View Full Version : Avi avital's mando
Anyone know of someone that is making mandolins like his? I know the luthier that made his has kind of gone into retirement.
Mandolin Cafe
Aug-20-2017, 4:42pm
Here's a picture of it in case some are wondering, built by Arik Kerman, photo from our feature interview with Avi from 2010 (https://www.mandolincafe.com/news/publish/mandolins_001301.shtml).
https://www.mandolincafe.com/news/uploads/avismando.jpg
Dagger Gordon
Aug-21-2017, 1:35am
You might be further interested in these guys.
https://www.facebook.com/KermanMandolinQuartet/
And here is a thread on the subject
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?102738-Avi-Avital-and-the-Arik-Kerman-mandolin
xav88
Aug-21-2017, 11:52am
That thread is where i found out the maker isnt really pumping any new mandolins out.
I have a pair of prototypes under construction that explore similar ideas, though with a somewhat different aesthetic. The first I hope to finish off this afternoon actually... but neither will make any kind of public appearance or be up for sale, till I have both finished off together and been able to properly evaluate the designs. So I guess that's not a whole lot of help right now... but watch this space I guess?
I have a pair of prototypes under construction that explore similar ideas, though with a somewhat different aesthetic. The first I hope to finish off this afternoon actually... but neither will make any kind of public appearance or be up for sale, till I have both finished off together and been able to properly evaluate the designs. So I guess that's not a whole lot of help right now... but watch this space I guess?
Yea let me know because id like my next madolin to be similar to this style.
billhay4
Aug-22-2017, 10:34am
I don't mean to be confrontational here, but what do you mean by "similar to this style?" Do you mean looks like this? If so, you'll need someone who is adept at carving, specifically rope carving, to do the side soundholes on the top. Reproducing the Kerman shape is not hard, but really is only an aesthetic choice. If you mean, built like this, well, no one really knows much about how Kerman constructs these instruments. It seems they have a double top, but there have been many attempts to build a double top mandolin. Brian Dean's (https://www.flickr.com/photos/l4braid/albums/72157633881092796) Grand Concert is possible the most famous recent double top effort, and a spectacular one at that, but I am not sure it bears much resemblance to the Kerman construction technique. Not do other recent efforts. If you mean an instrument that sounds like a Kerman, this gets closer to the nub of the matter, but you'd better get Avi Avital as your tester because he is a genius and, I suspect, can make any mandolin sound magnificent.
What I'm really saying here is that no one is doing anything like Kerman to my knowledge, possible because of the lack of specifics about his instruments, but more probably because great sounding mandolins can be built in any number of ways and Kerman's way is his own, is complex, requires skills not usually associated with mandolin building, and is kept pretty much a mystery.
They sure are lovely, though.
Bill
Marty Jacobson
Aug-22-2017, 11:09am
Some notes about Kerman instruments I've gleaned from their owners:
- 2mm thick top with induced arch
- Carved back
- The air volume is "two floors" - separated by the internal "soundboard".
- The side soundholes are connected to the lower air volume via "chimneys"
- The round soundhole is open to the top air volume and the lower air volume
- The second soundboard is attached at three points: at the neck and about 2/3's of the way to the tailblock on the treble and bass side.
Jeff Hildreth
Aug-22-2017, 11:13am
billhay4:
"I don't mean to be confrontational here, but what do you mean by "similar to this style?" Do you mean looks like this?"
Tavy:
"I have a pair of prototypes under construction that explore similar ideas, though with a somewhat different aesthetic."
Me:
Not to be confrontational, but: Was this not obvious ?
I , too, have been exploring the "idea" and the mechanics and engineering of the Kerman mandolins (I have also altered the aesthetics). . I consider the tone produced by its players that to which I have aspired since first approaching "classical" mandolin 30 years ago. I, as do others, believe that the player greatly controls the tone but the "right" instrument makes it a complete package. I think the Kerman, for me, is the right "one".
Tavy .. I am very anxious to see and hear your results.
Jeff Hildreth
Aug-22-2017, 11:17am
Marty,
Considering the second "soundboard" is connected at three points..
Is it full sized...
Does it touch the sides?.. or
Does it "float" ?
Marty Jacobson
Aug-22-2017, 11:21am
Marty,
Considering the second "soundboard" is connected at three points..
Is it full sized...
Does it touch the sides?.. or
Does it "float" ?
I don't know the answer to that. I believe there is a mm or so gap around the second soundboard, but I don't know for certain.
Jeff Hildreth
Aug-22-2017, 11:24am
Thanks... that would make sense to me to "float".
Any idea of the "depth" of the back arch?
Some notes about Kerman instruments I've gleaned from their owners:
- 2mm thick top with induced arch
- Carved back
- The air volume is "two floors" - separated by the internal "soundboard".
- The side soundholes are connected to the lower air volume via "chimneys"
- The round soundhole is open to the top air volume and the lower air volume
- The second soundboard is attached at three points: at the neck and about 2/3's of the way to the tailblock on the treble and bass side.
That was what I had surmised from photographs - except for the internal soundboard not touching the sides - mine is rather different then in that the internal board is deliberately an air tight fit... except of course where I don't want it to be ;) Looks promising from tap tones in that it has at least 3 distinct body resonances spaced across the lower range of the mandolin - that was what I was hoping for - as for what it sounds like, well hopefully I'll have it strung up in the white later this week. It's twin, which is as identical as I can make them is now finished bar some final setup tweaks, but lacks the internal 'board: it's job is to act as the "control".
- - - Updated - - -
Tavy .. I am very anxious to see and hear your results.
Well... so am I :)
Jeff Hildreth
Aug-22-2017, 4:21pm
I have been interested in internal tops and backs for classical and flamenco guitars for some time and now for a few years .. mandolin.
Some nylon string builders refer to an interior sounding board as a second top and others refer to the piece as a back.
I don't have a comment about that but curious about the attachment.. as in touches the sides or does not.
I will note that Kerman makes classical guitars .. there are some that can be found with an internet search. They seem to share some features found on his mandolins.
xav88
Aug-23-2017, 12:01pm
I don't mean to be confrontational here, but what do you mean by "similar to this style?" Do you mean looks like this? If so, you'll need someone who is adept at carving, specifically rope carving, to do the side soundholes on the top. Reproducing the Kerman shape is not hard, but really is only an aesthetic choice. If you mean, built like this, well, no one really knows much about how Kerman constructs these instruments. It seems they have a double top, but there have been many attempts to build a double top mandolin. Brian Dean's (https://www.flickr.com/photos/l4braid/albums/72157633881092796) Grand Concert is possible the most famous recent double top effort, and a spectacular one at that, but I am not sure it bears much resemblance to the Kerman construction technique. Not do other recent efforts. If you mean an instrument that sounds like a Kerman, this gets closer to the nub of the matter, but you'd better get Avi Avital as your tester because he is a genius and, I suspect, can make any mandolin sound magnificent.
What I'm really saying here is that no one is doing anything like Kerman to my knowledge, possible because of the lack of specifics about his instruments, but more probably because great sounding mandolins can be built in any number of ways and Kerman's way is his own, is complex, requires skills not usually associated with mandolin building, and is kept pretty much a mystery.
They sure are lovely, though.
Bill
Ok until someone can make something with the same guts i just want the look. Bowlbacks are great but something about how his looks speaks to me. Now if it could sound like it...even better.
Just been testing the double top strung up in the white.... need to make a few changes and finish it off, but I'm impressed with the clarity I'm getting from it. It certainly does not make me sound like Avi Avital, but short of a brain transplant, I'm not sure what would ;)
Anyway for what it's worth, here's a short clip:
https://soundcloud.com/user-816892326/georgia-recorded-test
I like how warm it sounds
Jeff Hildreth
Sep-08-2017, 4:48pm
What strings ???
Thanks guys, I need to do a better recording comparison when the finish is on.
xav88: actually it's quite a bit brighter sounding than the "comparison" mandolin without the second SB.
Jeff: EFW74's on a 34cm scale (yes I know it's an odd scale, but it was what Ceccherini used, so not without precedent, and seems a reasonable compromise between added reach and the generally better sound of a longer scale).