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OdnamNool
Jul-17-2005, 11:22pm
Surely some of you write songs. #How do you do it? #What is your technique? #Do you really use "theory" or do you just write stuff that sounds good to you? #And if you write lyrics too, which comes first? #The music or the words?

steve in tampa
Jul-18-2005, 4:25am
Everybody I know that writes does it differently. There are some definate guidelines for composition. There are plentiful resources on the internet.OPen mics are a great place to hear what others are doing and network

Here's a couple of links that can keep you busy:

http://www.nashvillesongwriters.com

http://www.justplainfolks.org

Doug Edwards
Jul-18-2005, 8:02am
I usually get the lyrics first, the music seems to come along with it. Occasionally I'll have a tune I can't get out of my head and will come up with lyrics that fit. The key for me is to drop everything and start writing as soon as inspiration hits. If I wait I'll lose most of the idea. I write my best stuff while driving or mowing the lawn. I have never been able to sit down with the intent to write. I know several good songwriters. They will tell you the majority of the songs they write never make the cut.

John Zimm
Jul-18-2005, 8:17am
I have only written tunes, not songs (well, I wrote one when I was 21 called "When the Money's All Gone", but that's it), and for me what usually happens is that I'm playing a song or just fiddling around with the mandolin and hear something I like. It may be only a few notes, but I keep playing it, think on it a while, play some more and try to develop a song around this little phrase I found. The problem is, this usually happens when I am in good spirits, and everything I have written sounds pretty bouncy and maybe a little corny.

-John.

ShaneJ
Jul-18-2005, 5:56pm
I don't follow any particular method (maybe I should!). I usually get the general idea or the "hook" first. Sometimes that will lead me to a tune to find words for, but most of the time it leads to words to find a tune for. A couple of times I came up with a chord progression I liked and found an idea and words to fit that. That kind of thing doesn't come as easily for me though.

OdnamNool
Jul-19-2005, 2:34am
Yep. I spoze I knew that everyone would have a different way of composing. It's interesting to learn about it.

Anyone else?

ira
Jul-28-2005, 1:09pm
though i am certainly not a pro, usually the lyrics and tune come at the same time, generally as i am musing about something. periodically i will get a tune, riff that won't leave my head, and eventually words come. i don't try to force them.

ira
Jul-28-2005, 1:11pm
btw- looked at the just plain folks site. they mention lots of members who have one grammy's, etc... is this also an org for actually "just plain folks" who write and play tunes at local joints and aren't hunting for the big time?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

steve in tampa
Jul-28-2005, 7:52pm
Ira!

Yes it is. Look in to your local chapter, and if there is not one, start one!
Our chapter meets once a month and does a show case/open mic thing.

There are message boards for the respective regions. Some more active than others.

Last Sunday we had a room full of about 40 musicians of different genres, though mostly acoustic singer/songwriters who were there to perform a couple of their original compositions. There was a PA and drums, bass, etc. We have a particularly strong chapter in Tampa

There is a national contest with a huge number of categories, and affiliation with TAXI

It is also free.

ira
Jul-29-2005, 8:33am
thanks steve,
actually sent brian an email re: same question. my only reason for asking was that the main page makes a big deal out of all the awards won by members which was not what i was expecting based on the org's name. brian's response was almost exactly like yours.

the chapter thing is interesting, as i am almost exactly at the mid point b/w boston, worcester and providence, so not sure which one to join. but i will be signing up. i like the boards- especially the try out your lyrics (which i assume is relatively safe).
www.ezfolk.com is a really nice community as well and allows free webhosting.

steve in tampa
Jul-29-2005, 1:24pm
Ira,

I would check out al the chapters and see which one is the best fit for you.

I also belong to The Nashville Songwriters Asciation International group here in Tampa, and have found the Orlando group ito be much more fun.

Michael H Geimer
Jul-29-2005, 4:23pm
I used to write a lot of instrumental music, that I would then hand off to a lyricist who would craft the vocal side of things. I would start with some progression of chords, and used multi-track recorders to work out the arrangements. I would often spend weeks refining the work before I felt I had everything in its place ... sans melody (and I always felt I was lacking talent in not being able to write vocal melodies myself, even though I felt my instrumental stuff was often pretty strong)

Now that I sing myself, I am working on a different approach. I'm trying to write all at once with the melody coming first, leading to lyrics, leading to chords ... backwards from where I used to begin, but so far the process has been working quite well. I have two originals under my belt so far, and I like them each.

My friend Billy has recently retired, and the music within him is now gushing out into the world! Lucky us that we get to play his originals in the band! (we play mine too, but Billy's songs are really something) He has also joined TAXI.

I hope to learn a thing or two from Billy as we continue to play together ... hopefully for many more years to come.

- Benig

ira
Jul-31-2005, 10:20am
just finished a song yesterday, and thought about this query. i think (again, no expert), that unless you have a record contract and co. breathing down your neck, one must let a song just come. i finished writing 4 songs in the past few months, and they all came from a different place.
1. make coffee...not war- i saw a bumper sticker just after reading an article in the paper over various exit strategies from the current war.
2. the brooklyn cowboy- saw some kids playing cowboys and indians with bikes as horses, and recalled my youth of doing the same thing in the wilds of brooklyn, ny.
3. the mandolin blues- hit some financial trouble and sitting and playing my mando as release and it just came out.
4. stripmalls - this song started a while back when sitting in a stripmall up in vt. and thinking, i could be anywhere-what happened to the uniqueness of our different towns/regions. though the lyrics and tune came pretty quickly, the key took a while, but eventually came when i was just sitting around and playing without thinking about it.
my songs are probably somewhat amateurish compared to some, but are certainly better than many other folkies i've heard. i think the muse hits, when it hits. at least this is how it works for me. i still have a riff waiting for it's words and chords to fill it out. who knows how long it will take? i try not to push it and it comes.

lastly, for me at least, this kind of creativity comes in spurts of 2-3 songs at a time.
anyway, sorry for the ramble.
peace,
ira

giverin
Aug-29-2005, 3:33pm
My way is simple (although not 100% effective), i "doodle" with notes until a nice sequence appears from the rabble. Then develop it. et voila

mandoman15
Aug-30-2005, 11:28am
when i write a song (with words) i usually just start playing a chord progression and then sing the words...just like that...then i quickly write it down so i don't loose it... usually there are some spots where i can't think of any words so i just skip that part and write it later when the whole song it done... to come up with the words and teh tune of the songs i just consider in my head what would sound good and then i sing that... it's sort of teh the michaelangelo effect, he claimed that the statues he carved were already in teh stone, he was just there to chip away the excess marble, it's sort of teh same with songs (for me) i know the song is somewhere, i just have to play it... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif good luck!

OdnamNool
Aug-30-2005, 1:27pm
Your comparison to Michaelangelo is way cool! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

firstchair
Jul-24-2007, 5:24pm
I just found out that they have rhyming dictionaries. I didn't even know they existed. But this would help with lyrics.

poymando
Jul-25-2007, 10:51am
Try "reverse engineering" a song/tune you really like. Take it apart and see what makes it tick. Look at themes, structure, what the melody is doing etc #Once you've identified some of those things, try to reproduce on your own.
Try Woody Guthrie's method and take an existing melody and add new words.
Pete Seeger's book "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" is an excellent rescource with lots of similar approaches if you can find it.

JeffD
Jul-25-2007, 1:11pm
For those of you that sing - I would suspect the mandola would be more suitable, because of its lower, more guitarish range - and for the center of the instrument being right there in the G - D keys.

Funny, I have never tried to write a tune. I sit in amazement when others do.

I heard a real good way to get started is to take the chord progression of another tune you like, and write a new tune to it.

Those who can write lyrics amaze me too. Just magic. Some of the songs of Bill Stains have such perfect lyrics, its as if they were always written, and Bill just had to find them.

Michael H Geimer
Jul-25-2007, 2:39pm
(It's neat to come back to a thread you posted in two years ago)

I didn't say this above, but I took on the challenge of learning to sing (and play at the same time) in order to become a more complete songwriter (not just a guy who writes instrumental stuff). It really helped my musicianship overall, and I highly recommend singing even if you don't think you'll ever sing in public.

These days, I start off singing the melody and words (in the car, or in my head at work, or just walking down the street). Only after I've settled on the melody and lyrics do I pick up an instrument.

This is where theory might help someone, as it helps me deduce the chords which harmonize to the melody.

A few days ago, a new tune popped into my head, and out through my guitar. It's got a fiddle tuney type of character (sorta Cheatum meets BB), and I've titled it 'Cattle Dog' in honor of this man's best 4-legged friends

ShaneJ
Jul-25-2007, 6:22pm
Interesting, Benignus. And it has paid off for you. Singing has just always been a given for me, growing up with a singing family. I used to "write" songs on the tractor when I was young. 12 hours going back and forth at 3 or 4 mph.....there's not much else to do besides sing to yourself - LOUDLY. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Shane

Any Day Now
Jul-25-2007, 6:43pm
If you want it to be good write it in your head. I'll normally just fish around to start and if I find something I like then I stop and think about it and phrase it just right and then figure it out.

Once you have the firs few notes the rest writes itself.

Dave Schimming
Jul-31-2007, 5:01pm
I generally start with a chord sequence first that sounds good and then start hearing the tune in my head which seems to best match up with the chords. For me the hard part is then trying to come up with lyrics that fit in.

Michael H Geimer
Jul-31-2007, 5:21pm
I used to "write" songs on the tractor when I was young.

I've read that's what Bill Monroe used to do, too. Worked out well for him, I'd say.

aphillips
Nov-19-2007, 10:09pm
A lot of times I'll get a phrase or a melody stuck in my head and then I sit at home with the piano or guitar and see if it comes to fruition - sometimes yes sometimes no - helps when my fiancee is away too. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Darren Kern
Nov-19-2007, 10:22pm
I took a songwriting class last year, and before then I had never attempted to write. #The teacher had us carry around a small notebook every where we went, and told us to write down anything that comes to mind. #It is a good exercise, it gets you thinking creatively and every once in a while a good idea can come to you from something that happens at work, sitting in traffic, standing in line at the DMV, watching TV, etc.

David Lloyd
Nov-20-2007, 12:17pm
I bought a copy of the Idiot's guide to songwriting . I love the Idiot series books. It containes alot of good information, Was definitely worth the price.
The song that I am working on now is about rain playing on a cd to cover up dogs barking and other noises that keep me from sleeping.
Dave

HogTime
Nov-21-2007, 11:27am
I'm usually picking a riff or strumming a vamp on my guitar and come up with a few lines (might be chorus or verse) right along with the melody. I then expand the song (then or later) to fit the "theme" of those few lines. I never come up with a melody by itself first.

I keep a small voice recorder in my car for ideas as I'm driving. Later I transfer the words to a "Song Ideas" file in my computer. If I'm at home and get an idea I either write it down or put it directly into my computer file. Most of those ideas in my computer file will never get developed, but I have finished some of them.

I have to be in the right "mood" to get into songwriting. Can't just sit down and work on one at any time.

Stephanie Reiser
Nov-21-2007, 11:36am
I'm in a bluegrass band that I play mandolin for, and I do folk music with a female collaborator on guitar and mando. Usually I have an emotion in mind first. For example, if it is a sad tune I will go in a minor key. Or if it is a traveling type tune or ballad I try for a hard driving tempo, maybe in D. If it is a love song, I try alot of decending scales, or on guitar I finger pick it, usually in drop-d tuning. I usually develope the music and the lyrics simultaneously; one thing helps out the other.

PaulD
Nov-21-2007, 12:07pm
I used to "write" songs on the tractor when I was young.

I've read that's what Bill Monroe used to do, too. Worked out well for him, I'd say.
John Prine worked out his song writing while delivering mail for the USPS. I can't recall if he actually came up with the lyrics or just worked out the ideas while he was walking his route.

I carry a notepad to jot ideas down but I have a hard time finding time to get back to them anymore. The last tune I wrote is a jig that the A part was almost finished when I woke up one morning and I just had to write it down, then work up a B and C part. The only "decent" lyrics I've written were pretty much done 20 years ago when life was simpler (no wife, no kids). My wife has mentioned several times recently that she'd like me to write some more... and the notepad is full of scraps of lyrics or "concepts" that I'd like to put to music.

As far as songs I've written... that's an interesting process. One is a guitar melody I was noodling on and decided to write words for it. I started by thinking about where I was and what I was thinking about when I first came up with the melody and wrote a verse about that. The rest fell out after that first verse. The other songs I've written started with the lyrics, then came the melody, then a chord progression.

pd

Michael H Geimer
Nov-21-2007, 12:49pm
Funny ... for me it's been the opposite. The only decent lyrics I've written have come recently. Maybe I just didn't have anything in my life worth writing about, maybe I was trying too hard to make the words sound "decent".

I've written a bunch of duds along the way, but there are three original songs I think of as True, Honest and Good; two are about my wife, and the last is about my dogs.

I think I would do well writing songs for children, as I seem to have a way with "silly" rhymes and turns (unlike my prose style, which I think is too think and wordy for the actual pea-brain behind this keyboard).

Here's my favorite verse I've ever put down on paper.

I'm loading my pack,
Gonna make the rounds,
Looking for a love that knows no bounds,
Of my direction there's no doubt,
East, Southwest, Northwards ... thereabouts.

Silly, but True. I hope I continue writing in a sincere, but casual style.

- MG

Alex Fields
Nov-21-2007, 5:51pm
Here's something ironic: I write both music and language well, but have never been able to write a song (music with words). Haha.

I don't really follow a process for writing music so it's hard to explain in very clear terms. I start in different ways. Probably the most common way I start writing a piece is by improvising until I play something I really like, whether it's a melody or an accompaniment thing or whatever, and then build from there. I can think of two other ways I start writing pieces (though a little less commonly): a melody or something kindof pops into my head and I figure it out on mandolin and then start writing; I have some kind of interesting theoretical idea, whether something to do with weird harmony or rhythm or just something to do with using a mandolin technique in a new way, and I start messing around with that until it goes somewhere I like.

Of course the difficult part with that is where I say that I "mess around." Because that doesn't mean much of anything. Maybe if you caught me while I was actually working I could describe in clear terms the processes I was using or something, but off the top of my head it's hard to say.

Once you've got an initial idea, composing becomes (at least for me) somewhat more procedural and theoretical. If you have a melody line written, you can throw down a basic chord structure just based on rules of theory. Of course you'll usually want more than just the really obvious chord line, but even then you can use chord replacement theory, chord leading theory, etc., to come up with different ideas until you find something you like better. Or you can just wildly experiment and hope something that doesn't make theoretical sense will sound good. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Of course this is all assuming a folk tune kindof of piece, which consists basically of melody and chordal accompaniment which people can interpret how they like, and I usually don't write music like that because my writing is heavily influenced my classical composition and I tend to write out the various parts more clearly than that while still leaving room for improvisation.

So, um, none of that was probably very helpful. Maybe this is helpful: writing music and improvising have a lot in common, in fact they're basically the same thing on a different scale, so any advice or books on improv will help you write and any tricks you've learned for improving can do the same thing. You can even use variation technique starting with some piece and gradually getting further and further away from it until you end up with something that sounds nothing like the original melody, and use that process to find ideas for melodies or harmonies or something.

Another potentially useful piece of advice: learn as much music theory as you can as thoroughly as you can. Knowing theory won't do all the work for you but it makes your job a lot easier, and at certain steps actually can tell you what to do. It's way harder to write if you're shooting more or less in the dark for what sounds good instead of using, at least as a starting place, harmonic theory.

Btw, I have never once wrote a piece by starting with a chord progression. Not saying I never will but it's never worked for me before.

sully542
Nov-21-2007, 7:08pm
I don't write much music. I've written a lot of "poetry". When I have put it to music I let the lyrics set the rythm.
doesn't sound so out of the box. Trick is to have the outcome tickle the ear. The Rythm & structure have to fit the mood. The goodness of God in the blues doesn't work to well.
Just my opinion which has been elevated to low opinion at low level. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

sully542
Nov-21-2007, 8:25pm
How bout dis? [yeah I'm a northern city boy]
ahh robin I've heard you sing
the trill in your voice
makes my heart ring
true;
you know where your goin
i know where ive been
and i really want
to see you again;
your eyes say so much
and your voice can't hide
all the beauty so deep inside;
its not how you look
[which captures my eye]
or your gracefull ways
which you can't disguise;
there something about you
that reaches me deep
it didn't at first
thats what makes it more
true;
what is it about you?
your spirit rings true
i'll try not to hurt you
i think i can love you

any way -
if you use it I can use a cut

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

sully542
Nov-21-2007, 8:28pm
is there a place to do stuff like this?
between the kids & the phone you can see
this took me an hour or so

Patrick Sylvest
Dec-31-2007, 10:02am
I've just completed a cd of original songs. All of the tunes were composed in different ways. Sometimes I'll have a guitar riff, and then everything else will flow from that. Other times, I'll think of something that may make a good lyrical twist.

I'm no pro, but I can't stop writing either. It's a form of expression that is so cathartic. I have lots of songs I believe would never have any commercial value, but they all mean something to me.

MYspace (http://www.myspace.com/papapat1) has several of my songs. Andy Leftwich plays mandolin and fiddle on the cd which is available at CD Baby (http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/patricksylvest)

Katie
Dec-31-2007, 12:56pm
I don't write a lot, but the best stuff I write is on long car trips. Train trips don't work as well because people look at you funny when you sing bits over and over. I usually start with the lyrics and a vague sense of the music. Meter is usually taken care of because I write my lyrics in meter. I keep stuff simple and usually write folk and childrens songs. One of the most interesting things I've ever heard about song writing was an interview with one of the guys that wrote music for Fraggle Rock. They had to come up with 2 or 3 songs a week and he said that he got in the habit of writing 5 songs a day. He said most of them were terrible and he would never consider using them, but it got the job done. I've tried that, but I'm too self conscious of the badness. I can't finish a song if I can't stand it. I usually go months or even years without writing a song and then write one in under an hour.
so to sum up...it's a complete mystery to me.
-Katie

billkilpatrick
Jan-02-2008, 10:57am
ciao odnamnool ... long time no read!

the ditties i "devised" for a series of robert frost poems came from reading the poems over and over again while strumming my sweetie-pie guitalele - eventually the music in the words got through.

if curious, please see the "youtube" link in the signature below.

i also agree with katie - driving and melody-making go together nicely.

- bill

farmerjones
Jan-03-2008, 2:38pm
i've both written songs with lyrics and composed instrumental works. As many will tell, it's almost like recieving something from the aethers. But it's like a muscle in the fact, that the more you do it, the more you do it. Being prolific is the key it seems, because of the "fraction of the fraction." Only a fraction of a fraction will be put on hold, let alone cut, or hit. So why write? It sounds corny but it's not a choice. Im not that prolific, but i play enough that it must come from that.

roland
Jan-03-2008, 4:29pm
In my own songwriting, the lyrics come first. I often have a rudimentary melody/rhythm that I use to keep the lines, rhymes, verses and choruses consistent. I try not to do too much editing the very first time through, but I go back through the songs many many times honing words, phrases and even ideas to keep them interesting and real. I don't mind much if folks need to hear a song more than once to feel that they "get it." Yet I also try not to be obscure or poetic on purpose.

The songs by others that I keep coming back to are usually layered in some way that is accessible yet fresh upon each listen. I shy away from the stale and cliched. I hope my songwriting does the same.

roland

My Webpage (http://www.rolandtrenary.com)

woodwizard
Jan-03-2008, 5:04pm
I play in a band that plays a lot of originals. Everyone in the band writes songs/tunes. I guess I write the least. Only 2 so far. "Whiskey Thru A Straw" (An intrumental of course) and "When I get Back Home" (a singing one that started out as an intrumental). We can do almost 3 hours of orininals. For me I have a melody going and then put words to it. But that's just me. We have a guy in the band that can just spit songs out. I don't know how he does it. But we all work together on the music arangements of his songs. We play only a few covers most of the time.

Mr. Loar
Jan-09-2008, 1:09pm
I've had a couple of my songs published and one of them won a songwriting contest. Generally, a lot of what happens with a song depends on what I'm playing at the time. A song written on the piano has a different vibe than one that's written on the guitar. I usually find some nice sounding chord progression, put a melody to that progression, then put lyrics to that melody.

roland
Jan-10-2008, 9:24pm
Mr Loar,

Congrats on your successes. Do you have any insights into songwriting contests? Did your win involve also playing your songs live in front of judges, or was it a mail-in entry?

Mr. Loar
Jan-11-2008, 4:33pm
Mr Loar,

Congrats on your successes. Do you have any insights into songwriting contests? Did your win involve also playing your songs live in front of judges, or was it a mail-in entry?
It was a contest to perform at the 2000 World's Fair. The songs didn't wind first place but I got a bunch of nice equipment. I normally don't enter in those stupid contests but this one looke legitimate and it was. I don't trust them, they'll steal your stuff even if it's copywrited.

roland
Jan-11-2008, 5:03pm
That's an interesting point. Thievery. I've had a Gibson j50 guitar stolen, but no songs so far. I wonder if others on the board here have run into instances of their creations being ripped off and then passed off as someone else's copyrighted song?