The Search Continues... Part 2

[The Musician's Wife]

:disbelief:

[Demetrius]

Yes it is true, I'm on another mando search as I'm sure lots of other people on here are on also.
My wife is humored by it all, and she's been such a good sport along the way through all the mando madness. She enjoys blogging about it, and she bonds with other spouses who are married to musicians. She'll be posting videos along the way, and it's all in good fun so feel free to chime in with your own stories about your mando searches. I love outside thoughts on this stuff - nothing better than geeking out on mandolin talk..

Dem

[Mandolin Cafe]

Wait, you removed the video... Almost certainly in error. It's on YouTube now so...

:)

Here it is below. For the record, I (the guy that runs the Mandolin Cafe) didn't shut down this (https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?125238-The-search-continues). One of the moderators apparently felt it was time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zgSJk-Ur6Q&feature=youtu.be


I had a feeling this was coming.. I don't mind videos of my mandolin search process being posted but this ones had to go...

Dem

[catmandu2]

Has the term "to be mooched" with its most recent, contemporary referent entered our lexicon yet? For this would be the "mooch" of mandolin-genre videos.

[The Musician's Wife]

I'm sorry about that...I should have explained before taking the video down. We'll be posting other (better!) videos of this new search process and really appreciate the chance to post here. It helps to get feedback from the people who participate on these forums... Thanks so much.

[catmandu2]

I'm sorry about that...I should have explained before taking the video down. We'll be posting other (better!) videos of this new search process and really appreciate the chance to post here. It helps to get feedback from the people who participate on these forums... Thanks so much.

Re the vid: I don't know where you were going (or where this thread is going), but I'm glad you're using your turn signals - a lot of folks ostensibly driving around not knowing what they want are erratic with their turn signals..

I liked the vid - a classic study in existential dread. The driving around is an effective metaphor.

[Demetrius]

I've been feeling A models lately..

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Man, your last escapade had a profound impact on me. I was in the depths of it, going through one after another, and watching your ordeal unfold really was cathartic. A buddy of mine, Barry on here, had a wonderful mandolin I've always really liked. I went after it hard, he finally relented and I have stayed with it. Thanks. There are things to be learned in unexpected places.

[MikeEdgerton]

Wait, you removed the video... Almost certainly in error. It's on YouTube now so...

:)

Here it is below. For the record, I (the guy that runs the Mandolin Cafe) didn't shut down this (https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?125238-The-search-continues). One of the moderators apparently felt it was time.

Not me. I'm into pain.

[sblock]

Well, the video above was moved to YouTube and marked PRIVATE by the owner, so we at the Cafe can't see it. Evidently, Demetrius or his wife no longer wants to let us view it.

If I am not mistaken, this is the same guy who went back and forth on the MC, rather publicly, for weeks on end about his indecision about high-end mandolins, seeking out -- but seemingly ignoring! -- all manner of opinions on the subject from the experts here. After agonizing over several superb candidates, he eventually bought an amazing Gilchrist F5, but promptly returned it for various minor reasons having to do with his dissatisfaction with the setup and finish. Astonishingly, he thought the better of this rash move and then bought it all over again from the very same, highly reputed dealer in California. And now, just a few months later, he has put the Gilchrist up for sale again for $19,500 in the MC Classifieds. He tells us his wife is amused at his behavior, and enjoys blogging about his inability to gain satisfaction, or to make up his mind.

Well, if it were my wife, she would likely have been completely infuriated that I invested nearly $20,000 of our joint savings in a will-o'-the-wisp, just to fuel some kind of insatiable MAS. It's one thing to save up for a long time and finally purchase the instrument of your dreams. It's quite another to constantly churn through the most expensive instruments, selling them (as it would appear) at a loss each time. But hey, perhaps this guy has a source of independent wealth, and $20,000 is just not the same thing to him that it might be to you, or to me? There is no way I'd have $20,000 to spend on a lark if I were a professional musician playing in some small-time band in the Boston area, I reckon. Not unless I were a trust-fund baby or something. Or maybe it's that behavior that seems utterly CRAZY to me makes perfect sense to someone else? Hey, I get MAS, too, but I manage it. And someday I might get a Gilchrist myself. But I need to become a better player and save more money, both of which I'm working hard at!

Then again, maybe he's decided to downsize, and convert that costly Gilchrist F5 back into some badly needed cash, just to stay afloat? In which case, I wonder what the music equivalent might be to the wise old saying "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach!"?? :whistling:

[Charles E.]

I've been feeling A models lately..

Well lets get the party started..........

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/114114#114114

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/114088#114088

[fatt-dad]

what do you have and what are you looking for?

f-d

[GProulx]

Sblock...Why do you care so much if this guy buys a bunch of Mandolin's? I'm honestly just curious.

[Billy Packard]

sblock, I do appreciate much of what you contribute to the forum but your post above sounds somewhere between envy and sour grapes. You should quit worrying about what other people are doing with their money and lives. In our great country we get to do what we want as long as we are able.

Billy

[Demetrius]

Charley, I love that Dude...


Well lets get the party started..........

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/114114#114114

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/114088#114088

[Billy Packard]

Then there are these..

https://gregboyd.com/product/1991-givens-a-6-mandolin/
https://cartervintage.com/collections/mandolins/monteleone

[allenhopkins]

Another ∞ of posts and pages -- the last thread reached 37 pp before life support was turned off -- forthcoming?

My first and only visit to this one.

[pops1]

https://reverb.com/item/5381857-mowry-a-4-14-fret-hybrid-art-deco-wine-burst-mandolin-2011

I have been lusting after this, not sure you want and oval though.

[sblock]

Another ∞ of posts and pages -- the last thread reached 37 pp before life support was turned off -- forthcoming?

My first and only visit to this one.

For those who inquired above, I concur with Allen Hopkins' assessment. The previous thread generated 37 pages before it was closed, during which the OP bought and returned (or re-sold) several costly mandolins, and eventually could not decide about anything, so his wife literally asked the people here on the Cafe to vote on any one of five mandolins that, apparently, the OP could not decide among. I'm not joking! She also posted a video (since removed) of him whining in bed about his indecision. All true.

I agree that is it a free country. I also agree that folks should be entitled to do whatever they like with their own money (provided that no laws are broken and taxes get paid, that is). Furthermore, it's no skin off my back; I have no dog in this fight; use whatever cliche you want to express the sentiment that this is not directly my affair. Or the rest of our affair, either! There's no disputing any of that. But that doesn't mean we should encourage folks to act foolishly, and after reading all 37 pages of the last thread, I sincerely believe that the OP is acting foolishly. I also believe some folks here may have been egging him on, a bit -- this is akin to feeding the troll, but with less of a negative spin. And others here were reading to indulge a bit of schadenfreude. And some here were living out their mandolin fantasies vicariously, I suppose, recommending all their favorite expensive instruments to see what happened.

As the expression goes: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." I won't take the bait this time around, and I recommend that others not take the bait, either. Before you post suggestions and comments to this thread, I'd recommend reading all 37 pages of the previous one ("The Search Continues"), if nothing else but to see what we're dealing with here. There. I've said my peace.

[Ron McMillan]

I won't take the bait this time around

For someone steadfastly refusing to take the bait, you sure are talking about it a lot.

[Mark Seale]

My opinion coming only from behind my keyboard is that Dem has a sound in his head and he hasn't found the instrument that matches it yet. If he has the ability and the support to chase that down at whatever price, good for him. And, if as he says above he's leaning toward A models, then maybe that Gil can be parlayed into a couple of outstanding, but different instruments. Sometimes you hear multiple voices in your head...

Based on his videos and what he's written, I'd be looking for a Monteleone or Heiden.

[carleshicks]

I am enjoying Demetrius' quest for "The Mandolin". I'm not sure why anyone would be annoyed by the details of the search.

[Steve-o]

For those of you who are aggravated by this thread, please just block it or avoid participating. There are obviously plenty of us who play catch and release and obsess about MAS. This guy happens to be a higher roller than many of us, but I find no fault in that. If members are indulging in schadenfreude, they missed the point. Dem seems to enjoy the ride, has the support of his spouse, and a willing group of fellow zealots. If you find this disturbing, please tune out! I find these threads very captivating.

[Demetrius]

Hey Mark! I like your thinking, and its really interesting you mention Monteleone cause Im very intrigued by them.


My opinion coming only from behind my keyboard is that Dem has a sound in his head and he hasn't found the instrument that matches it yet. If he has the ability and the support to chase that down at whatever price, good for him. And, if as he says above he's leaning toward A models, then maybe that Gil can be parlayed into a couple of outstanding, but different instruments. Sometimes you hear multiple voices in your head...

Based on his videos and what he's written, I'd be looking for a Monteleone or Heiden.

[Demetrius]

Hey thank you Mando Mike! I really appreciate the kind words and Im very happy to hear you got a mando that is really speaking to you.

Dem

Man, your last escapade had a profound impact on me. I was in the depths of it, going through one after another, and watching your ordeal unfold really was cathartic. A buddy of mine, Barry on here, had a wonderful mandolin I've always really liked. I went after it hard, he finally relented and I have stayed with it. Thanks. There are things to be learned in unexpected places.

[Demetrius]

what do you have and what are you looking for?

f-d


Hi Fatt-dad, Thank you very much for chiming in. I think what Im looking for is something with a good amount of sustain and complexity. Im thinking Engelmann, or something along those lines.

Dem

[Demetrius]

Then there are these..

https://gregboyd.com/product/1991-givens-a-6-mandolin/
https://cartervintage.com/collections/mandolins/monteleone


Hey Billy my good friend! I have a Givens which Im going to part with, but man that Monteleone they have at Carters sue looks and sounds sweet. I had my friend Marc go over there and take a spin on it and send me the recordings and its a true gem.
I truly love Monteleone mandolins.

[Demetrius]

Pops1, you have great taste in mandolins, that is a beauty right there!

Dem

[Demetrius]

Thanks Carles! And I enjoy your passion for Derringtons and all things mandolin kind Sir. I really admire the bond that you have with that gorgeous F-5 MM.

Dem


I am enjoying Demetrius' quest for "The Mandolin". I'm not sure why anyone would be annoyed by the details of the search.

[Demetrius]

Greetings Steve! Thank you for understanding... And Im truly captivated by the passion that so many people on the mandolin cafe display every day. I mean I don't know about you but one of the first things I do in the morning is log onto this site and just soak it in. Every single day there is new information. Its designed and hosted by people who have this infectious love for the mandolin. It truly is a beautiful thing that we can all come to this one place and just geek out on mando talk. Again, thanks for taking the time to comment, and a good comment at that. It is much appreciated...

Dem


For those of you who are aggravated by this thread, please just block it or avoid participating. There are obviously plenty of us who play catch and release and obsess about MAS. This guy happens to be a higher roller than many of us, but I find no fault in that. If members are indulging in schadenfreude, they missed the point. Dem seems to enjoy the ride, has the support of his spouse, and a willing group of fellow zealots. If you find this disturbing, please tune out! I find these threads very captivating.

[Josh Levine]

Hi Fatt-dad, Thank you very much for chiming in. I think what Im looking for is something with a good amount of sustain and complexity. Im thinking Engelmann, or something along those lines.

Dem

Why not reach out to Mike K and see if he can remake one similar to Joe KW's Nugget?

[Josh Levine]

Man, your last escapade had a profound impact on me. I was in the depths of it, going through one after another, and watching your ordeal unfold really was cathartic. A buddy of mine, Barry on here, had a wonderful mandolin I've always really liked. I went after it hard, he finally relented and I have stayed with it. Thanks. There are things to be learned in unexpected places.

Well whatdya get?

[carleshicks]

This might be your huckleberry. https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/114641#114641

[William Smith]

The Grand Artist at Gruhns is real gnarly so I'm told by my Uncle Gene Johnson, I sent him there to check out a few vintage 5's and he was impressed with the Monte, way different than an old Gibson.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Billy Packard - "..... your post above sounds somewhere between envy and sour grapes...". I agree - it ''could'' sound like that,but,IMHO,it isn't at all.

I have similar feelings when i watch a current UK TV show where folks are trying to find a home in the countryside. Often they'll have in excess of £250,000 UK (sometimes up to £1,000,000). They'll view & inspect homes that i'd die for,only to turn their noses up at them for what i consider very minor reasons. I'd ask them to come & live in my 150 year old house,with it's ongoing 'health problems' to give them a touch of reality !.

Very often folk can buy their dream 'whatever',only to find that in retrospect,it's 'not quite' what they expected,so they sell it & move on. Maybe in retrospect (again,) they'll decide that in letting 'whatever' go,they made a mistake. I've read several threads on here where folk are asking about a specific instrument's whereabouts. Usually one that they let go & would like to have back.
I did that myself when i sold my Gold Star Banjo to a guy who couldn't play a lick !!. I didn't need the cash,but as i'd started playing mandolin,i wasn't playing banjo too much. I should have kept it,as it was a superb sounding banjo,maybe i'd have sold it to a decent player - maybe !.

I know one Cafe member who ordered a top builder's mandolin & waited 3 years for it,only to find that ''to him'',it didn't sound good at all - he promptly sold it & bought a Gilchrist,which did sound good 'to him'. Purely personal taste.

Chris Thile let his 'borrowed' Dude. go & it was sold. Afterwards, he realised that it was so good that he eventually bought it from the new owner.

I just hope that Demetrius achieves his goal & finds 'the' mandolin for him - regardless of our opinions,which are just that !!.

I own a beautiful Ellis "A" style,& i've often wondered that if i traded it in along with another mandolin,for my personal 'dream' mandolin,an Ellis F5,would i be more happy ?. I really get a kick from the fact that although we know & understand that "A" styles can sound 'as good as' "F" styles,they do seem to take a back seat to them - but my 'simple shaped' Ellis "A",sounds so incredibly good,i can't imagine being more happy with an F5,& it would take a lot of cash to change it simply for a different shape,:confused:
Ivan ;)

[William Smith]

I hear ya Ivan. Its a blessing when your happy with a certain mandolin. I have a well played old F-7 conversion I've mentioned and that's a lifer for me, many have came and went that's for sure but I've never considered selling my old gal. Nobody should give Dem grief, he's after a certain something that he'll know it when he hears it. I know he's had a bunch of quality mandolins, don't know if he's had a Grand Artist yet, I know if I could swing it and had loads of cash for a mando collection from H---. I'd be all over the GA at Gruhn Guitars or that really nice Dude A-5 at Shoenberg Guitars-NFI. But I like the old Gibson tones/voices that's why I went for an old 30's fern so that's what I'd rather put my $ in. Some of you like Gils, Nugget, Collings, Ellis the list can go on. Everyone has a personal preference on sound/voice so don't knock someone's quest for what sound they want. Not Kool.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Jwalterweatherman, I ended up with a 2011 Kimble F5. It's funny, I was sure what a I wanted was a very modern sounding mandolin with big frets and a radiused board. Went through a lot of those mandolins. One was a Kimble as well. The Kimble I have now is very Loar-Like. Small frets, flat board, full florida (supposedly only full Florida Will did but I can't be sure of that), my discription of it has always been it reminds me of a young loar. My understanding is Barry asked Will to go more traditional on it than he normally does. Just not what I thought I wanted... but this thing has always spoken to me. I had always always gone back to it in my mind. Barry and I had a tasting at his place when I bought a Heiden F5 (which is a beast of a mandolin- loud, fat, modern, beautiful). I had another Kimble, Barry had a few. I went over to show off my new toy and was enthralled after playing his Kimble. 2 years later after a lot of back and forth, I finally convinced myself it was the one for me and convinced him to part with it. It's been a joy to play.

[fatt-dad]

I think you need a snakehed, Loar-era, A4 with a Virzi. That should address the sustain and the cool factor.

If you actually are focused on an arch-top, f-hole mandolin, I'm not much help. In all honesty, I'd go to somebody like John Hamlett and have him build it for you. If you want to spend more, I'd consider Heiden.

I was drawn to the mandolin through Grisman, Bush and O'Brian. So, the Gibson Sam Bush has always appealed to me. Got the nut width that I like! I'm also drawn to the Collings/Nuggett O'Brian model, if you can find one. . . Seems folks are thinking top of market on the O'Brians.

Where else can we obsess about mandolins? You are in a room of friends, in my mind!

f-d

[multidon]

I for one would like to see this thread continue as it has been! Please, if you don't like this type of discussion, just don't read it or participate! Move on, nothing to see here! Negativity is what closed part one.

In my household, we have experienced this pain multiplied several fold. My wife and I are both musicians, playing multiple instruments. And we are both on a quest for the ultimate (to us) acoustic guitar, electric guitar, electric bass, dulcimer, and in my case mandolin. Over the past 30 years we have bought many instruments. Most of them eventually moved on to others. We usually lost money in the process. Sometimes we broke even or made a modest profit, but not often. My point is, it has been so much fun, I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. Whatever it cost us, it was worth every penny, and then some. The pursuit is extremely pleasurable for both of us. We actually planned vacations around trips to Elderly or Mandolin Brothers (when they were still open). The journey has been educational too. We both have a very keen sense of what we like and don't like in an instrument.

Everybody had interests, and everybody spends money on something. I have trouble understanding the appeal of many activities that some people spend a great deal of money on. My wife and I don't go to Vegas and gamble, we don't go on cruises or other types of lavish vacations and such. But we don't judge others who spend money on such things. Buying and selling instruments is our entertainment. It doesn't make sense to me rain on the parade of folks like us. One mans meat is another mans poison.

[The Musician's Wife]

Re the vid: I don't know where you were going (or where this thread is going), but I'm glad you're using your turn signals - a lot of folks ostensibly driving around not knowing what they want are erratic with their turn signals..

I liked the vid - a classic study in existential dread. The driving around is an effective metaphor.

You sound like an English teacher, catmandu2 - love the idea about driving around as a metaphor for the mando search. Never thought of it that way, but it certainly fits.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

So you are looking for some magical sound. Have you tried different strings? Picks? Techniques? Lessons? Are you certain you actually like mandolins? (In your videos you play in a heavily guitar-inflected style, you seem dissatisfied with the top builders' work, and you muse endlessly about a mysterious 'complexity' of tone that you are unable to find in any mandolin, so I have to wonder.)

Here is my recommendation for an A style. Good luck.


https://youtu.be/pB66agPCXLk

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . My wife is humored by it all . . . . and she bonds with other spouses who are married to musicians. . . .

My wife is amused by us musician wannabees - middle-age-and-up guys (always guys) who wish we were musicians and plunk away furiously and ecstatically with other guys in the same rocky boat.

We have three easy ground rules:

- One instrument/amp/pedal in = One instrument/amp/pedal out.
- Don't expect her sit through gigs by herself.
- No crazies* in the house.

*Drunks, dopers, degenerates, desperados, and bulls in china shops. She's fine with Republicans and Democrats.

[The Musician's Wife]

I think you need a snakehed, Loar-era, A4 with a Virzi. That should address the sustain and the cool factor.

If you actually are focused on an arch-top, f-hole mandolin, I'm not much help. In all honesty, I'd go to somebody like John Hamlett and have him build it for you. If you want to spend more, I'd consider Heiden.

I was drawn to the mandolin through Grisman, Bush and O'Brian. So, the Gibson Sam Bush has always appealed to me. Got the nut width that I like! I'm also drawn to the Collings/Nuggett O'Brian model, if you can find one. . . Seems folks are thinking top of market on the O'Brians.

Where else can we obsess about mandolins? You are in a room of friends, in my mind!

f-d

Hey, fatt-dad! You're pretty dead-on about what Dem should get. He's been talking about a Virzi for awhile now. He usually loves engelmann-topped instruments, though...

I feel like both his Gil and the Givens have strong elements he's specifically looking for, and they're basically perfect in just about every way, but for some reason, he still has "the itch." I think Dem has a great eye for detail and picks beautiful instruments, but maybe the visual perfection of a piece sometimes distracts him from that complex sound he keeps searching for. To me, an instrument can just be more or less a hunk of wood as long as it feels and sounds like home. I know this isn't the piano cafe, so I'll be brief with my example - I found a grand piano a few months back that didn't look like much, but it was literally the best feeling and sounding piano I've ever played - I've been playing since I was 7 years old, and giving lessons on and off in recent years. The neat part about finding an instrument like this is that it felt like I was discovering a diamond-in-the-rough because it wasn't something the best piano player in the world would necessarily want or something known to the piano-playing masses as "the one to get," but it suited me. It was like we found each other.

Anyway, long story short... I think Dem needs to be looking for an older sound, with a engelmann top, and a Virzi. And it probably wouldn't hurt for him to play a bunch of these mandos blind-folded!

[William Smith]

I agree on the virzi, A lot of people, pickers/collectors shy away because they want loud like a street bus! But I find the virzi on the ones I've heard played "never played one myself" full of strange tonal sounds-sweet! That's why I'm having The Great Randy Wood who has a few of my old mandolins at the moment, a 34 F-7 that's just getting a 5 scale maple neck with replica inlays and shaved tone bars, and my 58 F-5 that's getting a new neck and Loar re-graduation, Loar tone bar placement, and a VIRZI installed. I always wanted a virzi mando, And the 58 F-5 is perfect for it because I bought it real cheap because it already had a poor job re-neck! And if you know me I love conversion jobs. Old Wood and original finish is it for me, and the conversions make some of the best mandolins IMHO! Great tonal qualities, volume, playability etc...Everyone I've had blows away most high end mandolins costing 20G+! So I will have a Virzi F-5 in the future. Yep very excited, almost can't stand the wait!

[barry]

Jwalterweatherman, I ended up with a 2011 Kimble F5. It's funny, I was sure what a I wanted was a very modern sounding mandolin with big frets and a radiused board. Went through a lot of those mandolins. One was a Kimble as well. The Kimble I have now is very Loar-Like. Small frets, flat board, full florida (supposedly only full Florida Will did but I can't be sure of that), my discription of it has always been it reminds me of a young loar. My understanding is Barry asked Will to go more traditional on it than he normally does. Just not what I thought I wanted... but this thing has always spoken to me. I had always always gone back to it in my mind. Barry and I had a tasting at his place when I bought a Heiden F5 (which is a beast of a mandolin- loud, fat, modern, beautiful). I had another Kimble, Barry had a few. I went over to show off my new toy and was enthralled after playing his Kimble. 2 years later after a lot of back and forth, I finally convinced myself it was the one for me and convinced him to part with it. It's been a joy to play.

Just to clarify, it was the only fully-fretted, full Florida extension. ...."Was" being the operative word. ;)

[Billy Packard]

Good GRIEF!

Sure enough, my MAS is surging.

I love and will always keep the Gilchrist A3 Steve made to order for me in 1992 even though my taste has moved on to a brighter sound.

The '07 Weber Fern that Bruce reradiated in 2012 is very close, but...there are issues.

DANG, I have to get serious about looking again. All of the tantalizing comments above about the various wonderful variations in the Mandolin world have me salivating.

My thing is, I've played some top tier mandolins that were super-nice but not for me for one reason or another. I want to actually sit and play the instrument, get blown away, then move mountains to get it.

(Sigh...) (The pursuit of a perfect love.)

Billy

[Josh Levine]

Jwalterweatherman, I ended up with a 2011 Kimble F5. It's funny, I was sure what a I wanted was a very modern sounding mandolin with big frets and a radiused board. Went through a lot of those mandolins. One was a Kimble as well. The Kimble I have now is very Loar-Like. Small frets, flat board, full florida (supposedly only full Florida Will did but I can't be sure of that), my discription of it has always been it reminds me of a young loar. My understanding is Barry asked Will to go more traditional on it than he normally does. Just not what I thought I wanted... but this thing has always spoken to me. I had always always gone back to it in my mind. Barry and I had a tasting at his place when I bought a Heiden F5 (which is a beast of a mandolin- loud, fat, modern, beautiful). I had another Kimble, Barry had a few. I went over to show off my new toy and was enthralled after playing his Kimble. 2 years later after a lot of back and forth, I finally convinced myself it was the one for me and convinced him to part with it. It's been a joy to play.

Congrats. Will Kimble sure knows how to make some good mandolins. I would love to have one of his good ones. Any recordings of it out there on the internets yet?

[Billy Packard]

Carleshicks...

That Nugget you refer to has come up for sale so many times. For the years I've been a member here I've seen it over and over--And now it has been refinished with a sunburst, (it used to be blond.) I know for certain because the back plate is uniquely distinctive. It also is priced the highest I've seen yet.

Anyone else noticed this mandolin come and go?

Billy

[Billy Packard]

Dem, check this out,

http://www.carmelmusic.com/stocklist/scanned%20photos/Kimble_A5_22_F.jpg

Billy

[fatt-dad]

. . . nevermind.

Go with Gilchrist. Now I'm thinking a model 3 would be appropriate? Maybe ask for Engelmann?

I'm also sort of drawn to Duff mandolins.

Recalibrating. . . A snakehead A4 with Virzi and a Duff A5. May have to send the Englemann to Australia or get some local wood that's close enough to Englemann?

f-d

[Br1ck]

At some point you have to realize that a design feature enhances one aspect at the detriment of another, and you're looking to find the right compromise.

[Billy Packard]

Brick, so true.

I like to tell the story about when I was visiting with Stephen Gilchrist at the Carmel Music store back in the early '90's. I asked Stephen if the difference between the F model and the A model was just cosmetic, (as I suspected at the time.) He resounded with a strongly emphasized "Yes". He went on to say the points, scroll and headstock didn't affect the sound but all the other aspects did.

I have always loved the simplicity and elegance of a nicely appointed A model.

Billy

[Teak]

At some point you have to realize that a design feature enhances one aspect at the detriment of another, and you're looking to find the right compromise.

No kidding.

Not too long ago I saw where the OP was listing both the Gilchrist that presumably ended the first search, and a Givens A6 that I suspect is this one. http://themusicemporium.com/mandolins/givens-a6-1992

So the search is now for an "old sounding" mandolin with Virzi?

I have owned a Givens A5 since 1979 when it arrived in the mail from Sandpoint, ID, where Bob was building at the time. I am pretty sure that mandolin has a Sitka spruce top because I talked with Bob by phone when I ordered it. I also own a 2015 Black A2z with Virzi (Englemann top) that has the specs of the old Gibson A2z, but is a new build of course.

The Givens has about the same sustain as the Black with Virzi. The difference I suspect is due to the Givens top being more broken in and, of course, to Bob's expertise in building A models. The Virzi helps project the sound out of the oval hole better than if sans Verzi, but the newer wood is still stiff and not as warm as the Givens.

I doubt too many of us amateurs can tell the difference between a Sitka top, Englemann top, and etc. The age of the wood also makes a difference, and so does the humidity, room, microphone, skill of musician, time of day, sunspot cycle, and etc. as stated by many in several threads.

I doubt the OP will find a mandolin he is happy with. That Givens A6 sounded very nice in the youtube video that the OP posted. I would have gone with that and then practiced until the sound was better.

Just my $0.02. Hadn't posted in this thread before, and probably won't again.

[ccravens]

I just don't understand why people who don't like or agree with this thread won't stop posting on it!

:disbelief:

Let the guy have his fun. If you don't like it or agree, just ignore.

Like changing the channel on the T.V. I don't go on the Home Shopping Network channel and watch it just so I can complain and comment on how awful it is!

:)

[catmandu2]

You sound like an English teacher, catmandu2 - love the idea about driving around as a metaphor for the mando search. Never thought of it that way, but it certainly fits.

Ha I was kinda joking a little there, though the metaphor is apt. Seriously though, I think what the guy with the mandolin (Dem?) says typifies what many are struggling with: "I don't know what I want." It's an awfully big world full of artifact; without some idea of what one wants, sampling and ruminating can become a perpetual exercise in futility. Without an idea of what one wants, every *other* mandolin will seem seductive. In which case the endless game of pursuit, acquisition, repeat has no resolve. There's nothing inherently wrong in this - plenty of folks apparently enjoy it, and it too is an apt metaphor of life. But if you're going to play the game, mandolins are a wonderful object to pursue.

*I've played the game plenty myself, though a variation - I had to go through every instrument I could get my hands on to refine my pursuit, and only through time has there been attrition.

[Paul Kotapish]

I find this all pretty amusing and I am, in fact, sympathetic to the endless search for the holy grail. I know a number of great mandolinists who are trapped in this cycle and are constantly buying, selling, trading, and swapping world-class instruments (Loars, Gilchrists, Nuggets, Wiens, etc.) for the "one."

I manage to keep my own itch under control with the realization that there is no "one."

Every mandolin sounds different in different circumstances based on a huge range of factors —the acoustics of the room, the season and local weather, the age of the strings, the pick, ad nauseum. The key is to find the one that sounds good to you under the circumstances you can generally control, and realize that on occasion your darling is going to let you down.

This is particularly true for gigging musicians, all of whom know that some nights the sound system and the room acoustics make their mandolin sound like the voice of God, and other nights the setup reduces their hatchet's voice to an irritating Olive Oyl. This is true for the greats as well as the emerging.

And I know a great fiddler who nearly gave up on his instrument until a luthier he was working with helped him figure out that the fan he kept on in his music room was distorting the sound of his instrument. Once he turned off the fan, he was back in love with his fiddle.

I'm in the "what's the big deal" camp on all of this. If you can afford to lose a little money here and there on the search and you are having fun doing it, keep looking!

As far as I can tell, even relatively high-end MAS is still a lot cheaper than a passion for cars, or boats, or motorcycles, all of which will eat up much more money than any but the rarest of vintage instruments and with just a few exceptions, depreciate in value far more quickly and dramatically. I could buy and sell a lot of mandolins for what my neighbor has poured into just maintaining and mooring his sailboat, for example.

[red7flag]

I remember reading through the first thread and thinking that it read like a sit-com. Yet, like many of you pointed out, the first thread and to some extent this one, emphasizes the dilemmas of choice we all suffer through. I think what makes these threads almost surreal is the accelerated, almost manic pace of the drama. While most of us agonize over mandolin choices, make purchases, regret purchases, sell, regret selling, these dramas, at least for me occurs over months, sometimes years. In these threads, the huge changes seemed to be occurring every couple of days or in some cases, daily. It is almost as if Dem was acting out our thoughts with no restraint. We got a chance to watch him buy that Gil, Dude that we all wished we could. We got the chance to see that beauty get returned. Well you know the drill. It was like watching ourselves act out all our mandolin wishes with no restraint. I found it entertaining, but sometimes a bit strained. Not sure if this is my last post or not. Keep us entertained Dem.

[fatt-dad]

(Nobody asked, but here I go. . . )

I think the chase to find the perfect mandolin is a red herring. Shopping to find the instrument that will be the, "End all!" kind of means we don't know what we're doing. I've chased all sorts of sounds, price points, etc. I learned that if you really want to play the instrument, you must learn to be happy with what you have. Otherwise, you'll spend unnecessary amounts of time obsessing rather than playing. Throughout all my journeys I could have been perfectly happy with my A3 - but wasn't.

Now I'm perfectly happy with my instruments. Just not as happy with my abilities. It takes hard work to get happy with one's abilities. Buying instruments is not the answer. That said, buying instruments is fun and a different reward. It's no substitute for hard work and practice though!

If the front office allowed, I'd likely get a Model 3 though. I mean why not go to the budget line at the top of the pyramid?

f-d

[William Smith]

There is no end all mandolin in the mandolin playing and collecting world at least for me, sure I found some keepers but all are different in many ways tonally, volume wise, beauty wise, and its just plain fun catching and releasing them if one can. As was pointed out it's sure cheaper than some hobbies or habits-good and bad.

[barry]

At some point you have to realize that a design feature enhances one aspect at the detriment of another, and you're looking to find the right compromise.

Correct. Which means Demetrius should not be searching for one ultimate mandolin.

He should be searching for at least three.

He needs one warm sounding one to play solo. One with stout trebles to cut through an ensemble. And one oval hole to remind him not to buy any more oval holes.

At least, that's the way it worked for me. :mandosmiley:

[Teak]

Correct. Which means Demetrius should not be searching for one ultimate mandolin.

He should be searching for at least three.



Good point. I own three. Don't have MAS at this point, and don't want to eat cat food during retirement so I will probably not go looking for number 4.

However ... there is an excellent mandolinist on the west coast (Tim Connell) who I understand does a broad variety of mando music and he uses only one mandolin. In fact, he was interviewed here on Mandolin Cafe. https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/content.php?364-Tim-Connell-Interview

Maybe Tim found the Holy Grail mandolin. (Arrow G-Model mandolin made by Paul Lestock from Mosier, Oregon)

[NursingDaBlues]

There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. ~Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 – 1946

"Best is a very personal thing. You gotta play it to love it. And you'll always think there's one better. And there is." ~Unknown

If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking. ~George S. Patton

Thanks to the various forum members who have offered these very pertinent thoughts in their signatures.

[red7flag]

Correct. Which means Demetrius should not be searching for one ultimate mandolin.

He should be searching for at least three.

He needs one warm sounding one to play solo. One with stout trebles to cut through and ensemble. And one oval hole to remind him not to buy any more oval holes.

At least, that's the way it worked for me. :mandosmiley:

Barry came to the same conclusion that I did. I found that my Ellis is my highest level and really have not desire to upgrade. For me personally, the Ellis fits me more than those great $20k instruments that I love playing at Carters, but would rather have mine to keep. My MAS has changed to reach out for niches that expand my musical pallet and not reach for that nirvana mandolin. So I put all mine together to get that ahhh feeling. I have also found that I have moved more to genre than style. My last three are all A style (Nyberg is Sobell style, however).

[The Musician's Wife]

Mando musings while cruising... 3 video clips for your viewing pleasure.

Thanks to catmandu2 for inspiring the driving-around-as-mando-search metaphor!

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/home/mando-musings-while-cruising

[Charlieshafer]

(Nobody asked, but here I go. . . )

I think the chase to find the perfect mandolin is a red herring. Shopping to find the instrument that will be the, "End all!" kind of means we don't know what we're doing.
f-d

Oh, boy do I agree with this! I have spoken with many a pro who says that tone is all in the right wrist. Or in the grip. Or in the pick. Less so the mandolin. One man's hoss is another man's overpriced trophy. How many years dod Andy Statman play that beat old A3? "The Ultimate" anything is just a placebo. I've heard up close Joe K Walsh pre- and post- Nugget find, and he sounds just like Joe K Walsh, which is sensational.

On the flip side, searching for and playing lots of different instruments is a lot of fun, so as part of the entire "hobby" of being in music, it's great. Like many, I have more than I'll ever need, and if something great comes along, I'll have that, too, checkbook willing. But as to anything remotely "ultimate"? Doesn't exist.

[The Musician's Wife]

Here are the videos, just to make things easier...

TMW


https://youtu.be/FYd4jL6qtu8


https://youtu.be/Hz1bvSKCC7A


https://youtu.be/Erfny9LhuqQ

[barry]

Mando musings while cruising... 3 video clips for your viewing pleasure.

Thanks to catmandu2 for inspiring the driving-around-as-mando-search metaphor!

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/home/mando-musings-while-cruising


Wonderful!!!
I particularly enjoy how you egg him on. You know exactly which buttons to press.
I must ask you, what did Demetrius obsess about during the, albeit brief, period when he was content with his Gilchrist?

[Billy Packard]

Heh, Heh...

I remember just after I had gotten the Gibson F4 Hybrid and I was visiting my dear Aunt Jane. I'm gushing about how great the thing sounds when she stink-eyes me and says, "What are you talking about, it sounds like a mandolin already."

A little perspective goes a loong way sometimes.

Billy

[Demetrius]

I'm glad my sweet wife is finding some humor in my MAS. She puts up with soooo much...
160329

[9lbShellhamer]

I think it's pretty fun to follow along here...reading reviews of new mandolins and hearing some of them along the way.

This is the longest I've gone in recovery of MAS. I bought my Gibson F5 Custom 15 months ago and paired with my Collings they are perfect companions and I haven't contemplated seriously purchasing anything else. They are opposite enough that they compliment one another in tone... The Collings is loud and resonant. The Gibson has better note clarity but isn't as brash, bold and bright. They both cut but are total opposites in many regards. Both are well loved. I need them both to be fulfilled, but I am.:grin:

The only mandolin I still long for realistically is a Heiden A5. I played one specifically at Carter Vintage and it never left my mind...It beat out everything, even some Heiden F's in my mind. I'll spend years trying to find one like it once I'm ready to make the plunge. (which I'm not yet) The best description I have of that Heiden is that it was as loud and open as my Collings, but with the note clarity and crispness of the Gibson I own. :)

[oliverkollar]

After watching the videos of the OP explaining the ONE, stream of consciousness, all I can say is this is the most amazing train wreck of a thread.......

:popcorn:

YMMV

[MontanaMatt]

A MAS resistance measure, or more accurately, a means of preventing releasing mandolins, is to order custom mandolins, and have the Luthier put your name on the label. It creates a level of bond you don't want to break. It's not just a sound, it's your sound.

[The Musician's Wife]

Wonderful!!!
I particularly enjoy how you egg him on. You know exactly which buttons to press.
I must ask you, what did Demetrius obsess about during the, albeit brief, period when he was content with his Gilchrist?

Oh, goodness. Let's see...

First, there was the Danocaster. I, myself, am pretty partial to electric guitars, so this wasn't too painful ;) ...and yet, I'm reminded that he bought and returned a Rocketfire before pulling the trigger on the Danocaster, so there were some characteristic hems and haws regarding the electric guitar search (albeit nothing quite like this mandolin hunt).

Next, there was the amp. Dem tells me the one he bought is a 1957 Fender tweed amp, but I'm sure there are more specifics about it that I don't fully understand... With this purchase, it was down to two Fender amps, so - of course - he bought one and returned it before settling down with the other. The one he ended up with does look perfectly paired with the Danocaster.

Recently, he was going back and forth about various delay pedals for the Dano/Fender amp situation. I decided to cut that particular search off at the knees and just bought him a Strymon El Capistan for his birthday...luckily, he was pretty pleased with the pedal...

UNTIL...he was quickly distracted by a long-lusted after leather gig bag he discovered for his acoustic guitar - literally on the same day I gave him the El Capistan pedal. I was sort of left sputtering, "Yeah, but... don't you like the pedal?!" I must admit the gig bag is pretty, though, and it does fit his parlor guitar like a glove. Sigh. It does seem it was meant to be.

Anyway. Maybe I should have continued on writing the blog to include these other brief obsessions?

[Mike Scott]

After reading this thread and a good part of the old one, watching the vids, I think you should just get a Rogue, and set it up yourself using R. Meldrum's e book and call it good. Of course I'm joking around but couldn't resist.......

[Demetrius]

A MAS resistance measure, or more accurately, a means of preventing releasing mandolins, is to order custom mandolins, and have the Luthier put your name on the label. It creates a level of bond you don't want to break. It's not just a sound, it's your sound.

Matt Matt Matt.... You know what? You're onto something...
I ordered a parlor guitar in 2005 which was essentially is my own signature model. I haven't longed for another acoustic since. Yeh Ive been tempted here and there but that guitar is really what I formed my style around. Im really glad you posted that cause I really feel there is a tremendous amount of weight in that thought.

Dem

[Demetrius]

I am going to say this. If someone can track down this Brentrup "Lloyd" A5 for me, the search would be done. I played it years ago and It still stands as the best mandolin Ive ever played. It was everything my ears wanted to hear... Also, I wish a virzi could be installed after the fact, Id shove one in my Gil..
160331

[carleshicks]

I figured out what you need, just get the 24 A-4 Virzi and the Distressed Master Model at TME. Sell the Gil and the Givens and use the change to take that pot stirring wife of yours on a great date. She is playing along with your obsession quit well.
Then you would have stable pretty much just like mine and I couldn't be happier.

160333

[pops1]

I am going to say this. If someone can track down this Brentrup "Lloyd" A5 for me, the search would be done. I played it years ago and It still stands as the best mandolin Ive ever played. It was everything my ears wanted to hear... Also, I wish a virzi could be installed after the fact, Id shove one in my Gil..
160331

I play a Brentrup A and have not seen another one for sale in the ten years I have had it. I love this mandolin. With that said remember this:

"The line starts here and goes to there. If you take you time and remember your place you too may go from here to there."

Some of the fun is in the journey let's not forget that.

[Demetrius]

Carles! I love it man..

I figured out what you need, just get the 24 A-4 Virzi and the Distressed Master Model at TME. Sell the Gil and the Givens and use the change to take that pot stirring wife of yours on a great date. She is playing along with your obsession quit well.
Then you would have stable pretty much just like mine and I couldn't be happier.

160333

[barry]

Demetrius,

As your wife informed us, you have recently encountered a bout of electric guitar GAS. Based on my own recent experience with such, I will inform you of the absolute and final cure for MAS. An AB763 Fender Twin Reverb with JBL D120's. After pumping the new Danocaster through one of those babies, it won't matter what any mandolins sound like. You can't hear them anyway.

[Don Grieser]

Let's see...you had a Gilchrist with an Englemann top and you had Gilchrist retop it with red spruce. Now you want a mandolin with Englemann. What am I missing here?

[MontanaMatt]

Matt Matt Matt.... You know what? You're onto something...
I ordered a parlor guitar in 2005 which was essentially is my own signature model. I haven't longed for another acoustic since. Yeh Ive been tempted here and there but that guitar is really what I formed my style around. Im really glad you posted that cause I really feel there is a tremendous amount of weight in that thought.

Dem
You don't replace them, just add to the collection, and sooner or later your house gets too small!

[Ivan Kelsall]

Reading this thread,i'm reminded of the saying - 'Tis better to journey than to arrive'. In other words,the anticipation of ''arriving'',or in this case, finding THE perfect mandolin is more enjoyable than actually finding it - although i have personal doubts about that being the case.

In this case,the very best thing that Demetrius can do,is to play every mandolin within his 'ideal mandolin bracket' to see (hear) what turns up. Even then,somewhere down the line,i'm convinced that there will be other mandolins that he hears which will kick start MAS all over again - unless he gets to play every mandolin in the USA !!!. I was 100% satisfied with my Stelling banjo & had been for several years - until !!. I played a pre-war Gibson TB-6 conversion in Owensboro in 1992. It was shabby,with a scruffy skin on it,old strings & an almost worn out bridge,but it rang like a bell !. It's still the finest banjo i've ever heard to this day. I had my Stelling with me,& the thought of carting 2 banjos round the US for a further 2 weeks wasn't instantly appealing. I sat & played it for around 20 minutes or so,& by the time i'd finished,there was a queue to play it. I went back later in the day with the intention of buying it,but it had gone. The bottom line - there's always something 'better',or different enough to have great appeal.

For me,at 72 years of age -'time' is an important factor. If i was say,20 years younger,i might indeed go for an Ellis F5,but right now,my lowly Ellis "A" style is more than satisfying. For those who are fortunate enough to be able to search for the ultimate mandolin - enjoy the journey !,
Ivan;)

[dang]

Let's see...you had a Gilchrist with an Englemann top and you had Gilchrist retop it with red spruce. Now you want a mandolin with Englemann. What am I missing here?

Wait, is that true? What does that cost?!? And how long does it take?

Who really wants a virzi???

Can you post a video so we can hear how the current one sounds when you play it?


Those questions stood out in my mind as I read this thread...

And I am another with 3 mandolins and I like the theory of needing 3 acoustic mandolins (and an electric, and an octave, and a mandola, some mics, recording gear, a small PA...)

[T.D.Nydn]

I'm sure in the future there will be ..part 3,part 4 part 5,etc....

[Teak]

I am going to say this. If someone can track down this Brentrup "Lloyd" A5 for me, the search would be done. I played it years ago and It still stands as the best mandolin Ive ever played. It was everything my ears wanted to hear... Also, I wish a virzi could be installed after the fact, Id shove one in my Gil..
160331

Okay, here's a long shot, but maybe it'll work.

For a long time there was a Brentrup F5 on consignment at The Podium/Guitar Rodeo in Minneapolis, MN. It sat at $22k for a while and then got a price drop to $21k. TP/GR is now permanently closed https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=the+podium+guitar+rodeo+minneapolis+mn&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 but I doubt that mandolin sold before the store closed down. It might be worth a phone call or two to Minneapolis. If you could track down Brentrup, he might have gotten that mandolin back from the store.

I played that mandolin briefly several years ago, but I am not into F styles and the neck was too narrow for my liking (1"). But it is a Brentrup and must be highly valued, eh?

~o)

[pops1]

I have Han's phone number and last time I talked to him, if I remember right, he has an F5 for sale. That was a couple month ago though.

[Demetrius]

I'm sure in the future there will be ..part 3,part 4 part 5,etc....

Most likely...

[Hallmark498]

Just last week I was thinking back on what fun the thread/journey was when Demetrius went on the hunt for the Gil/Givens, believe he ended up with both?

Fifteen-ish years ago (were getting old) I met D and his wife at the Garland Square jam in Texas (believe he had a Dude F5 then!) Very nice people and we have bumped into each other over the years at different places. I enjoy the journey that music has brought to my life, isn't that why we are all here?

That I'm aware of, never met Sblock but I get where he is coming from. If this were a novel, his character would be the person you love to hate.

Back to the topic; Would an older (1979) Monteleone F5 loar copy be in the running?

[mtucker]

Careful! You're not completely innocent at this!! ;);)


Let's see...you had a Gilchrist with an Englemann top and you had Gilchrist retop it with red spruce. Now you want a mandolin with Englemann. What am I missing here?

[Jeff Mando]

I agree with the others -- life/music is about the journey. :) (happy thought for the day!)

[red7flag]

As many hear know, I had an 2008 Ellis F5 that I got from Gruhn's. I loved that instrument. For some odd reason, I got it in my head that I wanted a new MM (I like to distress my own). I called a friend and he had a RSDMM (Ricky Skaggs Distressed Master Model). This friend highly recommended this instrument and I bought it sight unseen and put my Ellis on consignment. The RSDMM was beautiful sounding, Loar like. My only criticism was that I found the neck a bit too narrow. But,,,, that famous but, I missed the Ellis. One day after playing tennis, I called Walter to take the Ellis off consignment and he said I was just going to call you, the Ellis is sold. I was crushed. After a couple of days, I called Tom Ellis and ordered a new Ellis F5 and put the RSDMM on consignment. This was a teaching moment and lesson learned. Now I focus more on the tone I am drawing than the tone of the instrument I am playing. This is not to discount the instrument. As you can see my menagerie continues to grow, just in a different direction. I was once told that there are a lot of ways up the mountain, just make sure the one you take goes up.

[William Smith]

On a side note Red7Flag what was the nut width on the Skaggs? was it smaller than 1 1/8? I really would like a distressed but after seeing the recent Vessel Loar copy, I don't know. Them violin guys got it going on building mandolins. Just saying MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmm

[red7flag]

On a side note Red7Flag what was the nut width on the Skaggs? was it smaller than 1 1/8? I really would like a distressed but after seeing the recent Vessel Loar copy, I don't know. Them violin guys got it going on building mandolins. Just saying MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmm

The nut width was 1 1/16", just that little bit smaller than was comfortable for me, but not by much. 1 1/8" and I might still have it. Most of my friends thought I was insane as they thought it was the best sounding mandolin of any I ever had. Maybe they're right, but the Ellis just speaks to me. BTW, I had a Chris Stanley F5, that had much the same Loar tone, but with a more comfortable neck. I miss that mandolin more than the RSDMM.

[mtucker]

Im thinking Engelmann, or something along those lines.

Dem
You could always write Steve, he might have a special stash and could dial you in just the way you want it...

[Hallmark498]

You could always write Steve, he might have a special stash and could dial you in just the way you want it...

I just had MAS, this photo might make me fall of the wagon AGAIN!

[catmandu2]

Demetrius,

As your wife informed us, you have recently encountered a bout of electric guitar GAS. Based on my own recent experience with such, I will inform you of the absolute and final cure for MAS. An AB763 Fender Twin Reverb with JBL D120's. After pumping the new Danocaster through one of those babies, it won't matter what any mandolins sound like. You can't hear them anyway.

Ya

There *are* cures for this. :)

*MW, for the record I've seen only just a bit of the new vids. But I liked the first/original more - it had mandolin, angst, dread, drama and climax (of a sort).

[The Musician's Wife]

A video clip for those of you out of work for the day...

Thanks to Empire Guitars in Providence, Rhode Island for letting us record Dem testing out these beautiful mandos...

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/home/exploring-the-world-of-snakeheads-and-virzis


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHEnEmBV1FI&feature=em-upload_owner

TMW

[barry]

I hope you had an enjoyable outing. However, that is not your mandolin. It's especially telling when you say, " I don't even know what to play on it."
When you find the right one, inspiration pours out effortlessly.

[Don Grieser]

Careful! You're not completely innocent at this!! ;);)

I have no idea what you could possibly be talking about. :))

[Demetrius]

So true..

I hope you had an enjoyable outing. However, that is not your mandolin. It's especially telling when you say, " I don't even know what to play on it."
When you find the right one, inspiration pours out effortlessly.

[Billy Packard]

Hey Dem

Turn your phone horizontally and you get a much wider view....

jus sayn

Billy

[barry]

So true..

Hey Demetrius- I sent you a message via Private Messenger.

[Charles E.]

Here is a modern A-style with a Virzi by Mike Black........

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/113653#113653

NFI

[Demetrius]

Hi Charles, I was wondering about that one It sounds nice in the videos, I much prefer it to the non virzi one.


Here is a modern A-style with a Virzi by Mike Black........

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/113653#113653

NFI

[Demetrius]

I know its hard to fully tell from the video but this is the tonal characteristic Im looking for.
Despite the low quality video you can still tell its strong points..


https://youtu.be/AT3sQjCFMgw

[William Smith]

That virzi A-4 I like! I sure wouldn't mind having one with a virzi, Its too bad that Gibson didn't elevate the boards on those. I'll be having one in the future in my old 58 F-5, I sure hope it has that different sound characteristic like the A-4 but still the power and clarity of a carefully graduated F-5 by Randy Wood!

[Mark Seale]

Always this:

GB8JGnR7dq4

hBWj54aKc-I

And what do you know... https://reverb.com/item/3888185-gilchrist-f-5-c-1996-blonde

[Demetrius]

Yes! Yes! Yes!
Its an engelmann too.. Personally I wouldn't pay $22,500 for it though. I would trade mine even for it, but of course if it were a private sale. Theres no sense in that type of deal for a retailer...



Always this:

GB8JGnR7dq4

hBWj54aKc-I

And what do you know... https://reverb.com/item/3888185-gilchrist-f-5-c-1996-blonde

[Demetrius]

We were going for Bruce Lee, kung fu movie effect... :))


Hey Dem

Turn your phone horizontally and you get a much wider view....

jus sayn

Billy

[MontanaMatt]

I know its hard to fully tell from the video but this is the tonal characteristic Im looking for.
Despite the low quality video you can still tell its strong points..


https://youtu.be/AT3sQjCFMgw
I believe the elusive tone quality you seek is called pick click on a Florida!

[Demetrius]

Has anyone seen these beautiful beasts?

https://www.sorensenstrings.com/the-ax-a-style-mandolin

https://www.sorensenstrings.com/the-sorensen-fx-mandolin

[ccravens]

That Dude sounds amazing.

But I can't help it that pick click bothers me!

[The Musician's Wife]

That Dude sounds amazing.

But I can't help it that pick click bothers me!

I agree - about both! I really like the sound of a lot of Dudenbostels, but the clicking throws me off a little bit.

[William Smith]

Its them ridiculous thick picks people use!

[Charles E.]

Has anyone seen these beautiful beasts?

https://www.sorensenstrings.com/the-ax-a-style-mandolin

https://www.sorensenstrings.com/the-sorensen-fx-mandolin

I had a chance to play several of Steve's mandolins at last years IBMA, including the AX. Steve is a very clever builder and makes a great alternative to the classic A and F styles. He should be here in Raleigh in September for the next one.

[barry]

If it is a Dude you seek, the current market is offering at least 5 to choose from. The F5 at Elderly is only one serial number away from the one in the video. It is also Engelmann topped.

[CES]

Dude A and F in the classifieds this morning...

And, I really liked the Virzi Gibson in the video, but agree it couldn't be my one and only. Which is why I have 6 mandolins ;) I'd love to have one that would be perfect for everything, but don't know that it's out there. A Giacomel I played at Gruhn's comes closest, I think, but if I had it, I'd still want an oval hole option, a resonator, and the e-mando. Geez, I have a problem! :)):mandosmiley:

[Nick Gellie]

Order a Collings MT2 with an Engelmann Spruce top or a Northfield Classic A model with the same top. Can't go wrong. Save yourself a packet.

I have a Collings MT and I am getting back my Northfield model M - both Engelmann Spruce topped.

Or if you want an F-model get the 5bar Northfield Engelmann Spruce topped mandolin. Mike Marshall plays it in preference to his Loar these days.

[Demetrius]

I really want Dude #63... That is what it really all just comes down to.

[barry]

I really want Dude #63... That is what it really all just comes down to.

In that case, we need to start a new thread. "The Quest to Buy Dude #63"

[Demetrius]

It was for sale but the gentleman decided he could not go through with it... :(
Maybe in time he will change his mind? He has a Monteleone that he says gets most of the action, which is why he contemplated selling the Dude. Great guy, had a nice time talking to him. I was suppose to go to his house with my wife on my birthday to check it out. That morning he got cold feet and said he just really can't at this point. I don't blame him but man does it still sting, I could almost taste it...

"The Quest to Buy Dude #63" I like that...


In that case, we need to start a new thread. "The Quest to Buy Dude #63"

[William Smith]

What about that Dude F-5 that's for sale by Eric Kilborn? I may have that name wrong in the classifieds? Elderly also has a nice Dude F-5 and the one Dude A-5 I messaged you about from Shoenbergs? I think that A-5 is sweet for an a model but I like the scroll what can I say, but if it sounds great who cares? I've owned a lot of A-5ish mandolins, the best were 2 Birdseye back and sides, red spruce top Collings MT2-V's! but they just didn't have the it factor for me but that A-5 Dude has it going on! NFI just trying to lend a helping hand.

[Mark Seale]

An Italian spruce MT2V will be very Monteleone like.

[Nick Gellie]

An Italian spruce MT2V will be very Monteleone like.


Yip. I agree. And you will have money to burn in your pocket.

[Nick Gellie]

Demetrius

The way I see it you will get to the same point with a Dude as you have with your Gilchrist F-5. I would settle for a Collings MT-2V with an Italian Spruce top. If I had the money and the inclination that is what I would get.

I really think you need to get on just playing the mandolin and not worrying about tone. You can get that with technique and the right pick.

[Nick Gellie]

And I am making an A-5 with a European Spruce top. Can't wait to see how it will turn out.

[Demetrius]

Here's Gil!

Before
(Mind you, the original set up on this was awful. The fretboard was a tight radius but the bridge top was not really radiused at all..

https://youtu.be/KfaC7nOm2_I

After

https://youtu.be/hiOr75InKh0

[barry]

Demetrius -
Do you have any clips to post of that one in its' prior, pre-re-topped, form? I only recall one clip of you playing it quietly, early in the morning with the family asleep. That video seems to have been removed. I would like to hear a comparison.

[Demetrius]

Hey Barry,

Look above man! It just so happens to be that I did have a video of me playing that same song, and Horribly" on The Gil with the old engelmann top...


Demetrius -
Do you have any clips to post of that one in its' prior, pre-re-topped, form? I only recall one clip of you playing it quietly, early in the morning with the family asleep. That video seems to have been removed. I would like to hear a comparison.

[Mandobar]

Hate to say it, but I liked the engelmann tone a lot better.

[barry]

Hate to say it, but I liked the engelmann tone a lot better.

I agree. And, apparently, so does Demmetrius.

[Nick Gellie]

I think that the recent Nugget F5s at Carter Vintage had more punch and tone complexity than either of the Gilchrist tops.

I am likely to be accused of being a mandolin heretic here. The tone issues that Demetrius talks about are at such a fine scale as to not even be worried about. Some folks on the cafe are so caught up in minutiae of details in these end high instruments that they forget that mandolins are meant to be played. The more they are played with love and care the more they will sing for us.

And that tonal complexity can found in many different ways in the approach to the instrument. Look at Mike Marshall or John Reischmann.

[Demetrius]

Hate to say it, but I liked the engelmann tone a lot better.

Hi Mandobar and others!


I have to say, if you played it in person you would think otherwise. Believe me...
In the recording the engelmann top seems to have some bottom end but in reality it almost had none. It had a nice top end for sure but overall it had a very am radio quality to it. Great sustain! and for days... Originally I heard something in it I really liked and I thought it just needed to be played but when I sent it to Steve he said this is what it is. Its got Killer mid range, could cut through anything which is why I had named it Jaws. He said he was going for a different sound back then and very different graduations with a really flat top and extremely thick braces -and it was not an x braced. Anyone who played it would say, what's wrong with this? I played a solo show with it and I found it impossible. It created no layer beneath my voice. It is far better now, just not opened up yet. Anyone who plays it now says the only other move after this would be a Loar or a fern and even then they're not sure it would do any better than this. Mandobar I'd be interested in what you'd think if you played it in person, I believe you would feel the total opposite of what the videos displayed. Look I get get it, I'm insane for selling this mandolin. Steve did an unbelievable job, I can't believe the low end this has now but I feel it is more of a bluegrass machine and I really feel for my needs an Engelmann top would suit better. To be honest I'm starting to agree with a few guys on here that say I should maybe be looking at something with less $ involved. I think my one acceotion may be Dude #63, I really want that thing. Other than that like my ad says, I'd love a really high end A model with something other than a red spruce top. I'm not patient enough for red spruce Im realizing "spoiled brat" I know.. I think the Gil will develop more sustain, especially with a good set up and years of good play but I just don't feel I have the patience for that. And again, getting an A model for 1/2 the price it seems like a good thought to get something less costly and focus on other $ obligations that need my attention. Ive bot a lot of other music gear this year as my wife has stated so kindly lol. I love that Campanella that just popped up in the classifieds though. However it is red spruce so Im not sure it would do it for me...

Thank you to everyone that has chimed in, I haven't had a chance to go back and answer some of the questions but I'll have a chance in the next couple of days to do so...

Note: This was typed on a tiny phone so please excuse the errors.

Thanks,
Dem

[barry]

Demetrius-

Just to be clear, I prefer the sound of the old top for YOUR particular style of playing. This is based on some phrases of your original video about half way through. The composition played may be the same. But you are playing louder and more confidently in the second video. Nevertheless, I can tell that the original mandolin had a bit more "woodiness" to the tone, than the current iteration.
The new top is louder, deeper, but a bit more brash. Your assessment is correct. I think the re-topped version would make someone a truly rompin' bluegrass machine. But it's not as ideal for your style.
Then again, count me among the people who thinks Thile sounds better on his Dude than his Loar.

[Demetrius]

Like I said, in the video it sounds far better than it did in person. What you hear that is working with my style is sustain and that is a very big part of why I want to move away from Red Spruce. Id say it was more woody before but it was also a 30 year old top, but I just couldn't handle the nasal quality it had before.

Also, I agree that Thile sounded better on his Dude, but thats just my opinion and who cares what I think right? He seems happy with the Loar and for that price tag he better be lol.

P.S. So I just went back and listened to the video of the engelmann top and I almost feel I should take that video down, It literally sounded nothing like that. The new top for that matter does not sound like it does in the video either. Both poor representations of each instrument, my bad... :/


Demetrius-

Just to be clear, I prefer the sound of the old top for YOUR particular style of playing. This is based on some phrases of your original video about half way through. The composition played may be the same. But you are playing louder and more confidently in the second video. Nevertheless, I can tell that the original mandolin had a bit more "woodiness" to the tone, than the current iteration.
The new top is louder, deeper, but a bit more brash. Your assessment is correct. I think the re-topped version would make someone a truly rompin' bluegrass machine. But it's not as ideal for your style.
Then again, count me among the people who thinks Thile sounds better on his Dude than his Loar.

[almeriastrings]

I think I'd probably quit worrying about 'Dudes vs. Gilchists or Nuggets and just practice more.

[red7flag]

I think I'd probably quit worrying about 'Dudes vs. Gilchists or Nuggets and just practice more.

When listening to Tone Poems, the one unifying factor is that every guitar sounds like Tony Rice and every mandolin sounds like David Grisman. In spite of having an extremely varied collection of instruments, fortunately or unfortunately, every instrument I own sounds like me when I play it.

[Mandobar]

Dem, I've played a fair number of Gils. Not my thing, either way (whether it's your Gil with the new top or the original) I would be hard pressed to sell a few instruments and get myself a Gil. I'd be more inclined to chase a Kimble or a Heiden.

I've said this before instruments are easier to buy than sell, and those north of $10k are even harder to move on. I've been doing this a long time, and have seen a lot of mandolins, played a fair amount, bought and sold quite a few, and have held onto more than I probably should.

What I will say, is that there are a good number of non-big name builders who make sweet instruments. We are all out here dropping names and disregarding the most important important factor, the sound.

Dem, I think you are just "restless". I have a guitarist friend who was a corporate lawyer for years, and he told me that he went through 15 guitars one year while working very long hours. Relax my friend, and go out and make some music, and stop looking. I bet you will find exactly what you want when you least expect it.

Just a bit of advice, go get some monel strings and restring that Gil. They will soften up the tone a bit, and perhaps try a different pick with a more rounded bevel.

[Eric F.]

In spite of having an extremely varied collection of instruments, fortunately or unfortunately, every instrument I own sounds like me when I play it.

Sadly, this is true for me, too.

[dang]

After playing my 3 different mandolins a lot in a random rotation (a Weber Big Horn, a Collings MT2 and a Collings MT2O with a one piece birdseye maple back) I seem to always like the one I have been currently playing a lot and dislike aspects of the others for some reason. I think I am dialed into that sound, or it fits what I am playing or whatever. Really they are all spectacular mandolins and I should be happy with any ONE of them, let alone all 3!

I think if we spend so much time listening intently to one mandolin our ears adapt to that in some way and it literally changes what we hear.

For example, if I am playing my MT2 - exclusively and a lot - when I switch to my Weber the bass is not as pronounced, and it sounds almost weak to me. But then if I play my Weber - exclusively and a lot - it has this really strong midrange, a ridiculous chop and feels really well balanced, then when I switch to the MT2 it sounds great but a little bass heavy, not as balanced as I remembered it. I do tend to use the Weber for bluegrass and the MT2 for other genres but thats not a rule or anything.

If I was going to make up a scientific story to go with it I would say some mumbo jumbo about neural stimulation and attenuation of signals with repeat stimulus.

I guess what I am trying to say in a really long post is to not trust your ears in the short term, they may deceive you when talking about small nuances. You know a great mandolin in when it is in your hands but that isn't to say that it is great because of the story we tell ourselves. I can rationalize any specific characteristic to be the reason I like a given mandolin, but there are things going on on many different levels, conscious, sub-conscious (even epi-conscious?) and I try to accept that overall general feeling of me liking a mandolin or not will take time and may involve variables I didn't expect...

Just my opinion, YMMV, my advice is worth what it cost, ect.

(yes I am advocating you get 3 mandolins :mandosmiley::mandosmiley::mandosmiley:)

[sbhikes]

I know its hard to fully tell from the video but this is the tonal characteristic Im looking for.
Despite the low quality video you can still tell its strong points..


https://youtu.be/AT3sQjCFMgw

Maybe I don't have a connoisseur's ear, but I swear my The Loar sounds like that.


I really think you need to get on just playing the mandolin and not worrying about tone. You can get that with technique and the right pick.

This.

And even if you can't get the sound you want, either from your own skills or your current instrument, one day your perfect mandolin will come to you and meanwhile you'll have gained more skills and had years of fun making music.

[The Musician's Wife]

Confession time... Although I'm slightly dramatic in these videos, this truly is all in good fun and in no way intended to be offensive.

Onward!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS_-UhgCUZg&feature=em-upload_owner


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ika-tjuMmM&feature=em-upload_owner


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBGJYvjlayE&feature=em-upload_owner

[Nick Gellie]

Demetrius, your wife in her confessions confirms what I wrote earlier in this thread still holds true. I have learnt also that I listen very carefully to what my wife says. She also happens to be a musician.

Get an engelmann Spruce or a Italian Spruce topped MT2-V. Kym Warner of the Greencards has an Engelmann Spruce MT2-V. It has warmth and complexity in its tone. You can even buy one used sometimes on the cafe. Or get your local music through order you one of those. I have no NFI in Collings.

I just get so much pleasure out of my Collings MT. it does it for me at a tenth of the price of a Gilchrist. And I have played Gilchrists here in my home town of Beechworth and my Collings easily matches them in terms of tone. And I can play just about anything on it. And here it is.

160429

And your wife is spot on in her assessments of A models. That is why more and more mandolin players are playing A models. I can't believe my ears when I hear that lovely female Russian mandolin player play classical music on a Gibson A-9. And Demetrius started that thread.

[Don Grieser]

dang, great post. I've definitely noticed this happening to me.


After playing my 3 different mandolins a lot in a random rotation (a Weber Big Horn, a Collings MT2 and a Collings MT2O with a one piece birdseye maple back) I seem to always like the one I have been currently playing a lot and dislike aspects of the others for some reason. I think I am dialed into that sound, or it fits what I am playing or whatever. Really they are all spectacular mandolins and I should be happy with any ONE of them, let alone all 3!

I think if we spend so much time listening intently to one mandolin our ears adapt to that in some way and it literally changes what we hear.

[Mandobar]

Yup, but at some point though, ya gotta get off the buy sell buy sell buy sell buy sell merry-go-round and just dance with the one that brought cha.

[Josh Levine]

I'm starting to feel like this thread is one big advertisement for the Gil in the classifieds...

[barry]

Confession time... Although I'm slightly dramatic in these videos, this truly is all in good fun and in no way intended to be offensive.

Onward!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS_-UhgCUZg&feature=em-upload_owner


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ika-tjuMmM&feature=em-upload_owner


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBGJYvjlayE&feature=em-upload_owner



This is spectacular!!!

I think we should have ALL of our wives record video perspectives of our MAS.

I'll propose it to mine tonight!

[Nick Gellie]

Not necessarily my experience with Gilchrists - they are not the be and end all of mandolins. As Mandobar said in a post above there plenty other mandolins in $2000-10,000 that will do what a Gilchrist can do.

[The Musician's Wife]

This is spectacular!!!

I think we should have ALL of our wives record video perspectives of our MAS.

I'll propose it to mine tonight!

Great idea! I think video recordings in response to anything posted would be a cool thing to include. :grin:

[barry]

Great idea! I think video recordings in response to anything posted would be a cool thing to include. :grin:

I also happen to agree with you regarding the Gilchrist and the Givens. But if Demetrius says the neck on the Givens isn't comfortable, it's a deal killer.

[carleshicks]

I think he should just buy this Loar and be done with the search. Stop being so cheap. Lol


https://youtu.be/2A6y9i_FdBo

[Demetrius]

Tell you what, If I get another song on TV I'll go to Carters and take that baby home...


I think he should just buy this Loar and be done with the search. Stop being so cheap. Lol


https://youtu.be/2A6y9i_FdBo

[oliverkollar]

The OP should just buy a RT ticket to Nashville....go to Carter's, Gruhn's, and Cotton's, and play every mandolin he can.
Including the Loars at Carter's and Gruhn's. If he can't find something....then......well.......?

And living as close to TME as he does....there's about 30 more mandolins he can play.

I played a Heiden F and a 1917 F4 in Nashville about 6 months ago....couldn't afford either....made my mind up, just be happy with what I have.....both instruments I own, Duff A5 Collings MT2 Italian/Birdseye, are very different.....so I figured that's good enough....time to practice and be the best I can, and try to get the sound I hear in my head out of my hands.

John Reischman played my Collings....guess what......he still sounded like John Reischman.

:popcorn:

[Demetrius]

This looks like perfection to me... Great recording of it too, they have the best videos...
http://themusicemporium.com/mandolins/collings-mt2-torrefied-birdseye-maple-w-waverlys

[oliverkollar]

This looks like perfection to me... Great recording of it too, they have the best videos...
http://themusicemporium.com/mandolins/collings-mt2-torrefied-birdseye-maple-w-waverlys

Dude....that's like...what 2 hours or so from where you live????
Go play it....and everything else they have!

[Mandobar]

I have one of those in sunburst, and yeah, as good as that video sounds, it sounds ten times better in person. Look at the smile on Matt's face.


I played out with mine Monday night. No problem cutting through all the guitar players in the room. These are going to be far and few between for a while, but boy, for the price it's all that and a bag of chips.

[Nick Gellie]

Yes great sounding mandolin and nicely played too.

Isn't The Music Emporium in Massachusets not far from where Demetrius lives? He should try out an Italian Spruce topped MT2-V if they have one or the torrefied MT2.

[Nathan Kellstadt]

He should try out an Italian Spruce topped MT2-V if they have one or the torrefied MT2.

I concur.

http://themusicemporium.com/mandolins/collings-mt2-v-italian-birdseye-maple-honey-amber.6049

[carleshicks]

TME does have the greatest videos. This Derrington MM that they had for sale a few years ago had me drooling. They record the little nuances of the tone color better than most.


https://youtu.be/XqHNLlNrnLo

[Nick Gellie]

This looks like perfection to me... Great recording of it too, they have the best videos...
http://themusicemporium.com/mandolins/collings-mt2-torrefied-birdseye-maple-w-waverlys

I listened to this again all the way through and it is a mighty fine sounding mandolin. Much warmer than most Red Spruce topped mandolins. I believe Mandobar has one and she has a penchant for Collings mandolins. If you like a varnish finish go for the the Italian Spruce version. That said the grain in this mandolin is drop-dead gorgeous. I love the stand-out wood grain - exeptional. I wish I had a piece of top wood like that to make a mandolin with.

[pheffernan]

Yup, but at some point though, ya gotta get off the buy sell buy sell buy sell buy sell merry-go-round and just dance with the one that brought cha.

Say, Mary, how does the new Girouard GBOM compare with the old Mowry? :grin:

[Mandobar]

I have not had them out together yet. The Mowry is in need of a restring which I am avoiding (I hate those archtop tailpieces).

However, David Surette took the Girouard for a spin. It has a very strong voice, and certainly has plenty of volume for sure. I think they will be complementary though. I've no intention of selling either. I'm not on the buy and sell, at least for mandolins. It's funny though, I play one fiddle and one fiddle only. I have no desire to buy any more or play my backup fiddle at all.

Although, I've played that video of the Collings a few times, so if anyone has any interest in it before I lose my mind and buy it, I'd say run, don't walk to TME.

[ccravens]

This looks like perfection to me... Great recording of it too, they have the best videos...
http://themusicemporium.com/mandolins/collings-mt2-torrefied-birdseye-maple-w-waverlys

Wow. What a combination of looks and tone. A special instrument.

Buy this and be done with your search.

For now..

[barry]

This looks like perfection to me... Great recording of it too, they have the best videos...
http://themusicemporium.com/mandolins/collings-mt2-torrefied-birdseye-maple-w-waverlys

Demetrius-

I just watched this. Great recording. Very nice instrument. My prediction, though, is that you will find this instrument is a bit too "crispy" for your taste.

B

[Demetrius]

I think I agree with that statement Berry. That Collings sounds absolutely stunning but for what I do I think you're right, it is a little too literal and crisp for me. Although I will say I don't play the kind of music Ive posted on here, I am mostly into voice numbers. I'll leave the fast bluegrass tunes to the experts, I literally can't play thats fast..

Dem


Demetrius-

I just watched this. Great recording. Very nice instrument. My prediction, though, is that you will find this instrument is a bit too "crispy" for your taste.

B

[Demetrius]

Out of most of the mandolins Ive played, I feel like the only Adi tops that work for my playing style are the Gibson Master Models...

Dem


TME does have the greatest videos. This Derrington MM that they had for sale a few years ago had me drooling. They record the little nuances of the tone color better than most.


https://youtu.be/XqHNLlNrnLo

[Mandobar]

The crispness on the Collings comes from the birdseye, which is why I went with sugar maple.

160440160441

160442

[Demetrius]

Is that one yours? You're right the birdseye is stiffer...


The crispness on the Collings comes from the birdseye, which is why I went with sugar maple.

160440160441

160442

[Mandobar]

Yes, that is mine. Those are pics Andy sent me when it came in a few weeks back. It took a while to get. It has a very strong voice, but not as crisp as the birdseye one. I thought about changing out the strings right away, but decided to leave the D'addarios on for a while.

[barry]

Out of most of the mandolins Ive played, I feel like the only Adi tops that work for my playing style are the Gibson Master Models...

Dem

Demetrius-

I can speculate on the reason for that. In describing the Master Model program, Charlie Derrington often said he was very picky about only using, "select species of Eastern Maple" for the back and sides.
Whereas Gilchrist, Nugget, Kimble, and others, primarily use Sugar Maple to achieve Loarish results. I firmly believe that most Master Models are made with Eastern Red Maple. This warms them up a bit.
Randy Wood uses Red Maple with Red Spruce. So does Dundenbostel (or at least he did earlier Loar-inspired work). Also Hans Brentrup paired Red Spruce with Red Maple.
This pairing may be more in your wheelhouse.

[Demetrius]

This one looks nice...

https://cartervintage.com/collections/mandolins/products/collings-mt2-var-new?variant=43228568963


Yes, that is mine. Those are pics Andy sent me when it came in a few weeks back. It took a while to get. It has a very strong voice, but not as crisp as the birdseye one. I thought about changing out the strings right away, but decided to leave the D'addarios on for a while.

[Mandobar]

I'm not sure you are going to get the sweet trebles and loose upper end on that one. That's going to be more bluegrass, and tighter sounding (read crisp) sort of like your Gil.

[Nick Gellie]

The crispness on the Collings comes from the birdseye, which is why I went with sugar maple.

160440160441

160442


Mandobar clarify for us what we are looking at. Is this one an Italian Spruced top MT2-?

I reckon the crispness will fade with time Barry. It could also be where the right hand is striking. I still reckon Demetrius should try them out and not take the opinion of others

Another option is an Ellis A-5 with European Spruce top. Either find one second hand or get the Tom Ellis to make you one. I reckon Barry it will have the smoothness that Dem is looking for. It is not a traditional bluegrass axe. Is is also one of of the most beautiful mandolins made on the planet.

[soliver]

I am by no means qualified to take place in this discussion, but it is evident from the look and sound of the instruments presented thus far that there are some outstanding Mandolins out there!

[Mandobar]

Nic, that is a torrified adirondack spruce top, with a lacquer finish. Totally different sound from the italian topped (varnish or lacquer).

[Nick Gellie]

Thanks for that. So based on Demetrius's quest for the holy grail in mandolins which one would best suit his style?

[Mandobar]

Only he can answer that. If I read it right, he's trying to match the mandolin's voice with his singing voice so that they compliment each other. Only he can determine that.

[Nick Gellie]

Demetrius-

I can speculate on the reason for that. In describing the Master Model program, Charlie Derrington often said he was very picky about only using, "select species of Eastern Maple" for the back and sides.
Whereas Gilchrist, Nugget, Kimble, and others, primarily use Sugar Maple to achieve Loarish results. I firmly believe that most Master Models are made with Eastern Red Maple. This warms them up a bit.
Randy Wood uses Red Maple with Red Spruce. So does Dundenbostel (or at least he did earlier Loar-inspired work). Also Hans Brentrup paired Red Spruce with Red Maple.
This pairing may be more in your wheelhouse.

Yip, it is not only the top that makes the sound. I think Mike Black uses Red Maple on his oval As to warm up the sound. You get more focussed mid range with the Sugar Maple. That is why I am suggesting Demetrius works with a builder to specify exactly what he wants instead of searching for used instruments. Myself I would work with Tom Ellis. It gives one plenty of time to sell the Gilchrist whilst waiting for the new mando to be produced.

In the meantime buy a European Spruce topped mandolin as a backup mandolin with slightly different back wood to the one being made. One can work on technique till the cows come then.

[Larry S Sherman]

Also Hans Brentrup paired Red Spruce with Red Maple.
This pairing may be more in your wheelhouse.

It certainly is in my wheelhouse...and my real house. :)

Larry

[GProulx]

It certainly is in my wheelhouse...and my real house. :)

Larry

Larry, Do you own a Brentrup? Would love to see a photo!

[Demetrius]

I'm not sure you are going to get the sweet trebles and loose upper end on that one. That's going to be more bluegrass, and tighter sounding (read crisp) sort of like your Gil.

I honestly don't hear the crisp thing in the Gil, If anything its on the darker side Id say. Not quite as Dark as my Dude was, but definitely darker than my Derrington DMM. Ive actually owned an MT2, a really nice one too. I should've played that one and called it a day...

[Demetrius]

Yeh Larry, Im gonna break into your real house and take back my old wheelhouse

It certainly is in my wheelhouse...and my real house. :)

Larry

[Mark Seale]

While you're at TME saving money by going with the Collings MT2V Italian, you'll probably need to pair it with the Lawrence Smart mandola. Just being helpful.

http://themusicemporium.com/mandolins/lawrence-smart-f-custom-mandola-2014

[Nick Gellie]

Interesting that Demetrius has not taken up the idea of a Collings or an Ellis in his posts.

My strong opinion is that these A models are on a par with Brentrups, Dudenbostels, or Gilchrists. If a Collings MT can be made to sound as good as higher end mandolins, then a Collings MT-V or an Ellis A-5 with more bling can do the same if not better. As I said before, commission one of these high end mandolins to the right specifications, having also played a few in the flesh is also a good option.

Here is a draft specification sheet, which people may like to change at their behest:



Specs
Select Italian spruce top, maybe Red or Engelmann Spruce
Premium Eastern Red Maple back, sides and neck
Parallel tone bar bracing
F-soundholes
Triple bound ivoroid top/back/neck & peghead binding
Satin to gloss varnish finish
Bound headstock
13 Degree headstock angle
Ebony peghead overlay with appropriate MOP inlay
Ebony fingerboard
Mortise and tenon neck joint
22-frets, neck joins the body at the 15th fret
V shaped neck profile with 1 9/16" string spacing
Compound radius fingerboard
1 1/8" Bone nut
13 7/8" Scale length
Medium 18% nickel-silver or Eco gold fretwire
Mother of pearl dot fingerboard inlays
Fully adjustable truss rod
Custom adjustable floating ebony bridge
one-piece nickel or gold James tailpiece
Nickel or gold tuners with black or pearl buttons
Recommended string gauge - D'Addario J-74 (.011"-.040")

[Ivan Kelsall]

''Wheelhouse'' - absolutely one of Bill Monroe's best instrumentals !!.

Even working with one of the best luthiers to build a 'custom' build,one could never be 100% sure of the tonal outcome. The tones might be 'in the ballpark',but not quite there - & how would it develop with age ?. A mandolin might become 'darker' or develop a strong 'clarity of tone' like i hear in some Gils.

Having read the comments in the thread re.visiting Tom Ellis,about Tom's new personal F5,i'd be taking a trip to listen to it.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?134131-Ellis-A5-339-15-and-a-Visit-to-the-Ellis-Shop Post 24

However, we don't know whereabouts in the US Demetrius resides. In cases like this,it's always best (if possible), to have an example of a mandolin with the tone you want - or at least partially ie '' like this one but with more bass or mid or treble '',but just how accurately can a builder build to get a specific tone ?,
Ivan;)

[Nick Gellie]

I reckon with the right woods arching and graduations he can get pretty close. Interesting that Demetrius admitted he had a nice MT2 and also admitting that he could have called it a day. He can always go back to it with the great wood combinations that Collings now offers that weren't there a few years ago.

I have called it quits with my Collings MT. another cafe member said to me you can't get much better than a Collings MT. Well, you can but how much are you willing to pay? That is why I am suggesting a Collings MT2-V, mainly due to aesthetics and the varnish to give a smoother tone.

[William Smith]

My twin MT2-V's in birds eye blonde were real good mandolins, they were just new and I like old beat up and well played in mandolins-that's my passion, I don't like pristine. Dem may like something like those but with a different top? I'm not familiar with most of the different top woods and what tonal characteristics they have? Mystery cause I live where I can't play em! Major bummer! Kinda bummed The Music Emporium sold that Distressed MModel, that baby was sweet and very similar in tone to that 29 Fern they still have. That one is a wee bit too high priced in todays market! Old Gibson 5's have went down. I'm still lusting after Mr. Vessel's recent achievement-GNARLY man simply wicked! When I have the extra lettuce I know what my next horn will b for sure.

[Mandobar]

Ivan, if you look at Demetrius' ad for his Gil, he lives on Cape Cod, in Massachusetts. Boston is about an hour and a half to 2 hours, depending on the time of year and the traffic. There's only one road in and out of Cape Cod, although there used to be a ferry that went to Boston from the Northern side of the Cape during the summer

[Charlieshafer]

Ivan, if you look at Demetrius' ad for his Gil, he lives on Cape Cod, in Massachusetts. Which, as we New Englanders know, means he's playing for beach tourists in the summer and washed-up fishermen in the winter. There's only one choice, from Bill at Old Wave.

160460

[mtucker]

I honestly don't hear the crisp thing in the Gil, If anything its on the darker side Id say.
I would most definitely agree. There's a ton of clear mid and upper-range with depth in the mids in mine, but it's also got a killer low end that's on the deep dark side. The G string has the best fundamental I've ever played.

[Mark Seale]

TME has a pretty nice selection of different voiced instruments. This one would be on my list.

http://themusicemporium.com/mandolins/lawrence-smart-f5-2003

[barry]

Hi Demetrius-

Over the weekend, I have watched the videos of your instruments, and of your music. I have a few thoughts for you. You may consider it advice if you want, but they are my observations.
There appear to be two factors at play here.
1. You are a gigging musician looking for an ideal instrument to suit your playing style. This makes perfect sense.
2. You, just like many of us on here, enjoy the gear aspect of the art, as well as the art itself. Call it MAS if you want, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with this either. There are many gear-centric careers, hobbies and activities being fed by applicable forums just like this.
3. You are trying to rationalize point #2, by using point #1. They should be separate considerations.

That being said, and knowing that you are a somewhat obsessive guy (Once again, there is nothing wrong with that. It takes one to know one.;)), here is what I would do if I were in your position:
At least for right now, I would consider the Givens my gigging mandolin. It has the tonal quality you want. And I'm going to bet it blends well with your voice. I understand the neck profile issue. But my understanding is that you mainly gig on guitar, so you can deal with a slightly less than ideal profile for the limited mando performance time.

As for observation #2, hold on to the Gil for right now. It's may not be ideal for your style, but it's a desirable instrument. Keep playing stuff that comes your way, and use the Gil as trade fodder down the road. Something cool always finds its' way into the hands of those who seek. There is no reason to force things along. Obsessing over Collings A's isn't going to scratch that itch for long.

My 2 cents.

Barry

[Nick Gellie]

Problem is Barry the neck profile of the Givens does not suit Demetrius. He could sell the Givens and buy the Collings as his gigging instrument.

http://themusicemporium.com/mandolins/collings-mt2-torrefied-birdseye-maple-w-waverlys

And then sell the Gilchrist at his leisure and perhaps buy an Ellis F5 to replace it as his home playing mandolin

http://themusicemporium.com/mandolins/ellis-f5-deluxe

That way he has money left over for his family to go on a holiday somewhere.

[Mandobar]

I don't see this ending with a Collings and an Ellis. His tastes are in a different realm.

[barry]

I don't see this ending with a Collings and an Ellis. His tastes are in a different realm.

Agreed.

[Charlieshafer]

I don't see this ending with a Collings and an Ellis. His tastes are in a different realm.

Yeah. In fact, in watching this, I think the biggest problem is that he's putting way too much emphasis on the name of the maker. If he's really interested in sound, he'd try a bunch blindfolded. I think he'd be surprised, like many others, in what he actually likes vs. what he thinks he's supposed to like.

[Josh Levine]

Enough with the Collings already. If he wants a Collings he can go to the Music Emporium and grab one. I don't see moving from the Gil to the Collings as the end game.

I played that LSmart F5 at Music Emporium a few weeks ago. It is a great mandolin. Would be worth driving over to play. It was my favorite of the ones I played, other than the 15' VFern. That thing is a beast, but guessing it is too fundamental of a tone for Dem to want. That Smart it a very interesting mandolin.

[Mandobar]

Yeah. In fact, in watching this, I think the biggest problem is that he's putting way too much emphasis on the name of the maker. If he's really interested in sound, he'd try a bunch blindfolded. I think he'd be surprised, like many others, in what he actually likes vs. what he thinks he's supposed to like.


They did this with a bunch of Strads, and some violins from contemporary makers. 2/3's of the people liked the contemporary makers' instruments better. I laughed when I read that.

People get all caught up in the name thing, and they also get all defensive about their instruments, especially if they've invested a significant amount of money. I say, if the name is important, then hey, it's all part of the choice. I'm not going to fault him for that. We can all toss in our 2 cents, but it's truly the OP's choice, and he has to be comfortable with it.

I tell everyone this, and I may have said it before in this thread or maybe another, instruments are easier to buy than to sell. Not as difficult as real estate, but it can be a very frustrating process.

[Nick Gellie]

Good advice Mandobar,

Sometimes it is best to walk away from a prospective purchase rather than go through with it and later regret it. Interesting to see what Demetrius finally comes up though. I don't think it will be the end of his quest though.

I always thought if you were a singer you would be better off with a mandola or octave mandolin rather than a mandolin.

[soliver]

Even though I'm an inexperienced player I can say that I've played 2 different Gil's at my local jam. One was an F5 jr which was more contemporary and I really liked, but I was way less experienced then than now, and was mostly in awe of holding so great and so expensive an instrument in my grubby little paws. Last week, I met a fellow playing a Gil F5 who said he had owned it for many many years and bought it for around $3 grand as it was back when Gilchrist had "just moved back to Australia..." and he claimed it would now likely be worth around $35 grand. While I was still in awe of holding so great and expensive of an instrument, I did pay attention to what I liked and disliked about it; I can say that I really didn't care for it and I honestly was pleased to get back my Flatiron.

But the guy who owned it could play the H377 out it and blew my socks off.

All of that is to say, I think it all depends on A. Who's playing it and B. The ear of the beholder.

Just 2 cents form a newb.

[Jeff Mando]

They did this with a bunch of Strads, and some violins from contemporary makers. 2/3's of the people liked the contemporary makers' instruments better. I laughed when I read that. .

Of course, they were wrong, weren't they?

When I worked at a guitar shop and somebody was comparing fuzz/distortion pedals to sound like their favorite players......I always thought to myself, "yep, you can buy this and make your $3000 Les Paul sound just as bad as your buddy's $189 Squier!" :))

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Yeah. In fact, in watching this, I think the biggest problem is that he's putting way too much emphasis on the name of the maker. If he's really interested in sound, he'd try a bunch blindfolded. I think he'd be surprised, like many others, in what he actually likes vs. what he thinks he's supposed to like.

Hear, hear. Except if Demetrius were to try the blindfold test (originally suggested in an early post by his wife), he would need to start a thread about which blindfold he ought to use, and then only discuss really well known, really expensive blindfolds, and return blindfolds that he did not like for rather frivolous reasons, or maybe have a perfectly good blindfold rewoven with a different type of material. ;)

[Mandobar]

Of course, they were wrong, weren't they?

When I worked at a guitar shop and somebody was comparing fuzz/distortion pedals to sound like their favorite players......I always thought to myself, "yep, you can buy this and make your $3000 Les Paul sound just as bad as your buddy's $189 Squier!" :))

Wrong in what way? About what they preferred? My point was, don't buy an instrument because of the logo or the label, buy it because you like the way it sounds, how it plays, and because it encourages you to create the music you want to make.

[Demetrius]

Hmmm I wonder If the music emporium will be open today...
On another
I really enjoyed the feel and sound of this one when the emporium had it.

Dem


https://youtu.be/mZZs9ypAcQY

[Mandobar]

They are closed.

[Nick Gellie]

They will be open in two days time. Let us know your impressions.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Hmmm I wonder If the music emporium will be open today...[/video]

Happy Labor Day!

[barry]

http://youtu.be/ZMJvWOcJIiMDemetrius-

If it's the Master Model sound you are looking for, you should just hold the Gilchrist and break it in a bit. I tend to think that something like this would be more what you are looking for:

[ccravens]

Being near ME would be a dream..

[Josh Levine]

I played that Master Model recently and I was not in love with it. I didn't get to spend too much time with it. It definitely had an older vibe and sound. But, I much preferred the 15 Vfern. It was much more powerful and cutting. Probably closer to a Gil. I haven't heard too many Gils that sound like old Gibsons, so not sure that would happen any time soon if he kept playing the Gil. I think Gils seem to have a sound all their own. Red Diamonds do seem to capture that old Gibson sound. A buddy has a roasted RD and I like it more than that DMM that was at Music Emporium. Just my opinion. I agree with the Heiden sentiments. That seems to be a top class builder that has power, overtones, and richness.

[Mandobar]

I believe the MM at TME is gone.

[barry]

I believe the MM at TME is gone.

So is the Heiden. I thought we were just contemplating the "What if's?"

[Mandobar]

Since he said he was going there, and some mentioned they'd played it recently, I thought his intention was to go and play the MM that they had. They may have another. Not everything makes it to the website, and they are getting a lot of stuff these days. Most of it does not last long.


Larkstreet has a nice, fairly recent Heiden: http://www.larkstreetmusic.com/stock.html

and Carters has a really nice sounding Gil:

https://cartervintage.com/collections/gilchrist-mandolins/products/gilchrist-5-2004?variant=31996042179

This one is pretty tempting. The sound is a bit dark, but it has a big voice. I'm not a big fan of flat fretboards, but I'm tempted by the tone.

[oliverkollar]

Larkstreet has a nice, fairly recent Heiden: http://www.larkstreetmusic.com/stock.html



That is a very fair price......ie.low.
Someone should hop on it, never played a Heiden that didn't sound great.
Esp. the newer ones.

[The Musician's Wife]

Hear, hear. Except if Demetrius were to try the blindfold test (originally suggested in an early post by his wife), he would need to start a thread about which blindfold he ought to use, and then only discuss really well known, really expensive blindfolds, and return blindfolds that he did not like for rather frivolous reasons, or maybe have a perfectly good blindfold rewoven with a different type of material. ;)

Funny you should say this. He sleeps with an eye mask (aka blindfold, sorta)...and I had to talk him down from a super-duper fancy one that covers your ears too, and has this special padding. Silliness.

[barry]

Funny you should say this. He sleeps with an eye mask (aka blindfold, sorta)...and I had to talk him down from a super-duper fancy one that covers your ears too, and has this special padding. Silliness.

Like this???

160505

[Demetrius]

Like this???

160505

What the???

[Demetrius]

Mandobar,

You got me thinking... I decided to remove my ad and beat the spruce out of the Gil for a few days...
See whats happens..

Dem


Since he said he was going there, and some mentioned they'd played it recently, I thought his intention was to go and play the MM that they had. They may have another. Not everything makes it to the website, and they are getting a lot of stuff these days. Most of it does not last long.


Larkstreet has a nice, fairly recent Heiden: http://www.larkstreetmusic.com/stock.html

and Carters has a really nice sounding Gil:

https://cartervintage.com/collections/gilchrist-mandolins/products/gilchrist-5-2004?variant=31996042179

This one is pretty tempting. The sound is a bit dark, but it has a big voice. I'm not a big fan of flat fretboards, but I'm tempted by the tone.

[Demetrius]

Funny you should say this. He sleeps with an eye mask (aka blindfold, sorta)...and I had to talk him down from a super-duper fancy one that covers your ears too, and has this special padding. Silliness.

Hmmm Thats ok cause my wife sleeps with a shirt wrapped around her head and then a pillow on top of that...

[Mark Seale]

What strings do you have on it? Mine started to sing when I put the EXP74CMs on with the heavier E.

[Jim Garber]

He should be searching for at least three.

I am pretty sure that the first thread covered all aspects of multiple ownership and, of course, there are many of us MCers cho do just that -- even way more than 3. However, IIRC Demetrius does not think that way and he must have only one at a time, for some reason.

[Mandobar]

He has two right now, Jim. Just not two he'd like to keep.

[Nick Gellie]

I have an idea Demetrius for the Givens. Get a luthier to put a radius boards on it if it has the right neck profile.

[Demetrius]

Hey Nick,

The Givens does have a radius fretboard. The neck just makes my hand hurt...

Dem


I have an idea Demetrius for the Givens. Get a luthier to put a radius boards on it if it has the right neck profile.

[Nick Gellie]

Ok what profile does it have?

[Demetrius]

Dangit! someone put it on hold! The Collings! I was just about to contact them about it...
Oh well, wasn't meant to be..

[Mandobar]

I gave you fair warning. You gotta react faster.

[Mark Seale]

Sounds new, but it's all there.

aXY2juANr-0

[Demetrius]

:(

[Mark Seale]

Another nearby:

http://acousticmusic.org/product/collings-mt2-varnish/

[Mandobar]

Sounds new, but it's all there


And then some.

[Mandobar]

Another nearby:

http://acousticmusic.org/product/collings-mt2-varnish/


Last Fall they had a killer Italian Spruce and Birdseye MT2v. Phil Rosenthal (Seldom Scene) was in there playing it, and could barely put it down to go home.


There are two new Campanellas on the TME website.

[Mark Seale]

I'd hold out for varnish, but this one at least LOOKS killer at Elderly.

https://www.elderly.com/instruments/mandolin-family/mandolins/collings-mt2-custom-a-model-mandolin-case.htm

[Mandobar]

Read the disclaimer on the listing. That may not be the instrument you will get.

[Don Grieser]

Go to TME and get one of those Campanellas. Game over.

[CES]

Enjoying the view so far...2 new Campanellas popped up today...

[Nick Gellie]

Still does not beat the looks of the Collings MT2-V at Acoustic Music.

[pheffernan]

If a flawless build is the goal, and Engelmann a plus, then why not this (reduced price) Mowry?

http://www.mandomutt.com/products-page/mandolins/2012-mowry-f-5

[Mark Wilson]

I have never played one but it's got the look and the rep: (and they're collectors items? now!)
Red Diamond Vintage A5 (https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/114954#114954)

[Josh Levine]

I have never played one but it's got the look and the rep: (and they're collectors items? now!)
Red Diamond Vintage A5 (https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/114954#114954)

want

[Demetrius]

To me that Campanella F is something I could get crazy with...
Hot dang its beautiful...

[pops1]

I like the due, being an A person, but I do agree the F is also a thing of beauty. I have always liked the look of his mandolins. Hopefully, someday, I will get to play one.

[William Smith]

Yeh them Campa's but the price ? ouch one reason I buy used!

[Mandobar]

The Campanellas won't last long. These are far and few between.

[fatt-dad]

Dangit! someone put it on hold! The Collings! I was just about to contact them about it...
Oh well, wasn't meant to be..

the one with the baked top?

I really wanted that, RIGHT NOW! But. . . reason prevailed. And, I have my favorites. But that MT2 is something!

f-d

[Demetrius]

Yeh there was something about that Collings eh?

[Demetrius]

The Campanellas won't last long. These are far and few between.

I really should for the sake of my marriage sell the two mandos I have before buying anything else...
Something must be telling me something. I picked up my phone and was gonna dial the emporium to discuss the Collings, so I went on the and as I was dialing I noticed it was on hold. Really lucky person whoever you are, that has something special about it...

[Demetrius]

I have to say though, this Gil had some sort of slight change from one night to the next day. It has definitely development a little susatain. It feels glorious this evening...
This was recorded on an iPhone, dry, and with no effects. It is very powerful mandolin therefore it's overdriving the phone recorder .


https://youtu.be/pXEx-HEkPQY

Thanks,
Dem

[Nick Gellie]

Maybe it takes a bit of readjustment to get used to the tone of the Gilchrist.

I must admit it does sound good. ....maybe hang onto it and get a good A model to replace the Givens.