The First Loar F-5 I Ever Played

[Brian Wolfe]

The thread about the "Attic Find" Loar got me thinking about the first Loar F-5 I ever played. I recall that the first Loar I ever saw was at “We Buy” Guitars on West 48thStreet in NYC. My guess is it was the mid 70’s and at the time I was buying every tiple I could find. I would put them in different tuning and fingerpick them. I was also buying Les Paul Jr’s and 00-18 Martins.
Larry the owner of “We Buy” told me I was wasting my money on them and that I should sell them all and buy this mandolin he had in the back. It was a Flowerpot headstock F-5, OHSC, Strings, Receipt & Period Gibson Paper Goods. I had never seen one before and really didn’t have any idea what the big deal was beyond it was fancy Gibson and seemed cool. He offered it to me for $3,000. He said I should buy it and never sell it and it would be the best investment I would ever make. He always gave me great prices and taught me a lot about instrument dealing. I started bringing him guitar and mandolins when I was about 15 and he seemed to enjoy my efforts to learn.
I would tell my mom a bit of a lie and say I was going to New Haven to buy and sell instruments. I left out the part that I was getting on the train and going to Grand Central and walking to W48th St. I’ve played that day over in my head many times over the years and wonder how the course of my instrument dealing would have gone had I actually sold every instrument I had acquired to that point and paid the $3000 for it.

[William Smith]

Yep going prices back then, but that was a bit of the green back then for most anyone! Yep should've bought her! Prices have gone up and down on them, a bit down now compared to 10 or so years ago but they are the epitome of KOOL! They are the originals everything else is mostly based on.

[Glassweb]

Hi Brian... what a tale! But here's the next part in that saga... a dear old friend named Adam Kreiswirth wound up acquiring what I believe is that very mandolin by trading a number of instruments for it. It was (if this is actually the same F5) a Feb.18th with a Virzi that was in mint condition (no, really!) and had one of the most beautiful tones of all the Loar F5s I've played. Well, I eventually bought that F5 from Adam for $26K and, after tweaking the bridge, action etc... came to find that this mandolin was a sleeping giant. I played it at gigs in Seattle for many years and eventually sold it back to Adam to acquire a different F5. This Loar now resides in Europe and "Loard", I wish I had never let it go.
48th Street in NYC was still in its glory days back in the 70's... Manny's, Larry's We Buy, Eddie Bell's down the block and a number of other guitar and horn dealers. Alas, just like "The Street" (52nd St.) of great Jazz clubs 48th Street has forever changed... although I believe Rudy's is still there...

Dems wuz da dayz...

[Benski]

Cool story....Sad to say that Rudy's is gone, too, as is Matt Umanov's on Bleeker Street. Retrofret in Brooklyn is very much alive, however. Cheers.

[Jeff Mando]

Great story, Brian! Speaking only for myself, $3000 was an impossible sum of money for me to raise in the mid-70's. I'm sure my annual income was much less than that and I seemed to get along fine -- single, of course, $75 rent, $100 used car (Cadillac convertible, no less), tons of pawn shop and flea market Gibson and Fender guitars available for $250 or less, well, you get the idea -- what went wrong with the world, anyway?????? :confused:

[grassrootphilosopher]

...what I believe is that very mandolin ...It was ...a Feb.18th with a Virzi ...This Loar now resides in Europe ...

... in Amsterdam?

[Brian Wolfe]

Yes, this is the same mandolin. I was lucky to hit W48th Street at a great time.

[mandotool]

Great stories... and bring back a flood of memories of Music Row in the later 70's..
i worked at Eddie Bell's for a little while late 70's.., Learned the glamorous lifestyle of being a repairman's helper in a tiny dust covered unventilated loft w/ low ceilings in the the back of the shop..sanding out scratches and shooting lacquer w/ an airshaft window fan as the spray booth....i can almost smell it now.. :)
Remember turning the corner onto 48st for the first time back then ..seeing the whole city block of Music Row packed with every kind of instrument under the sun (mainly guitars) , all kinds of those long haired musician types spilling out of the stores...:)
For a teenager off the bus from Jersey..kinda like seeing a dirtier version of Emerald city in The Wizard of Oz.....but w/ 1970's Times Square mixed in..
i have a vague memory of seeing a Loar at WeBuyGuitars..but not clear on that..i do still have the Batwing i bought there.

Of course the real Mandolin Mecca at that time was MANDOLIN BROS. in Staten island...curated by Stan Jay. Not very impressive from the outside but was a cabinet of wonders inside..
Walls covered with all kind of mandolins...mostly Gibsons ..walls of A's and F-4's etc....pretty mind blowing..
Also had a couple of early Orville era blacktop 3-point "Artist" F's w/ Crescent Moon headstock's in display cases that i believed at the time were the Holy Gail itself...
or more accurately...The Ark of the Covenant..?
A couple decades later...played my first Loar F-5 there...took me that long to get the nerve to ask Stan...
Quite a character Stan Jay...he is missed..

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Yes, this is the same mandolin.

Which would make it #75687. Interesting that the owner offered the Loar for sale a while ago, but decided to hang on to his post-Loar Fern.
Sound clips here: http://n-a-g.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=260:gibson-lloyd-loar-f5-mandolin-1924-checked-and-played-by-oliver-waitze&catid=92&Itemid=185

[dan in va]

It was Steve Smith's in the mid 1980's when he lived in Charlottesville. Then a couple of years ago a fine sounding Fern w/Virzi that belongs to a gracious dealer of vintage stringed instruments in Richmond. i would like to play the first one again now that my ear has gotten a little bit of lower school education.

[j. condino]

48th street NYC and "We Buy" back in the day was the coolest place on the planet to be an old guitar nerd. After you went to all of those shops and then took the ferry to Mandolin Brothers, on a good day you could head over to Jimmy D'Aquisto's shop and top off a great afternoon!

[MontanaMatt]

The first Loar I tried was at Greg Boyd's about ten years ago ...it was approximately the same price as my house...it resold for double a few years later. I should have leveraged my house! It was one serial number of from Bill's.

[Glassweb]

... in Amsterdam?

as a matter of fact yes! that's the one...

[Glassweb]

Which would make it #75687. Interesting that the owner offered the Loar for sale a while ago, but decided to hang on to his post-Loar Fern.
Sound clips here: http://n-a-g.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=260:gibson-lloyd-loar-f5-mandolin-1924-checked-and-played-by-oliver-waitze&catid=92&Itemid=185

yes, that is definitely the mandolin Adam got from Larry at We Buy and I later acquired from Adam. What a tone on that thing... great playing! I'm not sure, but I don't think any images of this ever made it onto The F5 Journal/Archives.

[paul dirac]

Of course the real Mandolin Mecca at that time was MANDOLIN BROS. in Staten island...curated by Stan Jay. Not very impressive from the outside but was a cabinet of wonders inside..
Walls covered with all kind of mandolins...mostly Gibsons ..walls of A's and F-4's etc....pretty mind blowing..
Also had a couple of early Orville era blacktop 3-point "Artist" F's w/ Crescent Moon headstock's in display cases that i believed at the time were the Holy Gail itself...
or more accurately...The Ark of the Covenant..?
A couple decades later...played my first Loar F-5 there...took me that long to get the nerve to ask Stan...
Quite a character Stan Jay...he is missed..

Stan took pity on me one slow day in the store: "Hey, kid, wanna see somethin'?" He pulled out of the closet in the "expensive" room one of Wes Montgomery's 2 main L-5s. Didn't let me touch it, though..

[goose 2]

I was at Byron Berline’s Shop in the late ‘90s to have some fret work done on my mandolin and he opened the vault and let me pick on his Loar. It was early in my mandolin playing days and I remember how the notes just popped out of it like a hammer hitting a railroad tie. A few years ago I took a lesson/jam session with Hershel Sizemore and he handed me his Loar to play for the session. At first I thought it was a pretty good mandolin but after spending a good hour or more with it I learned how to hit the notes and get more and more out of it. By quitting time I thought it was the most exquisite instrument imaginable. That was an unforgettable day for me. I have owned the best of the modern masterpieces but I believe there really is something that distinguishes a good Loar from all the others.

[jimmy powells]

As someone who has had 45 years of 'impulse buys' and literally hundreds of mandolins and acoustic guitars, I love stories about 'the one that got away' or similar stories such as how Ricky Skaggs got his Loar. I've had great fun buying and selling as a hobby with lots of money losses as well as a few gains. Always on the lookout for old Gibson F4s etc. A book of these stories would make a great read.

I've still to find that 'pot of gold' but you never know what is coming along.. Saw a very rare guitar the other day. The guy has a Martin Mike Longworth D45 in totally MINT condition but interestingly, he has number 45 of 91 made. Apparently Chris Martin said it should not have left the States. It's in Tee-side, UK.

[sunburst]

When I had built a handful of mandolins back in the late '80s, early '90s, David McLaughlin played a couple of them and liked them so he stopped by the shop with his Loar. Not only did he go over the details of it (he was very familiar with the design details!) and let me play and examine it, he left it with me to study for a week or so! I will always be grateful for that graciousness.

[soliver]

I visited Gruhn Guitars on Saturday and was given the opportunity (I just asked) to meet George Gruhn and play 3 of the 7 Loar Signed F5's he had... very very cool. He told me a lot about how and why Mr Loar designed them how he did and then how Bill Monroe was able to buy his and what he figured out he could do with it. What a neat and quirky guy he is!... a really enjoyable time indeed!

All 3 of the Loars I played were outstanding and all were very very different. One just strait F5, one that had been retoppped in the 30's by Gibson's and one with a Virzi... what a neat experience. He kept saying stuff like "Chris Thile liked this one better than that one and I disagreed with him... etc etc." what a fun and memorable 45 min that was!

[Cary Fagan]

About 15 years ago Phil Zimmerman let a few of us at a mandolin camp try his. i got it for a bout 5 minutes. I believe it's a rather beat-up one, if I remember right. It felt wonderful, had a great neck, I thought, but for me at the time seemed hard to play. Probably had Monroe-style 'manly' action. I didn't know enough or have it long enough to make any judgements but at least I can say I played one.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

The one and only Loar I've ever played is John Reischman's Loar on a couple occasions. The first time was in his living room, and I got to play it for an hour or so. He played my humble KM-1000 for that hour. The second time was after a show of his when he played with Harry Manx. He handed the loar to me so he could sign autographs. I happily obliged and then had a nice visit with him again.

[MikeZito]

I have played two Loar's over the years. The first one was an F-2 or F-4, that was for sale at a local music store. It was in terrible shape, played like a beast and sounded awful. Some time later I got to briefly play Joe Val's F-5 (after Joe had passed away and it was sold to a Connecticut musician) - and it was wonderful. I handed it back rather quickly because I was afraid of accidentally doing some damage, and my skill level was WAY below such a classic instrument. I was playing a Rigel R-100 at the time, so I didn't feel bad about having to go back to my own mandolin, since it was no slouch either.

[AlanN]

I have played two Loar's over the years. The first one was an F-2 or F-4, that was for sale at a local music store.

Uh...no.

[MikeZito]

This was back in my very early days as a mandolin player - I knew OF Loar mandolins, but didn't really know anything ABOUT them.

I may be crazy, and there is no way that I can go back in time, but I SWEAR that the mandolin that I played was an oval; (I remember being disappointed when I saw the mandolin, because I was not an oval hole guy at the time, and I was looking for an f-hole mandolin) and I also distinctly remember the owner of the store specifically showing me the the label inside, to point out that I was indeed signed by Loar.

Perhaps it was an F-5 that foolishly got badly re-topped in the 1930's (which could explain why it was such a beast)? Who knows.

Poo-poo it all you want, but that's my story I'm sticking to it . . .

[HoGo]

I'm not aware of any Loar signed oval mandolins... Perhaps experts know more.
The Joe Val Loar was the first one I played as well. It had fresh set of Elixir installed just like my personal mandolin at the time so we played them for hour or more. My ideal were prety much crushed as I fount they were hard to tell apart with eyes closed and my mandolin was even a bit louder... and I've always thought of my mandolin as not Loar sounding before that.

[twilson]

The first one I played was Bobby Clark’s, probably about 1978. Yeah, I’m old. We were playing on the same show. I was playing an F4 at the time and broke a string a few minutes before I was supposed to go on. Bobby generously offered to let me play his Loar on stage. I was petrified, too scared to take him up on it. A really good guy.

I’ve told this story on the forum before. I played Bill Monroe’s in probably 1988. The band I was in opened for Bill at the Old Town School in Chicago. The school gave Bill a plaque in the middle of a set. He handed his mando to the banjo picker while he accepted the award and got his picture taken. When he went to get his mando back, the banjo picker’s ring got caught and broke both E strings. So I gave Bill my Nugget, took his to the green room and changed his broken strings. While I was at at it, I kicked off Muleskinner Blues a couple of times. I had to.

When I gave him his mando back and got mine, he said something like ‘That’s a good mandolin boy’.

Tim Wilson

[MikeZito]

Nice story Tim.

I have heard that over the years Bill was not adverse to swapping mandolins with people and letting them play play his Loar.

Very cool.

[AlanN]

The first one I played was Bobby Clark’s, probably about 1978

I thought Bobby had a '29 fern back then (eventually sold to Vince Gill). Maybe he had a Loar, too.


A really good guy.

Yes, he is.



When I gave him his mando back and got mine, he said something like ‘That’s a good mandolin boy’.

And then, did he say 'Would you work for me for $10 a week, boy?" :)):)):))

cool story.

[twilson]

AlanN, you may be right about Bobby’s mando. That was 40 years ago..........

How did you know Bill asked me to work for him? I told him ‘yeah, I’l work for $10 a week, and I’ll give you $5 back.’:grin:

[AlanN]

How did you know Bill asked me to work for him? I told him ‘yeah, I’l work for $10 a week, and I’ll give you $5 back.’:grin:

ha!

Here's the fern. I also played it once. Terrific mandolin. And One-Legged Gypsy is a terrific record.

[Bernie Daniel]

This was back in my very early days as a mandolin player - I knew OF Loar mandolins, but didn't really know anything ABOUT them.

I may be crazy, and there is no way that I can go back in time, but I SWEAR that the mandolin that I played was an oval; (I remember being disappointed when I saw the mandolin, because I was not an oval hole guy at the time, and I was looking for an f-hole mandolin) and I also distinctly remember the owner of the store specifically showing me the the label inside, to point out that I was indeed signed by Loar.

Perhaps it was an F-5 that foolishly got badly re-topped in the 1930's (which could explain why it was such a beast)? Who knows.

Poo-poo it all you want, but that's my story I'm sticking to it . . .

I'm not going to "pop-poo" anyone but my guess is that someone (not at Kalamazoo) put a fake label in that F-4 for some reason. There were of course F-2s and F-4s built during the years that Loar worked for Gibson but I have never heard of him signing any of them. They were not his "babies".

He signed only the Master Model series instruments. F-5, H-5, K-5 and L-5.

Loar is credited with the Mastertone banjos too and afaik he never signed those either? Or did he?

[rcc56]

The Mastertone line was not catalogued until 1925. Loar had been released from his job by then.

The new Mastertone line featured a multi-hole tone hoop that sat on spring-loaded ball bearings, in conjunction with a tube and plate flange, removeable resonator secured with thumbscrews, 11" rim, and fiddle shaped peghead. The design was subsequently changed several times before banjos were discontinued during WWII.

The style 5 banjo was indeed developed during Loar's tenure, but as far as I know, while these early style 5's had a multi-hole tone hoop that sat on stationary ball bearings, this system was simpler than the early spring-loaded ball bearing tone ring system on an 11" rim that was the first to be dubbed "Mastertone."

The "pre-Mastertone" banjos also lacked the tube and plate flange and removeable resonator. Most of the rims on these early banjos were 10 1/2". Some were also made with 12" or 14" rims, but they are not very common.

Although Joe Spann states that Loar was involved in the design of the Mastertone line, I have not heard of a pre-1925 banjo with a Mastertone features or label. I suppose there could be a couple of prototypes or sales samples floating around.

Mr. Spann is welcome to correct me if I am wrong about this.

The subject of Gibson banjo design makes the mandolins look simple by comparison.

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The only instruments with a Master Model label were the F-5, H-5, K-5, L-5, and the Style TL tenor lute. I have not heard of a style 5 banjo with a Master Model label, nor have I heard of a Style 5 banjo or a TL with a Loar signature label.

If a banjo or any other instrument besides an F-5, H-5, K-5, L-5, or the "Griffith" A-5 were to appear with a Loar signature label, it would be subject to much controversy. To authenticate such an instrument beyond doubt would require close scrutiny and agreement by several of the most respected experts in the field.

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John Bernunzio told me that he once owned an F-2 which had a truss rod cover engraved with the initials "L.L.", but he sold the instrument many years ago. It had neither a signature label nor a Master Model label. He said that the truss rod cover was installed with the plain side out, and he did not realized that the initials were there until after he had sold it. The new owner discovered the initials when he had the rod adjusted.