Would appreciate help identifying Gibson Mandolin

[Polkadude]

Serial # 812XX (Very faint pencil but visible)
Appears to be vintage 1925.
Number on neck block: 1198
Neck is straight, action low and playable at every fret.
Sound is loud and clear, no buzzing whatsoever.
Instrument is not for sale.
Would appreciate help in identifying the model, which is no longer visible.
Also, does the hard shell case appear to be original?
Thanks!

[F-2 Dave]

A-2? Very nice. No reason I can see to think that's not the original case.

[Polkadude]

Is there anything visible to distinguish between an A2 and an A2Z?
Would that make any difference from a value standpoint?

[F-2 Dave]

At least some of the images in the mandolin archives show an inlay between the rings around the oval hole on A-2Z's. I don't know if they all did. Yes it would change the value. A-2Z's generally command a higher price. Can you tell if there are numbers stamped inside the body of the mandolin? This would be the factory order number from which we could glean more information.

Oops. I just saw you already told us about the number on the neck block. Sorry. Someone more knowledgeable than me should chime in soon.

[Polkadude]

Thank you very much...I appreciate any information!
I love Kalamazoo Gibsons but have not had much experience with mandolins!

[Hendrik Ahrend]

It looks like a fine A2 from 1925. Interesting, according to Joe Spann, the neck block number should be either 11198 or 1198 A, no?

[Polkadude]

It is possible that there might be a very faint A after the 1198 code on the neck block. Other than the Style ___ on the label, which looks blank now, is there any visible clue whether this is an A2 or an A2Z?

[William Smith]

Id say its one of those "A2-" They are and aren't an A2Z, conundrum yes, but it has everything the A2Z's have except for the extra binding around the rosette, Those ones are marked A2- whether they forgot the Z I don't know but I've seen these for sale marked as A2Z's. Strange YES but that was Gibson back in the days, so many configurations within the same model even same year!
Very Nice mandolin even if I'm wrong? Case is original also.

[Loudloar]

Regarding the case; there is every reason to think it is original. It is not earlier than 1922, as those had a rivet in the middle of the diamond on the pocket lid. The handle has been replaced.

Steve

[Hendrik Ahrend]

More information:https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?83768-1923-A2-vs-A2z-subtle-differences

[rcc56]

I always find it amusing to watch folks make sense out of the labelling and specs of Gibson instruments. They simply weren't a very orderly company.

The way I understand it, the term "A-2z" was introduced as a catchy marketing ploy [A to Z]. So far as I know, the catalogs never simultaneously listed both models.

I think we can safely call any Sheraton brown instrument with a bound fingerboard and paddle head an A-2, and any natural or black instrument with double bound top, bound board, and snakehead peghead an A-2z. The rosettes can vary. What they wrote on the labels and in the ledgers might vary depending on who was doing the writing and how many cups of coffee they had that day.

[pheffernan]

I think we can safely call any Sheraton brown instrument with a bound fingerboard and paddle head an A-2, and any natural or black instrument with double bound top, bound board, and snakehead peghead an A-2z.

Tell that to a prospective buyer.

[Polkadude]

Since I am new to mandolins, I want to thank everyone for their comments and expertise!
I don't know that this will make any difference, but it appears that the Serial # is 81287.
If the hallmarks of an A2Z are "any natural or black instrument with double bound top, bound board, and snakehead peghead", this one would appear to qualify...
My understanding is that this instrument was tucked away for half a century, and to me it sounds like it wishes to make up for being ignored so long.
Polkadude

[mrmando]

Well, "any natural or black instrument with double bound top, bound board, and snakehead peghead" makes sense descriptively. But despite all the talk about "blacktop A2Zs," I've never come across one that actually had a Z on the label.

The FON is problematic. According to Spann, 11198A is a mandolin banjo and 1198A is a tenor banjo. 11198 (no A) would be from 1918 and that obviously doesn't fit. There are a few FONs from the end of 1923 that might work, 11980-11989. And most known A2Zs are from the latter part of 1923, so that's tempting. But the pickguard bracket and tuners on this instrument are not from 1923, and the serial number is from late 1926.

The last batch of A2Zs listed by Spann are from the very beginning of 1924. None listed for the rest of that year, or for 1925 or 1926.

The most logical explanation is that this instrument was stamped at the end of 1923, but is one of the many that hung around the shop for a couple of years, and wasn't finished and shipped until 1926. Given the color and the binding, perhaps it was originally meant to be an A2Z, but by '26 the A2Z rosettes and hardware were no longer in use. I sincerely doubt this label ever had a Z on it.

Does it make a difference? Not in terms of playing, but collectors will pay a premium of $2K or sometimes more for a bona fide A2Z, and from a persnickety point of view I don't think this one qualifies. But there is no reason it couldn't sound just as good.

[Polkadude]

Thank you very much!
This is the clearest image of the neck block that I can get.
All that is visible seems to be 1198...
Are you seeing anything on mine that might not be as it was when it was first purchased?170763

[rcc56]

I find it strange that buyers assign $2,000 to the presence of one letter on a label when the instrument is otherwise identical to one that is messing the letter.

But the vintage instrument market is what it is, and often doesn't make sense.

To the OP, as best as I can tell from pictures, the instrument appears to have its original parts and finish, except perhaps the bridge base looks a little heavy for the period; but it does seem to have a lot of age on it. A nice horizontal view of the bridge could clear up any doubts.

[Polkadude]

The bridge has PAT.MAR.30.'09 stamped on it, as does the pickguard.

[rcc56]

Then my guess is that it is probably original, though I can't say for sure without a good picture. At least one supplier is making a reproduction that has the same patent stamp.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

The bridge looks fine and original to me. Reproduction bridges don't look like originals at all.

[mrmando]

I think I can see the ghost of what might be a 3 after the 1198. That would be a late 1923 lot according to Spann. 11971 and 11991 are lot numbers from A2Zs recorded by Spann. So as I say, it's very tempting to think the actual number is 1198x and that this was at some point intended to become an A2Z.

If this had been finished and shipped soon after it was stamped, however, it would have different tuner plates, a different pickguard clamp and a different rosette. Here's the rosette from the A2Z I used to own (1923, SN 75651, FON 11949).
170775

[William Smith]

I don't know if we can go by tuner plates because I just seen from a collector a 23-24 can't remember the exact date plain A-1 black top snake head with original painted The Gibson script with the original engraved silver plated arrowhead Waverly tuners? Very Odd but original, Why would such tuners be on such a low end Gibson, I asked and he said for sure original and this guy knows Gibson's. with Gibson all was out the window?

[mrmando]

The serial number is more of a giveaway than the tuner plates. There's a gap of 2.5 years between the FON and the SN on this instrument. And the later you get into the snakehead era, the less consistently the snakeheads conform to any given set of specs.

[f5loar]

Snakes can be tricky. I'm seeing a 1923 A2Z that was shipped out in early 1927. Pickguard bracket looks replaced. Other stuff looks original. If it were mine, that's the story I would go by.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

The sound hole rosettes vary among the A2-Zs. So the mandolin at hand could well be one of those, especially since it has the inner black line in the body binding, which other A2s don't seem to have, except for #79869 and (possibly) others with similar markings. As for the Loar-style screw-in pick guard bracket, as far as I can see, other oval hole Gibsons around that time (of sale, 1925 that is - as indicated by the ser.-#) have the same feature. What makes you think of 1927, Tom?

[NickR]

Worm over cog tuners or have they been turned around?

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Worm over cog tuners or have they been turned around?

At some point in the 20s Waverlys changed to worm over, earlier on the oval-hole models than on the F5s.

[NickR]

"At some point in the 20s Waverlys changed to worm over, earlier on the oval-hole models than on the F5s."

I think that strengthens the suggestion that this mandolin was completed but shipped a few years later on. Here from the Mandolin Archive is detail regarding 82651- a snakehead. This mandolin also has worm over tuners which makes sense if it was finally completed andshipped in 1928 but not in 1925:

"1925 manufacture date (traditional estimates)
1928 shipment date, according to Spann's Guide to Gibson
Mandolin, Style A
Serial 82651 "

[Hendrik Ahrend]

"At some point in the 20s Waverlys changed to worm over, earlier on the oval-hole models than on the F5s."

I think that strengthens the suggestion that this mandolin was completed but shipped a few years later on. Here from the Mandolin Archive is detail regarding 82651- a snakehead. This mandolin also has worm over tuners which makes sense if it was finally completed and shipped in 1928 but not in 1925:

Absolutely. I had it wrong in post #24; of course we're talking about a 1927 shipment date.

[Polkadude]

See this mandolin in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlKEhB5CX5I

- - - Updated - - -

See this mandolin in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlKEhB5CX5I

[danb]

So A-model mandolins from 1922-1925 can be quite quirky about which catalog specs they match. A2-z was described on page 19 of Catalog "N" (image attached). This mandolin passes all the tests for an A2-Z for me- it's a blonde snakehead with back binding, a logo, and a black ring of binding added on the top. Note that the in-fill in the rosette is listed in the spec.. but you will often see them without this and clearly stamped A2-z as well.

Some get "A2-".. or reported as "A2=". How'd the "z" go missing? So far, we have no clear reason. We also don't really know why some stamped "A" have back binding.. or a silkscreened logo.. or other various combos (including the b/w bound tops but finished in black) that are seen.

I have never seen anything that made me feel a black-top snakehead was an "A2z", but I do believe that some dealers will err on the side of a higher valuation and describe a snakehead as a "Black A2z".

171380

Here's a list of 60 that I documented in the Mandolin Archive:

A2-z list (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?a2z)

[danb]

If the hallmarks of an A2Z are "any natural or black instrument with double bound top, bound board, and snakehead peghead", this one would appear to qualify...


I would remove "black" from that list, but you definitely have an A2-z!

Top binding is common to all but the Ajr
an inlaid "The Gibson" shows up on A1, A2, A2z, A4
Back binding is either a2, a2z, or A4
the black/white top binding is only on an A2-z or earlier A3 white-top model (discontinued as the a2z was introduced)

Variations:
- back binding appears on some labelled "A"
- silkscreen logo appears on some "A" models
- "a3 tops" (with the binding or rosette) appear on various other models
- there is at least one batch of blonde A4s complete with Fleur-de-lis inlay
- Some get flamed maple backs vs the more typical slab-cut birch
- tuners have 5 variations.. (wiggle end teens style, arrow end, arrow-end with silver plating and pearl buttons, square plates, square plates with pearl buttons)
- Pickguards will be 90% clamp style, a few outliers have the screw-in type implying a later ship date
- cases linings are typically light or dark green, and color fading is quite common in this range
- a4s can have a "Virzi tone producer" (I've only seen retro-fitted ones on other A models, though they do appear on F2 and F4)

[Polkadude]

Wow, thank you very much for the info...!
As a life-long Michigan resident, it's exciting to study these legendary instruments that were built right here in Kalamazoo.

[Polkadude]

This mandolin is now listed as an A2Z in the Mandolin Archive:
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/81287

[Polkadude]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvUWVvYMAPM&feature=youtu.be

[Polkadude]

https://www.elderly.com/catalog/product/view/id/148777/s/gibson-style-a-2z-mandolin-1925/

[Jim Garber]

I would remove "black" from that list, but you definitely have an A2-z!

Top binding is common to all but the Ajr
an inlaid "The Gibson" shows up on A1, A2, A2z, A4
Back binding is either a2, a2z, or A4
the black/white top binding is only on an A2-z or earlier A3 white-top model (discontinued as the a2z was introduced)

Variations:
- back binding appears on some labelled "A"
- silkscreen logo appears on some "A" models
- "a3 tops" (with the binding or rosette) appear on various other models
- there is at least one batch of blonde A4s complete with Fleur-de-lis inlay
- Some get flamed maple backs vs the more typical slab-cut birch
- tuners have 5 variations.. (wiggle end teens style, arrow end, arrow-end with silver plating and pearl buttons, square plates, square plates with pearl buttons)
- Pickguards will be 90% clamp style, a few outliers have the screw-in type implying a later ship date
- cases linings are typically light or dark green, and color fading is quite common in this range
- a4s can have a "Virzi tone producer" (I've only seen retro-fitted ones on other A models, though they do appear on F2 and F4)

Ok. How about more confusion. My trusty black A2 snakehead—that is how I refer to it was sold to me as an A2Z back in the 1980s. I believe it is similar (except for wear) as Andy Statman's. Specs are as follows:

-Inlaid "The Gibson"
-Back binding
-Hard to tell but I believe that the top binding might be outside—>inside as white—>black. In the light at least is seems like it is.
-Wide ivoroid band around rosette
-square plate tuners
-Pickguard is screw-in type
-Label says only A (no dash)

[pheffernan]

What about this one? https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/130628#130628

[Polkadude]

The 1925 Gibson A2Z snakehead mandolin, serial # 81287, that was the original subject of this thread is now for sale at Elderly Instruments:
https://www.elderly.com/catalog/product/view/id/148777/s/gibson-style-a-2z-mandolin-1925/