Matt Umanov Guitars (NYC) to Close

[BradKlein]

The news from the Umanov Website (http://www.umanovguitars.com/news/closing-after-50-years-2017-10-02/):

After fifty-three years of having been in the business of helping so many guitar (and all the other fretted instruments) players have the tools with which to make music, forty-eight of those years at my store here in Greenwich Village, in the great City of New York, it is finally time for me to close this chapter of my life, relax some, travel some, play with the grandkids, all that kind of thing, though I wouldn’t quite call it “retirement”; I’ll still be around. Having been both mechanically and musically inclined since I was very little, I started out, when a teenager in the early 1960s, taking apart, and rebuilding, and building, guitars and banjos; nothing could stop me, and I was fortunate enough to be able to support myself doing that full time by the age of eighteen. One thing led to another, and by 1969 I had opened my store. I continued to do repair work while selling my favorite instruments too; the reputation spread, and I was able to build a clientele that included neighborhood kids, working musicians, working pros in all areas of the arts, and just about everyone in between. The list seems endless.

I think that what I’ll miss the most will be having what someone called “my clubhouse”, where so many of you have come over the years to look, to buy, to get their treasured instruments back into working shape, to hang out and shoot the breeze. I’ll miss the unpredictable, terrific array of all of you coming in and being who you are, fascinating and wonderful every one, made my day, every day. I won’t be going away entirely, will still be reachable by email, happy to help with anything I can, so please keep in touch. And thank you all for so much great music which, after all, is what all this is about.

[allenhopkins]

First Mandolin Brothers, now Umanov's. Is Retrofret the last store left in NYCity? Shows again how personalized the business of buying, selling and repairing vintage instruments can be; when the founder decides to retire, or is forced to by illness, age, whatever, the business closes -- no heirs waiting in the wings to carry it on. Sandy's in Cambridge too, a few years ago.

Think of how many of the stores we discuss, respect, and deal with are one-person shows, or nearly. I'd cite Denver's Folklore Center as an exception, as there seem to be successors to run it after Harry Tuft doesn't do the day-to-day.

Here in Rochester John Bernunzio said he was going to cut back his involvement, just do the big "buys" and appraisal and dealing in vintage instruments, leave the rest to Julie and the staff. Know what? He's in the store every time I go there. So much for "cutting back."

I only hope that our other "fave" dealers have a succession plan of some sort. Not seeing a whole bunch of Gen-X's or millennials starting vintage instrument dealerships. They may be out there, but I've missed 'em...

[Tobin]

Well, crud. That's disappointing. Inevitable, I suppose, but still...

I bought my Ome banjo from him a few years ago. Still has the Umanov sticker on the back of the peghead. I thought about taking it off, but I guess I'll just leave it on there forever. It'll be a nice nod to the past, and things that were.

[jesserules]

That's too bad, it was a cool place to have around, although priced beyond my means when I lived in New York.

Elderly seems to be still going strong, I sure hope it continues when Stan Werbin decides to retire.

[Jim Garber]

First Mandolin Brothers, now Umanov's. Is Retrofret the last store left in NYCity?

Not quite... there is still TR Crandall (https://trcrandall.com/) started by one former head repairman at Umanov. Actually Steve Uhrik, owner of RetroFret was head repair guy at Umanov in the 1980s.

I used to go to Umanov's years ago. One day I walked in and Matt said I have something with your name on it. He took it out and I said, "My name is not Martin." I walked out of there with a beautiful 1920's Martin 3K uke which I still have.

[Glassweb]

"Matty", like Stan Jay and George Gruhn was a force of nature and a gentleman as well. Even as a 17 year-old, no nothing, play nothing aspiring mandolinist I was treated like "one of the guys" by Matty and everyone else who came through those doors and believe me when I say some amazing people came through those doors on a daily basis. Whether hanging in the front room or the back room, the Bedford Street shop was a never-ending, always educational party. Love that guy!

Thanks for all the memories Matt and for treating me with respect... even though I was just a punk. Wishing you all the best with whatever life should offer you next...

[Montananmrk]

Elderly although seeming to have a great reputation has dealt me badly. They sold me a 1924 Roth Violin for $4000 that turned out to have a bad soundpost crack on the back and won’t take it back. Plus they tried to tell me a mint octave mandolin needed “set up” work before taking it on trade, which they wanted to charge me for. It was an old Weber with new strings and a brekke bridge in mint condition. To set it up to their specks all you have to do is turn the bridge wrench. Sheisters!

[Cary Fagan]

The last time I was there, a woman was very generous in bringing out the mandolins for me to try. Then when Andy Statman's name came up she called him on his cell for me to see if he was playing. Sorry to see it go.

[Timbofood]

It is sad to see one more classy place close down, time changes everything. The days of real local shops are dwindling to be sure. Through the excellence of classified opportunities offered here (and at several other online dealers, of course) small shops have a hard time. Sad but, true.
As for a bad experience at Elderly, I'm sorry to hear that. Everybody has a bad day, I'm quite surprised that they were not more cooperative with your needs Montanamark. Maybe everyone had a bad day.

[multidon]

Montanamrk- I too am sorry to hear of your negative experience at Elderly. I have dealt with them for many years, buying several instruments and many accessories, as well as having sold dozens of instruments through their consignment process. So, having dealt with them on both ends, I think I am qualified to speak to their service. Which I have always found to be excellent. Their consignment process does not put huge piles of money in your pocket, but it does no good to ask 20 percent more money for your instrument if you can't find a buyer. The visibility of their website is second to none. One of my instruments was sold to someone in Japan. Another to someone in the UK. Could I have done that on my own? I think not. And they worry about the packing and shipping. In my opinion, they really work for that consignment fee.

Regarding the violin with the soundpost crack, that is unfortunate. In fairness, though, we are only hearing your side of the story. Not trying to imply anything by saying that, simply pointing out that most stories have two sides, and we are not hearing Elderly's side on that, nor will we ever, in all probability.

Regarding the Weber OM, you say it's "mint", but you also say it's "old". How do you know all that it needed was the bridge adjusted? Are you a professional luthier, as they are? Believe me, I know what you're talking about when it comes to work needed before they will sell it. Of the roughly 2 dozen or so instruments I've consigned there, only a couple of them needed nothing. Most needed a little work, not much though, always less than a hundred dollars, usually much less. Did you ask them to explain what it needed? I have done that and they have always been happy to explain what they found out. Sometimes, rather than being upset, I was happy to find out about a high fret or a neck with upbow that I wasn't aware of. If you have an "old" instrument as you did, isn't it possible that they could have found other issues with it that you simply weren't aware of? Instruments definitely change as they get older, even if they just sit in the case.

Elderly is an excellent business in my opinion. They have been in business for a very long time, with thousands upon countless thousands of satisfied customers worldwide. If it were otherwise, they simply wouldn't have been able to stay in business for so long. If they ever do go out of business, it will leave a gaping hole in the music business that I can't ever imagine being filled by anyone else. Where else, pray tell, can you go and find a 135,000 dollar Loar mandolin and a 5 cent screw given equal space on a website? And where else can you find inventory space devoted to esoteric instruments like harps, dulcimers, concertinas, and tin whistles as well as the much more popular and profitable guitars and ukuleles?

[AlanN]

I was there once. They had an A-3 which was way overpriced. The staff was rude and seemed to 'couldn't be bothered'. That said, sorry to see it close.

[Jeff Hildreth]

Too bad about the closure.

As to Elderly. " everybody has a bad day" ?

I was a loyal customer for 3 decades.. until..
two very expensive back to back custom Martin guitars were both fatally flawed. Elderly's involvement, participation, customer service was non existent and they doubted and challenged my observations about the guitars. One I never played as the defects were so obvious and when Martin finally got it ( after I had to pay to ship it back to Elderly having owned it all of one day after waiting 8 months for the guitar) they said it was unrepairable and destroyed it. The other spent 5 months at Martin being repaired, the repairs failed, it was returned ( first to Elderly at their request and my expense and then sent to Martin and Elderly charged me the shipping from them to Martin.. )
Martin promised repairs, then changed their minds, then lost the guitar, then made a replacement not to the specifications of the original. Once again they offered an equal value guitar in exchanged, the person who offered was fired.. they decided to fix the first which was "lost" then they decided to make another... and it was grossly flawed including neck set off kilter to the center line of the guitar etc... All the while, both this instrument and the first one I repeatedly asked Elderly for help, none given.
I had the original guitar for 30 days, Martin and Elderly had it for 13 months. The second one I had for 24 hours. Martin had it for 3 months until they made a decision to have the dealer reimburse me as they said it would take a year to make a replacement and I declined, and brought to their attention the fiasco with the other guitar still in process. . Elderly was not happy about this but did reimburse me. The first guitar that was "lost" was eventually found and destroyed.. but they had finally decided to have the dealer reimburse me as they declined to build a third replacement and had retracted the offer of an equal value instrument.

I kept Elderly aware of all this and asked them to intervene. Nothing resulted from this.
My guess is that Elderly did not want to compromise their relationship with Martin and would sacrifice a customer to that end.

Later I decided to order another in stock guitar from Elderly and found my account "flagged".. meaning a troublesome customer after 30 years and no glitches up to this point.. the exception being the two custom ordered guitars. And in both cases the guitars were eventually destroyed by Martin as un repairable. Nothing whatever to do with me as I had no influence over the defective construction.
I had nothing whatever to do with Martin's in house bungling with respect to the repairs or replacement or lost instruments.

So after 30 years.. and a "flagged" account.. I have no need of Elderly. It is not the same company it was in the past.

PS'
As a former National Management Training Manager for two high line European auto manufacturers I travelled the country teaching customer service.
I was also Field Service Manager for the best engineered car in the world where my responsibility was customer service for Nor Cal Nevada Utah.. Same job for a Japanese auto manufacturer of high regard.
I have some familiarity with customer service. Some businesses are clueless.. and to prove that Martin's former "customer service" Department ( I have owned 14 Martins since 1961) now calls their former customers "consumers" and their dealers are their customers.
This right from Martin when in the course of my discussions with them over the two failed custom guitars. BTW the customer service manager was also booted during my year long ordeal.

Again, too bad about Umanov Guitars. Never heard a bad word about them.

[BradKlein]

I'll second the observation by Jim Garber. TR Crandall Guitars and Retrofret are the standard bearers for serious vintage instruments in NYC now.

As for bad experiences, and customer service complaints, Umanov has had them... like all the dealers in the country.

In later years, Umanov's, the store, focused less on vintage high end instruments, and had to move a lot of 'standard' new electric guitars and amps and acoustics too, to keep the doors open. Remember they are located in the Village, amid super-high value real estate, with a steady stream of tourists and one-time visitors coming through.

But even then, if you did catch Matt in the store, and engaged him in a subject that interested him -- he was passionate and opinionated and informed. I learned from his passionate opinions about mid century martin tenors, and the best espresso and Italian pasties nearby. A special place, for sure.

[multidon]

Wow Jeff, that is quite a story indeed!

Elderly used to advertise themselves as the largest Martin dealer in the country. Don't know if that's still true but they sell a lot of Martin guitars. I guess it makes sense that they would want to maintain the relationship. If the facts are as you state, you were treated poorly indeed. But I might also point out it had as much to do with Martin as it did Elderly. Perhaps even more. Martin is also not the company it used to be. From "mahogany" that isn't really mahogany to Masonite guitars, to cheesy pictures printed on faux "collector's editions", they have lost me, and many others. Now apparently add poor customer service to the list. Too bad. My main guitar axe is a Gibson now. Love the short scale, build quality, classic design, and no mystery wood. I know Gibson as a corporation has problems, but thankfully they seem to leave the Montana shop alone to do what they do. They make some outrageously good guitars at a reasonable cost. Also, I love Larrivee. Very nice for the price, no garbage wood or components. With all the choices out there, who needs Martin?

[Timbofood]

The good, the bad, and the ugly always comes out when customer service is concerned, I have had nothing but good experience at Elderly, I have had good and bad experiences other places, then I have had some ugly ones at other places too, like I say, something can go sideways at any point and get unpleasant.
I was never a customer at Umanov's. Now, it seems I never will.
Sorry Jeff, didn't mean to bring up a sore spot.

[BradKlein]

One more Matt Umanov recollection, (and maybe an effort to steer the thread in that direction :-) )

Matt and I once got into a conversation about how price related to an 'exceptionally good sounding instrument.' He surprised me by saying that it did not relate at all and he made no effort to price by sound 'quality' in vintage instruments. That he priced by model, year and condition. As I recall the conversation, his point was, no matter what a guitar/mandolin/etc sounds like to him, SOMEONE will walk through that door and it'll be just what that one person is looking for. He was seeming to say that it's a fool's game for a dealer to try and predict what guitar will ring some customer's bell. And it only takes one buyer to make a sale.

I've spoken since to those who agree and those who strongly disagree, but that's how I remember the conversation with Matt.

[allenhopkins]

...his point was, no matter what a guitar/mandolin/etc sounds like to him, SOMEONE will walk through that door and it'll be just what that one person is looking for. He was seeming to say that it's a fool's game for a dealer to try and predict what guitar will ring some customer's bell. And it only takes one buyer to make a sale. I've spoken since to those who agree and those who strongly disagree, but that's how I remember the conversation with Matt.

Hijack warning: what Brad says reminds me of a trade-in I made once. When I was in the Army (1965-67) I loved the Byrds' sound, so took some of my Sp4 money and bought a Japanese-made Univox electric 2-string, cherry-red hollow-body, from a music store in Manhattan KS. I never really played it, being basically "Mr. Acoustic," so decided to trade it in when I purchased some other instrument from my then boss, the late Eldon Stutzman, founder of Stutzman's Guitar Center (http://www.stutzmansguitarcenter.com) here in Rochester. He was pretty contemptuous of the Univox, offered me a minimal trade-in allowance, said "I'll never be able to sell it."

About a half-hour later, a customer walked in, said he was looking for an electric guitar that he could adapt to play Greek music -- sorta an "electric bouzouki." Double-string courses, etc. I showed him the Univox, which had just become property of the store. He thought that was a good fit for him, bought it for about double the trade-in allowance. I said to Eldon, "So, you'll never be able to sell it, eh? How long did it sit in inventory, about 30 minutes?' He and I had a little chuckle about it, but it really speaks to Brad's, and Umanov's, point. As Johnny Cash wrote, "There's someone for me somewhere"; applies to instruments as well as lovers, I guess.

[jesserules]

...Martin promised repairs, then changed their minds, then lost the guitar, then made a replacement not to the specifications of the original. Once again they offered an equal value guitar in exchanged, the person who offered was fired..

Does not seem like Elderly is at fault there in any way. Doubt that they were/are in a position to put pressure on the Martin Custom Shop.

......................

I was mostly thinking in terms of nationally (or even more widely) known fretted instrument places that people can still just drop in to; places that are strongly identified with their owners. There's Gruhn's of course. Never been to Gryphon, looks like a great place. Carter Vintage Guitars, a rare new venture into the field. I'm sure there are others.

It's a shame to lose any of them. There are things a place like that can do for you that an internet site just can't.

[Jeff Mando]

"Matty", like Stan Jay and George Gruhn was a force of nature and a gentleman as well. Even as a 17 year-old, no nothing, play nothing aspiring mandolinist I was treated like "one of the guys" by Matty and everyone else who came through those doors and believe me when I say some amazing people came through those doors on a daily basis. Whether hanging in the front room or the back room, the Bedford Street shop was a never-ending, always educational party. Love that guy!

Thanks for all the memories Matt and for treating me with respect... even though I was just a punk. Wishing you all the best with whatever life should offer you next...

I had a similar experience, knowing him casually from the guitar shows. I was in NYC for a guitar show, he invited me and my co-worker to dinner at one of those cool, outdoor sidewalk cafes in Greenwich Village. I remember the food was great, the weather was great, as well as the conversation and company. A real gentleman. Good luck, Matty!

[Ivan Kelsall]

I must come down on the side of Brad & Allen - ALL our tastes are different. I've heard folk enthuse about banjos & guitars that i thought were abominable !!. I remember being at one UK Bluegrass music festival,when a guy who was a mandolin player, & regular festival goer,turned up with a mandolin of a very prestigious make,that he told us had once belonged to Dave Grisman. He was over the moon regarding this mandolin. However,when he played it,it became fairly obvious why Mr Grisman might have sold it - it sounded like a plank !. Nobody said this. The guy was obviously smitten with his new purchase - why destroy that !.

Pricing an instrument by model/ year & condition seems pretty fair to me, as what we desire 'personally' tone-wise, is exactly that - personal preference,
Ivan

[Mandobar]

When you do valuations, the exceptional sound never comes into the picture. You also cannot insure an instrument for more money because it sounds better than a similar one. "Exceptional sounding" is a subjective term. However, many dealers will set these instruments aside for their preferred customers.

[grassrootphilosopher]

I bought my first good guitar (Martin D-16M) at Matt Umanov´s. I wanted a better/good guitar. By chance my flight schedule was upset. So I had about a day to spend in New York City. I remembered a reference to Matt Umanov´s Guitar Shop in Happy Traum´s Bluegrass Guitar (Oak Publications). It´s in the back of the book where he writes about "the Japanese" that came to Matt Umanov´s shop and asked about a herringbone guitar, measured it out and came up with their own version. I looked the shop up in NYC´s yellow pages and went to Bleeker Street. In the shop I played quite some instruments and finally bought my guitar. It was an okay deal, the sales guy was friendly. My guitar has served me very well since then. I still play it, though not as often, since my older and my newer guitar get more playing time. Lately we were in Rome together and had a blast picking again.

So Matt Umanov... all the best in the future.

[Montananmrk]

<violates forum posting guidelines. there's another side to this story that is not being presented and some of these statements are false. your further participation in this discussion will result in your permanent dismissal from the Cafe.>

[multidon]

Montananmrk- in your post #7, you called your octave mandolin "an old Weber with new strings". Now you say "my octave was not old, it was brand new." Both statements can't be true, and my comments were based on what you said originally. I tend to take what folks say at face value, unless there is evidence to the contrary. It now seems as if you are changing the narrative.

I get that you had a bad experience with the folks at Elderly. And that you no longer wish to do business with them. That is fine, and that is certainly your right. But I did feel the need to defend them after your post. I kind of felt like your first post seemed a bit out of place here. One person just mentioned Elderly in a single sentence, a simple sentiment wishing them well in the wake of other music stores closing. You seem to have viewed that simple sentiment as an open door to grind some axe. This thread is supposed to be about Matt Umanov's, not Elderly. Perhaps you are not the only one who had a bad experience at Elderly, but like I said before there are literally thousands upon thousands with the opposite experience. I have made several trips there through the years, both to buy and to sell. It is a huge deal for me when I go there, being a six hour drive. I usually stay overnight in a motel, because it's just too much for one day. Any time I've been there, every employee I've had interaction with had been friendly, helpful, and professional. Any I know many others will say the same.

I think it's a shame that this discussion has been derailed from Matt Umanov's closing, which should be the focus based on the original post. But I just could not let this thing against Elderly go unanswered. I suppose when you are in business, you can't please everyone all the time. It is inevitable that you will fall short in some people's views. But I did not want anyone following this thread to think that everyone going to Elderly would be treated like Montananmrk claims to have been treated. I would say, try them for yourself if you have an opportunity to do so and make up your own mind as to whether they are worthy of your business.

[Mandolin Cafe]

There's another side to this story so the Elderly bashing will cease. A lot of facts are being skewed or conveniently eliminated. Start your own thread if you wish to use the internet for a razor, and do so at your own risk. Some of the information that's been presented here not only violates forum posting guidelines but is simply FALSE and misleading. If you want to provide misleading information, take it elsewhere. If this means the Cafe gets added to the list of hated businesses of one or two, so be it, but the discussion gets back to the original purpose.

Or it ceases, I don't care. But we will not tolerate any more anonymous b.s., lies and game playing. You've been warned.

[allenhopkins]

When did this thread become about Elderly?

We're talking about Umanov's closing. Someone's experience with another dealer is not just a hijack, it's totally out of bounds.

Several good posts on experience with Umanov, who sure wasn't cheap, but apparently had some of the old "stop in, hang out, play some of the merchandise" vibe. I think of Harry Tuft and the Denver Folklore Center, Stu Cohen at Music Emporium, John Bernunzio and Dave Stutzman locally. Places you can meet local musicians, talk about the music scene, maybe make friends and get a dollar off on your next pack of strings ("good customer discount").

Got a call from a guy yesterday; his daughter had given him a concertina as a present (wonder how she really feels about Dad?). He asked Dave Stutzman about it -- along the lines of "Whatthehell do I do with this?" -- and Dave suggested he call me, for sage advice, since I play concertina as well, and Dave knows, basically, nada about concertinas. Long story short, he has an Anglo*, I play English,* so I referred him elsewhere. Point being, if you've spent enough time in a particular shop, the owner knows you, and that's a good thing. Even if it means fielding concertina questions.

Which is why I raised the point about how these shops are extensions of a particular owner's personality, and when that person retires or gives up running the place for whatever reason, many of them don't survive. Which is a pity.

*Different fingering systems; don't ask.

[multidon]

Hey Allen, long story short, discussion about Umanov's precipitated bringing up the names of other stores, which opened the door for some with an apparent axe to grind. As for my own participation in that sub thread, I strongly felt that there needed to be a defense of and a counterpoint for the things that were being said about a particular business. Stuff like that which was posted cannot go unanswered. But Scott has wisely brought an end to all that. I'm sure everyone is grateful for that.

I have been to NYC a couple of times but was never able to fit a trip to Umanov's into my schedule. Unfortunately it looks like I never will. However, I did make the trek to Manfolin Brothers and saw Les Paul perform twice!

[allenhopkins]

Along the lines of Umanov and inflated "NYCity prices," I recently purchased a very nice Apollonio 12-string guitar from the estate of a friend here in Rochester, who departed much too early via cancer. He had bought it from another owner, a Hudson Valley folkie who ended up with it after a divorce, and wanted to sell it. She had it, and two/three other guitars, appraised as part of the divorce settlement, apparently by Matt Umanov.

As a result of the appraisal, she valued the Apollonio at $4K, and my friend bought it from her at slightly less than that. I offered my friend's sister $2.5K for it, and bought it at that price. Funny thing is, Nick Apollonio sells them new for $2.4K! So Umanov's appraisal was wildly high, and I got a (very lightly) used 12-string for a bit more than I would have paid for a new one.

Oh well, I got an excellent hard-shell case, a stand, and a mounted internal mic, so no complaints. But it does point out that Matt U was not a "low-baller" when it came to instrument prices.

[multidon]

Hmmm.. me thinks this has something to do with appraised value vs actual value, aka street price. Umanov was simply doing a formal appraisal. Now, granted some research into what the new price for the same thing would have been better, but we see all the time different "values" for the same instrument. Take our Classifieds for example. More and more we are seeing things like "I'll take 1600 cash for this, but I am open to trades. Trade value is 2000." So, we have appraised value (for insurance purposes as well as divorce settlements), trade value, book value (according to the standard reference books), and of course market value, what someone is actually willing to pay for it. We see the same thing in the non musical world too. Many times we see on Antiques Roadshow something like "at auction it should bring 15-25 thousand dollars, but I would recommend you insure it for a minimum of 50 thousand". So, the value of the instrument is kind of a fluid thing.

Since it was an appraisal, Mr. Umanov probably was erring on the high side because he assumed it was for insurance purposes, where valuation is often, shall we say, optimistic. In the case of the Hudson Valley Folkie, it would seem that she failed to realize the difference between appraised value and real value.

By the way, Hudson Valley Folkies would be a great band name! :)

[Tom Haywood]

Great person and great store.

[Jim Garber]

However, I did make the trek to Manfolin Brothers and saw Les Paul perform twice!

I am assuming that those are two separate events, unless you saw Les Paul play twice at Mandolin Brothers? :)

[multidon]

Um, yea, sorry for my clumsy grammar. I should know better.

I saw Les Paul perform twice at the Iridium Club in Manhattan. The trip to Mandolin Brothers in Staten Island was a separate event.

[Nevin]

I too am somewhat sad to see this store go. However it is not due to the financial pressures of NYC or the hard times of a bricks and mortar store. The owner simply wants to retire. He owns the building so rent is not an issue.

[Bernie Daniel]

I too am somewhat sad to see this store go. However it is not due to the financial pressures of NYC or the hard times of a bricks and mortar store. The owner simply wants to retire. He owns the building so rent is not an issue.

Wonder if he has tried to sell the business to someone else? If he owns the building I assume he would like to liquidate that also for his retirement?

[Brian B]

Then when Andy Statman's name came up....

In about '74 or 5 there was a little piece of paper tacked to a post in Matt's store that read, "The Brooklyn College of Bluegrass Knowledge," and a phone number for Andy. From that number came a few years of lessons with Andy, including one at 1 AM after he was done with a gig. Still not a day goes by that I don't think of that genius musician and great teacher.