Martin Style 20 Interest

[George Henry]

I have a line on a Martin Style 20 in decent shape. Nothing more serious than normal wear.. Asking price is $2200.

My style of music is old time and contra dance fiddle tunes. No bluegrass. My current mandos are a 1921 Gibson A and a Lafferty Schneider made A model with oval hole. I am satisfied with both my current mandos.

Do those of you who are familiar with the Martin Style 20 think it would be an desirable addition to my stable? I love the looks of the Martin but don't want a downgrade musically.

I don't have an opportunity to do a hands on of this mandolin, but have seen a similar Martin model with f holes, which I presume has similar workmanship.

[Jim Garber]

Workmanship is certainly similar but I believe that the style 20 (oval hole) is somewhat better sounding than the 2-20 (later with f-holes). I had a 40s 2-15 and it was not very loud though it sounded nice. I assume you can't try it before you buy it? That price sounds like a fair retail price assuming it needs no additional work.

My guess that your '21 Gibson woud be a better all round mandolin but if you love the Martin and can afford it, nothing truly wrong with it.

[zookster]

I owned a '29 Style 20 for a number of years. Should not have gotten rid of it! Perfect for old time, with a great 'bite' to the tone.
I would highly recommend purchasing one.

[usqebach]

I've got one that I think is the 2-15; oval hole, fully carved arch top without the points. Should play like the style 20. I think it's a lovely little mandolin, and has more refinement and better woods than your 1921 Gibson (I've got a snakehead A from around then as well).
That being said, I could never fit it in to anything I was playing at the time. If I wanted to beat out more volume (backbone, if you will) then the Gibson A model was better. If I wanted better tone at the expense of volume, my Vega Cylinderback was better.
So I always found that I was wanting just a bit more of something when I played it.

That's just my opinion; free and worth every penny!

[Jim Garber]

I've got one that I think is the 2-15; oval hole, fully carved arch top without the points.

That would be a style 15 (no prefixed 2-). The 2-15 has f-holes.

[George Henry]

My 1921 A model has seen little obvious playing time. It has good bite and little thud. I'd sure like to hear a Style 20 and get a real comparison with my A. Unfortunately I live about 900 miles from it.

[fifths]

The style 20 worked well for Bill Bolick!
https://youtu.be/KH2zM30w2dY

[Jim Garber]

My 1921 A model has seen little obvious playing time. It has good bite and little thud. I'd sure like to hear a Style 20 and get a real comparison with my A. Unfortunately I live about 900 miles from it.

I did search and I found one in a store of a big chain for that price. I don't know if that is the same one you are considering but I just did a pretty easy transaction of having the ship a vintage guitar to a closer store to me and they told me I just had to pay in full and would refund everything but the $20 shipping if I didn't like it. I could also have taken it home for 3 days and still returned it. That worked out quite well.

[George Henry]

I think that is the mandolin and that is the deal.

[Jim Garber]

And their closest store is over 900 miles from you?

[nmiller]

I was able to play that one today. It's in very good shape, with no cracks or other damage, just some light wear. The neck is straight and all the hardware appears to be original. According to Gruhn's Guide, the unbound fretboard makes it a '29, one of their first carved-top mandolins. The sound was definitely warmer and rounder than the 2-20 I used to have, if not as loud.

[Jim Garber]

I had them ship a 1930s 17-inch archtop guitar to my closest store (about a 40 minute drive) and if I decided it was not for me they would have charged me only $20 for shipping. You do have to pay in full upfront including tax as well but it got there in a few days, I was able to examine it and take it home and still had a total of 3 days approval period in which I could play it =, set it up as you like and even take it to your luthier or repair person to check it out and still return it to the store and they would take it back. BTW for some reason they post really bad or super small photos but you can have the store send good photos.

NFI, of course, on my part. I certainly have no connection to the GC Corporation. Let us know what you will do. We live vicariously through you.

Hey, it was great that you had vintage expert Noah Miller to check it out for you.

[George Henry]

Thanks for checking that one out! How do you think it would compare to a good 1921 A model Gibson?

[nmiller]

Thanks for checking that one out! How do you think it would compare to a good 1921 A model Gibson?

Those old As vary widely, but I actually think the Martin could pass for one in a blind test. It might have a bit less bass. The short scale and neck angle give it a very different feel from a Gibson.

[MikeZito]

If the mandolin you are looking at is at Guitar Center - it was probably mine . . . I sold it to them at a store in Connecticut, last week.

The mandolin has a great oval hole tone, and the action is low and easy. As Fifths pointed out in post #7, it works great for old-time music, as evidenced by my old friend Bill Bolick. Because of Bill, and my friendship with him, I have owned two Style 20's over the years, and have never been disappointed. The only reason I sold this mandolin is because (for a few reasons) I just could not justify keeping it anymore. My Style 20's have been good friends for the past 19 years, and I will always think of them fondly.

[George Henry]

Mike, you have increased my interest in this mandolin. Nice curlbto the maple? Frets in good shape?

[MikeZito]

I am certainly not an expert on woods or frets, and I don't want to give you any less-than-accurate information - especially given the facts that the mandolin is no longer in front of me, and that you cannot play the instrument in advance . . . so I will just give you my layman's observations and recollections.

When I first bought the mandolin it seemed to be in very, very nice shape for being nearly 90-years old . I think I commented here on the Cafe that aesthetically; 'the mandolin looks like it was made in 1929, played often but carefully for a year, and then put back in the case for eight decades.' (Unfortunately, it did not come with the original case.) The action on this mandolin was very low. The neck is straight, and I cannot recall any buzzes or dead spots anywhere on the fretboard. The tone is what I would refer to as a 'very old-time, oval hole sound' . . . that is to say that if you are looking for 'chop' this is not the mandolin for you, but if you like to play melodically, this is a winner. (Go to YouTube and type in Blue Sky Boys, 'Who's Gonna Shoe Your Pretty Little Feet' for a good example of the tone . . . and some fine playing.) The projection on this mandolin certainly would not constitute it as a 'banjo killer', but in an old-time, folk, small-ensemble setting, it will be just fine. The only odd thing about this mandolin is that I looked high, low, backwards, forwards, inside, outside, upside-down, right side-up and every other place, but I could not find a serial number - but given the features, I have not doubt that it was a 1929. The only other note is that the strings will DEFINITELY need to be changed, as they are pretty dead . . . but aside from that, I would give this mandolin my highest recommendation.

Feel free to let me know if I can help with anything else.

[Jim Garber]

George Henry: It sounds like you live about 1-1/2 hour drive from the Guitar Center store in Knoxville, TN. If you are hesitant in buying it sight unseen why not have them ship it from CT to the Knoxville store. The downside is that you have to pay upfront for it but the upside is that you can try it in person, play it in the store for a good amount of time and if you didn't like it you are out the drive tike and the one way shipping. You can even take it home for 3 days. I know it is a long drive but might be worth it. Or just have it shipped to you directly but not sure if you have to pay shipping both directions in that case.

[George Henry]

I have done such a thing 3 times. I have GC ship to the Asheville which is 1/2 hr farther but the tax in NC is 2.5 % less.

[Jim Garber]

OK. That makes sense. Now I do understand. I guess I didn't get that since you mentioned the mandolin being 900 miles away from you.

[George Henry]

I've decided to pass on the Martin mandolin. I've other projects to occupy my interest.

[George Henry]

The style 20 appears to have popped up again in Brooklyn at a greatly reduced price. I have purchased it and it's being shipped to Knoxville. Website says good condition. Because of pandemic return is increased to 90 days on vintage.

We shall see.

[William Smith]

It may be a good one but heck you won't know till you get her! Post pix etc... and then have some of the guys that know this stuff critique her!

[Steve 2E]

I think I have deja vu all over again. Well done, Ahab!:mandosmiley:

[George Henry]

Haven't heard anything about mando whereabouts. I did get email that order had been placed. I really don't care about fret condition as long as neck is straight. I would probably replace frets anyway. I worked for six years as set up tech for instrument maker and I do fret installation for a local builder.

I'm getting excited. I'm seen some YouTube videos of Style 20 and I like what I hear. More like Lyon and Healy than Gibson.

[Jim Garber]

Wow, I guess I didn't read the first post here, that you were pining for this mandolin for coming on 2 years.

[Steve 2E]

Wow, I guess I didn't read the first post here, that you were pining for this mandolin for coming on 2 years.

I think there’s two active threads about the same mandolin. Hence, my deja vu all over again in my previous post on this thread because I had been following the other thread.

[George Henry]

I do hope this Martin is nice. Fact is, I've never actually held one in my hands, although I had a friend with a 2-20 (f holes) which I used to lust after.

[Steve 2E]

GC buys can be tricky. I’ve found that I can never really tell what the condition is until it’s in my hands. They don’t seem to have a consistent system in evaluating instruments. I’m not trying to be a bummer, just want to help by limiting your expectations. I hope it’s what you’re looking for.

I recently bought a style 15 and I’m quite smitten! I do hope this style 20 works out for you.

[zookster]

I owned a 1929 Style 20, the first year of production. Hands down, this is the best mandolin Martin ever made, a wonderful design that performs admirably. I regret that I sold it! It even had the original ebony pickguard. DO NOT let the 13" scale fool you, it's a terrific addition.

[George Henry]

It's due for arrival in Knoxville on Wednesday. I am well aware of Guitar Center, having purchased many, some seen, others shipped in. If I don't like it, it doesn't stay with me. Most of my cureent stable of instruments came from GC, including a Yairi DRMR70SB, Larrivee SD-60, 1920 Gibson A, Eastman MDA 815, and Wildwood Troubadour. I have also returned a significant number which didn't please.

[Steve 2E]

It's due for arrival in Knoxville on Wednesday. I am well aware of Guitar Center, having purchased many, some seen, others shipped in. If I don't like it, it doesn't stay with me. Most of my cureent stable of instruments came from GC, including a Yairi DRMR70SB, Larrivee SD-60, 1920 Gibson A, Eastman MDA 815, and Wildwood Troubadour. I have also returned a significant number which didn't please.

Yeah, that’s cool! I definitely wasn’t trying to question your ability to buy an instrument. I have had some good purchases at GC and dealt with some really good people. It just seems that they don’t have a consistent system of evaluating vintage instruments and if you call and ask someone in the store they can’t always provide you with answers that aren’t vague.

I honestly do hope it works out for you. I am quite happy with my style 15! And my style A, too!

[George Henry]

You're right. Some stores will rate an instrument good while another store would rate the same as excellent. My salesman at Knoxville admitted he rated an excellent instrument as good, because even if it started out excellent, in 2 weeks time at GC it would have deteriorated.

When I first called the Brooklyn GC about this Martin, the answering sales guy to have little interest in helping. After asking for the ID#, he stated that the item was no longer in inventory, no ifs, ans, or buts. I called later the same day. Another salesman answered, said the mandolin was still in inventory, but that they were so backed up he couldn't take the time to examine it for me. He said that he remembered it to be "a collector rather than a player piece". He suggested calling back in several weeks when he might have more time to spend with me about the mandolin. Not much help. So I decided that my only real option was to go ahead and order it and check it out myself. And I did so through my Knoxville store, so that if the deal was finalized, my local guy could get credit instead of the dudes in Brooklyn who had no time for me.

[Jeff Mando]

George, I've had similar experiences when selling to Guitar Center. That is, you have to find the right salesperson who is interested in helping you. Some, will barely glance at an instrument and say, "we're not interested," while others will show some enthusiasm. I found one guy at our local store who is helpful and I always call ahead to make sure he is there before driving to GC. This is especially true when selling vintage, since all vintage pieces GC buys have to be approved by their Hollywood store. This is not complicated, but takes about an hour, digital pictures are taken and sent, and their vintage buyer makes an offer if they are interrested. I'm guessing some of the salesmen are just too lazy to do the steps.

That being said, I've sold quite a few instruments to them for really good money once you know how the system works. And, like you say, there are good deals there for buyers, also -- you just have to read between the lines and judge the condition and price by your own standards. And, you can't beat the free shipping and return policy!

Good luck, I hope it is a "keeper!"

[George Henry]

Tracking says she's arrived in Knoxville. I suppose I'll see what all the fuss is about soon.

[George Henry]

It didn't arrive. Something about a "mechanical failure" delaying delivery.

[Jim Garber]

Shipping has been pretty funky with all the carriers. I sent some important papers to my daughter in Baltimore a few weeks ago and I mailed them priority to get tracking. It should have taken 2-3 business days. It took eleven and there was no notification from USPS as to where the letter was.

I did a trade of a vintage guitar for a mandolin at the end of last year. I shipped it to the guy and it got there before Fedex estimate. The mandolin was shipped UPS and I got a notice the following week that it was on the truck. By 10pm nothing. Then they told me it was New Year holiday so it wouldn’t be delivered until 3 days later. Crazy stuff and nerve wracking when you have an expensive instrument involved. Oh well. It did arrive and it was and still is wonderful. Happy ending.

[Steve 2E]

A lot of carriers are operating near “peak” conditions. Since the shutdown began online sales for everything are through the roof. Delays should be expected. I wouldn’t worry too much, it will probably arrive safely soon.

[George Henry]

According to tracking, it arrived in Knoxville hub on Tuesday after 9:00pm. It's not to store yet. Mechanical failure Wednesday and delay on Thursday. Spent more time in Knoxville than it did on road from Brooklyn to Knoxville.

I sent a banjo from Townsend TN to Elkins, WV. via USPS. Got there in two days.

[Steve 2E]

Who’s the carrier? I don’t think UPS has mechanical failure as a delivery exception, but I could be wrong. Hang in there, it might show up tomorrow.

[V70416]

George,you are being cooler than I would be.

I absolutely do not like shipping or receiving instruments, but have done a fair amount
of it. Probably a dozen times. It can be very disconcerting.

We're all pullin for you!

[George Henry]

I picked the mandolin up today at GC in case I took an immediate dislike and decided on an immediate return. Aside from the rather shabby soft shell it came in, the mandolin itself was in remarkable shape for something 91 years old. Very clean and wear free, with a finish with only minimal wear. It's likely the same mandolin owned by Mike Zito. 1929 Martin Style 20 with Martin interior stamp but no serial #. My friend David Stutzman says some of those old Martins have #s, others don't. Very little fret wear, but I think they are bar frets.

I played the mandolin for an hour tonight with my fiddler wife. It has a definite old time tone; not as bassy as my Gibson A, but having more bite.

I'm going to check it out tomorrow, perhaps do a better set up and a string change.

So far, I like it. I even stopped at another store on the way home and bought a better case.

[George Henry]

I'd like share photos, if some will help. I've got an IPhone 5 and a Huewai tablet. No PC.

[Steve 2E]

Congrats! If you click the little picture of the tree in the toolbar you can upload photos from your phone.

[Steve 2E]

Oh, and the serial number and style might be on the neck block, not on the inside of the back like other Martins. It might be hard to see in poor lighting.

[George Henry]

Still unable to add photos to post. This is what happens when you spend all of your life learning instruments and none of your life learning computers.

[Jim Garber]

George. Wow an iPhone 5. Real vintage. :-)

Try this. Click the third icon from the right above this reply window here. That is the little tree icon. You should get a dialog box that says Insert image below that "From computer" and "From URL". If from computer it should say "Choose file" on a button. Click that. Then there should be a popup that says "Take photo or Video" or "Photo Library" or "Browse". If the photo is on your phone then click "photo library" and you should be able to see the photos you want. You may have to do this for each photo but you can try one and see if it works.

Test shot:
187407

Yes, it does work but it also posted it sideways. Could be worse.

[George Henry]

Still no luck. I’m at the point where I just tell you all there will be no photos.

[George Henry]

My wife and I spent an hour trying both on IPhone 5 and my Huawei tablet We got to the tree and tried uploading photos. The photo appeared and asked to choose. No idea how to choose.

[Jim Garber]

I just messaged you. If you can email them to me then I can post for you.

[George Henry]

Martin Style 20 1929

[George Henry]

I spent 1/2 hr wth son in law, professional person. Did not work so far.

[Sue Rieter]

I see it! It looks great! I can't believe you wanted it all that time, and now... here it is! How cool is that?

Sue

[George Henry]

Jim Garber agreed to help out in posting photos. Thanks Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here are George's photos. It looks rather nice.

[George Henry]

I am astounded at the quality of this piece. I can see why this came from what was called the Golden Age. This sample is so clean that it looks to have been made 5 years ago. Perfectly straight neck. Not even lacquer checking. The ebony pick guard wanted to clack against the top when I pressed down against it while picking. I solved that by attaching a small felt disc to underside of guard.

However, I can see some reasons the mandolin has had a hard time finding a permanent home. It's NOT a bluegrass mandolin. The tone comes straight from yesteryear. Think Nick Lucas, So it sounds great on old time, contra dance, and celtic.

[Brian560]

Nice mandolin !

[Steve 2E]

That’s a real beauty George! I have great respect for your patience in the acquisition. Enjoy!

[Jeff Mando]

Worth the wait! Very nice!

[George Henry]

I have a reprint of the Martin String Instruments catalog from 1929. The Style 20 mandolin was the only carved mandolin and most expensive mandolin in the lineup, at $75. The small catalog displays a full page picture of a mandolin just like mine. The catalog was in a book I own called The Martin Archives. Interestingly, instruments did not come with a case. Customers had a choice of four case options, from chipboard to hardshell.

[Jim Garber]

1930 Martin Catalog (https://acousticmusic.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Martin-1930-Catalog-Oct.pdf) courtesy of acousticmusic.org—turn to spread 14/page 24.

[Steve 2E]

I have a reprint of the Martin String Instruments catalog from 1929. The Style 20 mandolin was the only carved mandolin and most expensive mandolin in the lineup, at $75. The small catalog displays a full page picture of a mandolin just like mine. The catalog was in a book I own called The Martin Archives. Interestingly, instruments did not come with a case. Customers had a choice of four case options, from chipboard to hardshell.

I need to get that book! That cross references with Mike Longsworth’s book. There were two Style 15’s made in 1929, but they weren’t in the catalog until 1930. Martin went all in with the Style 20 in 1929. I
don’t think cases were standard until a bit later.

[George Henry]

The Martin Archives also contains a 1936 catalogue as well. The 1936 Style 20 included a Martin decal on headstock, white binding on the fretboard, and different pick guard design. The price remained $75. The 1936 catalogue includes a page on the 2-15 but only a listing of the 2-20 with no photo.
101 Style 20s were made in 1929. Only 18 in 1936.

[George Henry]

Fun Fact. One could have spent $75 for a Style 20 mandolin in 1936.It might be worth & 2000 today. Or $100 for a D-28 guitar. And it be worth $25,000 today.

[Jim Garber]

Then again you could have bought a hot Strad violin (https://www.nytimes.com/1987/05/14/nyregion/a-stolen-stradivarius-a-51-year-old-secret.html) in 1936 for $100...

[George Henry]

Photos

[George Henry]

I've decided to keep this wonderful mandolin. In fact, I've entrusted it to Bob Chuckrow to refret it with larger fret wire. He looked it over carefully and declared it a "really good mandolin" but the Martin bar fretting technique left them so low that "they are barely higher than no frets at all.". So after this procedure is complete I'll be set with a forever mandolin.

[rcc56]

I pulled the frets today.

" . . . not much better than no frets at all . . ."
The fret tops were about .015" above the face of the fingerboard. They varied in thickness between .031" and .036".
Pulling the frets on this instrument is not a job for beginners. There was very little surface to grab with the pullers, and the 12th fret would not come out by conventional means-- the pullers would not grab at all. I'll forego the details, but I had to get creative to pull it out of there.

For those who might be interested in what makes a style 20's tick, although at first glance it looks very similar to a Lyon & Healy style B, the carving is quite different. The arching is higher and more pronounced, with a rather deep "re-curve" near the edges. We might say that the Martin arching resembles a Kloz violin or perhaps a real Stainer [not a copy of a copy of a copy of a Stainer], while an L & H is arched more like a Stradivari. A measurement taken at the center seam directly behind the soundhole yields a top thickness of .0175", quickly becoming much thinner as it moves towards the ribs. I'd give more details, but I don't have a violin caliper.

There is a single transverse brace 1 1/4" on center behind the soundhole at the center seam, set at an angle with the bass side of the brace nearer the fingerboard and the treble side nearer the tail of the instrument. This brace tapers in a graceful S curve from its highest point under the E string to near nothing at its edges. It is very different in shape from a typical "straight topped" Gibson or L & H oval hole brace. We might say that the Martin brace is somewhat similar in profile to a wing brace from a pre-war Martin guitar, but the mandolin brace is considerably larger in its proportions.

All in all, this is a very nice instrument, with a bright, clear tone, and good projection. I can see why Bill Bolick played one as his instrument of choice throughout his life.

[George Henry]

I have done many refrets in my life, but no bar refretting. Since this is such a rare and special instrument, I thought it deserved the hands of a specialist.

I'll be glas to get it back. I'm excited!

[George Henry]

I retrieved the Style 20 from Bob. He did a fine job! Gone are the gnawed down bar frets (it played almost as a "fretless mandolin) replaced by much higher banjo sized T frets. Bob made it look as if the new frets are factory original.

The difference in playability is night and day. Formerly I struggled to get clean notes. Now they come easily. The mandolin always had great tone. Now it's easy to get that tone out of it.

Thanks Bob!

[George Henry]

Still playing great at 1.5 years of ownership. I alternate this Mandi with a 2006 Charles Horner A with a more bluegrassy tone. But the Martin is easier to play and has an incredibly unique tone.