new to mandolin,could use help with id

[athensduck]

Hello all,My name is Don and thank you for letting me join.
Me and my lady decided to take up mandolin.So we are shopping around for one.
Can anyone help me id a mando I may buy?
I know next to nothing about them.
I am looking at a bowl back but this is the one my girl wants and our anniversary is next week.
So any help would be great..Thanks,Don

[Jim Parriott]

There are many experts here who can identify your mandolin. But, in regarding which type of mandolin you should buy, they will all ask one question first: what kind of music do you want to play?

[athensduck]

There are many experts here who can identify your mandolin. But, in regarding which type of mandolin you should buy, they will all ask one question first: what kind of music do you want to play?


We know what we want to play,folk,romany (sp),celtic,a bit of grass.I am just a bit ocd when it comes to knowing about thing's.
Do not even have one yet and am already looking into how to do set up and repairs.

[NickR]

If you want a bowl back, then you will need to limit your list of musical styles you wish to indulge in- mandolins have evolved and been chosen to cover a number of musical types. The mandolin you have in mind appears to be a good quality instrument but I cannot identify it. It appears to be in a high quality Geib & Schaefer case- circa 1920s. This suggests- assuming the two have been together for a long time that the mandolin is a good one- it certainly looks good but as to its current level of playability, then as a novice, you have to rely on others to advise you. I began playing on one of my great grandfather's bowl backs from the 1890s. Now, it is a perfectly reasonable instrument, but when I pick it up to play, I wonder how I ever got started! My father learned to play another of his mandolins- a Vinaccia, that I have just had mended. My guitar/mandolin man who is as good as it gets after 55 years tells me it is a great instrument but it is not easy to play- in fact it's a challenge that I am not up to meeting! I repaired it in memory of my old Dad. You may wish to buy a vintage instrument as you love it- and it may be an investment. You might also wish to buy a relatively inexpensive new mandolin that is relatively easy to play- receiving advice from somebody trustworthy you know or in a music shop that specialises in mandolins- or is oriented towards them- as opposed to solid body electric guitars!

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't know how long the mandolin and case have been together. The case doesn't really form fit to the mandolin. Look at the added padding. The mandolin will be hard to ID as well. It doesn't look like any one builder but it does look like it's decent. The case almost looks like a mandolin banjo case.

The mandolin is reminiscent of some later built Chicago instruments. Let me see if I can find those threads. Note: nowhere near what I was thinking about.

[EdHanrahan]

Some thoughts that should help:

1 - Is there a label or other markings on the inside, usually on the back and/or the neck block? Even just partial wording, a print font, or some format of serial #, that may seem like gibberish to most of us (think "...cia Frat..."), can tell the more expert folks exactly what you're looking at.
2 - Photo of the back of the headstock: Details of tuning mechanism can help indicate when & where it was built.
3 - YOUR location! Adding that to your user profile often prompts folks to suggest nearby luthiers or other helpful individuals, but not if they don't know where you are.

BTW athensduck: Google indicates a popular duck pond in Athens, AL... close?

[MikeEdgerton]

Also, can you post a picture of the back of the headstock so we can see the tuning machines?

[fatt-dad]

consider the Big Muddy in the classifieds right now! Not mine, but they are the real deal, simple and affordable.

Enjoy the journey!

f-d

[DavidKOS]

If you want a bowl back, then you will need to limit your list of musical styles you wish to indulge in

.... I began playing on one of my great grandfather's bowl backs from the 1890s. Now, it is a perfectly reasonable instrument, but when I pick it up to play, I wonder how I ever got started!

I'd take that Vinacchia anyday.

You can play ANY music on a bowlback.

You can play any music on any mandolin.

Some people are convinced that you have to have a certain mandolin...the one you have would be a fine overall instruments.

Don't believe them.

[Seter]

Serviceable and very playable bowlbacks can be had quite cheaply, I got mine for around $90. I'd make sure the neck/top/back were all in good shape though. Odds are before long you'll have a bowlback, archtop, flattop, and a mandocello though.

[NickR]

I must admit to being baffled by this mandolin- it has that A style body and Vega made some a little like that but then there is that headstock shape. I do think it looks like a well crafted instrument and it could be ideal for a number of styles. I think Mike is probably right that the case is not original to the mandolin. I just made the point that certain musical forms have become known for their totemic instruments- the F5 and bluegrass being a classic example. I will not be taking my 1923 A2 snakehead to the bluegrass jam tonight as I want to show off my new $60 1930s mystery mandolin that I think is a Harmony made instrument. It is loud and bright and it it is fun to play but it is no in the same league as the A2. Personally, I do not see a bowl back as being an ubiquitous mandolin for all genres but if one works for others on that basis, then more power to their elbows and wrists. The Vinaccia does intonate well but many old Naples mandolins do not and the tuners do not really like holding strings to pitch for very long.

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually I found a similar Vega but there were still too many differences. It might explain the case though :)

[NickR]

Mike, I have been holding my A2 case in front of the photo and I think that is what the case was made for originally. However, that is not to say it might not have been made for a Vega mandolin. I have seen the odd 1920s Washburn ( made by Regal?) with some similarities but again not enough and nothing comparable to that headstock. Somebody must know who made it and I would be very surprised if it was made outside of the USA. Seeing the tuners might shed some light on the era and where it was made. However, I have seen a 1930s Clifford Essex guitar made in London- possibly by Marco Roccia that had Grover "TOP" tuner strips on it and they were original to the guitar. US made tuners could be sourced and used although most European makers bought tuners from Markneukirchen in Germany although, as we know, Selmer of Paris used a French maker.

[allenhopkins]

Looks something like a Washburn Style C, but headstock's differently shaped, pickguard different as well.

I'd buy it, assuming price is reasonable; construction and materials are attractive, and you can play the types of music you mention on an oval-hole, flat-back instrument, as well as a bowl-back.

[nmiller]

That's a new one to me. It's not from any of the big builders - Vega, Lyon & Healy, Regal, Washburn, Stromberg Voisinet, Weymann, and the Larsons can all be ruled out. It's probably from a small workshop; I'm getting a general east-coast vibe from the headstock, pickguard, and the maple back, but that's just a hunch and wouldn't narrow it down very much.

[MikeEdgerton]

We've also seen a few nice mandolins made in Canada with that Waverly tailpiece. The tuners might give us a chance at a date.

[MikeEdgerton]

I went out and looked at Favilla's as well. Whoever built it was good at what they did.

[Jim Garber]

So far this Galiano/Ciani mandolin (https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?65850-A-Galiano-Raphael-Chiani-Mandolin) in this thread bears some resemblance to the OP's posting. Similar shape but mahogany back and sides and different headstock and pickguard shape.

[MikeEdgerton]

Close, still some major differences. Oscar Schmidt?

[NickR]

In the early to mid-1930s or thereabouts OS adopted the "open book" headstock shape on guitars and mandolins but I would be very surprised if it was made by Oscar Schmidt. It really is an enigma and ideally more photos might help uncover more clues- it is a real mystery instrument. I think Galiano instruments were made by a few makers and OS was one of them. Let's hope this is identified before our heads explode thinking of possible makers!

[Jess L.]

Is that an open seam or a split in the lower/mid back seam? Strange dark line there. Can't quite tell from the original pic.

Here are two zoomed-in views of that pic, maybe someone can give a better idea of the condition of that seam. You'll need to click the pic probably several times altogether to make it maximum size.

1. Lightened and zoomed-in:

170254


2. Original color, zoomed-in:

170255


I do *not* think the suspicious dark line is the result of typical low-res jpg artifacts, those look different (such as around the edges of the mandolin in these pics).

[G7MOF]

It looks to have a quality neck though.

[tonydxn]

I'm wondering how much the seller wants for it . . .

The bridge looks a lot like the ones Weymann put on their instruments, but the rest of it doesn't look much like theirs.

[athensduck]

Ok,been a busy week,sorry. The seller say's he was told it is a 1921 vega or washburn.Has had professional repairs done to it..It is in a 1920s Gibson A jr case.He want's right at $600 for it.Though I am hopefully going to be trading for it.He is out of town and is supposed to meet me the day before my anniversary (it is for my girl).Thank you guys for all the help so far.

[athensduck]

170308 here is the back of headstock..

[athensduck]

Also,thank you all for all the help and brain power.

[MikeEdgerton]

Still no way to ID the builder but it was most likely built in the 1920's early 30's at best, assuming the tuners are original.

[MikeEdgerton]

Ok,been a busy week,sorry. The seller say's he was told it is a 1921 vega or washburn.Has had professional repairs done to it..It is in a 1920s Gibson A jr case.He want's right at $600 for it.Though I am hopefully going to be trading for it.He is out of town and is supposed to meet me the day before my anniversary (it is for my girl).Thank you guys for all the help so far.

I think he may be wrong about the case. The Vega connection is probably more likely than the Washburn.

[NickR]

I believe Vega mandolins have a serial number impressed in the headstock top edge. If this mandolin was made by Vega in 1921 then it would have a number somewhere around 40,000.

With regard to the case. I have just run into an ad for the very same type of case- with identical lining and the seller wants $275 for it. This may be a bit high but it is in good condition- as appears to be the case with this mystery mandolin. Obviously, when considering the asking price of $600, the case is worth quite a bit. Here is some of the blurb with that other G & S mandolin case sale:

1920's
GIBSON
ORIGINAL
HARD SHELL CASE
A-STYLE MANDOLIN
for sale
Great, useable condition. Diamond pocket cover. Original 1920’s Gibson A Style Mandolin Hard Case.
Their best case at the time. Green lining.

This case housed a 1924 “A” Style "Snake-Head" mandolin and no reason to believe it wasn’t originally and optionally purchased at the same time.

[athensduck]

Ok..I got the mandolin..It does not have an impressed number..It used to have a makers label inside but it apparently was off when he got it. It is 24 1/2" long overall,9 1/2" wide,3 " deep,the fretboard is 10" from nut to the end of fretboard,and the nut width is 1 1/4"

[mrmando]

Some similarities to a Martin Style 15 carved mandolin. The Galiano/Ciani guess is probably best; if not that specific shop it's probably one of the other Italian builders from New York. Probably built in the 1930s. Martin-type body, Gibson-type headstock; fancy inlay and pickguard; it's kind of a mishmash/greatest-hits instrument built by an individual luthier.

[brunello97]

I have a Galliano / Ciani very similar to the one Jim posted. (Or maybe it is that mandolin....) The body shape is quite like to the one in question, but the neck profile and joint is not all. Could be from someone free-lancing out of the Schmidt / Ciani posse.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

I have a Galliano / Ciani very similar to the one Jim posted. (Or maybe it is that mandolin....) The body shape is quite like to the one in question, but the neck profile and joint is not all. Could be from someone free-lancing out of the Schmidt / Ciani posse.

Mick

Mick: Can you post photos of yours. I grabbed the photos from the older thread I linked to above. Did you buy the mandolin from that poster?

[brunello97]

Mick: Can you post photos of yours. I grabbed the photos from the older thread I linked to above. Did you buy the mandolin from that poster?

Yes, Jim, I think that is the one I bought. I recognize the case in the photo, too. I'll dig it out and get some photos up.

Mick

[Baseman717]

In the early to mid-1930s or thereabouts OS adopted the "open book" headstock shape on guitars and mandolins but I would be very surprised if it was made by Oscar Schmidt. It really is an enigma and ideally more photos might help uncover more clues- it is a real to mystery instrument. think Galiano instruments were made by a few makers and OS was one of them. Let's hope this is identified before our heads explode thinking of possible makers!

Greetings to my fellow Mandolinians. I’m new to this site. In fact this is my first post. But when I saw the photo, I just had to reply. I have what looks to me to be the same mandolin, in the same case. So before anybody’s head explodes. I will tell you that inside the sound hole of my mandolin, it has a label that says “A. Galliano” and under that it has a symbol and says “Raphael Ciani”. Mandolini Echitarre Garentite.
Like I said, this is my first post, so I haven’t figured out how to post a photo yet.
From the info that I have gathered, A. Galliano was a distributor of sorts and the mandolin was made by Raphael Ciani.
Raphael Ciani was the uncle of John D’Angelico, the guitar maker extraordinaire. The story I heard is that John worked under the tutelage of Raphael in his shop when he was a youth and I’m gonna believe (true or not) that my mandolin passed through his hands.
Your mandolin, Don, although almost identical to mine, has a few differences. Your headstock is inlaid, and mine is plain. You have no serial number on the back of yours, and mine does. (Believe it or not it’s 007). My fretboard has abalone dots, 3 across with the middle dot larger than the other 2. My back and sides seem to be unfinished, with a lacquer finish on the spruce top. The pick guard is the same as is the bridge and the tuners in the same shaped headstock. I also have a Gibson A style and this mandolin had very similar tone.

That’s all I know at this time. If anyone knows the value of these mandolins, please let me know in a post.
Thanks
Glenn

[Jim Garber]

Welcome, Glenn. Just a few comments since I am on my phone.

i think D’Angelico was fairly young when working for his uncle and probably swept the floors and was sent out on espresso runs. I suppose he may have handled some minor luthier tasks.

You say back and sides are unfinished? That is very strange. Maybe someone stripped the finish off?

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