My Weber Yellowstone isn't loud enough

[mlbex]

I'm fairly new to mandolin, and while researching future upgrades, I saw the chance to get a Weber Yellowstone and jumped on it. I love the look and sound of it, but when I take it to jams, it seems like I can't hear it.

At a jam the other night, there was a very good mandolin player with a Lebeda. Everything he played was loud and clear. So I asked him to play my Weber for a few songs, and he was difficult to hear. He agreed, saying that the Weber "wasn't very loud".

My question -- can I do anything to make it louder? I use phosphor-bronze strings in the standard gauge (I think it's 11 to 34), and I tried raising the bridge a bit, although I can raise it more if I need to. Any other ideas?

Thanks

[Ken Berner]

You might try a Brekke Traditional bridge for your Yellowstone. There have been discussions over the last couple of years concerning solid maple (non-adjustable bridges) solving the volume problem. In some jam situations, you can barely hear your own instrument, that is, until you play an instrumental break. Large jams are no longer a joy for me, as they are entirely too loud and timing becomes a real problem. Good luck.

[Mando4Life]

Aside from playing time, I'd go for a traditional style bridge. I had one put on mine and it made a difference. also check out www.tone-gard.com....It'll help you too.

Other things you could try are different strings and picks (both thicknesses and materials).

WBL

[davestem]

Also, make sure you have it well set up. #A bad setup can rob volume. #Particularly an ill-fitted bridge.

[earthsave]

You sure you dont have 11/41's on there? A 34 would be an extra/ultra light gauge.

[sgarrity]

Thats what I was going to ask. Get some J-74's and that should help a lot too

[Justin Carvitto]

I had the same trouble with mine (2002 weber yellowstone new). Just WHALE ON IT ALL THE TIME and keep new strings on it too. After three years mine is finally breakin' in and now Iam able to be heard at jams and and with better tone.

Best of luck.

[mlbex]

Thanks all...

String gauge -- my strings are 'standard gauge', so I might have misquoted the G-string. They are definately not light or super light, so that g = 34 is misstated.

I looked up J-74s on the web. That looks like what I have now. (the mando and strings are at home and I'm at work, but the package looks real familiar)

The bridge is the adjustable Brekke that came with the instrument from Weber. It looks fitted correctly. There are no gaps between it and the top of the instrument.

I might get the local music shop to quote/build a solid bridge. What makes a Brekke solid bridge different from any other solid bridge?

The local luthiers, whom I trust, have looked at it and didn't complain about the setup. The fellow who played it at the jam said it was easy to play, and that is my experience as well.

Large Jams: I too prefer a small jam where I know what's going to happen, it's not too loud, and I can count on the timing (most of the time). But I like the social interaction of a (polite) large jam, and that's where I would find people to invite or be invited to small jams. Besides, I want to learn play with a lighter touch no matter what, so more volume should help me do that, even in the quiet spots.

If I whale on it for three years, I'll bet I'll be able to play it much better too :=). Maybe I'll need one mando for light touch playing and one for whaling on (Oh no, I feel a case of MAS coming on!)

[pickinNgrinnin]

Try an adjustable Loar style bridge. You can find them at Stewart McDonald, First Quality Music Supply, ELderly, Cumberland Acoustic and Roger Siminoff. I just received one from Roger and it's very nice.

This bridge would be a fairly inexpensive experiement to see if it alters volume/tone. The Brekke Bridge seems to work well on some Mandos and not well on others IMO.

What is your string height? Higher string height generally leads to more volume.

[250sc]

The next time you are at a jam and you feel another player's mando can be heard and yours can't, talk to him and ask if he'll play yours for a song or two.

You might find you can hear yours too. It could be his technique and not his instrument or the fact that his sound hole(s) are pointing at you and your are pointing away from you.

[Chris Burt]

Consider a ToneGard. Lovely things. Using one will allow the back to perform to its fullest.

[bluegrassjack2]

Different picks make some mandolins sound louder.

[kudzugypsy]

your volume is going to come from the wrist of the right hand.

all these tips are helpful, but you will be chasing a fast rabbit with a slow dog until you build up some right hand technique. are you new to mandolin? - did you come from guitar? - it takes a different right hand to play mandolin and get that volume.
check on some of the recent posts about right hand technique.

[Darren Kern]

kudzugypsy, I was waiting for you to speak up http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

mlbex, this is good advice. I didn't realize I was picking "at" the strings versus playing through them, and now I can even get volume out of the cheap POS I'm playing at the moment. I still have a lot to learn, but my volume has quadrupled.

[Loren Bailey]

I'll second the advice to go to a traditional loar style bridge. My Weber Gallatin benefited greatly when I traded out the Brekke. All Webers seem really "tight" to me at first. Keep bangin' away on it. I've had mine for 10 months now and I feel it's just now forgetting it was a tree.

Loren

[250sc]

I'm suprised that out of all of these replies the majority of posts suggest hardware changes and only 2 or three discuss technique.

[David M.]

I'm suprised that out of all of these replies the majority of posts suggest hardware changes and only 2 or three discuss technique

Probably because on SOME mandolins, no matter what kind of attack one takes w/right hand, they just won't be as loud as others or as loud as they want them to be. Just the nature of the beast. If it's not there, the right hand can't bring it out, in my opinion.

[mlbex]

OP

Technique: I knew my technique wasn't developed enough to trust, so I asked the expert in the jam play it for a few tunes. I couldn't hear him play it either, at least not nearly as much as when he was playing his own Lebeda. He also said that it wasn't very loud.

Now my range of choices is limited but more rational -- try to change it so that it is loud, trade it off for one that's louder, or live with one that's not very loud. (I'm still going to work on my technique, but I don't believe that will salvage the volume on this mandolin).

I checked -- I have the J74 strings. I misquoted the string size in the original post.

I raised the action -- it didn't help much, so I lowered it again (easy with the Brekke bridge).

If I buy a Loar bridge, what's a reasonable price for having it shaped?

I went to the local store and played lots of mandolins, loudly in a quiet room. A new Gibson A9 was consistently the loudest, although it had few overtones. Many of the mandos seemed to fade badly when I played around D and E notes on the G string.

I don't feel brave enough to plunk down the bucks for the Gibson yet, but I have a lot more info to go on. Maybe I'll find another.

Thanks

[David M.]

Mike, I just PM'd you with some info.

A Cumberland Acoustics bridge would run about $50 + $50 or so for fitting. You can do this yourself, too.

Did you try J75 strings? Sometimes this change may be all you need.

[mandroid]

The Tone-gard allows the back to not contact your body, even while holding it standing ,while seated, keeping it held away from you is easier, no accessorys needed. rim is not wide [unlike bowl backs] so there is an interaction between the top and back.
like a fiddle on a shoulder rest.
relatively frequent string changes; bronze tarnishes from oxidation, and the dents on the back change the waveform, a trifle.
monel seems to tarnish slower.

[Clyde Clevenger]

I've tried the adjustable Brekke Bridge on two mandolins, an F5-L and a Bush. It just seemed like the best possible way to make an adjustable bridge. In both cases it was like hitting the off switch, no volume, no sustain and uneven tone. I had them fitted by a Weber dealer and it looked like a perfect fit. I'm sticking with the Loar bridge, even thought it just seems wrong, wood to metal to wood. Why did I try it again??? Some folks just have to keep tinkering and are thick headed.

[Chip Booth]

I have to agree, all Yellowstones I have played with the best volume and tone have a traditional bridge rather than the Brekke. Also as mentioned, Webers start life tight, and the best way to get them to sound good and develop tone and volume is to wail away. It can take some time but every one that I have ever seen that has been consistently played has come to life.

Chip

[Professor PT]

Maybe there's just too much mass to the Brekke? I've heard that idea kicked around in the Builders and Equipment sections. Maybe if there were a thinner version it might sound better. Gee, that Loar guy must have known something about mandolins!

[Nick Triesch]

I am not being negitive But all mandolins just are not loud. some are just born that way. I had a Martin D28 for years that just was not a good one as volume was concerned. I traded for a James Goodall. I owned a high quality mandolin a few years back that just would not open up. Whenever I would compare it to others it would lose out to other good mandolins. I ended up trading it. I now own a weber F5 Fern that has the super pop and bass I was looking for. Just the way it is sometimes. A bad martin in the old days was called a turkey. There are a lot of good ones but also a lot of turkeys out there. IMHO please. I mean no harm. Nick

[RichM]

Have you considered drilling extra sound holes?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[neal]

Cumberland bridge-50.00
Siminoff bridge-22.00 Same ebony Loar repro, what's the diff? If you're gonna plunk down money for a new bridge.........

[pickinNgrinnin]

I picked up an Ebony Loar style bridge from Roger Siminoff last week. $26.00 - It's perfect. I agree with Neal. No need to spend more. Roger is a great guy to work with.

[Scott Schmidt]

I'll add another vote for changing bridges. #I have had two Yellowstones that both came with the wedge style Brekke bridge. #I changed both of them out to the Brekke traditional style bridge that Weber offers. #That helped each of the instruments a lot! #As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, Webers are kind of tight at first, but once you play them a bit, they open up very well. #The Yellowstone I'm playing now is almost three years old and it's turned into a cannon! FWIW, I use D'Addario FT74 strings on it.

[jim_n_virginia]

Are you playing with a guitar pick? If so...try a Golden Gate or another heavy pick and see if there is any difference.

[Kevin Briggs]

I plau a maple bitteroot with tone bars, and I've always had the Brekke Loar-style bridge, not the all-wood one. I also use J75s, because they offer a much bigger sound.

I have no volume troubles, and on more than one occasion other musicians have flat out stated, "what a Great sounding mandolin." It has sounded good from day one, and seems to hum and vibrate a bit more after about 9 months of playing.

I tried J74s for easier action, and because Grisman endorses them, but they had way less ### to them. There was a notable difference. The only thing about the J75s is they will be a bit stiffer, making the action a little rougher going. They also break a little more easily, because they are under greater tension.

Remember, the Brekke all-wood bridge is not designed to be a bluegrass bridge. If you want a bluegrass mandolin, you have to set it up that way, including adding a bluegrass bridge.

You can always call Paula and request some suggestions for getting more out of the mandolin. I'm almost positive they've heard the low volume complaint before, and she's great to work with.

[Nolan]

I've heard this problem before with other weber owners but the funny thing is... all the webers I've heard on stage sounded great and I really liked their tone. #When you get in front of a mic volume is less of an issue and this may just be a problem with jamming. #

The best mandolin for jamming isn't always the best sounding mandolin....

[Stephen Perry]

I've had a variety of Webers in for work and have had a couple traded in. They are rather smooth sounding for the most part and may well seem quiet to players. In front of them they are quite as loud as other mandolins, at least to my ears. The energy seems to lie in a different part of the spectrum than some other mandolins, part of their character.

The biggest single adjustment for volume on these and other mandolins seems to be getting the bridge pressing down evenly. Low volume and irregular response seem generally traceable to too much pressure on the fingerboard edge of the bridge, rather than even pressure across the entire bridge seating surface.

I trust these observations are useful. The Weber line is very nice and I believe volume concerns primarily spring from adjustment.

[Kevin Briggs]

Well put, Steve. I play my Weber everyday, with its traditional bridge bad self. I've had three bad setups, and I finally bit the bullet and set it up myself. I tweaked and adjusted until it kept its chunk and popping single notes, but maintains a nice playing action.

For so long I had it setup with very high action, because I got such a booming chop out of it. However, the action was rough, and I didn't get any hum. Here's how my setups went, in order:
1. Way too low, lost any tone, strings buzzed due to bad truss rod adjustment
2. Still too low, but I made him raise it on two occasions before I took it back. Truss rod still caused buzz
3. Bridge height was good, based on specs I gave the guy from Steve Gilchrist. I took Steves basic setup, then raised it a bit. i don't care for the Chris Thile sound. I like the Sam Bush chunk.
4. Did it myself; loosened truss rod to a rattle; realized mistake; tightened it again; bought ruler and measures action at 2.5/32, or so, which is lower than what I used to have, but is now my new action.

I may still raise the bass end a little, to get a hint more chunk, but I don't want to lose the hum I'm getting right now (get your mind out of the gutter). My fingers are adjusting to the lower action too. They were so strong from battling the 3.0-3.5/32 action I was using. I'm finally starting to settle in.

Anyway, you're right Steve, most of it is about the setup.

[flairbzzt]

If you want it to get louder, marry it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif