PDA

View Full Version : No to cookie cutter mandolins



buckhorn
Oct-14-2018, 11:06pm
Like most builders, I've always been chasing that special sound and playability with all of my mandolins. But the look needs to be just right too to get people to want one. I've tried over the years (almost 20) to make each one an individual and yet try always for "that sound". By maintaining a Loar style, but using materials that are not always traditional, I am trying to build each a one-of-a-kind instrument... Am I going in the wrong direction? Back plates and necks have usually been figured maple. for the most part, but I've used other woods besides spruce for the top plates. Most have been spruce, but I've also tried fir and cedar with good success. For peg heads, ebony is used the most, but rosewood, walnut, and maple have been used too. For the points, everything is used from bone, to different woods, to ivoride and ABS plastics to get the look I want. Binding is the same way. Other then the top plates, do other builders feel these slight differences make any difference in the saleability of my mandolins? Is being the same more important, or not so much...…...

Mandobart
Oct-15-2018, 12:43am
I vote for variety - in tonewoods, style, color, etc. I'm personally not swayed by a Loar F5 sunburst replica. I'm a sucker for a natural finish, maple binding (the standard white cellulose or plastic does nothing for me), minimal to zero inlay, topped off with a western red cedar or redwood soundboard.

HoGo
Oct-15-2018, 2:04am
From makers perspective I'd go for consistency in tone and workmanship first so too many options would not allow me to get thorough understanding how various carving, archings etc of singe pair od species work together also binding with wood requires different set of skills than use of plastics.

Richard Mott
Oct-15-2018, 8:11am
I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about precisely this question. In one respect, working with as many different materials and designs as possible will give you a broader understanding of mandolin construction—over time—but with a more complex and potentially longer learning curve. By contrast, some other builders try to eliminate as many variables as possible, working with only one or two wood types having as consistent tonal properties as possible, so that they can more readily identify the decisions they make that affect tone. In that respect the approach allows them to go deeper sooner, whereas the many-variable approach goes broader. There seem to be real trade-offs between the two approaches. No names mentioned, but I know one California builder who uses no molds, incorporates a wide variety of wood, and every instrument is different than the one before. Almost like free-climbing. Another great California builder uses only a few varieties wood with nearly the exact same weight and stiffness so he can replicate his best results and dial in fine-level improvements. Both produce terrific instruments and have dedicated followings.

MikeEdgerton
Oct-15-2018, 9:59am
The problem is that people are fond of traditions. I don't see any musical instrument genre where designs change all that much all that fast.

Seter
Oct-15-2018, 10:07am
I think there are a lot of underutilized alternative woods that I am personally open to having on instruments, for instance I have a dogwood topped Appalachian dulcimer. There is something to be said with keeping certain parameters like shape within conventional bounds though, for things like players being able to find suitable cases, upgraded hardware, and other accessories.

JEStanek
Oct-15-2018, 11:26am
If folks want to buy your non traditional looking mandolins that is wonderful and fulfilling but you have to meet your expenses.

Jamie

Joe Mendel
Oct-15-2018, 11:38am
Alternative woods are a very hard sell, no matter how good the instrument may be. I love using different woods and most can make a very fine instrument, but try to sell it and it's a whole 'nother story. Most folks want something familiar. Look at Rigel mandolins, they couldn't stay afloat because they didn't look traditional, even using familiar woods. Some of those are the best feeling, sounding and playing mandolins I've ever had my hands on. A lot of people as least claim to like different things, but most aren't willing to pay for "different."

sblock
Oct-15-2018, 12:20pm
I've always wondered how many "alternative tonewoods" actually exist -- and are practical. Of course, we're all aware of multiple varieties of spruce, maple, mahogany, and rosewood in fairly common use for instrument building. But how many alternatives exist, really?

Tonewoods have to meet a number of fairly stringent criteria, and not all woods have the right properties. Among these are:

1) Tight and straight grain (esp. for the topwood)
2) Light (ditto)
3) Hard (esp. for the body wood)
4) Glues up well (does not reject adhesives -- some woods are too oily)
5) Available (not an endangered species)
6) Sufficiently sized pieces
7) Sounds good...

In practice, most wood varieties don't tend to meet more than a few of these criteria. Some trees are too small. Some are too rare. Some have knots or wavy grain. Some are too soft. Some have too much oil or sap. And so on.

I suspect the list of practical alternatives is surprisingly small. But I'd love to see a list!

colorado_al
Oct-15-2018, 12:53pm
I'm currently playing a JBovier with zebrawood back and sides. It sounds great and is quite beautiful! Agreed that many want spruce and maple only, and it might be hard to sell alternatives, especially if one cannot play the instrument before sale.

Bill McCall
Oct-15-2018, 12:54pm
For any business, the best compliment is when strangers give you money for your product. If your approach doesn't lead to a successful monetary stream then you have new choices to make. No business or artistic endeavor is guaranteed to be a financial success, no matter how admirable or lofty the motives.

But Van Gogh only sold one painting in his lifetime, so maybe thats a route to take as well.

just sayin.........

dhergert
Oct-15-2018, 1:16pm
The reason that the traditional bluegrass style mandolin is popular and sell-able today is Bill Monroe. He became famous, and he brought that style of mandolin up with him. If it had been someone else becoming famous with another style mandolin, we'd probably be discussing the woods used with that style of mandolin today here in this thread.

Similarly, if today's top-line artists play a different style of mandolin, those will be attracting attention. And we see that happening a bit today with Dawg, Sierra and a few other artists.

We aren't necessarily talking about a difference in wood quality. We're talking about a difference in what people see top artists playing. "If they are making such wonderful sounds with [the woods used in] their mandolins, that's what I want too." To a large extent, artist popularity sells the instruments.

Peter Barnett
Oct-15-2018, 4:06pm
Disclaimer, I have never built a mandolin. However, I have decades of experience turning wood and carving. Each species of wood has different characteristics and each piece of wood within a species is different with its own personality. Getting the repeatability required for production requires minimizing the number of variables which, to me, means sticking with a few choices of wood that you understand well.

Dave Fultz
Oct-15-2018, 8:13pm
What about mandolin cookie cutters?

171897

Caleb
Oct-15-2018, 9:11pm
I like the road less traveled approach, even though I own a trad burst-finished mandolin. But whenever I see a new maker make the same old thing, I always think: Just what the world needed, another burst F5 copy. But, that’s what sells.

colorado_al
Oct-15-2018, 9:20pm
What about mandolin cookie cutters?

171897

I prefer the cast bronze ones, not the pressed tin ones.

sunburst
Oct-16-2018, 12:43am
I can't possibly count the times I've seen someone on-line say they are tired of sunburst F5s, say they want to see something different, ponder why builders don't build with this wood or that, or use unique designs, etc. etc., but I surely can count the number of times someone has said "Here's $XXXX. Build me something completely different." (Hint, it is less than the number of thumbs on one hand.)

Steve Sorensen
Oct-16-2018, 1:04am
It happens.

171911

171912

171913

171914

But the traits of the components have to come together so that the tone, playability, and responsiveness of the instrument exceed both player prejudices and expectations.

Steve

PS - 100% Bamboo cutting board material (https://youtu.be/0DQM3cQTC7A)

Dave Hanson
Oct-17-2018, 1:07am
For the uninitiated accross the pond, can someone explain what a ' cookie cutter mandolin ' is ?

Dave H

colorado_al
Oct-17-2018, 1:17am
For the uninitiated accross the pond, can someone explain what a ' cookie cutter mandolin ' is ?

Dave H
Sure.
A cookie cutter is a metal form that is used for cutting identically shaped cookies from rolled dough.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cookie-cutter?s=ts

cookie cutter
noun

a device, usually of metal, for cutting shaped forms, as circles or stars, for cookies from dough that has been rolled flat.

Used as an adjective, it means identical or undifferentiable.

cookie-cutter
[koo k-ee-kuht-er]
adjective

having the same configuration or look as many others of a given kind; identical: rows of cookie-cutter houses.

lacking individuality; stereotyped or formulaic: a novel filled with cookie-cutter characters.

So a cookie cutter mandolin would be one that looks, and is built like, the stereotypical sunburst Gibson F5, made with the standard woods - spruce, maple, and ebony.

fscotte
Oct-17-2018, 4:13am
Balsa has been used.

Dave Hanson
Oct-18-2018, 12:55am
2 countries separated by a common language eh !

Dave H

Stephen Cagle
Oct-18-2018, 8:16am
I will admit most folks DO NOT vary from tradition much. Me also included. If I were a builder I most likely would not vary from the standard F5 shape. I've just always felt this way and for whatever reason I don't see that changing. If I were a builder I would build the standard F5 but do some different finishes. As most know I'm a huge fan of chocolate brown finishes and not really crazy about sunburst. Let me correct myself, if the sunburst isn't drastic I'm certainly good with that but the really high yellow and dark almost black edges no way! I would never buy a mandolin that had this type finish. I'll give an example. In the classifieds right now if it's not sold is a newly built "Greene" F5 that I personally think the builder is on the right track! This would be what I would consider "The Perfect mandolin". If I had 3500 it would absolutely be mine. A very subtle sunburst but standard everywhere else.
Just my 2 cents worth. ~o)

JEStanek
Oct-18-2018, 9:16am
If your market will be the bluegrass style I would say you need to be able to build something that delivers that sound and that's most likely an arch top/back, elevated fingerboard, ff holed mandolin in (typically) an A of F shape. Once you can deliver that sound, you can think about tweaking the design and shape to fill your desire to create new.

Colors and inlay are just kind of blingy things to my minds eye and really aren't venturing into too much new territory. Folks may like a different color now and again but the finish is more important than the color (at least tonally).

I think Marty Jacobson and Brian Dean are doing non-traditional very well. Many of the others that don't have strict F5 shapes still have those F5 elements at heart.

I have a cant top A style, a two pointer, and a couple of old bowl backs (only one of those plays). I had a Brian Dean made L&H Style A replica that was almost a cylinder back as well. I love non traditional looking instruments but I'm a small minority of a small minority of stringed instrument (mandolin) enthusiast!

Jamie

DavidKOS
Oct-18-2018, 11:26am
This is quite an interesting discussion for those of us that think that an Italian style bowl back mandolin is "traditional"!


The reason that the traditional bluegrass style mandolin is popular and sell-able today is Bill Monroe. He became famous, and he brought that style of mandolin up with him. If it had been someone else becoming famous with another style mandolin, we'd probably be discussing the woods used with that style of mandolin today here in this thread.



I believe this too. IF BM had used a Lyon and Healy, the mandolin world would be making copies of them instead of copying Gibson.

If another style of music had become ascendant with a mandolinist at the center, we'd be using whatever they played.





So a cookie cutter mandolin would be one that looks, and is built like, the stereotypical sunburst Gibson F5, made with the standard woods - spruce, maple, and ebony.

Pretty much!

Anyway, thanks for the interesting read about mandolin design.

Br1ck
Oct-18-2018, 12:43pm
Sorensen mandolins are the definitive thinking outside the box mandolins. They are the perfect example of pushing the design envelope without going too far. Exquisite is the word that comes to mind.

Rob Meldrum
Oct-18-2018, 1:06pm
To put another spin on this, think of your brand... If you're going to be a serious builder, part of what makes your instruments special is that when people talk about your instruments they can find a commonality that they feel is important. For example, when I talk about a Martin dreadnaught guitar most guitarists relate to the strong bottom-end and projection you can get from a Martin. With a Taylor it's the fit and finish of the instrument, and the generally "clean" sound you get. A Fender Strat is all about the sound and the playability of the neck. Hopefully you get my drift.

If you make a dozen different mandolins and each one uses different tonewoods, construction techniques, bindings and shapes, you don't have a brand. You have a bunch of one-offs that may or may not sound good or play well. Who knows? I can't imagine a serious player shelling out $5,000-10,000 for something completely different than anything you have made or they have played before. But, hey, that's just me. I don't drop that kind of money on anything without doing a lot of research and comparison shopping...

Jack Roberts
Oct-18-2018, 1:24pm
Alternative woods are a very hard sell, no matter how good the instrument may be. I love using different woods and most can make a very fine instrument, but try to sell it and it's a whole 'nother story. Most folks want something familiar. Look at Rigel mandolins, they couldn't stay afloat because they didn't look traditional, even using familiar woods. Some of those are the best feeling, sounding and playing mandolins I've ever had my hands on. A lot of people as least claim to like different things, but most aren't willing to pay for "different."

I've bought "Alternative woods" both from Joe and another builder. I doubt I would have any trouble selling Joe's instrument, although I don't think I ever would, but I have had bad news about the other instrument. I took it to Gryphon and got a very depressing evaluation. Although it is a sonically excellent instrument, it is not not a good candidate for the used market.

Oh well, I like "different."

colorado_al
Oct-18-2018, 2:26pm
I've bought "Alternative woods" both from Joe and another builder. I doubt I would have any trouble selling Joe's instrument, although I don't think I ever would, but I have had bad news about the other instrument. I took it to Gryphon and got a very depressing evaluation. Although it is a sonically excellent instrument, it is not not a good candidate for the used market.

Oh well, I like "different."

I think there is a buyer out there for every good sounding mandolin. It is just a matter of finding them. I'd list it on the classifieds here and see if you get any interest.

HappyPickin
Oct-19-2018, 6:57pm
The thing that caught my eye with my mandolin was that it is unique. Then it caught my ear and my house didn't get new windows this year.
171998

Tom Haywood
Oct-20-2018, 10:32am
There's a reason that approximately 95% of music stores have an average of 0 - 2 mandolins hanging on the wall, and those mandolins are priced below $400 and sport "traditional" designs. It is because not many people open their wallet and purchase mandolins, much less higher quality mandolins. "Traditional" includes the name on the headstock, which is brand. The fewest purchasers seem to be the ones primarily interested in quality sound. Brand and bling reign. I think just about all purchasers are looking for something that will maximize resale value, even if they intend to keep the instrument forever, which means brand and bling. I, too, like to build each one as a unique instrument with primary focus on the sound. As mentioned above, that makes them one-off instruments. I don't care whether they sell or not, so it's not a big deal. If the sound is good, they usually sell when they find that rare person who is looking for good sound in a unique instrument. If I were trying to make a living from this or even cover all my costs, I would change my focus.

Charlie Bernstein
Oct-20-2018, 11:20am
Alternative woods are a very hard sell, no matter how good the instrument may be. I love using different woods and most can make a very fine instrument, but try to sell it and it's a whole 'nother story. Most folks want something familiar. Look at Rigel mandolins, they couldn't stay afloat because they didn't look traditional, even using familiar woods. Some of those are the best feeling, sounding and playing mandolins I've ever had my hands on. A lot of people as least claim to like different things, but most aren't willing to pay for "different."
That's interesting. I'm a buyer, not a builder. I do like the traditional A shape, but wood? I love playing instruments made from all kinds. Cedar, walnut, rosewood, cherry - they all have looks and personality.

I'm surprised more buyers don't feel the same way. Too bad! Maybe the thing to do is make every seventh or eighth mando a departure from Normsville, just to amuse yourself.

Glassweb
Oct-20-2018, 11:26am
I know of plenty of builders that have spent incredible amounts of time, labor and money building instruments that did not attract a viable or appreciative audience. There's a reason why the top mandolin builders, be they solo entrepreneurs or larger enterprises, are successful. Gilchrist, Gibson, Ellis, Collings and Northfield come to mind...

To me the main factors in the purchase of a new mandolin are neck shape, playability, sound and, of course, fit and finish... after that it's all window dressing.

Steve Sorensen
Oct-20-2018, 11:37am
I guess it depends on how you want to get from A to Z --

172012 OR 172013

Both will get you there. And nobody ever actually DIED of boredom.

Steve

DavidKOS
Oct-20-2018, 11:44am
Unless a maker is a true amateur - meaning doing it for the love of it at a high level, not meaning "mediocre" or "unprofessional" as the term often implies now - they need to be compensated for the time, effort, and cost of making an instrument.

I used to work at a music wholesale/dealer/importer and dealt with small shop makers of many instruments, including mandolin makers, and to actually make enough money to sustain a small business requires a lucky combination of many factors.

One of which is what actual instrument do you make and how many of them will you sell. Simple math, in a way - you have to sell enough instruments and have to be able to produce enough too.

I can see why mandolin makers have a tight-rope act as mandolin is not as popular and guitar and 'ukulele, can be somewhat expensive in comparison, and there is a market-driven taste for a certain type of mandolin.

Innovation would be tricky, as many of the posts from both makers and buyers have shown.



The fewest purchasers seem to be the ones primarily interested in quality sound. Brand and bling reign. I think just about all purchasers are looking for something that will maximize resale value, even if they intend to keep the instrument forever, which means brand and bling. I, too, like to build each one as a unique instrument with primary focus on the sound. As mentioned above, that makes them one-off instruments. I don't care whether they sell or not, so it's not a big deal. If the sound is good, they usually sell when they find that rare person who is looking for good sound in a unique instrument. If I were trying to make a living from this or even cover all my costs, I would change my focus.

Tom has an interesting take on this, as a maker, and that is a primary interest in the sound.

But what "sound"? A Loar-esque F model set up for Bluegrass? A Lyon and Healy? An A model w/ oval hole for an old-time musician?
A bowlback for me? One of those Brazilian bandolim type instruments?

To me the most important features in a mandolin would be the "sound" and the playability. Looks are completely secondary.

However, agreeing on what sound we want is another issue. And although it is unlikely, there still could be a new, widely adopted mandolin design with another new sound to add to the list.

https://i.etsystatic.com/17783094/c/2552/2027/311/182/il/a67a74/1594218900/il_340x270.1594218900_ih71.jpg

Br1ck
Oct-20-2018, 12:34pm
You would think that young people would be looking for new and different, but for decades now have been buying strat, Tele, and Les Paul shaped guitars with the odd unsuccessful Firebird thrown into the mix. On the acoustic side dreads, 000s, with the radical new idea being cut aways. Is it any wonder that an instrument whose proponents are largely playing blue grass or old timey, possibly Americana, would want instruments steeped in tradition?

Heck, I remember what a leap buying my redwood topped Silverangel was, for someone buying their first good mandolin. Lucky for me I didn't know any better. But making a mandolin with something other than the standard shape sound holes limits one's market.
You have to be a brilliant designer like the previously mentioned Mr.Sorenson to pull it off, and really, how deviant are his really?

RustyMadd
Oct-20-2018, 3:14pm
Radical instrument designs are most often merely expressions of particular egos. If mandolin was the "ax" of Rock and Rollers, then alternative and radical designs would be more commonly sought. Bluegrass, Old Time and Americana all have a built-in predilection for maintaining and respecting tradition. Perhaps that could be germane? Blessings

Br1ck
Oct-20-2018, 3:43pm
Radical instrument designs are most often merely expressions of particular egos. If mandolin was the "ax" of Rock and Rollers, then alternative and radical designs would be more commonly sought. Bluegrass, Old Time and Americana all have a built-in predilection for maintaining and respecting tradition. Perhaps that could be germane? Blessings

But look, the Rock and Rollers are playing strat and tele style guitars, or Les Paul, 335 or Gretch variants or other retro styles. How many Steinberger like designs survive? Next to none. There have been quite a few really innovative designs. No one plays them.

dhergert
Oct-20-2018, 5:17pm
... No one plays them.

Again, if today's top-line artists play a different style of mandolin, those will be attracting attention.

I know of at least one well known builder which is going out of its way to make sure top performers, and even up-and-coming performers, are playing its instruments on stage. One such builder is actually well known to this thread. That philosophy, along with a remarkably good design, is paying off nicely.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

MandoMN18
Oct-20-2018, 6:48pm
I’m considering having a mando built similar to this... maroon face, natural back and sides, tortoise binding. I’ve been told on the Cafe that it’s resale value won’t be as good with the natural finish since it is different than the normal sunburst. Although I hope to never want to sell it, the fact that others seem to not love that combo does give me hesitation to go forward with it as I also look at it as an investment. 172017..172016. Pictures for examples

Skip Kelley
Oct-20-2018, 6:55pm
Two of my favorite builders are Ken Ratcliff and Steve Sorensen. They build what they want and I am a huge fan of their work! They are true artists in my opinion! Around this area, most people want traditional.

DavidKOS
Oct-20-2018, 7:03pm
Radical instrument designs are most often merely expressions of particular egos. If mandolin was the "ax" of Rock and Rollers, then alternative and radical designs would be more commonly sought. Bluegrass, Old Time and Americana all have a built-in predilection for maintaining and respecting tradition. Perhaps that could be germane? Blessings


But look, the Rock and Rollers are playing strat and tele style guitars, or Les Paul, 335 or Gretch variants or other retro styles. How many Steinberger like designs survive? Next to none. There have been quite a few really innovative designs. No one plays them.

Bass players have been more prone to innovative designs than guitarists since the 70's.

Sure, there were creative designs like the Steinbergers and Parkers.

The only "innovative" guitars that have had a following of any size since were the Superstrats of the 80's and PRS, but mostly Teles, Strats, Les Pauls, SG's, 335's, a couple of Gretsch's, and since grunge, the odd Fenders like Jazzmasters and such have still been the basic tools for pro electric guitarists. Rather than go for innovative designs, there has even been a trend to make copies of mediocre instruments of the past! Look at the copies of Harmonies, Silvertones, Danelectros, Supros and other less than stellar instruments of the past that are made now.

So there is no guarantee that if mandolin was popular in other more adventurous genres that it would have any different affect on mandolin design and popularity.

pheffernan
Oct-21-2018, 7:41am
I’m considering having a mando built similar to this... maroon face, natural back and sides, tortoise binding. I’ve been told on the Cafe that it’s resale value won’t be as good with the natural finish since it is different than the normal sunburst. Although I hope to never want to sell it, the fact that others seem to not love that combo does give me hesitation to go forward with it as I also look at it as an investment.

A custom built instrument is an investment in pleasure, but it is far more likely to depreciate 30% in your possssion than the opposite.

GeoMandoAlex
Oct-21-2018, 7:53pm
I currently have a Weber Gallatin with a mahogany back and sides that I enjoy. Most likely would like to have a walnut back and sides if the funds are available. I have a maple back mandolin already, but the Weber gets the most playing time.

Bob Clark
Oct-21-2018, 9:32pm
To put another spin on this, think of your brand... If you're going to be a serious builder, part of what makes your instruments special is that when people talk about your instruments they can find a commonality that they feel is important. . .

I think Rob is making a good point here. To have a recognizable brand is something of value. There are plenty of examples in the mandolin world.

One would be the brand Rolfe Gerhardt built with his Phoenix mandolins. His mandolins were different from the usual designs. Even through the different models, which were voiced very differently one-from-the-next, they all had his signature two-point look. And you knew generally what each model's voice would be, allowing for some variability due to individual mandolin differences. He made a line of recognizable mandolins that stood out from the typical mandolins and did so for many years. Unfortunately, his brand is no longer with us, but his mandolins live on.

Another recognizable brand is that of Mike Black. Although he may make some different instruments from time to time, when we hear his name, we picture finely made mandolins of the A4 or A5 variety, or GBOMs. So if you're looking for a quality instrument in those styles, you know where to go.

And how about Campanella? Again, we can close our eyes and picture his instruments. His style is his brand.

But maybe a brand can be an ongoing series of one-of-a-kinds. I don't know how you'd get a following that way without first starving to death, but maybe it's possible. In the world of the small-scale winery (my arena) that brand recognition is important. It is what puts food on the table. My guess is, it's the same in the mandolin world.