Is trying to learn on a Harmony going to be more too frustrating?

[Tenzin]

Good morning,
I'm a little past being mediocre on the guitar :) and I was wondering about learning on a Harmony. I got the Harmony as a gift from a gentlemen who used to be a pretty good Luthier when he was younger. I did some computer forensics for him and he told his son, who now ran his shop (more like a business) to 'just grab me something nice'. I didn't know much, and it was a gift, so I accepted graciously.

I know about half a dozen four finger chords, but playing individual notes and runs just sounds very muddy. Is that just me being pre-mediocre and I just have to put the time in or is playing on an inexpensive mandolin just not going to get me there?

Thanks,

[F-2 Dave]

It’s really hard to say. If the Harmony is set up well, it should be fine. Have you tried playing other mandolins?

[Tenzin]

The harmony was setup by a luthier so I'm going to say it's as good as it's going to get. The independent and chaing music stores (I'm fortunate enough to have a few within driving distance) don't really want to sell instruements. I broke my wrist and decided to get back into playing guitar. Martin was the brand, so I set out with that in mind. I'm no kid (over 50) and had a budget in my head of no more than $5k. I went to two independent music shops twice each and I just felt like I was bothering them. When I asked where to look, they just pointed. I didn't really feel comfortable getting down $3-$5k guitars and no one would be bothered to even come in the room to see what I was doing. I went to a Guitar Center and a Sam Ash. Both had people unlock and hand me guitars, but they made no reccomendations, didn't ask me what music I played, didn't point me to anything. I tire quickly of begging people to take my money. (I ended up getting an OM-21 from Elderly. I spoke with them about three times and did some research.)

The closest place that I'd buy a $500-$1,000 mandolin (places that knew one mandoln from another and could actually set one up) is about an hour away. I guess I'm just being lazy. ;)

Thanks for looking and replying so quickly.

[Denny Gies]

Seems to me that anything you learn on the Harmony should be transferable to a better instrument when you can afford one.

[F-2 Dave]

I have a few nice mandolins, been playing for forty years or so. When I don't sound good it's me not the mandolin. Generally speaking, higher end mandolins sound better than lower tier instruments. Having said that though, my new favorite is an $799 Eastman. Just gonna have to get out there and play some. Best of luck to you.

[Timbofood]

I started on a Harmony.
How old are the strings?

[B381]

I tire quickly of begging people to take my money.

And all the people said AMEN!

[Tenzin]

I did re-string it recently. I guess I knew the answer was just stop trying to think, "it's gott to be something else" and just sit down and play and pick.

Thanks all!

[Seter]

What model of Harmony is it? Harmony had a long and storied history, with some models being nicer than others. Pictures would be nice.

[MikeZito]

As a 'little past mediocre guitar player', you should be able to pretty well trust your instincts on what is a comfortable instrument, and what is not. For my 2-cents (as a 'well-below mediocre' mandolin player) I would say that the instrument you learn on is not a concern - just as long as you are learning. If at some future point you decide that you want to take your mandolin playing more seriously, and you feel that your instrument is holding you back, THEN you can re-examine what mandolin to move up to . . . but for now; play, learn and enjoy.

[Br1ck]

Just because the guy is a luthier doesn't mean he's qualified to set up a mandolin. Get Rob Meldrum's e book, a six inch ruler and a set of feeler gauges and see if you are close to what is correct.

If you are, it's you. Get a metronome. Start playing scales. Listen for clarity and try to make your up strokes match your downstrokes. The things you are playing, do the same. Don't speed up until you can play clean. Every little thing matters. A common issue is not placing your finger right on the sweet spot and fretting cleanly. Get your pinky working even if it doesn't make sense to you. You will need it.

Make sure you train your right hand to pick in the sweet spot at the end of the fretboard. I keep wanting to drift back toward the bridge.

I'm thinking you will want a better mandolin after putting in all that work, so start saving. Oh, an added bonus is that because you have to be so precise, your guitar picking will be cleaner.

[AndyV]

I don't know if this will shine a light on anything, but you say individual note muddy. You don't seem to have a problem with the sound closed chords....

Anyone?

[mreidsma]

My first thought on reading “muddy individual notes” is action higher than he’s used to on a guitar, so not fretting all the way. I have my action a little higher than my Dad prefers it, so when he plays my instruments he has to remember to push hard or things come out a bit muddy.

Rob’s book will help with lowering the action (but not with fretting - your fingers will have to do that. ;) )

-M

[Tenzin]

Just because the guy is a luthier doesn't mean he's qualified to set up a mandolin. Get Rob Meldrum's e book, a six inch ruler and a set of feeler gauges and see if you are close to what is correct.

If you are, it's you. Get a metronome. Start playing scales. Listen for clarity and try to make your up strokes match your downstrokes. The things you are playing, do the same. Don't speed up until you can play clean. Every little thing matters. A common issue is not placing your finger right on the sweet spot and fretting cleanly. Get your pinky working even if it doesn't make sense to you. You will need it.

Make sure you train your right hand to pick in the sweet spot at the end of the fretboard. I keep wanting to drift back toward the bridge.

I'm thinking you will want a better mandolin after putting in all that work, so start saving. Oh, an added bonus is that because you have to be so precise, your guitar picking will be cleaner.

I have the gauges and such from Stew-Mac to double check. I'm pretty sure the problem is going to be the same one as if I spent $5k… me. :) .

I put my guitars away when I had my children, and then broke the wrist on my dominant hand. For purely theraputic reason, I got out my Gibson and put in a new nut & shaved the bridge and it has never played better. I also purchased a Martin OM-21 because it is just so amazing for the size. (I started playing in the late '70s and purchased the Gibson used and didn't know enough to question the set-up.)

I was really surprised that given the limitations of my wrist (I can't tie shoe laces, I need to use both hands now to bludgeon the odd person that stumbles onto my grass…) that playing for an hour or two everyday I regained as much as I did. I guess I'm comparing how guitar came back to me to learning something new.

I'll take some measurements, but I just have to spend the time.

Thanks !

[Spencer]

Mike Compton told me he started on a Harmony.

Spencer

[Hypoxia]

I started in the mando world on Grandpa's ancient heavy banjo-mandolin and learned to handle dynamic excesses and stiff action. I learned to play more softly on an old Kay, probably in the same league as OP's Harmony. It is not bad. My cheap Soviet-era Lunasharsky is... well, not exactly bad, but surely funky. That's my go-to for funky sounds, set in Yank Rachell EBF#B tuning for blues. The Kay in standard GDAE works fine for mid-range music. My custom-build Celtic mando is wonderful by itself, very evocative. My cheaper mandos blend nicely with other instruments. I doubt anyone but I notices their shortcomings.

Summary: Don't sweat it. Learn fingerings, scales, chords. Move that muscle memory to any mando of any price. Have fun.

[MikeEdgerton]

There are real Harmony instruments that were made in Chicago and there are imported instruments that are Harmony in name only. Indeed some were better than others but the vast majority of them were entry level inexpensive instruments. I've always wondered if anyone at the height of production was assigned the job of trying to figure out how to make them sound better. I'm under the impression that cost and cosmetics were the only factors driving production. The plus side is that the Chicago built acoustic (not electric) instruments were solid woods up until just about the end. The bad news is that the only reason any of us bought those things was because it was all we could afford at the time. I don't buy the mojo thing, I played them when I was young. If you could post a picture we could make some determinations and if you look inside with a flashlight and look for an oval, circle or square stamp with numbers that begin with an F or and S we can tell you when it was made. Sometimes the stamp is there without the outer frame.

[CES]

Also, check for fret wear. I have an old Kentucky that’s well set up, but has skinny traditional frets and so much 1st position wear that it’s difficult to play cleanly. Just a thought. Mine’s not worth refretting, though I may try it just to learn...

Yes, give it some time and practice, you’ll get there!

[stevedenver]

Well, all good advice above.
1 since your ear is presumably accustomed to guitar, lower end mandolins will sound....plinky, may have little sustain
2 lighter strings wont help tone, but, will make playing easier, to start
3 most critical is bridge placement and height for intonation. Use a good tuner for determining 12th fret intonation. Be aware, often bridges sit at an angle, for better intonation, not strictly straight across. Also, height for treble strings may be lower than for the bass strings.
4 ....fwiw, I committed to playing mando, and, i reluctantly swallowed the large pill of mando prices and bought a great mando as my first. I do not regret this, eight years on.
5 my first mando, before i re commited, was a gibson 1935 a50 with raised fingerboard extention, a not bad mando. But, it was tough to play, plinky, and simply did not have a sweetness to it. While i continued, all of this niggled me, subconciously. The instrument, imho, DOES make a big difference. Not a substitute for practice, but, you hear your rewards, imho. Fwiw, its all about your budget and commitment.

There are some great asian mandos for comparatively little money. Try to find some to test drive.

6 get your harmony set up comfortably, practice daily, see if you wish to commit.

7 search on this forum for rob meldrum. I couldnt find a link for you. He has a great free booklet on mando mechanics and set up. It will help you a great deal in assessing your harmony.

8 buy several set of strings on line...light and medium, it is nice to have spares when you need them. They will break. Thet are much less $ on line. While you're at it, buy a few picks. Most prefer 346 larger triangle. Proplec, prime tone, dunlop are inexpensive places to start. Rounded has a different sound and feel than pointed corners. Try both.

9 get a decent tuner. A snark black version for guitar and violin should do it. Snark 8 i believe. Not too pricey. Mandos quick decay can make some tuners less effective.

[Tenzin]

Thanks for the great advice! I just got the tools (string action & feeler gauges) to double check the setup. (I've played 1/2 a dozen low line mandolins and this seems to have good action.

I have a TC clipon that's an amazing tuner, and I've got a pretty good sense of hearing for that. Also, coming from the acoustic guitar realm, I have some excellent picks (Charmed Life, Blue Chip, Dawg (David Grisman's 'branded').

I really have to just play more. The part that is discourgaging is even when I am plucking a single note, or a two or three finger chord, the best I get is that 'plinky' or muddy sound.

I really have to research proper setup and actually use the the tools that I have to see if I'm getting the best sound I can first.

Thanks for all the ideas!

[stevedenver]

Thanks for the great advice! I just got the tools (string action & feeler gauges) to double check the setup. (I've played 1/2 a dozen low line mandolins and this seems to have good action.

I have a TC clipon that's an amazing tuner, and I've got a pretty good sense of hearing for that. Also, coming from the acoustic guitar realm, I have some excellent picks (Charmed Life, Blue Chip, Dawg (David Grisman's 'branded').

I really have to just play more. The part that is discourgaging is even when I am plucking a single note, or a two or three finger chord, the best I get is that 'plinky' or muddy sound.

I really have to research proper setup and actually use the the tools that I have to see if I'm getting the best sound I can first.

Thanks for all the ideas!

Great.
I too use the tc polytune, but, being $50, i thought it might be too pricey. They are great for mandos quick decay, as they read quickly. Great selection of picks as well.

Best of luck. More than likely, as your ear accepts mando tone, and your technique changes, the plinky may subside, and, become more familiar and pleasant.

Fwiw, and not to be a $&9@, when i bought my 02 gibson fern, after not playing mando for at least twenty five+ years, at first strum, the difference in sweetness and sustain was an epiphany. Similar to the elation i had with my first martin d28! Not plinky.(why such a plunge? Id been in lust with an f5 since i was 16, but they were simply unavailable in 1970, and waaaaay outside my means, for decades.)

I predict, that mando may consume you. It did me, for about six years. In part too, because i got drafted into a bluegrass band as mandolinist.....added to the impetus.

I found that scales, melodies became intuitive. Id played guitar for decades, went to music school, and never had quite the ease of musical sailing as i had with mando after only a few months of learning basics and fiddle tunes.

I eventually regained balance with my guitar and bass, and, added banjo.

[Charlie Bernstein]

And remember that mandos are plinkier than guitars. They're supposed to plink. Plinkety-plinkety plink!

They shouldn't be muddy, though. That would discourage me.

But if it's comfortable to play - no alarming pain or numbness in your fingers, hand, arm, or shoulder - then how about keeping this one and using it while you save up for an axe you truly love the sound of? And then keeping the Harmony as your Number Two?

[Seter]

I'm still curious as to what model of Harmony it happens to be. Supposedly it's a nicer one since the OP requested "something nice".

[Zigeuner]

A friend has a Harmony Monterey Mandolin. They play like any other, although the sound is not optimum. They are perfectly fine to learn and practice on if set up properly with good strings.

[Br1ck]

Have you played a well setup pro level mandolin? It is a dangerous thing to do, but would tell you right off if it was you or the mandolin that was the problem. My guess would be both to some extent.

One thing's for sure. If you like the tone, you'll play it more. Recently someone posted their first mandolin was a Collings. No one told them they didn't deserve to play one.

[Tenzin]

I'm thinking that there are a few things at play. First and foremost is my lack of skill. I did measure the action and at the 12th fret the E string measures 0.9 " and the G is 1.1". The strings don't really 'ring' enough to do a simple hammer on / off. One place that does set-ups (and they didn't seemed all that thrilled about it) charges close to $100 to start.

It's really a shame that I live in a suburban area (there's a Guitar Center and a Sam Ash within 15 miles) and a number of independent music stores but I have such a bad taste from when I went to buy a Martin. <shakes head> I had a budget of up to $5k and they ignored me. (And I specifically didn't go at a busy time and I made two trips to each store. I didn't keep it a secret what I was buying either.) I guess they don't work on commission.

I'm on Long Island. I'll have to look into this more. One of the tougher things is that I broke my wrist on my dominant hand so it doesn't have the strength or dexterity, or I'd get 1/2 a dozen sets of strings and give it a go myself.

If you smell smoke don't worry. It's just me thinking. ;)

[MikeEdgerton]

I might consider driving into Retrofret if I was you. I still mourn the loss of Mandolin Brothers on Staten Island.

http://retrofret.com/

[F-2 Dave]

I've never personally let lack of skill interfere with a mandolin purchase. I just don't need that kind of negativity in my life.

[Tenzin]

I am so tempted by this https://reverb.com/item/13509817-morris-mandolin-a-5-382-july-2017-us-made-two-tone-sunburst . I know it doesn't have the bling, but everything I've read says it's a wonderful piece of work.

[Tenzin]

I am so tempted by this https://reverb.com/item/13509817-morris-mandolin-a-5-382-july-2017-us-made-two-tone-sunburst . I know it doesn't have the bling, but everything I've read says it's a wonderful piece of work.

It's ended since I posted this :(

[stevedenver]

Id suggest, just to hear and feel the difference, that you try a collings a...should be fairly easy to find.

[Roger Moss]

It can't be as frustrating as trying to learn mandolin on a trumpet.

[Tenzin]

Id suggest, just to hear and feel the difference, that you try a collings a...should be fairly easy to find.

It's hard to believe that between one Sam Ash, two Guitar Centers, RetroFit, and a bunch of independent stores, there are about a 1/2 dozen different mandolins, most being F-style (which while lovely, I don't think give me the best 'bang for my buck'. If the spirit moves me, I may just pull the trigger on a tried and true (Eastman, Kentucky, The Loar) at a place where I can be assured of an excellent setup (someplace like themandolnstore.com). I may just wait and see if something comes up here in the classifieds from someone reputable.

Thanks for all the comments!

[Tenzin]

<screams> I went to Guitar Center and Sam Asch. I told them I wanted to spend 'around $1,000' and that I'd be happy with an A-shape and it could be used or shop-worn. One actually put a mandoln in my hands...sounded very nice. I asked how much and he said, "$3,500". I guess that's close to $1,000. Next stop I told them the same thing and the gentlemen pointed to a rack where they were locked but didn't bother to join me when I went over. What an economy where they don't even want your money. ;)

This is why I laugh when they talk about how internet stores 'stole' their business. Customer service costs practically nothing. Sachs is still in business while Woolworth is a memory.

[Br1ck]

You would do well to buy from a sponsor here.

If you are the kind of person who sticks with something once they put their mind to it, up your game to a quality mandolin. I started on an Eastman MD 505, a good enough mandolin, but quickly moved up to my Silverangel. The 900 and above Kentuckys are pretty good, the lower end of the well known companies like Weber, Collings, Northfield, etc. are a notch above that. People love their Morris mandolins a lot too.

Spend $1200 used and you'd start off with something you would love to spend time with. Your beginer's tunes will sound good, you'll want to play more, which just speeds up your progress. Knowing what I know now, and if you can afford it, a better mandolin is the way to go.

Otherwise, get a KM 150 from a sponsor. It will play well and sound OK.

[Tenzin]

I have to thank everyone who has responded! So. I have properly placed the bridge. (Open string & 12 fret are now perfect octave's apart) And I've lowered the action. I even have a set of D'addario medium strings on their way. So far I've only invested my time (I actually enjoy learning) and a set of strings (or two). Small beans. I have to see if I can get it to where *I* can practice for a week or two regularly and get some basic scales (slow but sure) and basic hammer ons /pull offs sounding (to my ear) acceptable. I think if I get that far, then I can decide if I'm going to spend around 1k or not. I don't gig and I sing pretty poorly. ;) I do have a very good memory and some music theory training (although not in violin tuned instruements). I have the proper tools to measure height so I'm ahead of the game in being able to describe my situation. (I have to say I'm pretty darn proud I was able to get the bridge placed properly with only popping one string in two days time!)

Thanks to all!

[Br1ck]

I buy half a dz. E strings when doing setup work. The tuning, detuning takes a toll on them. It is very satisfying to get a mandolin playing right.

[Tenzin]

I'm not sure if I should start a new thread, but it still has to do with learning on a Harmony. I can chalk up the hammer-on & pull-offs to needing practice. That's ok. I'm finding the A & D definately has a nicer sound than the E or G. The A & D sort of ring while the E & G sound like they were a from a different set. I ordered a fresh set of GHS Mediums. (I've liked them on the guitar while I really disliked the sound of D'Addarios on both a Gibson Jumbo and Martin OM. I figured I'd give the GHS a try.)

Scales are coming and I'm able to put some music theory to use. I'm able to play a G chord with a full four fingers and move that around and I'm working on C. Any other suggestions or thoughts? (Am I being too much of a pain in the behind?)

Thanks