Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

[Mark Gunter]

Irks me to no end when I see ads in the classifieds that state things like, "Buyer pays PayPal fees" - when this is meant to convey that the seller accepts PayPal, but he's going to charge a surcharge from the buyer, on top of his asking price, to cover PayPal fees.

The reason this bothers me is because it tells me up front that I'm dealing with a seller who is in total disregard of his contract with PayPal! I believe that a seller should be honest in honoring his contract with PayPal's User Agreement.


Accepting Payments From Buyers for Goods and Services


Receiving personal payments

If you use your PayPal account to receive payments for the sale of goods and services or accept donations, you must not ask your buyer to send you money using the “send money to a friend or family member.” If you do so, PayPal may remove your PayPal account’s ability to accept payments from friends or family members.

No surcharges

You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.



To break it down, a person who sells an item and wishes to have the convenience of offering PayPal must pay a fee on the transaction. This is part of the seller's cost of business, and this cost should be considered by the seller when he arrives at an asking price. In other words, get enough money for your item to cover the fee you know as a business person you must pay!

It is a violation of the PayPal User Agreement to charge a customer a surcharge for using PayPal! The price paid by a PayPal user should be the same as a price paid by any other method. If a seller charges any fee on top of his asking price to a PayPal user, he or she must charge the same fee to buyers who do not use PayPal.

None of this is rocket science. In the past when things like this have been brought up in this forum, always there have been discussions about why some people feel justified in breaking the user agreement. But there can be no question that sellers who require buyers to pay extra on top of their asking price to cover PayPal fees are in violation of their merchant users agreement with PayPal.

So discuss it if you want, but as a long-time seller using PayPal, I know what the agreement is, and I only post about this because I see it in the classifieds and am hoping maybe offenders are unaware of the agreement they have with PayPal and will benefit from this post -- to the end that they will ask enough money for their items up front, and stop requesting buyers to pay additional fees ...

[slimt]

I wont do business with a seller that asks for the extra of to cough up additional funds. so they dont lose out on there 50 bucks..
I also wont do business with a seller that over inflates prices for shipping to compinsate for there paypal fees.. ..

The reason most wont sell on ebay is the final value fees that they take.. which is alot..

long story short.. if the seller cannot accept a loss for there high gain.. there not worth doing business with..

I agree with what you have said.

[Ryk Loske]

All 10 thumbs up from here!
Scott has covered this amply; the buyer paying fees and the seller wanting to use "friends and family". The seller has an agreement with PayPal but intends to disregard it. Your word is you word is your word. How can a buyer expect an honest transaction when the seller has demonstrated a disregard for an agreement willingly made.
Ryk

[Steve Baker]

Well, I had forgotten about this. Been a long time since I signed up with PayPal. I tend to agree with you. The PayPal fee is not unreasonable and is really no different from what the credit card companies charge merchants who use them. My $0.02.
Steve

[Dacraw54]

The Seller doesn’t get any ‘convenience’ from using PayPal - having the money immediately available isn’t that convenient when it really can’t be spent until after the Approval period after the buyer receives the instrument The buyer gets PayPal’s buyer’s guarantee, a safe way of tracking the transaction, and a way to get his money back. If you’re not sure of a buyer, then that is worth upfronting 3%. Sending a check or a bank check puts you at the Sellers discretion - although with the added Security checks Scott provides that isn’t really an issue, as is using PayPal’s Friends and Family feature to reduce the overhead to the Seller. Most transactions are negotiable and PayPal fees and Shipping costs are usually negotiated. Nobody on the Cafe is trying to screw anybody else, in my experience. All transactions are Mano-A-Mano and throwing down ‘absolutes’ in hypothetical situations does not foster harmony.

[Mark Gunter]

and throwing down ‘absolutes’ in hypothetical situations does not foster harmony.

Neither does presumption and misrepresentation foster harmony, Dacraw54. It would be a misrepresentation of what I've written to say that I'm "throwing down absolutes" ... also to characterize the practices referred to as "hypothetical situations" ... I can't be sure I'm understanding you correctly, you know, whether that was your intent by those words.

When you write, "Most transactions are negotiable and PayPal fees and Shipping costs are usually negotiated. Nobody on the Cafe is trying to screw anybody else, in my experience." You may be correct, and those are pretty broad generalizations.

What I'm saying is not hypothetical: Folk sometimes write in their classified ads, "Buyer covers PayPal fees." If their intent at the outset is to charge the buyer a fee on top of their asking price in order to avoid paying PayPal fees out of their gross receipts, then they are in violation of their agreement with PayPal in my estimation, and I do not see that as "throwing down an absolute." Their agreement with PayPal is either done in good faith or it is not ... or perhaps they violate unwittingly ... in which case this post and any discussion of it may be of good service.

[Dacraw54]

PayPal provides the Family and Friends option - perhaps you should put your argument to them and ask why they are forgoing all those fees when they are so deserving of skimming a few bucks off the top. Aren’t we all really ‘family’ here?

[darrylicshon]

Most items I sell I offer free shipping, just what I am asking for, I eat all fees , that's the way I like to sell my items, definitely not fair to ask for the buyer to pay PayPal fees

[Ryk Loske]

The Seller doesn’t get any ‘convenience’ from using PayPal - having the money immediately available isn’t that convenient when it really can’t be spent until after the Approval period after the buyer receives the instrument The buyer gets PayPal’s buyer’s guarantee, a safe way of tracking the transaction, and a way to get his money back. If you’re not sure of a buyer, then that is worth upfronting 3%. Sending a check or a bank check puts you at the Sellers discretion - although with the added Security checks Scott provides that isn’t really an issue, as is using PayPal’s Friends and Family feature to reduce the overhead to the Seller. Most transactions are negotiable and PayPal fees and Shipping costs are usually negotiated. Nobody on the Cafe is trying to screw anybody else, in my experience. All transactions are Mano-A-Mano and throwing down ‘absolutes’ in hypothetical situations does not foster harmony.

If you have used PayPal you have read and agreed to the way Pay Pal operates. If you won't honor that agreement what is there to make a seller comfortable purchasing from you. Read the agreement.
Ryk

[Mark Gunter]

PayPal provides the Family and Friends option - perhaps you should put your argument to them and ask why they are forgoing all those fees when they are so deserving of skimming a few bucks off the top. Aren’t we all really ‘family’ here?

I would suggest, my friend - and I don't write that lightly; you're a fellow cafe member and I take your intentions in good faith - I would suggest that you yourself write PayPal and ask the question you are confused on there. It is not a question on my mind at all. The friends and family option is covered, as it relates to seller transactions, in the quote I made from PayPal. You can also find policy about it from mandolincafe in the Classified's guidelines - no protection in this forum when you do that.

[Ryk Loske]

PayPal provides the Family and Friends option - perhaps you should put your argument to them and ask why they are forgoing all those fees when they are so deserving of skimming a few bucks off the top. Aren’t we all really ‘family’ here?

The Yoga Cafe??? That's a stretch!

Ryk

[Dacraw54]

If you have used PayPal you have read and agreed to the way Pay Pal operates. If you won't honor that agreement what is there to make a seller comfortable purchasing from you. Read the agreement.
Ryk
I merely offer all legit PayPal Options. Using Friends and Family option bypasses the fee, it does not pass it on to the buyer. Everything is up front in my transactions and I offer a Refund unless the buyer is 100% satisfied with the transaction.

[Dacraw54]

I would suggest, my friend - and I don't write that lightly; you're a fellow cafe member and I take your intentions in good faith - I would suggest that you yourself write PayPal and ask the question you are confused on there. It is not a question on my mind at all. The friends and family option is covered, as it relates to seller transactions, in the quote I made from PayPal. You can also find policy about it from mandolincafe in the Classified's guidelines - no protection in this forum when you do that.

Great, then there’s no confusion then.

[Mark Gunter]

No intention of dogpiling here, this discussion should be civil, and yes can be considered a family matter if you like.

I've been using PP for seller transactions for many years. My understanding of 'Family & Friends' option is that it is for giving or moving money between family and friends for other purposes than business purposes - it is not an option for sales or purchases covered by any purchaser or merchants protections.

Sometimes, family members and friends engage in business - which is kept separate from familial or fraternal relationships by the wise.

[colorado_al]

I used to ask the buyer to pay the PayPal fee and shipping fee on top of the listed price of the item. Now I just price my item 5% higher. Buyer still pays, but it is not an added cost, it is included in the asking price.

[Mark Gunter]

I used to ask the buyer to pay the PayPal fees on top of the listed price of the item. Now I just price my item 3% higher. Buyer still pays, but it is not an added cost, it is included in the asking price.

Business 101

[Dacraw54]

Business 101

And since the price is negotiable that will be the first item discussed... then shipping and insurance.

[colorado_al]

PS- most used instrument prices are negotiable. If a buyer offers you a price that is too low for you to get what you want, make a counter offer. This isn't rocket surgery.

[Jeff Mando]

Nothing really new here.......I remember vintage dealers 30 years ago charging 3 percent extra if you used your American Express credit card (always known for charging businesses higher rates).......long before the internet. Very common practice. Probably not fair, but back then you did what you needed to do, if someone had an instrument you were interested in. Sometimes you have to deal with some "slick" characters, IMHO.

Conversely, many stores including Mandolin Brothers, listed discounted prices for cash.....

[DHopkins]

"Friends & Family" is for transferring cash with no product involved. They don't charge a fee because there's no delivery guarantee and no product quality guarantee. They use established banking procedures with virtually no risk of having to return someone's payment.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Not worth worrying about. It's all a shuck, since most asking prices are negotiable. When they post an instrument for $1,500 or best offer plus shipping, Paypal fees, and 2% to Mando Cafe, it just means that part of whatever you end up paying is going to those fees.

The "or best offer" pretty much cancels out any jive about who pays the various related costs. You pay what the seller says yes to, and the seller parses it any way the seller pleases.

[fscotte]

Really depends on what youre buying and from whom youre buying it. If youre buying a $2500 mando from a dealer, then yes I understand the frustration of the seller asking the buyer to pay the paypal fee. But if youre buying a mando from a 1 man band luthier who is only making 30% on his builds, then the buyer paying the paypal fees may be appropriate and the kind thing to do.

[Paul Busman]

For my whistles I ask customers for a check (in the US only). If they ask about PayPal I'll tell them that that's OK, but Pay Pal charges me 3% that I'd just as soon keep. I don't charge them for the 3%. Some add it,some don't and I'm OK with it either way. I don't think that this is against the TOS although it's perhaps a grey area.

[fatt-dad]

words like, "Firm," "No-Lowball," or "Cover PayPal fees" receive zero further consideration from me. It creates an intended wall from person-to-person discussions. Anybody that feels the need to start off that way has limited me as a buyer.

I don't get mad; however. I got instruments to play either way!

f-d

[multidon]

I agree that, as a seller, if you use PayPal, you should abide by your user agreement. Calling us all family here is a real stretch. And using Friends and Family as an option is not meant for buying and selling merchandise, and we all know it. If you have to raise the price to cover your fees, knock yourself out, that’s preferable to saying “buyer pays fees” which violates the rules. The results are the same, so just do it that way if you must.

I also am kind of put off by ads that say “firm” since that shuts down all negotiations, but I have said “no lowballs “ myself. I just don’t want my time wasted by someone who tries to prey on me and swoop in to offer 50 percent of what we both know it’s worth. Another thing that annoys me is people giving different reasons for selling. If you say something like “selling because the tax man come-eth” or “my kids are off to college” makes you sound desperate and that’s an invitation to all the bottom feeders looking for a flipping opportunity. So to me that’s just insulting and of course I ignore them, but they waste my time, which is of value to me.

I have only done a few ads, but when I do I try to keep it simple. No sob stories. I have this instrument. I don’t want it anymore. I would like it to go to someone who does want it. I would like to get a fair price for it if it meets your needs. And I mean fair for both parties. I try to price in shipping and fees and just say here is the price, right to your door. Of course I am willing to listen to reasonable offers. What is that, you say? We all know it when we see it. If I’m selling for 1000 asking price, and someone offers 900, that’s reasonable. I might make a counter offer of 950 and we might settle at 925. That’s what reasonable people do. If someone offers me 500, that’s unreasonable. Like Rick on Pawn Stars says, “We’re too far apart man. We just aren’t going to be able to make a deal today!”

So I do say “no lowballs”. I don’t think that’s asking too much. If that causes you to take a pass on my ad, so be it. I value my time and I value my sanity.

[Stephen Perry]

I seriously doubt most people actually read the user agreement, or remember it more than 10 minutes.

[Ryk Loske]

Relative to the "firm" question. (I have an ad in now with that dreaded ... by some ... word.) Firm tells the prospective buyer that that is the price. I can appreciate that some folks want to dicker and i'll play that game myself at times. On an expensive item, like the one i'm offering, i could pad the price and play the game ... or ... by letting folks know what i want for the item they can save themselves the trouble and at the same time know that they could not have gotten it any less expensively. I very much try to treat others the way i would like to be treated. If the item doesn't sell at this go-round perhaps it will next time. It ain't gonna rot.
Ryk

[Dacraw54]

Relative to the "firm" question. (I have an ad in now with that dreaded ... by some ... word.) Firm tells the prospective buyer that that is the price. I can appreciate that some folks want to dicker and i'll play that game myself at times. On an expensive item, like the one i'm offering, i could pad the price and play the game ... or ... by letting folks know what i want for the item they can save themselves the trouble and at the same time know that they could not have gotten it any less expensively. I very much try to treat others the way i would like to be treated. If the item doesn't sell at this go-round perhaps it will next time. It ain't gonna rot.
Ryk

" Price is firm at $xxx which includes shipping within US, Pay Pal fees and donation to the Café "
.
.
"If you have used PayPal you have read and agreed to the way Pay Pal operates. If you won't honor that agreement what is there to make a seller comfortable purchasing from you. Read the agreement.
Ryk"

You are violating both the letter and the spirit of your Paypal Agreement by charging the Buyer your Paypal Fees.

[Mark Gunter]

You are violating both the letter and the spirit of your Paypal Agreement by charging the Buyer your Paypal Fees.

He is quoting a firm price, and telling the buyer that the price already includes all this overhead. That is not a violation of PayPal agreement. It may not be a very good sales pitch, but it's not a violation. Buyers should assume that a seller covers his costs and makes a profit, hopefully. Buyers don't need to know what a seller is doing with the money he collects. But telling a seller that "I'm going to pay all these fees and donations with some of the money" does not violate the agreement.

Quoting a lower price, and then telling the user that if they use PayPal there will be an additional fee above the quoted price simply because they are using PayPal is what violates the agreement.

[Ryk Loske]

" Price is firm at $xxx which includes shipping within US, Pay Pal fees and donation to the Café "
.
.
"If you have used PayPal you have read and agreed to the way Pay Pal operates. If you won't honor that agreement what is there to make a seller comfortable purchasing from you. Read the agreement.
Ryk"

"You are violating both the letter and the spirit of your Paypal Agreement by charging the Buyer your Paypal Fees." Decraw54

It could be read that way, and given your stance on the subject i doubt you could read it any other way. Or you could read it the way i understand my agreement with Pay Pal: I absorb the Pay Pal fees and will gladly contribute to the Cafe.

I'm done here,

Ryk

[Dacraw54]

Semantics.

[mrmando]

One can do some simple math. If the price you will accept is x, then (x + 0.294)/0.95158 is the price you should charge. Both the PayPal fee and the Cafe donation are built into that equation. Easy peasy.

If people ask me to reduce a price, I tell them I'll give them a break on shipping if they'll pay with a cashier's check or money order. (Not on Cafe transactions, since Homie don't play that.) That way, part of what I give up on the price is offset by not having to pay the PayPal fee.

[Dacraw54]

In other words being upfront and stating your breakdown of price is unacceptable but hiding your breakdown is acceptable. Much ado about nothing.

[DHopkins]

I have to agree with multidon. The "family" thing is a bit of a stretch. This gene pool probably needs a little more chlorine, anyway.

But, if one is going to use PayPal and take advantage of the protections it provides, they should follow the rules.

[dhergert]

I'm not a seller at all, and in fact I do mostly in-person purchases nowadays anyway...

But as a potential buyer from online places like Cafe or CL or EB, I hate online price haggling, it's too fraught with delays and misunderstandings. I'd like to know when a person names their price online, that's what they need to get, period. That way I have a firm understanding of what I need in order to purchase.

So, I guess I'm coming out in favor of firm, no-negotiations online pricing, however a person wants to word that. "Or best offer" type of sales always leave me wondering what the real story is.

I guess it takes all kinds...

[Dacraw54]

I hear you, Don. OBO just seems to mean disregard the price I'm asking. I also dislike ads that ask for bids/offers cold. If I want to bid I'll use an auction site where the bids are tracked fairly and are visible.

[Br1ck]

The asking for seller to pay fees is something that has me moving on fast. No picture does that too. Or how about no price at all? Move on.

And pricing something higher than you will take gets me loosing interest fast too. I want to see your best fair price, go that's reasonable, and pay it. I have no need to think I got a hundred bucks off your hundred dollar overpriced offering. I have no problem with firm. That just says don't waste either of our time. If it's too much, it will sit there. I also tend to stay away from you horse traders flipping instruments. I'd rather pay the price from a dealer who wants my repeat business.

I don't mind the stories. MAS commeth is as good a reason to sell as any. And saying you bought that old Gibson, fixed the cracks, and did a refret is something I'd like to know and reward. But I wonder about those 2017 mandolins being sold. That bad you're taking a thousand dollar bath? Of course some have third stage MAS, others just a mild cold.

In the end, it's up to the seller to do what they want, and the buyer to act accordingly.

[sgarrity]

It's all a semantics game. You can offer a cash discount but you can't "charge" PayPal fees. It's one thing if you're a business but most people on the Cafe are just occasionally selling their personal items. I negotiate everything and have rarely done a transaction where I did not speak to the other party on the phone. But I'm mostly out of the buying/selling game. I have what I want and MAS has been in remission for quite some time now!

[Stephen Perry]

In general, "semantics" constitute the constitutions or other foundational papers underlying today's world. In specific, semantics constitute contracts, whether under the UCC as enacted in various jurisdictions or other (including common) contract law. That is precisely what we are dealing with here. The contract with PayPal indicates one cannot do a certain thing. Whether that makes sense entirely from a non-contract perspective proves immaterial.

Another example we run into is the notorious "MAP" pricing model. Personally, I can't see how SCOTUS lets this stand, but it's not my call. So I can advertise "list" of $2000 with an "or offer" - which indicates that's not the real price. Or I can advertise "MAP" of $1600. But not with "or make offer." So a buyer can see this and go "ah ha!" and offer $1400. The seller responds with "1500 including shipping." And the seller's agreement with the supplier is not violated.

The PayPal examples above fall into general mess.

So it's ALL a semantics game. Packaging. And I don't believe anyone likes it. Not liking it doesn't mean that it isn't a realistic way of handling issues among various contracting parties.

Tide may be turning. For those interested, entities wishing to enforce their will on merchants may well be pushed back a little, if the American Express anti-trust action is any hint.

[Roger Moss]

I hear you, Don. OBO just seems to mean disregard the price I'm asking. I also dislike ads that ask for bids/offers cold. If I want to bid I'll use an auction site where the bids are tracked fairly and are visible.

I always translated OBO as meaning "I tried to get this price, but nobody wanted to pay that much, so I'll take as close to that as I can get."

[mrmando]

In other words being upfront and stating your breakdown of price is unacceptable but hiding your breakdown is acceptable. Much ado about nothing.

If you want to know how much your seller will pay in PayPal fees and Cafe donations, you can always do the equation in reverse.

[Josh Levine]

We've had this conversation before, but I will say my piece anyways... I am not a merchant, however, I have bought and solid many mandolins over the last several years using these classifieds. I would not say this is a profitable endeavor. I have a job and look for opportunities to try mandolins out so have done the caught and release thing. So, to suggest that a profit is built into my sale is not a accurate assumption. At times I have made some money and at times lost money. I am not a business man. When I buy a mandolin I factor in what it is, the condition, and the price it will cost me. Then, based on several factors decide if it is something I want to acquire. The last thing I would factor in is if the seller wrote something about Paypal or if the price is firm in the add. That is not enough information for me to judge the character of a person or their trustworthiness. My loyalty is to the person I am interacting with and my perception of their trustworthiness, not the Ebay corporation or whoever owns them. I am not going to throw the Paypal terms of service at them at tell them that is how we must do business and if that means somebody doesn't want to buy a mandolin from me because the way I word an add does not strictly adhere to their terms of service, so be it. If we choose to use Paypal as a medium for transferring money with the protections built in that they offer I gladly pay the fee as is evidenced by my years of positive interactions with that company. I have never had to dispute a transaction or done anything to have any negative feedback on my account. If I am buying something I almost always use Paypal and they get their cut. I would hate to limit myself or not get something that I wanted at a price that I wanted because somebody wrote an add a certain way or did not full understand Paypal's terms of services. I get their protections from using them and in return they get alot of my money, I do not need to draw a line in the sand around somebodies crafting of an add. Different strokes, so if that is where you draw the line, fine.

And in the past I have written firm for pricing and I will probably do it again. It is up front and I think the prices I list are typically pretty fair/based on my understanding of the market. If somebody agrees and wants the item great. Sometimes I'll give a little, but I try to price items fairly. And I think if writing firm takes the human interaction element out of a deal, citing Paypal's terms of services does just the same.

On top of all this in the Cafe classifieds you can see how many adds and how many responses to adds people have made... if that number is high and they are still around you can probably assume that they conduct themselves in an honorable and appropriate way.

[dan in va]

The notion that PayPal wants my credit card # and settle potential disputes their way doesn't suit me at all. i simply don't buy anything when a seller insists on PayPal. Besides, i would rather the seller get the full amount.

[Dacraw54]

Sellers don't insist on Payal, at least I don't. It's only offered as a convenience for the Buyer. Seller's don't get any value from using Paypal directly.

[Mandobar]

I seriously doubt most people actually read the user agreement, or remember it more than 10 minutes.

Absolutely, and there are many merchants who don't read their merchant agreements also (and have never read them). However, I do remember several well known businesses that stated one price for cash and one for credit purchases.

PayPal does not necessarily give immediate credit for all transactions. Based on certain criteria, they will hold funds for up to 21 days. I bought a ukulele a few years back and the seller waited until the funds became available to him to ship the instrument. I've gladly paid the fees, and extra for shipping if I wanted an item, and I think this is key here: Do you want the item? The seller sets the terms, not the buyer. You can haggle, but they can always say no. They have the item.

[dan in va]

Hi Dacraw54. Actually, there have been quite a number of ad's that have said PayPal only, in the classifieds, Ebay, Reverb, etc. It's not a high percentage, tho. And some of that stuff i would've bought...sometimes i've been relieved to see that's the only form of payment accepted.

[Dacraw54]

I know EBay only allows PayPal, anything else is a scam on EBay. Reverb have their own payment system that interfaces with PayPal. I’m not aware of any sellers on the Cafe specifying PayPal only.
The only real advantage to Sellers allowing PayPal is that PayPal lets buyers use a Credit Card for the purchase which casual Sellers would not be able to process themselves. Unfortunately all PayPal fees are passed on to the Seller. The cost of doing business...

[108 Mile]

I think it was Lambo who said
“ Buy the seller”

[rcc56]

"Buyer decides to buy from someone else instead . . ."

[LadysSolo]

I merely offer all legit PayPal Options. Using Friends and Family option bypasses the fee, it does not pass it on to the buyer. Everything is up front in my transactions and I offer a Refund unless the buyer is 100% satisfied with the transaction.

Wrong - Friends and Family DEFINITELY passes the fee to the buyer if the buyer has their PayPal account tied to a credit card versus having the money taken out of their savings or checking account. How do I know this? I have my PayPal account tied to a credit card, and someone asked me to do "Friends and Family" and I got hit with the fee.

[Josh Levine]

Wrong - Friends and Family DEFINITELY passes the fee to the buyer if the buyer has their PayPal account tied to a credit card versus having the money taken out of their savings or checking account. How do I know this? I have my PayPal account tied to a credit card, and someone asked me to do "Friends and Family" and I got hit with the fee.

Guessing that was the fee for using a credit card, which would be in addition to the fee used if you were not using friends and family.

[mandolin breeze]

PayPal is not the only game in town anymore. Of instance, most every bank now accepts Zelle, which provides quick, free and easy transfers from bank to bank at no cost. They have more important priorities than worrying if you're dealing with friends and family or the boogie man. In that regard, I personally think PayPal has a flawed business model and they may suffer for it. There are also several other popular $$$ transfer options available, but Zelle is partnering with the banks very fast. No need for PayPal at all actually.

[Josh Levine]

PayPal is not the only game in town anymore. Of instance, most every bank now accepts Zelle, which provides quick, free and easy transfers from bank to bank at no cost. They have more important priorities than worrying if you're dealing with friends and family or the boogie man. In that regard, I personally think PayPal has a flawed business model and they may suffer for it. There are also several other popular $$$ transfer options available, but Zelle is partnering with the banks very fast. No need for PayPal at all actually.

What does Zelle do if the person you are buying from ends up trying to scam you and steal your money or the product is damaged or not as advertised? Sure there are plenty of transfer options that are free but they do not provide any recourse if you need to get your money back. That is part of why you pay the fee for Paypal.

[DHopkins]

...I personally think PayPal has a flawed business model and they may suffer for it.

Almost $11 Billion profit last year. I should have such a flawed business model.

[mandolin breeze]

We're talking about doing business here on the Cafe, and that fact alone is a big fact to be considered here. The vast vast majority of transactions here among the MC family go off without a hitch. There of course would be all the standard recourse / consumer protection that the applicable Fed. banking and commerce laws provide.

Until very recently, PayPal was essentially the only game in town. Of course that gave rise to the competition. One of which is successfully integrating with the popular banks nationwide. This growing competition and partnership with Zelle and banks has only recently begun, it's still in it's infancy and is growing fast. We'll see if PayPal has the current business model to continue it's dominance, or will they be forced to adopt certain policies. Who knows, but competition is always the driving force and the consumer is always the beneficiary.

[Dacraw54]

[UOTE=LadysSolo;1663632]Wrong - Friends and Family DEFINITELY passes the fee to the buyer if the buyer has their PayPal account tied to a credit card versus having the money taken out of their savings or checking account. How do I know this? I have my PayPal account tied to a credit card, and someone asked me to do "Friends and Family" and I got hit with the fee.[/QUOTE]

As long as the buyer has their Bank Account tied to Paypal, or has money in their Paypal account then there is no fee - so why pay Paypal a fee when they are not supplying the cash, just for a guarantee that is not needed on the Cafe. If the buyer is using a Credit Card in Paypal that's going to have a fee, God only knows who gets it, but it should be the buyers responsibility since it is the Buyer that is getting Credit. Just my opinion.

[G7MOF]

Using Paypal Friends and family doesn't give you the power to retrieve any payment for any item. F and F is a gift not a payment for goods method.

[Mandobar]

Wrong - Friends and Family DEFINITELY passes the fee to the buyer if the buyer has their PayPal account tied to a credit card versus having the money taken out of their savings or checking account. How do I know this? I have my PayPal account tied to a credit card, and someone asked me to do "Friends and Family" and I got hit with the fee.

Any time you advance monies off a credit card, it is considered a cash advance and would entail fees. Friends and Family assumes that you are sending cash to someone. If you were the buyer in this transaction then PayPal assumed you were advancing cash off your card to a family member, friend, etc. Hence the fees to you.

[fscotte]

Friends and family pay with cash or check. ;)

[soliver]

I'd like to chime in because I am guilty of this offense, ...unwittingly guilty, but guilty no less. Please take this confession as an explanation, not an excuse, as it is my intent to explain why I have done this, not to beg your pardon so I can continue to do it, because I plan to stop. And please read with tongue in cheek...

A few have alluded to the all to true fact of our contract heavy existence; practically every purchase or service these days requires signing a contract, many of which we do not read because if we did, we would spend more time reading contracts than utilizing the services for which they exist. The reality of this is made bare by reports now that companies are burying ridiculous and funny terms in these contracts. Just for fun read this: https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/10-ridiculous-eula-clauses-agreed/ ... I particularly like that Amazon discusses the use of Lumber yards during a Zombie apocalypse or that iTunes is not to be used in the manufacture of Nuclear Weapons...

So herein is my point, the masses who use PayPal for selling Goods and Services (like me) most likely have not read their contract and therefore don't realize that it violates the contract to tack additional cost onto the purchase to cover the PayPal fees. While what I sell doesn't cost much, resulting in fees under $2 per purchase, it still eats into the profit margin, making me less money, therefore contributing to a slower fix to my MAS problem..... Again, this is MY explanation not an excuse... keep reading.

So that combined with the "monkey see monkey do" nature of mankind (ironic isn't it), when I see other's listing items for sale with the "Buyer covers PayPal fees" tag, I tell myself that this is an acceptable practice. So here I am in the place where I honestly had absolutely NO idea that people took issue with this.

I would venture to guess that 95+% of my business comes through the MC Classifieds. The only reason I have gotten into production and selling as I do here is because, in spite of the fact that I love my job, it doesn't afford me much in the world of "disposable income." That said, selling on the MC Classifieds is money that I raise strictly to support my Mandolin related purchases. Outside of the way this site builds up and supports the Mandolin Community, I am thankful for this site for the way it supports my ability to participate in spite of my financial restrictions.

I like to think of myself as a man of integrity and I hope that others would too... so what's the upshot? I'd like to say thank you Mark for pointing out to me that I have been violating my agreement with PayPal, and thank you to those of you who have made me aware that this is a deal breaker for you. As stated previously, I had completely NO IDEA that this was a issue! So from this point forward I will no longer be tacking PayPal fees onto the prices of what I sell.

To Moderators: If I have violated any forum rules with the above post, please let me know and I'll gladly modify in kind.

I think I'll go use my iTunes account to create some Nuclear Weapons now and incite a Zombie Apocalypse to void my Amazon contract.

[Ryk Loske]

Spencer,
Great post. I'd like to echo your appreciation for the Cafe and all the ways it supports the community. Scott had put up a long post some time ago addressing some of the issues in this thread. In the post he pointed out the safety of properly using the classifieds to both the buyer and seller. The whole darn thing is just a thing of beauty because of the thought and care that he and others have put in. I'd much sooner use the classifieds here to buy or sell musical merchandise than anyplace else for the work that has been done.
Ryk

[NursingDaBlues]

So from this point forward I will no longer be tacking PayPal fees onto the prices of what I sell.

For what it’s worth…

It is not illegal, immoral, or fattening to include PayPal fees in your selling price.

The issue is having two different prices: a cash price, and then another higher price if PayPal is used.

Some folks may remember establishments that offered discounts for cash. If you do, you will probably also remember establishments who promoted “Same Price, Cash or Credit.” Not only did credit card companies frown on establishments overtly appearing to penalize customers who wanted to use a credit card, smart establishments recognized that credit card customers would and could increase their sales volume because of the convenience. So, most establishments added the credit card fees to their cost of doing business.

Retailers must cover their costs of doing business in their gross profit. (Gross profit is the difference between what the retailer paid for an item and the price that the retailer will sell that item.) The costs of doing business include wages, utilities, advertising, rent, in-bound freight, credit card fees, insurance, etc. What’s left over after the costs of doing business are paid is net profit. Net profit is what the business owner gets to put in his/her pocket.

PayPal can be considered a cost of doing business. In this case, a private seller needs to determine what kind of profit he/she wants or needs. If the private seller wants the added convenience and security of PayPal, then he/she should factor that cost into selling price. So, someone who pays cash will pay the same amount as someone who uses PayPal. There is parity. And that’s all that is expected.

Just a couple of side notes:
A. No two businesses are alike. Each business has different costs of doing business. The greater the costs of doing business, the more a retailer must charge; the fewer the costs, the less the retailer must charge.
B. If an owner is okay living on less net profit, then he/she can play with the price if a customer is trying to negotiate it lower.
C. Charging for shipping to a customer, while not a given, is relatively commonplace regardless of the industry. If you want to give away shipping to secure a sale, remember that it’s coming out of your gross profit. So, you may want to include a “promotional budget” in your cost of doing business that can fund or partially fund shipping charges. But just remember points “A” and “B” above.
D. If you manufacture something that is sold direct to a customer, the same rules apply. It’s just that the cost of the product should include the raw materials, the labor to produce it, and its own cost of business (utilities, wages, etc.) in its production. Then you should develop a selling price that provides a gross profit that covers the cost of doing business in its sale.
E. All that being said, it’s your product. You can sell an item for how little or how much you want. Just ensure that the price remains the same no matter what form of payment you take.

[WoodyCTA102]

As long as I get a fair amount for something I'm selling, I don't mind picking up PayPal fees. I usually price whatever I'm selling -- mandolin, guitar, recording equipment, etc. -- to do that. If offered another price that I think is fair, I'll still cover PayPal fees. I like the way PayPal works.

Now, if someone lowballs or keeps asking for concessions, it's time to either say, "No Thanks," or come back with, "OK, but you have to increase price to cover PayPal fees at that offer." Prefer to charge actual shipping cost. I usually come up with a quick estimate when I find where potential buyer lives and offer a refund if it actually runs less.

Truthfully, if I'm selling something for $2,000 or more, I'm not usually going to quibble over 5% or so unless the potential buyer keeps asking for concessions.

[Stephen Perry]

Re Sioliver: " few have alluded to the all to true fact of our contract heavy existence; practically every purchase or service these days requires signing a contract, many of which we do not read because if we did, we would spend more time reading contracts than utilizing the services for which they exist."

There's always a contract, whether written or not. Where no specific terms are provided by the parties, default rules come into play. Sometimes people don't like these default rules (e.g., the UCC) and the remedies they provide.

"I like to think of myself as a man of integrity and I hope that others would too" - That's what we seek. When things go amiss, people tend to look to evidence and facts, rather than reputation and intent. Just the way things work.

Re NursingDaBlues: "
Some folks may remember establishments that offered discounts for cash." While the same in effect, a discount shows up differently under the law. I recall a SCOTUS consideration of this in 2017, which might have been remanded. Those interested can no doubt find the opinion.


While much discussion on such matters seems to only be semantics, semantics starts wars and keeps attorneys in business.

[Mark Gunter]

While much discussion on such matters seems to only be semantics, semantics starts wars and keeps attorneys in business.

The difference can be characterized as simply semantics, as has been done here by some. But in reality, it is also a matter of accounting, and a matter of contractual obligation. The analogy that NursingDaBlues makes between credit card companies and PayPal is spot on, he has explained the reasoning behind why the contract is done this way. PayPal frowns on sellers giving the appearance of penalizing a PayPal user. "This is my price, but if you pay with PayPal, there will be an additional fee." This is not good business. The SELLER is collecting the money, so the seller pays the fee. Collect enough money to pay the fee, and don't bother your customer with add-ons for using our payment gateway. It's that simple.

"But I think PayPal sucks and they don't deserve a fee from me." - Then maybe you shouldn't use PayPal
"PayPal is not a convenience to the seller." - Then maybe you shouldn't offer PayPal
"Well, PayPal sucks, and PayPal is not a convenience for the seller, but I have my reasons for using it, and I'll use it anyway, and look for ways to avoid the fees, or charge the customer extra to cover the fees, I don't care about the contract. In my opinion it's all semantics, so why should I care?" - Okay, it's a free country, knock yourself out


It is not illegal, immoral, or fattening to include PayPal fees in your selling price.

The issue is having two different prices: a cash price, and then another higher price if PayPal is used.

...

Not only did credit card companies frown on establishments overtly appearing to penalize customers who wanted to use a credit card, smart establishments recognized that credit card customers would and could increase their sales volume because of the convenience. So, most establishments added the credit card fees to their cost of doing business.

...

All that being said, it’s your product. You can sell an item for how little or how much you want. Just ensure that the price remains the same no matter what form of payment you take.

The fact that Spencer didn't know what the agreement is, and has learned something from this thread, makes the thread and the topic worthwhile in my estimation. Maybe it can help others as well.

[Chris Daniels]

...so why pay Paypal a fee when they are not supplying the cash, just for a guarantee that is not needed on the Cafe.

You've stated the bolded concept a couple of times in this thread, and I mean no disrespect to Scott or the fantastic classified service he provides, but what guarantee does the Cafe offer that makes outside buyer protection unnecessary? The previous owner of my Mandobird requested a cashier's check via the postal service, which I sent with some small apprehension although the deal was worth the risk. I did my due diligence in communicating with the seller prior to sending the check, but what could the Cafe have done if I'd never received the mandolin?

Sure, the seller's account is linked to a email address and an (unverified) address is required when posting a classified listing, but other than trying to badger the seller and/or ban the account I'm not sure what other recourse this site would have. So caveat emptor. While I'm not a fan of PP's business practices, the security and convenience both as buyer and seller when not using "F&F" is worth the admittedly small fee.

Edit: a "small fee" I have only once negotiated as a buyer to split because of an instrument I really wanted, but otherwise the "buyer pays PayPal fees" is a no-go for me. The fee was built into the price of anything sold here or elsewhere.

C.

[Dacraw54]

You've stated the bolded concept a couple of times in this thread, and I mean no disrespect to Scott or the fantastic classified service he provides, but what guarantee does the Cafe offer that makes outside buyer protection unnecessary? The previous owner of my Mandobird requested a cashier's check via the postal service, which I sent with some small apprehension although the deal was worth the risk. I did my due diligence in communicating with the seller prior to sending the check, but what could the Cafe have done if I'd never received the mandolin?

Sure, the seller's account is linked to a email address and an (unverified) address is required when posting a classified listing, but other than trying to badger the seller and/or ban the account I'm not sure what other recourse this site would have. So caveat emptor. While I'm not a fan of PP's business practices, the security and convenience both as buyer and seller when not using "F&F" is worth the admittedly small fee.

Edit: a "small fee" I have only once negotiated as a buyer to split because of an instrument I really wanted, but otherwise the "buyer pays PayPal fees" is a no-go for me. The fee was built into the price of anything sold here or elsewhere.

C.

I don’t think so, at least I can’t find multiple references. What I have said is that there is no advantage for the Seller using PayPal. The Buyer gets the guarantees that I think are not necessary on this site. The real advantage of PayPal is that a Credit Card can be used for a purchase from an individual seller who would not be able to process a Credit Card payment and this type of fee should be covered by the person getting the credit. Just my opinion.

Are you advocating PayPal used on every transaction? Do you really want to see this site gravitate towards an EBay-like model?

[Mandobar]

In allowing individuals (buyers) to use a credit card, it widens the market for sellers. Therefore, Paypal absolutely benefits sellers. Otherwise, as a seller, your market would be limited to those prospective buyers who had the actual cash to complete the purchase.

[Jeff Mando]

Ever hear of negotiating? I sold an Epiphone guitar to Guitar Center. I wanted $250 for it. I knew the salesman would knock the condition and play the game of sighting down the neck etc., so when he asked what I wanted for it I said $350. He then played the game of pretending to check online and then explained they would sell the guitar for $399 and he offered me $260 for it, which I accepted, which was $10 more than I expected. I DON"T CARE if it is a game being played, a fee, a tax, etc., as long as I get my money, right? Same with buying as selling -- if you get what you want at the price you want, there is nothing to complain about. No need to play "lawyer" and say "they can't do that!" There is another old adage in business -- we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone -- in other words if you are too much of a horse's patoot, they might just pull the plug on ya and sell it to somebody else who is easier to deal with. That's what I would do. Think about it, if a guy complains about procedures and payment details, he's gonna be the first guy to complain about a scratch not mentioned or a high fret, or action or tone, then want to send it back. Life is simple. Read between the lines. Look at the big picture......

[Austin Bob]

For what it’s worth…

It is not illegal, immoral, or fattening to include PayPal fees in your selling price.

The issue is having two different prices: a cash price, and then another higher price if PayPal is used.


Great post, and I agree with you, but I do have a "what if" question.

Let's say I have a mando I want $1000 for, and I'm unwilling to negotiate at all.

So I post an add, and plainly state that the price is FIRM, and that I will not accept PayPal.

You, on the other hand, want my mando, but for whatever reason, want to use PayPal to complete the transaction. So you contact me and state you'll pay the $1000, but you want to use PayPal.

If I counter that I'll take it, only if you add $30 for the PayPal fees, am I then being unethical? I know that technically, I'm in violation of the PayPal agreement, but to my mind, I'm being honest and upfront to the buyer.

Thoughts?

[Ryk Loske]

List for $1+++ to cover your desired price plus PayPal fees plus whatever amount you'll donate to the Cafe. Negotiate on shipping. If the buyer is going to hand you cash you can either go down the $30 or walk away with a bit more than you expected. I'd just assume PayPal given the way things seem to be done and not throw an additional fee to a prospective buyer. I personally want to see and know the price is the price is the price. Maybe that's just me.
Ryk

[Austin Bob]

List for $1+++ to cover your desired price plus PayPal fees plus whatever amount you'll donate to the Cafe. Negotiate on shipping. If the buyer is going to hand you cash you can either go down the $30 or walk away with a bit more than you expected. I'd just assume PayPal given the way things seem to be done and not throw an additional fee to a prospective buyer. I personally want to see and know the price is the price is the price. Maybe that's just me.
Ryk

In reality, I'd probably list it for $1,200, including freight. That way I could negotiate down to $1,100 and still have $50 for freight, $30 for PayPal, and $20 for the cafe (figures rounded).

But there are lots of people in this world who would rather have a root canal than negotiate a sale, because they think they'll always end up on the losing end.

[NursingDaBlues]

Great post, and I agree with you, but I do have a "what if" question.

Let's say I have a mando I want $1000 for, and I'm unwilling to negotiate at all.

So I post an add, and plainly state that the price is FIRM, and that I will not accept PayPal.

You, on the other hand, want my mando, but for whatever reason, want to use PayPal to complete the transaction. So you contact me and state you'll pay the $1000, but you want to use PayPal.

If I counter that I'll take it, only if you add $30 for the PayPal fees, am I then being unethical? I know that technically, I'm in violation of the PayPal agreement, but to my mind, I'm being honest and upfront to the buyer.

Thoughts?

I believe that you were quite explicit in your hypothetical ad. Price is firm and PayPal is not accepted. Some folks for some reason like to "push" in getting a concession of some sort. Then once one concession is obtained, for them the door is wide open to get more.

A polite but firm "I'm sorry but I don't take PayPal" should be all that you need to say.

Now if you have had the ad up for some time with no hits and you decide to go the PayPal route, simply take the ad down and then re-post with modified pricing and that PayPal is accepted.

This may occur to some to be overly simplistic, but that's how my mind works.

[Chris Daniels]

I don’t think so, at least I can’t find multiple references.

If you say so friend. Here's the first:


Sending a check or a bank check puts you at the Sellers discretion, although with the added Security checks Scott provides that isn’t really an issue...Nobody on the Cafe is trying to screw anybody else, in my experience.

The second was in my original quote, which is why I stated 'a couple times'. And now you just repeated it again.


The Buyer gets the guarantees that I think are not necessary on this site.

But regardless of whether it was written once or a hundred times or was from the POV of a buyer or seller, my question is simple: What is this 'guarantee' or 'security' you mention as being provided by the Cafe? From the Classified's own posting guidelines:

We will not intervene on your behalf in a transaction gone bad if PayPal Friends and Family was used as payment.




Are you advocating PayPal used on every transaction? Do you really want to see this site gravitate towards an EBay-like model?

Seriously? Nevermind. If this is how you interpreted my comments, there's no point in continuing this discussion. Have a nice day.

C.

[mandolin tony]

I would just like to say PayPal saved my ass last year when I bought a Pickering XSV-3000 cartridge with an original stylus for my turntable & it arrived damaged. I called the store that was selling it & they & the dummy that worked there said it could take up to six months to get my money after they got it back. long story made short I called up pay pal they toll me to return it & 3 to 5 days later I got my money back. I think pay pal is a great service. if you do not want to play ball by the rules get the hell off the field.

[Jeff Hildreth]

Easily resolved in my case.
I will NOT do business with PayPal and will not do business with anyone who does business with PAY PAL.

Simple.

Why..
PAY PAL attempted to defraud me and compromised me by lying to a retailer.

I finally got them, but it took months.

PAYPAL N E V E R.

As to your issue.

Tell him.. no deal.

Deals are like busses and girl friends, miss this one, another will come around.

Be prepared to walk away,.


From "fatt-dad"

..... "Firm," "No-Lowball," or "Cover PayPal fees" receive zero further consideration from me. It creates an intended wall from person-to-person discussions. Anybody that feels the need to start off that way has limited me as a buyer."

A complete turn-off and a deterrent to purchase.. ie color me "gone".

[j. condino]

A lot of the people who do business and transactions here on the cafe are small business owners. To us, paypal is just another accepted credit card type of transaction. I've been burned by paypal several times, but....they also open up a tremendous market of people for whom that is how they like to pay for things. I've gotten burned by paypal far less times than by people with personal checks. The instant someone advertises or wants to pay with a personal check, I walk away. I have not had a checking account with an actual checkbook in ten years.

I'll take your credit cards and paypal and applepay and bitcoin, trades for cars and motorcycles and old machines and all kinds of other things and offers, but no way a personal check. NO millennial is going to get you a US postal money order and mail it to a stranger on the internet- none! They are going to buy from someone else and pay with their phone using something that offers some kind of perceived security.

The banks and the taxman take 20% right off the top of every transaction- that hits the little guys hard. If you wanna meet in person out behind the truck stop with a big gangster roll of 20s and 100s, I'll gladly bring some backup and give you a cash discount. I regularly advertise a cash discount, because a certain portion of the population remember it from days past.

Carry on with, "You kids get off my lawn...."

[Jeff Mando]

Agreed. I've done a little over 8000 transactions and I've been burned by Paypal about one time in 1000 transactions. That's not bad and I consider that the price of doing business. Well worth it for the business it brings me, IMHO. $50-200 hits, I can eat. The $1000 ones sting a little more, but are still worth taking for the 999 sales that went well, which I mostly credit to selling nice merchandise and being honest with the descriptions. Some people get burnt once with Paypal and they are done. Those people are NOT in business, IMHO.......

[Russ Jordan]

I've been burned by paypal several times, but...."

Would you mind to give an example of how you were burned? Thanks

[Folkmusician.com]

I've received millions of dollars through PayPal over the past 20 years. I had an x.com account when it was first available. They are not seller friendly. That said, it has also been hugely responsible for my life as I know it. The same can be said for accepting credit cards through a merchant account.

For private parties, it is great! The fees are not that bad and it makes it so much easier to sell your personal instruments.

For dealers, it becomes a large chunk of profits. With the fees calculated by gross, that few percent can easily be 20%+ of your net. Dealer's know this, it is a cost of doing business, and it gets factored in. We are doing a fair volume of sales, and we are used to thin margins.

The group that this seems to hit the hardest are part-time sellers that are flipping instruments or selling at a low volume. Possibly doing it as a hobby. This is the business model that gets hit hard. To the point where it may not be profitable. They don't have the volume to absorb it. I don't think that circumventing the fees is the correct way to go here, but I do understand their situation. It's a tough way to earn a living! :)

[Jeff Hildreth]

For years folks did business without PAY PAL....

I got burned as customer, not as a seller. Burned by PAYPAL not the seller.
The seller was also burned by PAYPAL in the same transaction.
We both got on the phone in a conference call which we both would characterized as the adversary speaking "weasel words".
He was screwed and I was screwed. Don't need them.

As to "only" being burned 8 times.. 1 each per thousand transactions, that's 8 times too many.

I make stuff. I sell around the world. 21 countries plus USA and CANADA at last count. I do not use PAYPAL.
I accept cash, checks, money orders and credit cards via SQUARE.
I have never been burned... not once.


"With the fees calculated by gross, that few percent can easily be 20%+ of your net"

20% off net.. hmmm that would not be "net"... net is what you take to the bank after costs and expenses (fixed and semi-fixed)

I would guess that to be 20% off of gross profit (not gross or gross sales, but gross profit)

Gross profit being gross (or gross sales) minus costs (not expenses but costs)

FYI

[Folkmusician.com]

I should have been more clear. You are correct, that would no longer be net! haha. :)

I was factoring in expenses above and beyond COGS. My figure was meant to be downstream of GP.

[Seter]

I have a friend who works for Square, and so try to use Square when possible. Ebay is ditching PayPal for Adyen, which is what Netflix, Facebook, Etsy, etc already use for payment processing. All of my instrument selling though has been through craigslist, and I just deal in cash to make to make things simple.

[Mandobar]

Paypal was originally designed for the layman to use, not businesses. It has gotten extremely complicated with all the additional users, technical support, etc. They've had quite a few lawsuits, user squabbles, etc. Their fees and the bevy of rules that govern its use have changed significantly. Bigger is not always better.

[Jeff Mando]

Let me clarify.......here is how I define "being burned." The customer wants to return something without just cause, but he knows Paypal will always side with him, so he files a claim and sure enough, Paypal gives him a refund -- right out of my account. OK, I knew it was going to happen, no surprises. MY GRIPE is that I am buying and selling TO MAKE A PROFIT. Just for example, let's say I bought a guitar for $500 and sold it for $800, if you take off the eBay and Paypal fees, I make about $200 give or take. Once I take the return, I have now paid FULL RETAIL for the guitar -- something no businessman would EVER do. Now, making a profit is out of the question, all I can hope for is to relist it and maybe get most of my money back. The chances of it bidding higher the SECOND time around are almost zero, in my experience. So, I would never actually lose all my money, but I would lose the potential for profit, due to a nuisance buyer. Certainly not the end of the world, but once a sale is completed, I'm ready to move on to the next sale, NOT participate in a do-over!

[Jeff Hildreth]

What's missing..?

$800 minus the $100 fees. .. $700..

$500 was paid for the instrument

The instrument is an asset and it can now be resold.

It now has a cost of $600.

Where did you lose the $200?

That is a paper loss and not an actual monetary loss.

If the instrument is sold at $800 the profit is $200 ( which was never "lost")

If sold at $800 the gross profit is $200 or 25% Gross Profit. . not bad, not great, but still a profit..

Yes I realize there are a few bucks in fees but nowhere near the mythical vaporized $200 .

Please point out the error in my analysis.

All of this also illustrates why I think e-bay and pay pal suck..
Try Craigs List.

[DHopkins]

All of this also illustrates why I think e-bay and pay pal suck..
Try Craigs List.

In many cases, that's true but there are other areas where eBay can help. I'm also a ham radio operator and I can find certain electronic parts that aren't available locally. I can order a new wireless charger or USB plugs and adapters for my cell phone, etc. It all involves careful shopping.

[Mark Gunter]

The few times over the years that I've refunded a buyer's payment through PayPal, the PayPal fees are also refunded from PayPal into my account. If I were to have to refund someone their money after 30 days (never happened), then I would have to eat the fees; otherwise, they are refunded from PayPal.

I can see how Jeff Mando can lose on a transaction like that, though. If you figure costs that are difficult to place a dollar amount on - like the hassle of dealing with the shipping costs and all logistics of a sale gone bad, and the logistics of "restocking" and "reselling" an item like a musical instrument, a gross profit of $200 or so on a second sale is hardly worth all the hassle.

[Dacraw54]

I’m quite happy with a $200 profit and have often made much less. All I’m trying to do is cover the 1.5% or so my money would have made in a Savings account plus having the experience of playing an instrument I would not buy as a keeper.
Making $200 on a $4,000 instrument doesn’t sound like much, but $200 is $200.
To Net that 5% you have to Gross more like 10% to cover fees and have the buyer pay for shipping.

[Marty Jacobson]

I used to ask the buyer to pay the PayPal fee and shipping fee on top of the listed price of the item. Now I just price my item 5% higher. Buyer still pays, but it is not an added cost, it is included in the asking price.

How is this any different than asking the seller to pay the PayPal fees? Except, of course, for the fact that it's more transparent, and if someone should choose not to use PayPal, they don't have to pay the upcharge intented to cover PayPal's fees.

Seems like a lot of us here are just acting as enforcer's for PayPal's fee structure without reference to whether the individual seller is acting in good faith or not.

At the end of the day, you do a transaction based on whether you trust the seller or not. If you don't trust the seller, don't do business with them.

If you've ever been asked to pay for something with a cashier's check, there is a fee associate with buying the certified check. Anyone who has paid with a cashier's check has paid the fee and not thought twice about it. But PayPal is somehow different (because of the legalese which 99% of us have not bothered to read), and so a seller is skeezy if they list an instrument at $x dollars and expect $x dollars to be paid to them for the instrument.

[Stephen Perry]

[QUOTE=Marty Jacobson;1664614]At the end of the day, you do a transaction based on whether you trust the seller or not. If you don't trust the seller, don't do business with them.QUOTE]

Generally, those in business prefer there to be both trust and a very clear and unambiguous agreement. I have set up many many agreements among long time partners, friends, etc precisely to head off potential problems and work out issues first. Prudent, in my view, to understand and apply the agreements in place, or make appropriate ones. They need not be complex.

Another fun forgotten subject is risk of loss allocation.

[WoodyCTA102]

I like PayPal. I've bought and sold at least 30 instruments and musical equipment without an issue. It's convenient. The buyer can have an instrument in their hands in the time it would take for the buyer to get a money order, send it, etc. Heck, many of the big on-line retailers nowadays accept payments by PayPal.

PayPal like Ebay opened up the market for used instruments. I remember pre-web days when you were pretty much stuck with dealing with friends/locals to sell a used instrument, or accepting the 30% of new prices for a mint instrument most music stores would offer. If you were in a hurry to sell, forget it.

99+% of time, if you describe an instrument properly, have it priced accordingly, you won't have a problem using PayPal. If you fail in description or price, you are likely to have an issue no matter what payment method is used.

[Knock on wood because I'm getting about ready to sell a few instruments. Guess I better re-evaluate things.)