Gibson Mandocello [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

rcc56

Jul-07-2018, 3:44pm

I don't believe in taking advantage of people. If it is indeed a K-4 and it's more or less in one piece, it's worth a lot more than $800 even if it has been painted green. The appraiser was either not competent, or had his own agenda.

It is not up to me to look into another man's conscience, but I would not sleep well paying only 10 to 20% of an instrument's retail market value. Reputable dealers who have to make a profit would give him considerably more.

These instruments are worth thousands, not hundreds. Gruhn had one earlier this year that was listed at $8500, if I remember correctly. It has since sold. Is that a good enough reference for you?

slimt

Jul-07-2018, 4:05pm

just spoke to him. Said i can have it for $600. anyone know where i can look up values and stuff

Post a picture.. but to be honest if its a True Gibson.. dont hesitate.. its 600.. money back guaranteed.

But I make sure to be fair with folks.. they will return in time, in kind..

jim1966

Jul-07-2018, 4:05pm

i can appreciate that but i didn't offer $600 and I don't know anything about them myself. He made the offer to me and i accepted.

slimt

Jul-07-2018, 4:07pm

i can appreciate that but i didn't offer $600 and I don't know anything about them myself. He made the offer to me and i accepted.

Get it..

F-2 Dave

Jul-07-2018, 4:27pm

I don't believe in taking unfair advantage of others either but you are willing to meet HIS price. If your conscience is troubled, you can tell the seller that the mandocello is worth more than what he's asking. He can do his own homework. He may just see that you're interested and wants you to have it. It's not always about money.

mrmando

Jul-07-2018, 5:44pm

I'll take it for $700! Or more.

slimt

Jul-07-2018, 5:48pm

greeenhorn

Jul-07-2018, 6:21pm

Another question: Would it be possible to use only four strings on the mandocello (every string only once not twice)
like on a tenor guitar? Or would this make the MC distort?

mrmando

Jul-07-2018, 7:01pm

Another question: Would it be possible to use only four strings on the mandocello (every string only once not twice)
like on a tenor guitar? Or would this make the MC distort?
You can always try it. I doubt there would be any "distortion" as such, but it might be pretty quiet, due to lacking enough string tension to "drive" the top properly.

Bernie Daniel

Jul-07-2018, 7:45pm

just spoke to him. Said i can have it for $600. anyone know where i can look up values and stuff

But before that offer (post#6) you had already been told it might be worth much more than $600 (post #2)? Am I confused on the timeline?

allenhopkins

Jul-07-2018, 8:41pm

OK: Mandolin Brothers fairly recently listed an excellent-condition K-4, (http://mandoweb.com/Instruments/Gibson-K4-Mandocello-1920/3066) with original case, for $7,500. The late Stan J of Mandolin Brothers was not known as a discount dealer, so that would have been, at the time, a collectors' market price.

If you Google, you can find K-4's with ridiculous asking prices -- $18,000, $22,500 -- sky's the limit. But be aware that this is a rare bird; Gibson mandocelli aren't that common, and the K-4 was the top of their mandolin-bodied 'cello line, only surpassed by the guitar-bodied K-5.

Any price below $5K, for a K-4 (with pickguard and case!), is a bargain, IMHO. Any price below $1K is a complete steal. The $600 price your seller's asking, may be realistic to him/her, based on considering it an old, unplayed instrument. But you've enough curiosity, and have received enough information, to know that you're probably paying 10% of its value on the current market, or less.

We all don't have a few thousand dollars lying around, with which to buy instruments. So saying, "You oughta pay the seller several times the asking price," is a luxury that some of us could afford, but others couldn't. And the seller may well be satisfied with $600 for an instrument that was sitting in a closet for decades, doing him/her little good at all.

But you should be aware that, if that seller contacted a vintage instrument dealer, he/she could probably get five times what you're paying for the K-4, as a wholesale level price. How this information affects your decision as to what you pay -- well, that's up to you. If I felt that the seller knew all the facts, and was still willing to sell at an unrealistically low price, I'd make the deal. But I'm guessing your seller doesn't know all the facts.

So: take advantage of the situation, or not? Your call.

rcc56

Jul-07-2018, 9:02pm

I'm reluctant to respond further. but I will by asking a couple of questions.

Did you inform the seller that the instrument was worth much more than he was asking?

If you were to sell the instrument, would you be willing to split the profit with him?

How would you feel if you were the seller who had been given an inaccurate appraisal and only found out the instrument's true market value after you had sold it?

This thread and some of the responses disappoint me, and makes me quite sad.

Hendrik Ahrend

Jul-08-2018, 4:07am

multidon

Jul-08-2018, 5:34am

I understand that you should not take advantage of people because you have knowledge about something and they don’t. But, that being said, doesn’t it happen all the time? I am a big fan of “Antiques Roadshow”. You see that scenario all the time. “Where did you acquire this lovely end table?” “Oh, there was this little off the beaten path antique dealer while we were on vacation”. “May I ask what you payed for it?” “Oh, I think it was around 100 dollars.” “Well, I am happy to be able to tell you this table was crafted in the workshop of the famous American designer John Blah blah, and if this piece were to come up for auction. I conservatively estimate it would sell for at least 50,000 dollars!” Camera pans to stunned looking owner. “Well. I suspected it was something special!”

Now, in that scenario, does the person sell it, go back to that little shop, and split the profits with that shop owner? Nah!

This is why I am reluctant to sell anything that I might see on Antiques Roadshow for 20 times what I sold it for. It’s a recurrent nightmare of mine.

In this case we have a seller who seems clueless about the true value. And a buyer almost as clueless. Only he’s not clueless now. So where does it go from here? Let your conscience be your guide.

High level instrument collectors are always full of stories about how they found a closet queen 50’s Strat at a yard sale for a song, or some such. And they are always exceedingly pleased with themselves. Wasn’t there a thread here some time ago about a Loar F-5 someone found at a yard sale and paid pennies in the dollar for it? I have a pretty clear recollection of that discussion and that there were questions of the morality in that case too.

It’s hard to know what’s in people’s hearts. If the buyer is as clueless as the seller about the true value, is that somehow different from one party or the other having inside knowledge? And where is the line between a bargain and effectively robbing someone blind?

goaty76

Jul-08-2018, 5:41am

I have no problems with the buyer or seller. Now the appraiser on the other hand....

Phil

jim1966

Jul-08-2018, 2:27pm

multidon

Jul-08-2018, 3:31pm

Wow. Just...Wow.

If we take what you say at face value, you had no idea what it’s worth in your original post but by post #2 you had am approximate value of $8000 and by post #17 you had a recently sold example which sold for $7500. You asked where one could look up “values and stuff”. There are several reference books where you could do just that, but the truest measure of value is finding recently sold examples. That shows exactly what people are willing to pay. This is the way value is determined everywhere anymore. So the $7500 was a really good indicator. Yet you are still willing to accept his $600 offer. And in this latest post of yours, with all the indignation and rationalization, I noticed that you never answered any of the questions in post #18, particularly “Did you inform the seller that the instrument was worth much more than he was asking?”. We all waited for an answer, but all we can hear is the crickets. Surprising I think from a person of “pretty high integrity”.

I don’t pretend to be “high and mighty” nor do I put myself up as an example of “high moral standards” . All I do is try my best to do the best I can in this world of woe. It is too bad you feel sorry about coming here for advice, but that does happen sometimes when people ask a question and don’t get the response they want to get. You wanted everyone to tell you it’s ok to buy a $7500 instrument for $600 without the seller knowing the true value. And, sadly, a couple of of our fellow members chimed in and said they would do the same thing. So you did get the validation you were looking for, in a way.

The important thing is of course that both the seller and buyer walk away happy. If that is the case, well, best of luck to you both. I don’t know what you mean by “I will remember this in the future”, but I will say that one thing I learned a long time ago is as follows: don’t ask the question if you don’t want to hear the answer.

Dacraw54

Jul-08-2018, 3:42pm

Just like BM tried to talk the barber into accepting more for his Loar... and the late JV also got one for a bargain. There are lots of stories of swap-meet finds, estate clearances, garage sales... all you gotta do is meet the asking price, and sometimes you buy a pig-in-a-poke... course there are always begrudgers that wish it was them that found it...

slimt

Jul-08-2018, 4:42pm

I dont think I could live with myself knowing I got the best of someone..

if it was a pawn shop( Sure) .. I wouldnt have a problem screwing them over as they do it everyday all day long to others..

How ever.. this thread is kind of useless with out pictures anyways..

mrmando

Jul-08-2018, 6:08pm

The amount Monroe paid for his Loar wasn't out of line with what a used Loar cost in 1943. Obviously Monroe couldn't turn Loars into priceless collectible holy grails before he owned one.

Antique dealers and pawnbrokers sell old items for a living. They have an opportunity to do their research before they put an instrument out on the floor with a price tag on it. Getting a "steal" in one of those places is not remotely the same as abusing the trust of someone you know in order to profit from it.

I did pretty well on a mandocello flip recently, but I bought it in an estate auction in a fair bidding process. Anyone who wanted to could have outbid me.

The OP is evidently a beginning mandolin player from Canton, OH, whose other posts in this forum concern the comparative merits of Gold Tones and Kentuckys, et al. Obviously he's not qualified to help his "friend" get a fair price for a vintage Gibson K4, nor does he seem interested in doing so. But once in a while, a feller gets lucky. If he does realize a profit here, I hope he uses it to do some good in the world.

I do feel sorry for the poor chump who inherited the K4. He's been steered wrong twice.

Dacraw54

Jul-08-2018, 6:44pm

Yeah, you gotta figure the Appraiser was fishin’. Still, without pics as to looks, condition, authenticity, this is all pretty moot.

RustyPickup

Jul-08-2018, 9:13pm

Just in passing, I think the price from the Mandolin Brothers post was an older one ... maybe 1985? If you have been watching K-4's coming up in the Cafe the past couple of years, they have been going for $10K plus ... and often a lot higher. Of course, everything depends on condition, year, etc. Nonetheless, $600 or $700 would be worth it just for the extras (pick guard, tuners, case?) even if the body was in pieces; which is why so many people reading this thread are salivating. Don't mean to moralize, but the owner really should be informed of what he might have. I faced this situation buying my first Gibson (a 1915 A-1). A guy was selling his deceased grandfather's instrument, and offered me a very low price. My immediate reaction was, "Well, if you throw in the strap, I'll take it." But then I got to thinking, this guy knew nothing about mandolins ... and was I doing the right thing? So I told him I was sure he would get substantially more if he sent it to, say, Mandolin Brothers (speaking of which!). We talked about the permutations (consignments, appraisals, the waiting, shipping it there, etc.) and he decided he would rather sell it right now to me. I told him what I thought was a rough range that 1915 A-1s were going for, to the best of my knowledge. I told him that, honestly, I was no expert myself, and that the instrument might have some special feature that made it especially collectable (e.g., I didn't know about snakeheads at the time .., and anyway, it wasn't), and that he might want to get it appraised. But I offered him a price at the low end of this estimate, in cash. Though it was more than he asked for, and more than what I could have paid, I think this was probably the better tact to take. I would have felt bad if the shoe were on the other foot!

allenhopkins

Jul-08-2018, 11:09pm

As i stated in the original post I have no idea what its worth.

I am assuming you went on Google -- probably how you found the Mandolin Cafe, right? -- and saw Gibson K-4's being listed with asking prices over $10,000. Now, were those realistic market values? Hell, no. But it might have generated a little suspicion on your part that an appraisal of $800 was a bit, say, low-ball.

I know what COULD possibly be worth BUT don't know anything about it until I have a professional appraisal. The seller stated that he had an appraisal done and the appraiser told him the value was around $800.I can't help it if the appraiser either 1) didn't have a clue what he was looking at OR 2) was trying to take advantage of him OR 3) is accurate in his appraisal.

You are absolutely right; you can't help the fact that the appraiser was, to put it kindly, incompetent. There are "appraisers" who take the original selling price (which peaked at $345 in 1920, according to this article (https://www.vintageguitar.com/3297/gibsons-k-4-mandocello/)), add inflation, subtract depreciation, and come up with a "current appraised value." They know zilch about the vintage instrument market. But you went here to check the validity of that $800 appraisal, and you got a lot of good, knowledgeable responses. The gist of them was that $800 is hopelessly inaccurate, perhaps by a factor of ten.

So what the high and mighty's are saying is that i should pay to get a professional appraisal then pay the seller what the appraiser says or what the seller then deems fair. Is it me or does that seem kind of ludicrous. I am a man of pretty high integrity and take exception that i am intentionally going out of my way to take advantage of someone.

Well, don't know if you think I'm "high and mighty," but I'm not saying that. You don't need another appraisal; you've gotten a lot of good information from a bunch of experienced people. I can't speak to your intentions. Were I in your shoes, I'd be a bit PO'ed that a bunch of people I don't know were questioning my ethics. But that doesn't alter the facts -- that $800 is, to use your term, a ludicrously low price for a good-condition Gibson K-4. It would be unrealistically low for a K-4 that needed a thousand-dollar restoration.

I am sorry that i used this forum to ask any questions and i will remember this in the future and i only hope that someday that we all can live up to the high moral standards of some people on this forum.

And I'm sorry you feel that way. All we did was give you the information you asked for -- tell you that the appraisal was almost certainly wrong if the instrument's as you describe, and that the K-4 is worth several thousand dollars. You are facing a bit of an ethical dilemma -- now that you've received the response you asked us for -- and I can see both sides of it. You're giving the seller what he/she is asking, which is how business is conducted, generally. On the other hand, you now know that the seller's asking a fraction of what the instrument's worth, and may be uninformed or misinformed about what he/she has.

You're not obliged to pay more than the asking price. And, in a way, you could say that you'd have been better off not asking for information here. But you can't un-ring that bell. What you do now is your choice, and not really our business.

allenhopkins

Jul-08-2018, 11:18pm

Sorry -- duplicate post.

mrmando

Jul-08-2018, 11:27pm

I am assuming you went on Google -- probably how you found the Mandolin Cafe, right?
OP has been a member here for a year.

multidon

Jul-09-2018, 5:49am

According to my copy of the 2014 Vintage Guitar Price Guide, which gives retail price ranges assuming excellent condition, a Gibson K-4 mandocello can be expected to sell for $7200-$9000 if it is 1912-1921. If it is 1925-1929, $7500-$9400. But if it is, as this one supposedly is, Loar era 1922-24, then they go for $12,500-$15,500.

The guide further notes that the K-4 mandocello was available only as a special order post-1929. There are no Loar era K-2s because production ceased in 1922. K-1s continued to be offered until 1943, albeit sporadically.

The 2014 edition is the latest one I own. I really do need to get a new one. I don’t buy one every year but it’s about time. I will note, however, that this price guide is the one most commonly used as reference by vintage instrument dealers at guitar shows. There are of course others. But if the OP is really looking for accurate information, there he goes. It seems that any instrument Gibson made has a premium attached to it if it can be shown through serial number, FON, or both, that it was produced during Lloyd Loar’s tenure, even if he didn’t sign it. I believe F-5s were the only instruments he signed. But F-2s, F-4s, mandolas, and mandocello all have pricing premiums if made between 1922-1924.

grassrootphilosopher

Jul-09-2018, 7:23am

As i stated in the original post I have no idea what its worth. I know what COULD possibly be worth BUT don't know anything about it until I have a professional appraisal. The seller stated that he had an appraisal done and the appraiser told him the value was around $800.I can't help it if the appraiser either 1) didn't have a clue what he was looking at OR 2) was trying to take advantage of him OR 3) is accurate in his appraisal. So what the high and mighty's are saying is that i should pay to get a professional appraisal then pay the seller what the appraiser says or what the seller then deems fair. Is it me or does that seem kind of ludicrous. I am a man of pretty high integrity and take exception that i am intentionally going out of my way to take advantage of someone. I am sorry that i used this forum to ask any questions and i will remember this in the future and i only hope that someday that we all can live up to the high moral standards of some people on this forum.

Jim,

unfortunately many of the contributors to this thread are basing their opinion on assumtions and pure guesswork. I orignially did not want to post in this thread but I feel compelled to do so for just this reason.

While pictures say more than a thousand words and the experts on this forum are more than willing and able to give a fact based statement of an instruments value, this case is different.

We have absolutely nothing to go upon. There is absolutely no information available other than the assumption that the instrument in question is a 20ies K-4. I would not even be sure about the model. Whe had a number of threads where a serial number or a FON was misread thus turning the instrument in question into something else than what was previously assumed.

Could it be possible that the appraisal is correct? Could it be that a 20ies K-4 would hold a value of 800,- USD? Why, I say yes. If the instrument has had a neck change. multiple repaired and unrepaired cracks, a (badly executed) refin, a regraduated/thinned/sinking top, odor issues etc.

So whatever the case may be, I am okay with you buying the instrument. You asked questions and you were unjustly hammered with ethics.

If you have the instrument in hand, would you mind posting a picture here? I´d like that.

multidon

Jul-09-2018, 8:09am

I don’t think we are basing outer opinions on “pure guesswork”. We were given a set of “facts”. Whether they are truly a set set of facts or “fake news” depends totally on the reliability of the OP, who says he is a man of “pretty high integrity”. He tells us it is a Gibson K4 mandocello. He gives us a serial number that indicates it is a 1922. He states that serial number without any apparent doubt. He says it “looks pretty nice”, was “always kept in its case”, and “has the original pickguard”. Given this set of facts, it is possible to come up with a reasonable ballpark of value. True, he has not posted any piictures, but all of us know that while pictures may show obvious damage, some damage may remain hidden and would only become obvious with a hands on examination by an expert. Still, I would interpret “looks pretty nice” as not having any damage, at least not any that would be obvious to the average person.

Indeed, pictures would help, but he has not provided any, nor would I expect him to at this point.

Grassrootphilosopher says we are unfair to subject him to ethics. But he VOLUNTEERED the information about the seemingly inept appraisal, the 600 dollar offer, and acceptance of same. The “ethics” then becomes the 800 pound gorilla in the room. What were we supposed to say? There are two sides on this thread. There were those who said, effectively, “Go get it! Don’t ask questions! And if you don’t get it, tell ME where it is so I can get it!” And there is the other side, those who see it like I do.

In fact, this whole thing is starting to fail my smell test. I’m wondering now if the whole thing is even real. Maybe were all being set up with an old fashioned troll just to start an argument. If that’s the case, I’m done. Don, out.

mrmando

Jul-09-2018, 2:17pm

Keep your eye on Mando Hangout and the Akron-Canton Craigslist for mandocello ads, is all I can say.

Steve Roberts

Jul-09-2018, 3:10pm

Keep your eye on Mando Hangout and the Akron-Canton Craigslist for mandocello ads, is all I can say.

I'm in Cleveland and just checked Craigslist for this very reason! No mandocellos listed.

allenhopkins

Jul-09-2018, 4:07pm

...many of the contributors to this thread are basing their opinion on assum[p]tions and pure guesswork...

Actually, basing it on info the OP posted. The "assumption" was that it was accurately descriptive. I give the OP sufficient credit, that he's giving us the facts he has.

If those aren't facts, the whole discussion's a futile exercise. However, given the facts as stated, we did the best we could to respond -- both to the possible/probable market value of the described K-4, and to the ethical dilemma we saw in the wildly understated proposed selling price.

That's enough for me, I guess. We have surely alienated the OP by accusing him, by inference, of being unscrupulous. Which was not my intent, at any rate.

Were I in his shoes, I think I'd offer the seller more money. But maybe I wouldn't; maybe I'd say "This is my lucky day!" and take advantage of the situation. No one's saying it's an easy, clear choice.

grassrootphilosopher

Jul-10-2018, 7:26am

Actually, basing it on info the OP posted. The "assumption" was that it was accurately descriptive. I give the OP sufficient credit, that he's giving us the facts he has.

If those aren't facts, the whole discussion's a futile exercise. ...

Sorry for the typos.

I presume that the discussion is a futile exercise indeed.

The problem is that there is a wide gap between an appraisal for 800,- USD and "looks really nice", "being kept in the case" etc. etc.

Whenever I see obvious indicators that make me doubt the one or the other "fact" then I do.

In this case either the "factual description" of the instrument is not valid (see my comment about for example misreading FONs or serial numbers) or the appraisal is not correct (maybe a typo that left a zero out: 800,- USD instead of 8.000,- USD). I think this is all possible. That is why I normally steer away from threads like these.

But here I saw a moral storm being brewed up just because someone who is obviously a normal person has valid questions.

He clearly stated that the appraisal was for 800,- USD. Taken for fact there is no reason to per se mistrust the person who appraised the instrument and therefore mistrusting the appraisal. Taken for fact that the instrument has "stayed in the case" and is "pretty nice" and reading into that that there were no severely compromising repairs done to the instrument (we know nothing about that, do we?), then there is no doubt that the instrument is worth way, way more than 800,- USD.

Come on fellas, you know as much as I. Which are the facts that make you think the instrument is worth more than 800,- USD or that the appraisal is false. If you can explain then I will gladly stand corrected.

William Smith

Jul-10-2018, 10:34am

Personally I would tell the seller it could and pry is worth more money but if he is happy with the price he wants to get without trying to sell to dealer's and shopping/ fishing around to get the best price possible, maybe the seller doesn't want to go through all that hassle? I would definitely buy and if I decided to sell I would tell the seller there would be some extra money coming to him IF I decided to sell. I don't believe any dealer would do that if they ran across something in a paper, garage sale or word of mouth-they want profit!!!
What is the difference than a dealer giving you a lowball offer on something you had for sale that you offered for sale if you walked into their shop? Happens all the time, happened to me-its their job, make $!
Recently I wanted to get something that has been sitting around for well over 3 years and at around 30G,but their price was way high anyway for it, but no cash on hand so I offered what I had for trade and well they said they'd take this and this and this etc..to make it an even swap but what they wanted was not even and they would be getting about a 12G profit maybe a bit more-needless to say I didn't trade! Everyone has their own perspective on ethics.

manjitsu

Jul-10-2018, 10:35am

Regardless of where one stands on the moral issue(s) that popped up in this thread, it sure would be interesting to hear how things panned out for the OP, and of course to get to see what the old girl actually looks like.

I, for one, always enjoy hearing stories of people making great musical finds and rescuing instruments that have languished in closets gathering dust. I’ve had the pleasure of making a few of those finds myself over the years.

It’s a magical moment when you’re opening that old musty black case for the first time, not knowing exactly what you’ll find on the inside!

Maybe the OP will be inclined to pop back in with an update. :-)

-Chris

slimt

Jul-10-2018, 3:44pm

It probably was a pawn shop with there in house appraisal and checking value for resale. There the only ones i know that would rape a person for there gain at a large profit. If it was not. No pictures. So it must not exist.

AndyV

Jul-14-2018, 2:17pm

I've been putting off comment for too long and now there's so much more to reply to.

On any forum, when someone asks what an item they want to sell is worth there will be the "whatever someone's willing to pay" reply, - obviously meaning the most someone will pay. Could not a buyer's POV be the inverse without being shameful?

As for the facts offered by the OP and the question of the validity of the appraisal, he's given a number of details, all positives. Surely he would have shared any flaws he was aware of. So for whatever reason, that appraisal is off.

I recently stumbled on a great deal on a K1. The seller said they'd researched on line and found what year it was made (I forget what she said, don't know if she was right) and found that they sell for $1100 to $1200 (I was surprised it was this low, seemed wrong) but because of a few minor issues and an old headstock break repair she was selling for less than half that.
I was not too confident in that repair, and had little idea of how much it would cost to have redone as well as the other issues.
Someone else had looked at it earlier but had only brought $100 for a guitar that the woman was selling. She said he was thinking about the mandocello and would probably be back with her asking price.

I thought I'd never own a Mandocello; I don't have that money. I decided to do a guitar conversion and had started on a junker when this opportunity came along. So this was my chance.
From chatting with the couple, I know they are not hard-up. They have or had at least one rental property and though their house is old and nothing special the property is easily worth a couple million. I'm not suggesting this would make ripping them off okay, but if she was selling to keep the lights on, I definitely would have payed more than asking. I don't know how much; that's a "what if?".

Years ago I got a great deal on a minty old Kay archtop from a 20ish rock bass player. (I'm sure that money was up in smoke before the weekend was done.)
About a year later I doubled my money on it. - My son still hasn't forgiven me. The buyer freaked out when he saw it first hand and wanted to pay more than we'd previously agreed on. He was early 20's and had had to wait for payday to make the purchase. He was going to get the extra he wanted to pay from his fiance waiting in the car. I told him no, we'd already agreed on a price.

In the past two weeks I've sold a couple tenors, both at double my purchase cost. Both had required work which I did myself (great experiences, even with the cussing). I sold them at very reasonable prices, one probably half what I could have got. Both buyers were tickled.

So, it's give and take, see-saw, ebb and flow, and pay it forward, karmic balance.

allenhopkins

Jul-14-2018, 5:10pm

AndyV, I'm assuming you bought the K-1, and I see nothing wrong with your getting it a low price -- from an informed seller, who knew what she had, had done a bit of price research (though I do think she was working with some "vintage" price guides), and was willing to let it go "cheap" because of condition issues, perhaps a desire to "clean house," or because she liked your looks and your earnest demeanor. Whatever.

This thread, however, seemed to concern a proposed transaction where the seller had much less knowledge, and was relying on an "appraisal" that could have been for 10-15% of what K-4's are going for at reputable dealers. In the end, for sure, an instrument is "worth" whatever the seller is willing to take for it; that's the supply/demand definition from Economics 1. And that will vary widely based on dozens of variables.

The thread generated a fair number of posts raising ethical issues -- should one take advantage of an uninformed seller, if the buyer knows what value the current marketplace generally assigns? Each of us loves a bargain, loves to read about the $200K Lloyd Loar F-5 found at the flea market for $500, loves to hear of another musician's good luck (or else is consumed by jealousy!).

My memory may not be totally accurate, but I think I read of a Lloyd Loar Gibson F-5 being brought into the Denver Folklore Center not too long ago, by a person who only knew that it was an old mandolin that was lying around the house. Clearly, the Folklore Center could have made the person quite happy by buying it for, say, $5K, then reselling it for 30-40 times that. Instead, they informed the seller of the Loar's current market value, and worked out a consignment deal with Elderly Instruments and the Folklore Center, that gave the seller the opportunity to realize a six-figure return, while the dealer(s) would make a decent buck in consignment fees.

I don't do a lot of private-sale buying, and I often seek out professional advice from my dealer friends before I do. I just acquired, for example, a 21-bar Schmidt Autoharp, used but decent shape, for $100; they sell for around $300 new, but you can find them all over eBay for price ranging from $75 to $250. The seller was informed, I pretty much was too; he wanted to downsize an accumulation of various instruments (anyone want a hurdy-gurdy? He's got two), and I was contemplating teaching Autoharp, where some of the students might have 21-bar instruments, and I didn't have one.

Market economics, as I understand it, only generates its benign Smithian "invisible hand" in the unlikely case where there is "perfect information" between buyer and seller. In the case proposed in this thread, there was a passel of misinformation, which led some of us to wonder if the prospective buyer shouldn't consider paying more than the price the seller was asking. Which, of course, generated some (understandable) resentment, since ethics were being questioned.

I don't know the answer. I'd hope to err on the side of paying something like the elusive "fair market value." But "fair," as we know, is subjectively defined, and who am I to insist on a particular personal definition?

AndyV

Jul-14-2018, 5:30pm

Allen, Yes I did buy it (didn't realize I hadn't said so) and yes she was cleaning house. She was selling a cheap Hoyer archtop and her brother's K1 and some domras and balalaikas he'd built. He died in '86 and she decided it was time to let them go. I do wonder if she was looking at mandolins in her research, not mandocellos.

Hmmm... a hurdy-gury you say?...

Timbofood

Jul-15-2018, 5:59pm

“Informed sellers” who have decided to undervalue or erstwhile “blow out” an instrument due to many reasons are out there. A longstanding friend of mine had a dealing with a truly amazing D-21 which the seller adamantly swore was a “D-18 Special” (?!) The seller refused to accept the far greater knowledge of my friend so, the informed seller seemed to suffer from an internet cranial reversal for one reason or another WOULD NOT acknowledge buyers superior knowledge and allowed sale for half of what market would happily bear.
My friend and I simply laughed about the entire exchange, buyer willing and happy to pay fair market value but seller pretty much said that it “too much”. Whatever it is, the converse of “Caveat Emptor”, must apply in that case!
“There’s NOObody like people!” - Charlie Waller!