Virzi

[Km1000seth]

Would a luthier such as Dude, be able to put a virzi in my Weber Galatin?

[mandroid]

As I understand; gotta take the back off, ya know, mention has been made ; that the top of one [in the loar era] is different made for with vzzi vs made to be sold without.
maybe laproscopic surgery can take em out though without a rib spreader...

[glauber]

AFAIK from what i read in previous threads, there are differences in the construction, i.e.: the mandolin has to be built for Virzi. At the very least, the tone bars are different. So maybe, but it might be more complicated than just popping the thing in.

[JEStanek]

I think there was another thread talking about some people putting rattle snake rattles in their mandos for a good effect instead... The "redneck" virzi. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Jamie

[sunburst]

I've seen at least one pre-20s Gibson with a virzi. The virzi serial number suggests it was made in 1924, so that leads me to believe Gibson retrofitted virzis into older mandolins. I don't think they carved the tops differently for virzi or non-virzi mandolins.

If you want to spend your money and take your chance, you can probably find someone to retro a virzi into pretty much any mandolin.

[Ken Sager]

A question that needs answering here is "Why?"

Do you like your mandolin? If so, why tear it apart to put a virzi in it when you really don't have any idea what it will do to the tone? If you don't like your mandolin, why do you think a virzi would make it any better?

If you simply want a mandolin with a virzi, I'd suggest finding a luthier to build a virzi-equipped mando from scratch for you and selling the Gallatin to pay for part of it. Otherwise, you'll probably spend a lot of cash to retrofit a mandolin that wouldn't be any better (tone or value) after it's complete.

If your heart is set on doing it, I'd talk to the terrific folks at Weber to see what they could do for you. If anybody could do a good job at retrofitting it, they could.

Just my two bits.

Love to all,
Ken

[Km1000seth]

Good words, Im not "set" on having one, just wonderin if it COULD.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Gibson did retrofit some Virzi's. There is a Catalog that actually prices it. I have seen a couple of Loars with Virzi that were definately refitted (slightly thinner rimset and slight binding shift)

I see no diference in the tonebars or anything else w/respect to mandolins with Virzi's

[Philip Halcomb]

One thing to consider is that I believe the Galatin is X braced, the Loars with virzis of course were // braces. I don't know how that might affect the project. Perhaps not at all...

[Tim]

Weber does a lot of custom orders but the default for the Gallatin is tone bars.

[evanreilly]

I believe that the tone bars on some original Loar era instruments were slightly notched to accept the feet of the Virzi, which was suspended between the tone bars.
I suspect that a competent luthier could retro-fit a Virzi, but.... why bother??? Order a new instrument with one.

[evanreilly]

Bobby Osborne had the Virzi re-fitted into his Loar, BTW.

[Philip Halcomb]

Weber does a lot of custom orders but the default for the Gallatin is tone bars.
My bad, I was thinking of the Yellowstone which is X braced and mixed them up in me brain. Thanks for the correction.

[Dave Cohen]

In March, I finally got around to doing my bracing experiment, and incorporating a 'Virzi' experiment as well. I had built a 'test mule' mandolin with an easily removable back (otherwise normal). I (a) did holographic modal analysis on the mandolin with tone bars, then (b) installed a Virzi (made from the GAL drawing), gave the glue 24 hrs to dry, and did the modal analysis all over. Then © I did the same for X braces, and for (d) one other bracing pattern. Each day, I also recorded sound spectra and impulse spectra before changing out the braces. In May, I gave an invited paper on the work at the ASA (Acoustical Society of America) meeting in Vancouver.

So what did I find? In a few words, The Virzi does do 'something', but not a lot. I second the idea that it is not worth altering a perfectly good non-Virzi'd mandolin by doing the surgery. If you can afford the experiment, buy or commission a Virzi'd mandolin instead. Opinion re the Virzi runs the spectrum. John Monteleone has called them "stupid things", while Tony Williamson thinks that they do wonderful things for the ensemble sound of an instrument. I had some vintage mandolins at NIU 1.5 yrs ago, some w/ Virzi, some without. Modal analysis and spectral analysis on those didn't reveal anything that could definitely be attributed to the Virzi, but Chicago area mandolinist Drew Carson did say that he noticed "a slight hum" in the Virzi'd instruments, and he likes that. The only definite thing that I could see with the test mule mandolin was a lowering of the frequency of the sideways rocking motion with the Virzi installed. That, and a maybe a bit of splitting of some modal frequencies. I couldn't tell much difference in the sound myself, but then, that doesn't mean much. The spectra also didn't show much difference between the tone bars and the tone bars with Virzi installed. I don't think that a Virzi makes enough diffeerence to justify the time to make and install, but I suppose it depends on how much the customer wants to pay.

http://www.erols.com/judcohen

[grandmainger]

Dave, thanks for the experiment, the results are interesting. Especially because there are so very few example of an actual comparison. I have a virzi in my mandolin, and I love the sound of it, but that obviously does not mean that I would not love the sound of it without a virzi!

Here's my take on a couple of things:

1) If I touch the virzi with my finger through the f-hole then play a note, the sound is obviously different, and I prefer the 'virzied' sound (ie no finger on it, much easier play http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif )

2) Somehow, and that's my head I'm sure, I feel that the fact that the virzi plate is directly in front of my head/ears when I play (suspended mid-depth, through bass f-hole).
My (basic) understanding of physics would suggest that the virzi plate tends to carry more higher frequency, as it's small and stiff. Somehow, I feel it carries more mid-range and treble through the bass hole.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Germain

[Dave Cohen]

Germain, the Virzi doesn't act quite the way you are assuming. Basically, it is another mass hanging in there on the top plate., so the expectation would be that it it would split some modes, and probably lower the frequencies of some, which is pretty much what we saw. The thing weighs about 15 grams, which is about the same as a Gibson adjustable bridge (or knockoff). That suggests that it would also be a bit of a mute, something with which some here would probably agree.

The problem with putting your finger on the Virzi is that it is rigidly connected to the top plate, so you are damping the top as well as the Virzi as you do your experiment.

[grandmainger]

Germain, the Virzi doesn't act quite the way you are assuming. Basically, it is another mass hanging in there on the top plate., so the expectation would be that it it would split some modes, and probably lower the frequencies of some, which is pretty much what we saw. The thing weighs about 15 grams, which is about the same as a Gibson adjustable bridge (or knockoff). That suggests that it would also be a bit of a mute, something with which some here would probably agree.

Dave,
You are right of course. I do agree also that the whole volume is likely decreased a little with the extra weight.


The problem with putting your finger on the Virzi is that it is rigidly connected to the top plate, so you are damping the top as well as the Virzi as you do your experiment.

It may be my imagination (probably is http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif !) but when I do this, it feels as though the "wings" of the virzi plate vibrate longer that the top itself. Totally subjective finger feel though, but perhaps part of that buzzing you referred to.

[Blueglass]

thanks Dave

[Km1000seth]

wow...i wasnt expecting a topic THIS in depth, thanx Dave, its good to know stuff like that.