Gibson Booth at Bean Blossom

[dj9124]

Friday I spent the day at Bean Blossom and got to visit the Gibson booth. They had a F9, F5G, Fern, Sam Bush and Distressed Master Model. I must say that I was most impressed with the Sam Bush model. For a brand new instrument it had it all right out of the box. It was also one of the easiest mandos I have ever played, I loved the neck. The distressed MM also sounded great but I think the Bush had it beat. The MM had a price tag of almost $24K on it but given the choice of the MM and the Bush for the same price I would have picked the Bush. I have not been a big fan of Gibsons but that has changed since visiting the booth. They all sounded very good but the Bush was just awesome. I also noticed that in the camp ground jams there were more Gibsons than I have ever seen before. Had the pleasure of listening to a Gilchrist that was also just awesome. It was a great day at Bean Blossom!
Dave

[Scotti Adams]

..yea.Some of those Bush models are very hard to beat..the extra mass in the neck gives them the edge.

[dj9124]

You know its funny but I did not even notice the extra mass in the neck. I know they are suppose to be larger but its not like I picked it up and noticed "Hey this neck is bigger", it felt very good to me.
Dave

[goose 2]

Yea, I had a Bush once. I traded it when I got my Master Model because I did not like the bigger neck, but man oh man that thing sounded good. I will never forget that mandolin.

[JimRichter]

Frankly, I don't mean to Gibson bash, but I don't think I liked any of the Gibsons--except the A5L--at the Gibson booth. #Spent some time Saturday with the new DMM--liked it, but I prefer my Kimble. #Outside of the Gibson name, I really don't see the $23K price tag. #Plus, this one was fairly well distressed and don't think I liked it looking that distressed. #At least with Fender Custom instruments, you've got the Closet Classic and the Relic==one looks like it's aged some but fairly mint and the other is a beater. #I like the aged "minty" look.

Guys there were friendly, so I'm not knocking the Gibson/FQMS booth. #But, I really can't see their price structure--outside of the Gibson name, you can really get a lot of bang for your buck by going to an established luthier. #

Now, I love Gibson instruments. #I've owned numerous Gibson solidbody/archtop electric (and flattop) guitars over the years (both new and vintage). #I've owned a Sam Bush F5, as well as two vintage F2s, a Fern-era F4 (the best mando I've ever owned period), an EM150, and an A3. #So I'm definitely not anti-Gibson. #

But (and there is always a but), I can not see paying the prices Gibson is asking. #My Bush had all kinds of finish/inlay/fingerboard imperfections in it--I remember asking Tony Williamson (who I bought it from) if it was a factory second or demo. #He said no, it was a new instrument. #I traded that mando to Mike D. for his Duff. #I asked Mike recently what became of the Bush. #He said he traded it to a guy in N.C. #That guy had it a little while when the neck separated from the body. #That was a 2002 Bush I bought new in late '02. #

Not saying that is representative of Gibson's mandos. #I am saying that for the price paid--especially since the prices went up--you're expecting a lot of bang for your buck and I don't know if there is a lot of bang there to justify it.

My Gibson rant. #It took me awhile at BeanBlossom (until I got into a great 4 hour picking session), to clear these thoughts re: Gibson out of my head. #I should have taken my Thorazine that morning.

Jim

[Kbone]

You know, sometimes i want to post something about the dogs (IMO)that I received in trade, or purchased without playing, but I seem to be hesitent, as one might have a different opinion, and many of these builders are dependent on word of mouth for survival.

It's a fine line I guess, but i think these builders are all trying to put out a good product, it's just not what some of us are looking for.

[JimRichter]

Don't disagree with that. I think they are all trying to put out the best product they can. My only criticism is the pricing scheme (and if something is priced in the premium range, it ought to be without reproach). Of course, if the market bears it, then my criticism is just pure fluff.

As I said earlier, I think Gibson makes a great product--but I am having a harder time accepting the increased prices. I thought the prices, as they were, were fair for the products being sold.

Jim

[mandoJeremy]

Dare I say it but I guess the market does bear it or OAI would be out of business already. #The thing I don't get is how many people are so willing to bash Gibson (and yes I have done it also) and I don't see anybody bashing the small builders. #They are not perfect and I have see MANY examples of their work. #What's the deal on that? #I have seen many VERY popular builders' work that I wouldn't dare trade my Bush model for (soundwise and not cosmetic) but I have also seen many that were so impressive (mainly cosmetic) and made me think about getting rid of it. #To each their own....find the sound that does it for you and stick with that because after years of playing it's going to look pretty freakin rough anyways!

[GTison]

To bash "Gibson" is easier becasuse it is impersonal generally. #Because Gibson is a company not an individual. #It's easier to say "I played a Gibson and it was not as good as my ol' Billybob' mandolin. #Not many folks have a personal relationship with "Gibson" nor are they likely to develop one. #Aside from knowing BigJoe or other individuals at the factory. #
# # I wish now I had gone to 'the Bean' #just so I coulda played that DMM. #I went last year. #And they had some mandos there, but the buzz (at least from Gibson) was about the Bibby Model, which I don't care for the looks of. #And that's the first time I played an Eastman too. #There was some music store from Indy there with them. #They were nice for the money. #But personally if I had been in the market I would prob. bought a F or A 9 instead of an Eastman. # I Got to meet Danny Roberts, #Play Bobby Clark's old Fern, #and watch Jessie McRenolds play his new Fern, and listen to Butch Robbins wax eloquent. # Overall it was a blast for a Florida boy.

[Jim Roberts]

How does "extra mass in the neck give them (the Bush model) the edge"?

[Scotti Adams]

..Ive always been under the understanding that a heavier neck adds more oomph! to an instrument..its been my perception and many others too...though some may argue the point. My new Rose has a nice beefy neck and I truly believe that being added in with the fine top wood has gave this mando the edge.

[earthsave]

Spent quite a lot of time at the Gibson booth this past week. Played all the mandos there plus a few others that were owned by the Gibson rep. Off all them I'd rate them this way.... Lawson's Alan Bibey was about the sweetest mandolin I think I have heard. Jake Brown had that thing smokin'. Next was a close call between the Sam Bush and the Distressed MM. The distressed played easier, but I liked the overal sound of the Sam Bush.

Personally, at my level of playing skill, which after spending a week at Bean Blossom is pretty much a novice, I caint see myself buying anything more than I already have.

[Kevin K]

I play a Summit with a larger neck and do believe it helps in the oomph department compared to regular neck models of the same kind. That along with the x-braced engelmann top.

[Scotti Adams]

Thats a real good combo you got there in that mando Kevin..Im sure shes a goodin..

[Russ Jordan]

Now I know why folks are selling all those Loars with the skinny necks.

[Moose]

Yeah Russ!! - I never liked them skinny-neck Loars anyhow!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Ken Sager]

To bash "Gibson" is easier becasuse it is impersonal generally. #Because Gibson is a company not an individual. #It's easier to say "I played a Gibson and it was not as good as my ol' Billybob' mandolin. #Not many folks have a personal relationship with "Gibson" nor are they likely to develop one. #Aside from knowing BigJoe or other individuals at the factory.
All true, plus Orville has been dead for, what, two or three centuries?

[JimRichter]

As far as bashing Gibson, I didn't bash Gibson. #I like the company and I like their product. #I think there are as many people to quickly jump on the "anti-bash Gibson" bandwagon as there are the "bash Gibson" bandwagon. #I like their product, I like their people, and I think they're a reputable company.

My complaint is that I think they've made some business moves this last year (price increases, limiting retailers, etc.) that alienate customers and people who've though of returning to the Gibson fold. #I'm not anti-Gibson and I played those Gibsons because I sincerely wanted to see what they were recently creating. #But, given that I have no money and basically have to sell my plasma to buy something, I weigh my dollar very carefully. #My contention is that my dollar (and maybe your dollar may be different) has to go a lot further, so I expect the best value for my money. #

When I bought my Sam Bush, I thought that was a lot of value for my money, especially since I got a good deal from Tony Williamson. #That mandolin turned out to be a lemon (but is not repsentative of Gibson mandolins overall). #When I looked at $5500 for a Bush, it was very competitive to several respected small builders out there. #Now Gibson has priced themselves beyond that--a premium for the Gibson name. #I don't think the Gibsons are better or worse--just different and w/ a historic name--than the best small builders' mandos out there. # #My money tells me that if a small builder can build a comparable mandolin to Gibson that is less expensive--but doesn't cut corners in tone or fit/finish--I should go with the small builder.

I'm not saying that small builder "billybob"'s mandolin is better than Gibson. #In the case of my Kimble, I thought it sounded as good as any Gibson there. #I'm not saying Kimble's are the best. #I'm saying that there was nothing there that spurred any MAS in me to sell my Kimble, my car, my kid, and my wife to buy a $23K Distressed Master Model. #For once, I felt happy with the mandolin I have.

My post was not to Gibson bash or proclaim the virtues of small builders. #Maybe I didn't express myself clearly. #There has been a lot of discussion in the last 6 months on this board regarding Gibson price increases and retail strategies. #My visit to the Gibson booth was in good part a personal evaluation of how much I'd be willing to go to extraordinary measures to buy a new Gibson master model level mandolin.

Jim

[Scotti Adams]

..great post Jim

[evanreilly]

There has been a thread running on Flatpick-L aboout how a little extra mass in the neck can translate into a 'better' sound on a guitar.
I think Journeyman Jack Lawrence was specifically speaking how a slightly wider fingerboard and 'heftier' neck gave a boost in perceived volume and tone on a new guitar he had obtained. Several others are chiming in with their observationos as well.
Mandolins? Gimme a skinny lil neck on an 82 year old F-5 any day!!!

[JimRichter]

The Wayne Henderson F5 I owned had an incredibly skinny neck (both in width and profile), but had an incredible tone and was as loud as sin.

Jim

[danmills]

As kind of a "me too" to the original post: I played a bunch of Gibsons at the 5th String booth at Grass Valley last weekend and was favorably impressed. At just 2 years into my personal bluegrass mandolin journey, I'm still learning about the differences and what I like. I had played maybe a dozen Gibsons before, some new and some old, and never liked any of them better than my '95 Flatiron A5. This time around, I liked everything I played (including my Flatiron). The change may have more to do with me than the instruments, i.e. my growth as a player/listener.

I also visited the Luthier's Pavilion and played several Brentrups, a couple of Coles, and three of Michael Lewis' mandos. I won't try to rank them (who cares what I think anyway), but I will say that I came back and played the Brentrups over and over. Mr. Brentrup was very friendly and welcoming.

The chance to play so many high end mandolins more or less at the same time was really fun and educational.

Dan

p.s. I also played an archtop guitar by Michael Lewis that was the coolest sounding non-flattop guitar I've ever played. I don't have the chops to do anything with it, but the tone was fascinating--loud edgy single notes, but a smooth blend when strumming a few jazz chords.

[Big Joe]

Michael Lewis, Hans Brentrup, and Will Kimble are all three great luthiers who build great mandolins. I would love to own one of each of theirs. That is not likely to happen on my pay, but it would be cool! There are a good number of great builders on the planet today. Great builders, but even more importantly, each of these guys are great guys and the kind of people I like to call my friend. While each has their own personality and they are each a joy to see the several times a year we get the opportunity, and they each build very good mandolins.

I would never claim Gibson to be the only mandolin. I don't believe anyone builds a better one, but that does not mean others do not make great mandolins also. I think the good ones would think no one makes a better one than they do. It is not a "I'm better than you" thing. We all build great ones and none of them need to take a backseat to anyone else. What a wonderful time to be alive and a mandolin freak!

[Rick Schmidlin]

I played a Bush at Westwood Music and compared it to a Collings MF5. Both were FANTASTIC is sound. The problem was that the Bush was not perfect in workmanship. In fact I#would call it very disapointing. Collings was perfect in every way in both respects! I am now a happy owner on a Collings MF5 because of that and many other trail days and am one happy camper. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandoJeremy]

Great post BigJoe and I do think I qualify as a freak, I just don't know if it is mando related or not!!!!! #

Rick, I am glad you got the mando that spoke to you and that is all that matters. #It is really all about the sound once you get beyond the above average level of lutherie and my Bush model has certain flaws (and so do all Loars) but it just sounds great and that does it for me.

[mandoJeremy]

As the Gibson guys have said, "You have spoken with your checkbook or cash" and that is all you have to worry about as long as you are satisfied. #That is where your vote counts.

[Kbone]

I'm with Jeremy " it's about the sound " I remember a few yrs ago visiting Greg Boyd's booth at our festival and he had a beat up ( Monroe like)mandolin from a local ( Wyoming)builder in his area, and this baby sounded so good and sweet that I offered him my Martin right on the spot for it, damm if he didn't decline. The scroll was a little crooked, and all the finish was worn off - no matter, she sounded real nice and that's what really matters, at least to this hack.

[Ken Berner]

Hey Scotti, were you saying "good'un" or "Godin"? Sorry; that is, as my wife calls it, a sick attempt at sick humor.

[mandoman4807]

How perfect is your mandolin? This always seems to be the issue. Who gives a !@#$. Unless you plan to let it sit in it`s case for 80 years. For me it is all about tone, and playability. I prefer to play mine, and therefore it will no longer be a flawless mandolin http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif



Darrell

[Scotti Adams]

..thats the way I look at it Darrel

[goose 2]

When I got my MM I thought it was more or less flawless in finish. It ain't nomore. The finish has been played off the neck, and there is player wear all over the instrument. It sounds just fantastic and plays like butter. I also much prefer the way it looks now than the first time I opened the case. Fit and finish are nearly meaningless to me. Tone, tone, tone is what its all about. Playability is important as well but like tone, that only gets better with playing the thing.