tone wise. Anyone who heard me around Boston in 1981 can vouch for how ham-fisted I was.

There is no secret to "sounding good"- it's figuring out what is the most efficient way to play your instrument and having something to say. To get to the bottom of those simple ideas takes time. Lots of it, too.

BTW- this "fingers down" advice came to me directly from Andy Statman and Russ Barenberg. I think Andy is the most advanced mandolinist on the planet, so the advice I am giving is merely passed on from him.

If your fingers fly and you are happy with the way you sound, just ignore my posts. I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I am just trying to pass on good common sense advice that helped me get out of a very deep and potentially disasterous rut.

[keith_rowan]

i had a quick question about this.. when practicing scales and decending across all 4 strings, do you move all 4 fingers to their position at the same time? ie, so that all 4 fingers are in position at the start of that string's "run" down the scale???

[jmcgann]

Keith, i don't plant all of them if I am descending, but I keep them pretty close to the string- sometimes touching the string at the frets and then pressing down as the notes descend...but if you see me on a gig, I may lapse into flying fingers too...try as i might not to! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

i think of it as trying to "stay in the neighborhood" with the left hand fingers. As always, the further out you go, the further you have to come back (sounds easy enough!)

[fatt-dad]

Uh, we're not talking about heavy lifting here. We're after a nice tone. To say it's harder to keep your fingers down or as difficult as lifting them is not on the point (IMHO). If you keep your fingers down on the note, it allows a better ringing tone and gives you more music (and produces a less choppy tone). Even if it were more "difficult" it would just be worth it.

fatt i'm-no-expert-either dad

[jmcgann]

Peter- you are one of the lucky few. Most of us grew up with fingers flailing away. I always thought it looked pretty rock and roll until i watched (Yes guitarist) Steve Howe and thought "that's different!" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Bob DeVellis]

Ahaa!! Big lightbulb goes on!! I don't know where I got the idea, John, but I'd assumed you were talking about pressing down all fingers. I think what you actually mean is just resting the fingers there on the strings passively, not applying force anywhere but on the actual highest finger? Have I got it right now? That makes perfect sense and I understand what you mean about economy of movement. You just release the tension of each finger as it finishes its fretting task and let it sit right where it is. I think I fall into the habit of hovering just above the string, but you're right, that doesn't really accomplish anything but some extra movement. I'll give it a try. Thanks much for your patience.

[jmcgann]

Hi Bob- I do hold the notes down as I ascend, on guitar, mando, bass...if you descend, they are waiting for you; if you go on to another string, they all release at once. See, you'd still be using musculature to release the notes as you ascend, which is halfway to lifting anyway. My way of playing is once a finger is down, it stays down until we move to another string.

For trying it out, slow WAY down and watch how smoothly you can make the connections...

[Kelly_guy]

John, that's excellent advice, but my fingers simply cannot do that. My middle and ring fingers come down 1 fret apart, and can't come down 2 frets apart, no matter how hard I try. So I could maybe do 02457 but I can't do 02357 and leave all my fingers down.

Because of this, I've just resigned myself to picking my fingers back up, although I have gotten better about the distance they move from the strings. They don't fly around as much as they used to.

[Mike Buesseler]

Sometimes it feels risky asking what seem like dumb or tedious questions....But, in this case--and as usual--I am SO glad I posted this one. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I got great answers to my question and more than that. I hadn't connected this issue with sounding "choppy," which is one of my main complaints about my sound these days. I thought the problem must be in my right hand, and try as I might, can not seem to improve my smoothness. I will now pay attention to my left hand more. Thank you, John, and everyone who piped up here. It is always comforting to find out you are not the only one with a certain problem.

[Ted Eschliman]

Pardon me if this is redundant, but this daily exercise helps me with my own personal struggle with "Flying" Fingers:
Lydian DUDU (http://jazzmando.com/LydianDUDU.pdf).
Simplifying the Right Hand helps me focus on the Left, and if you get a really healthy, wide pick stroke going, it's even more obvious to your ear how you are connecting each note with the left fingers.

[mzuch]

Wow. This is exactly the technique issue that is holding me back and that I discussed this week with my teacher. This message board ROCKS!

[Bertram Henze]

Now that it goes into anatomy this far, and after analyzing my playing style more thoroughly, I can get in line with those other small-handed people here. I play an OM with a 21" scale length, and a quite high action (I elevated it myself, because I like to play LOUD, and the Fylde Touchstone conveys it), and a small hand with a weak pinky I use on the E string only. Now playing a tune in D and reaching for C# on the G string with the ring finger just cannot be done with other fingers fixed somewhere. Even worse - if I play the Coleraine Jig I have to jump between A#, A string, index finger and G#, D string, ring finger; the widest stretch I could do is B - G.
So my style rather resembles a bass or zouk player's.

[OdnamNool]

Hmmm... #I must be lucky. #Holding those fingers down (ascending) and pickin' 'em up (descending) just comes natural to me. #The only time I pick up the fingers (ascending) is when the "reach" requires it. #I never think about it. #I just do it... #(I wouldn't have even known I did it, or considered it an issue, until I read this thread.) #So how come I still sound (and play) so crassly? (word edited...) # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[AlanN]

A good exercise for keeping fingers down and to gain finger independence is from something Alan Bibey showed me.

Finger a 5-1 B double stop with middle and index (4th fret on the D string, 2nd fret on the A string). Play 4, 7 (on D string; 7 uses the pinky), 2, slide into 6 , 2 (these 3 on A string), 7 (on D), 2 (on A). Tough to write out here, and even tougher to do <g>.

Do this cleanly and you'll sound like Alan (the other one, not me).

[OdnamNool]

I tried your exercise suggestion, AlanN, and I don't get it. Wouldn't it be great if there was an easy way to whip up (here, at M'Cafe) the strings on the mandolin, for chart purposes, or even staff paper, or tab paper (?)... (I don't quite know what "tab" is...) OH, Scawww-awwwwwwt!

Like this?
l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l
l l X l l l l l l l l l l l l l
l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l
l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l
l X l l l l l l l l l l l l l l

Hey Alan, can you edit my post to fill in the X's where they should go? Nope... I don't think you can. I think I got the first one right, but I don't understand the rest. (Sadly, I'm even unclear on "doublestops." We're talkin' playing only those 2 (4) strings, right? 2 notes...) Show us how to do it!

[jmcgann]

Andy Statman has very small hands and can play anything. Small hands are not the issue in my experience of teaching (don't ask how many years now!)...if you hold your left hand in a way that the side of the fingers touch each other, you won't get the "wingspan". I use the analogy of the duck's webbed feet- you want the webbing at the base of the fingers to allow day;light between them, so each finger is independent. This may require you to turn your wrist slightly to get a better angle and thus a better reach. No one should have to move the hand to play the notes in first position leaving the fingers down on ascent, unless they are really unusually small (Andy is about 5' 4" I think!)

[OdnamNool]

I have big hands. I just played a scale in first position, and my "pointer" automatically comes off the fret board when my "pinky" reaches for that 7th fret. (G major scale.) Should I concentrate on keeping it (pointer) down? (Sorry for hogging the thread, here... I'll quit now...) Just questions that popped up... Thanks.

[keith_rowan]

i do the same thing Odnam.. when i do have time to practice, i've been working mainly with mandohack's exercises.. no such thing as a dumb question!

[luckylarue]

Hey John, just curious as to what right-hand stuff you were focusing on during all those hours practicing in front of the mirror? I'm trying to unlearn some bad habits like flying fingers, etc. Thanks for all the great advice.

[jmcgann]

My right hand fingers were clenched in like a fist and I kept bashing my pinky knuckle on the high string. Andy got me to loosen the fingers- "let gravity work for you, keep them relaxed and it's not much effort to get the big sound". Not anchoring, as in relaxed right hand, is crucial for maximum flexibility and tone. YMMV.

Also on my Technique Tips (http://www.johnmcgann.com/techtips.html) page I elaborate on efficient right hand stuff- all things that I learned well after the fact and wish I'd have known about 15 years earlier, like angle of attack, drawing tone from the string, etc!

[Lee]

I think we should look at the "keep 'em down' rule two ways. My opinion comes from many years of classical violin lessons, but the same principals should hold true for mandolin.
I liked the term "economy of motion". By keeping the fingers down while practicing you'll develop a playing technique that maintains a hand/writst/arm position that will require less excess movement to finger strings. Note that I wrote "while practicing". To prepare a piece for performance, I'd concentrate less on the "practice" skills and more on making the music sing.

[AlanN]

OdnamNool,

Sorry, can't describe it/draw it any better (or worse). It's one of those things that you just have to see, either in person, like I did, or on paper. Bibey has some instruction stuff out there. The lick he showed me characterizes his playing to a great degree, he uses it a lot.

[Kelly_guy]

Andy Statman has very small hands and can play anything. Small hands are not the issue in my experience of teaching (don't ask how many years now!)...if you hold your left hand in a way that the side of the fingers touch each other, you won't get the "wingspan". I use the analogy of the duck's webbed feet- you want the webbing at the base of the fingers to allow day;light between them, so each finger is independent. This may require you to turn your wrist slightly to get a better angle and thus a better reach. No one should have to move the hand to play the notes in first position leaving the fingers down on ascent, unless they are really unusually small (Andy is about 5' 4" I think!)
John, it sounds great in theory, that nobody should have to pick up their fingers to play the pattern you're talking about. And it isn't a matter of small hands. I'm 6'1", and I can play the bluegrass chop chords with no difficulty.

My fingers just don't separate as you're describing. If I turn my wrist, then I can't play some other part of the pattern.

Not everybody is blessed with the same hand anatomy. My fingers simply cannot play 02357 without picking up at least one finger during the process.

[jmcgann]

Kelly, I hope we can meet up sometime- I would imagine if we worked on it together we could get it going. I have taught hundreds of people if not thousands by now, and I know that everyone's hand is different, but I've never had anyone unable to make the adjustment with some work...on the other hand (no pun intended!) if what you are doing is working out for you and you are happy, then there is no need to sweat it!

[OdnamNool]

Thank you for your reply, AlanN. #It's nice to know that we are friends... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[AlanN]

Agreed http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'll try again. The Bibey B blues lick, letter in () is the string. Use pinky for fret 7. Keep all fingers down unless needed.

fret 4 (D), fret 7 (D), fret 2 (A), fret 4 (D), fret 5 slide to 6 (A), fret 2 (A), fret 7 (D), fret 2 (A).

Clear as mud, right?

[arbarnhart]

Seems the general tendency is a rocking motin in my left hand. By them time I get to the pinky note, my index finger is searching for a note on the next string and the middle finger is ready to go somewhere else, too. But my fingers are by no means flying all over the fretboard.

That is more what I seem to do. Sometimes my fingers aren't flying, but they are kinda "milling around" because I lifted them with the rocking motion but haven't figured out where they are going yet. Or maybe they are flying in a holding pattern.

It may also come from learning the piano long ago. When a note's time interval is up, you have to lift or it will continue to sound. This is especially true on cheap polyphonic keyboards that have no decay logic and I have logged a lot of time on those over the years.

[mandocrucian]

Drills/exercises are different from playing. What you may do in an exercise may not be exactly what you do when "playing". The whole idea is that the exercises phase in a new default setting for your muscles, so that the tendency is to do a particular thing...such as keep the fingers down, and if not always on the string, very close (1/4", 1/2" at most) to the strings which functionally may be the same thing when it is non-adjacent fingers.

Another thing to keep things in perspective - you phase in the new hand motion defaults incrementally. First you'll work on finger pairs: 1st(i) and 2nd(m), 2nd & 3rd(m), 3rd & 4th(p), with 1 fret and 2 fret distances between the fingers. Don't worry about keeping the other fingers down at this point until you can get the adjacent fingers to do what you want.

Then, you can add another finger: i-m-r (1-2-3) in variations, and then m-r-p (2-3-4).

Then, when you get this down, then you can think about trying it with four finger combinations. #

Another consideration. (I personally )would rather have a student lift the 1st finger and have him/her use the tip of the pinky, than keep all 4 fingers down and be using the pad of the pinky. So I would stress playing with the pinky fingertip and then getting the index finger to stay down.

The reason you may not be able to do some particular technique may be that your hand just isn't ready to do it. #You don't have the prerequisite control or coordination to do it yet, but in time, you'll probably work your way up to that point. Maybe because of your physical hand structure, it will take more work to do it. Maybe it will take so much work that it is more cost effective to solve the problem with an alternative solution (shifting, stretch fingering, etc.) #

(However, maybe you are ready, but want instant results and are reluctant to put in the effort. Don't use the above caveat as an excuse and say that I told you not to bother.)

The same is true for intellectual components - some things won't make any sense until you are ready for it to start making sense. You learn your addition tables first, then the subraction mantra before moving on to multiplication or division. Whole numbers before fractions. Arithmatic before algebra or geometry.

A few example exercises on one string (do them on each string):

3rd & 4th fingers:
||---5r-6p-5-6-5--||--5r-7p-5-7-5-7-5---||


2nd, 3rd & 4th fingers:
||:--5r-4m-5-6p-5-4-5-6--:||:--5r-4m-5-7p-5-4-5-6--:||-5-||

||:--5r-3m-5-6p-5-3-5-6--:||:--5r-3m-5-7p-5-3-5-7--:||--5--||

NH

[twaaang]

But . . . but . . . but if you are actually pressing down on a string with more fingers than just the one that is noting, don't you get a different (sharper) pitch than when you are just pressing down with the noting finger? since with more fingers pressing down, the string is actually being forced to take a longer path from the nut to the bridge? -- Paul

[Mike Buesseler]

Paul, I'm going to jump in here, without any particular expertise, after having just tested this, and say, I don't think keeping those fingers down makes enough difference on the stretch of the string to affect intonation. I could scarcely notice the amount of movement (stretch) in the string behind the uppermost fretted note. What little stretch might occur is insignificant, IMO.

[OdnamNool]

Hey AlanN

If I'm understanding your exercise, it almost sounds like the famous "Layla" riff. #Does it? #What I don't get is that "slide into" business. #"Fret 5, slide to 6 (A)." #I mean, if you're on the A string with your ring-finger in the 5th fret, why wouldn't you just use your pinky to fret the 6th fret? #Where are you sliding to? #What threw me in the beginning, was that I thought the whole exercise was using "double stops." #You're right, it's hard to convey this kind of stuff using typewriter... #It's probably me and my lack of understanding of words such as "double stop," "slide," etc... #Oh well...

[AlanN]

You're right, it is kind of like Layla, never thought of that. Clapton must have learned it from Bibey then http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

You could do ring on 5, pinky on 6, but the slide from 5 to 6 is hipper and puts more oomph into the lick. Slides are to me a big part of the 'tough' sound that players like Thile, Bibey, McCoury, Compton, etc. get, with each of their individual styles thrown in.

[Flowerpot]

Yea, the slide sounds cool, and leaves the pinky open to do play the 7th fret. The idea is that it's not only a lick, it's a position from which your fingers can reach a lot of bluesy-sounding notes without shifting around or losing your place. In that lick,the first and second fingers never need to move at all, they just sit there. And since the notes are all closed position, it works as well in C or Bb

[OdnamNool]

This is so cool! #I'm learning my way up to hip-ness! #(I don't quite, fully understand it, but...) I'm assuming that the intention of the "slide" is to let all those in-between notes ring forth? #Like a... hmmm... #like a fire-engine-siren... #urrr...ururrrr...urUrrrrr...urURRRRR!!! #Is that right?

Thanks, AlanN. #I have been practicing that exercise. #I'm not good at it, at all... #But I'm practicing... #(Wish I knew the tempo.)

[AlanN]

It's a good lick, and as FP says, can be applied to keys like C, Bb, A and even across the fingerboard like E, F, G, etc., due to no open strings.

Tempo? Any speed is cool, Alan uses it mostly on mid-tempo tunes, and usu. throws in his triplets behind/in front of it. As far as I can tell, he defined this style of note piggy-backing, combining what heard blues players doing and what he heard in his own head.

[OdnamNool]

Hi.

I guess I meant "rhythm", not tempo. Thanks, man.

[djangolin]

You should do what ever is best for you at any given moment.And you will be fine

[OdnamNool]

Yep. Somewhere, in the back of my mind... I have heard that advice. Yep. It even came from a django-et...er.

[AlanN]

Another thing I do to train the fingers to stay down/close to the board is to vibrato whole chords, just a little. I saw a video a long time ago of Joe Carr and he vibratos constantly, when the timing allows it. I go to fingering say a G chord x523, and I wiggle a bit while the notes are sounding. Helps to get the fingers used to the shape.

[wsugai]

I was browsing this group and came across this thread about keeping your fingers down when playing. Tim O'Brien and Ray Legere are the two best examples that I have seen of this fingers-close-to-the-keyboard left-hand technique. On his DVD, Tim O'Brien talks about keeping your fingers close to the strings and spread out so that they hover right above the frets, but I can't even get close to how he does it. When I watch them play, I feel like I'm playing with my feet!

[Cheryl Watson]

Here's what I think: If you adjust all the way at once, it sure does feel strange, so get just a tiny bit closer to the fretboard with your fingers and stand up facing a wall to where your fingers touch the wall if they rise too high off the fretboard. Slowly but surely, get closer and closer and also adjust the spread of your fingers a bit at a time over a period of weeks and you will gradually change your form with better economy of motion. I find the same thing works with modifying/changing pick grip.

[Raider rider]

I have been reading and surfing all over this great forum for advice and technique to learn. I haven't even received my Mandolin yet, but have a back ground in guitar. Reading Johns and Tims as well as many others I have learned so much that will help me as I learn the Mandolin. I see and understand about the movements of flying fingers being a waste in a sense. So I understand that hovering over the strings will be helpful in gaining speed as long as the tone is being achieved first so keeping the fingers down holds true in sound quality and speed until the next note is on a different string. This has been very helpful and I have book marked your page of Technique to refer back too. Thank you for this thread I have learned from it. Hope others have as well.