View Full Version : Bacon mandolins - who actually built them?
nmiller
Jul-09-2017, 5:54am
I have a Bacon Professional on its way, though it will need considerable restoration to make it playable. Looking at the pictures, I have a hard time believing that it came out of the banjo factory at Groton. I know it's been discussed a few times, but I'm curious to hear any new insight.
I've seen it posited that these were built by Regal or Lyon & Healy. While Bacon did source their guitars from Regal, that was about 10 years later and this doesn't really look like the handiwork of either company. One source says they were built by Gretsch, but I'm not sure if they were even building mandolins yet in 1921 - certainly not ones of this caliber. That leaves Vega - which I find a lot more plausible due to stylistic details and geographic proximity - and any number of small Boston or NYC shops. From what I've seen, it's possible that there were several builders, at least for the Amateur model.
Have I missed any possible builders, or any info out there?
Bill Kammerzell
Jul-09-2017, 8:09am
I had quite a bit of of research I had done when I owned an early 20's Amateur. I believe I passed it on to the the guy I sold it too. Everything I recall was that Bacon built it in Groton, Ct. At least that's what the label read as well as the catalog I had. Here are some pics I had from the catalog. With the exception of the last one.:))
As far as Gretsch goes, they bought the company later on as far as I know. What I recall is that Bacon only built those 3 models of mandolin for a decade or less. I know when I was researching them there was plenty of information on the internet but I had to look. Not sure I got a lot of it here.
MikeZito
Jul-09-2017, 8:15am
Everything I recall was that Bacon built it in Groton, Ct. At least that's what the label read as well as the catalog I had.
Wow, that is news to me. The town of Groton is just across the bridge from where I work. It is funny that we are located almost exactly in between the old Ovation and Guild factories, but I had no idea that this immediate area every produced and instruments. I will have to look into this further. Thanks!
Bill Kammerzell
Jul-09-2017, 8:20am
Here is a little history. Looks like the factory was devastated by a hurricane. Also some mention of the sale to Gretsch.
http://acousticmusic.org/research/history/large-shop-guitar-builders/bacon-and-day/
Bill Kammerzell
Jul-09-2017, 8:53am
Wow, that is news to me. The town of Groton is just across the bridge from where I work. It is funny that we are located almost exactly in between the old Ovation and Guild factories, but I had no idea that this immediate area every produced and instruments. I will have to look into this further. Thanks!
Appears the Bacon factory was right on the Groton waterfront at 169 Thames Street. The current location of Puffins Restaurant. Looks like they get decent reviews.
Bill Kammerzell
Jul-09-2017, 9:05am
I have a Bacon Professional on its way, though it will need considerable restoration to make it playable. Looking at the pictures, I have a hard time believing that it came out of the banjo factory at Groton. I know it's been discussed a few times, but I'm curious to hear any new insight.
I've seen it posited that these were built by Regal or Lyon & Healy. While Bacon did source their guitars from Regal, that was about 10 years later and this doesn't really look like the handiwork of either company. One source says they were built by Gretsch, but I'm not sure if they were even building mandolins yet in 1921 - certainly not ones of this caliber. That leaves Vega - which I find a lot more plausible due to stylistic details and geographic proximity - and any number of small Boston or NYC shops. From what I've seen, it's possible that there were several builders, at least for the Amateur model.
Have I missed any possible builders, or any info out there?
From what I am reading at Acousticmusic.org, David Day, who joined Frederick Bacon in 1922, had experience in mandolin and guitar design at Vega. That may account for stylistic similarities. Bacon started building mandolins right around that time. As for Gretsch, the Bacon business sold out to Gretsch in 1939.
http://acousticmusic.org/research/history/large-shop-guitar-builders/bacon-and-day/
Bill Kammerzell
Jul-09-2017, 9:13am
Here are some historical timelines of different builders. Bacon is at the bottom 3rd of the page. Looks like the Groton Facility opened in 1920. Again, right around the time, David Day joined the business and Bacon started their mandolin making. Before that it appears there was something in Forest Dale, VT.
http://acousticmusic.org/research/guitar-information/identifying-vintage-guitars-banjos-mandolins/
nmiller
Jul-09-2017, 9:46am
Some early '20s stuff that was labeled Groton wasn't actually built there. I had a '21 tenor banjo with a Groton stamp; the rim may have been built there, but the neck definitely wasn't. The Bacon guitars of he 1930s were built by Regal in Chicago but still labeled Groton. Given that the mandolins don't resemble the banjos they were building at the time, there's no doubt in my mind that they farmed them out.
MikeEdgerton
Jul-09-2017, 9:50am
Just as a side note, by the time Gretsch bought them Gretsch was farming out the mandolin building.
allenhopkins
Jul-09-2017, 3:20pm
According to this Mugwumps history by Ed Britt, (http://www.mugwumps.com/BaconSerialNumbers.html) Bacon cataloged carved-top mandolins in 1920, before the Groton facility opened in 1921, and two years before Day joined the firm. This acoustic music.org article (http://acousticmusic.org/research/history/large-shop-guitar-builders/bacon-and-day/) credits Day with the design of Vega's cylinder-back mandolins, and implies that he brought his mandolin design skills to work with Fred Bacon in Groton. However, if Bacon was offering a carved-top design two years before Day joined the Bacon Co., that undermines the theory that he designed Bacon's mandolins.
Regal clearly did build some mandolins marked "Bacon"; research yields a pic of a clearly Regal-built "reverse scroll" mandolin labeled "Bacon Sultana Grande." But these Bacon two-points don't look Regal-esque at all. Nor do they look much like Vegas, though obviously Vega could have built to Bacon's (or Day's) specs.
What's the serial number on your Bacon? Supposedly the serial numbers were at 5xxx when the Groton plant opened, 9xxx three years later. Of course, these are banjo serial numbers; mandolins may have been in a different series.
Bill Kammerzell
Jul-09-2017, 3:46pm
Couldn't find that Mugwumps history. I made it difficult by forgetting the name.
nmiller
Jul-09-2017, 4:02pm
Regal clearly did build some mandolins marked "Bacon"; research yields a pic of a clearly Regal-built "reverse scroll" mandolin labeled "Bacon Sultana Grande."
I forgot all about these - yup, they're definitely Regal products. I meant the early '20s mandolins only, the Amateur, Professional and Artist models.
Jim Garber
Jul-10-2017, 11:28am
My Bacon Artist is numbered 204 and label is signed "William Place 1921." All the Bacon mandolins of those styles have three-digit numbers and most seemed to be dated 1921:
051 Amateur
114 Artist
156 Amateur
161 Artist
182 Professional
20X Professional
204 Artist
221 Artist
221 Artist
316 Professional
432 Amateur/Student
158992 158993 158994
Charlieshafer
Jul-10-2017, 4:11pm
William Place was Bacon's counterpart to Gibson's Lloyd Loar. Obviously not as respected or as well known, but the Place signed Bacons are the ones to look for, and can sound really sweet. George Youngblood has restored a number, and was the source for much of Acoustic Music's article. He's currently restoring an Artist for me, but then again, he started 3 years ago and I keep forgetting about it.
Jim Garber
Jul-10-2017, 4:53pm
I don't know if I would call Place Bacon's counterpart to Loar. Yes, they were both mandolin players but I am not sure how much Place had influence over the design at Bacon as much as Loar did at Gibson. Also, Loar might be more remembered these days by us modern players but I believe that Place was pretty famous in the mandolin concert scene back in his day. He also wrote a respected mandolin method (http://www.worldcat.org/title/william-place-jr-method-for-the-mandolin-complete-in-three-volumes/oclc/28521617) and made recordings (http://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/talent/detail/53631/Place_William_Jr._instrumentalist_mandolin) quite a bit as well.
Graham McDonald
Jul-10-2017, 6:01pm
While not contributing much to answering Noah's original question, here is the first advertisement from Bacon about the new line of mandolins, as published in The Crescendo in April 1921.
159002
Jim Garber
Jul-10-2017, 6:26pm
I take back some of what I said above. According to that ad that Graham posted Place was the Loar of Bacon (my next band name). Still I wonder if Loar was any more famous at the time as Place.
Charlieshafer
Jul-11-2017, 6:14am
Good band name, indeed. However, "Plectral Sacrifice" might work well, too. I have to say, I love the vocabulary used in those old ads. Thanks, Graham, for putting that up. Good question on the level of fame between the two. Did Loar benefit by a much better marketing program at Gibson, thus making him the mandolin-design icon as opposed to Place? I have played very few Bacons, but really liked them all. Then again, an A2Z I had might be my favorite.. I don't know. Maybe some day someone with some time will try to unravel a timeline between the two's accomplishments and see how they stack up, at least in terms of attempted innovations.
Capt. E
Jul-11-2017, 9:52am
I owned a Bacon Amateur a few years back (still my avatar) and sold it to David Grisman. I had to have the fretboard planed flat before it was playable. I found it to be heavily built, but an OK mandolin. Didn't Grisman produce a mandolin modeled after the Professional?
Capt. E
Jul-11-2017, 9:55am
Look at my Albums for some good photos of the Bacon Amateur. I remember it also had a rather low serial number. Sorry I didn't take a photo of the label.
allenhopkins
Jul-11-2017, 10:29am
...Didn't Grisman produce a mandolin modeled after the Professional?
Eastman DGM-2. (https://www.eastmanguitars.com/mandolins-grisman-dgm2/) I have one; nice mandolin.
Bill Kammerzell
Jul-11-2017, 10:42am
I don't recall Place signing my Amateur. Very likely didn't sign them all.
Jim Garber
Jul-11-2017, 11:47am
Didn't Grisman produce a mandolin modeled after the Professional?
Eastman DGM-2. (https://www.eastmanguitars.com/mandolins-grisman-dgm2/) I have one; nice mandolin.
Actually, the Eastman version was a copy of the Bacon Artist model.
nmiller
Jul-11-2017, 12:04pm
I don't recall Place signing my Amateur. Very likely didn't sign them all.
I imagine he simply signed around 1000 labels at one time for Bacon to use as the instruments were shipped - hence the apparently universal 1921 date.
Graham McDonald
Jul-11-2017, 6:11pm
Place and Loar were contemporaries in the mandolin world, and if mentions in the Cadenza and Crescendo are anything to go by, Place was better known in the teens and early 20s. At the same time, both magazines were east coast based and tended to focus more on east cast musicians, Place being from Providence RI. Place and Loar were both part of a group of virtuosic musicians who were around at that time and Professional members of the American Guild, the organisation which promoted the mandolin, guitar, banjo world.
Back to Noah's original question about who made them. Bacon certainly did hint at making them themselves, but so did lots of other 'manufacturers'. Vega were still making the cylinder back instruments at that time and we don't know if they had the expertise to carve mandolins. It would be interesting to compare fingerboards between Vegas and Bacons. Both used a 13.85" scale, and I would imagine that Vega had a standard dimensions and slotting pattern. Some comparison might be illuminating.
cheers
Capt. E
Jul-12-2017, 10:36am
Look at my Albums for some good photos of the Bacon Amateur. I remember it also had a rather low serial number. Sorry I didn't take a photo of the label.
Actually, I really don't remember a label on my Amateur and my photos do not show one.
Gibson John
Apr-23-2018, 4:38pm
My Bacon Artist is numbered 204 and label is signed "William Place 1921." All the Bacon mandolins of those styles have three-digit numbers and most seemed to be dated 1921:
051 Amateur
114 Artist
156 Amateur
161 Artist
182 Professional
20X Professional
204 Artist
221 Artist
221 Artist
316 Professional
432 Amateur/Student
158992 158993 158994
Jim,
I have a Bacon Professional mandolin #108 that can be added to the list:
Jim Garber
Apr-23-2018, 7:10pm
Jim,
I have a Bacon Professional mandolin #108 that can be added to the list:
Can you post some photos?
ollaimh
Apr-23-2018, 8:05pm
My Bacon Artist is numbered 204 and label is signed "William Place 1921." All the Bacon mandolins of those styles have three-digit numbers and most seemed to be dated 1921:
051 Amateur
114 Artist
156 Amateur
161 Artist
182 Professional
20X Professional
204 Artist
221 Artist
221 Artist
316 Professional
432 Amateur/Student
158992 158993 158994
now that is a real beauty, what does it sound like?
Gibson John
Apr-26-2018, 7:51am
167096167095167094
The label is not in the best shape but I can see the serial number 108 & part of the signature is not there but the year 1921 is.
MikeZito
Apr-26-2018, 2:55pm
If I look out my office window I can literally see the old Bacon factory . . . but I have never seen one of the mandolins in this area.
Strange.
Jim Garber
Apr-26-2018, 3:45pm
167096167095167094
The label is not in the best shape but I can see the serial number 108 & part of the signature is not there but the year 1921 is.
The mandolin looks like it is in excellent shape.
Jim Garber
Apr-26-2018, 4:29pm
If I look out my office window I can literally see the old Bacon factory . . . but I have never seen one of the mandolins in this area.
Strange.
Hey, Mike. Take a photo and post it here.
MikeZito
Apr-26-2018, 7:39pm
Here is a shot of the front of the building, as it stands today:
167124
Some additional background on what Willkamm contributed in Posts #4 and 5:
The address is now a restaurant. If you go around to the back of the building there are some basement offices that may be a part of the original Bacon factory. The reason I say 'may' is because the site sits right on the edge of the Thames River - and back in 1938 a horrendous hurricane blew through this area, and almost all of New England, that utterly destroyed everything in its path - and just about anything that sat along the Thames River in the town of Groton was practically annihilated. I can't say what remains of the original building, but there is a good chance that at least some of it was destroyed, 80 years ago.
nmiller
Apr-26-2018, 7:46pm
Mike - that restaurant uses the same address as the Bacon factory, but it's a few buildings down from the original factory - which does survive, but is basically now a barn used for storage by the owners of the house out front. There are pics of it here (https://www.banjohangout.org/archive/308045).
MikeZito
Apr-27-2018, 6:44am
Well, you learn something new everyday. I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the town actually switched addresses - this is the same town that, until a few years ago, had multiple streets with the same names.
THANKS for the info - I will have to drive by later today and check it out . . . and check the local pawn shops again to see if any Bacon's have shown up!
Gibson John
Apr-27-2018, 4:48pm
167147167148167149Yes it's in excellent shape & plays & sounds great!
My son also has a Bacon Amateur mandolin serial number 432 but it does not have a label inside but stamped on the headstock. I think it's a 1922 but not sure, if anyone does know if correct or what year it its post it.
Dave Bradford
Oct-19-2020, 7:06am
This Bacon Belmont (https://www.ebay.com/itm/184494157689?ul_noapp=true) mandolin was just listed but doesn’t look like any other Bacon model. I’m wondering if it was one that was produced after Bacon had sold out to Gretsch in 1939?
Dave Bradford, it appears to be very similar to a Harmony Monterey- I have one- sold as an S S Stewart that is from 1938 or 1939- the f holes are different as are the tuners which suggest this mandolin is late 1940s or even 1950s. The alternative, is a Stra-O-Lin of the same era- late 40s. Here is a Harmony Monterey which I think it is now for sure:
https://reverb.com/au/item/3748569-harmony-monterey-h417-mandolin
Jim Garber
Oct-19-2020, 9:02pm
Nice to resurrect this older thread. As far as who made these my guess is that either Bacon brought someone or a few folks into the factory to tool up and make the few of these we find. Or else they contracted out to some unknown luthier(s). They are nicely made but don't really resemble any other makers even in terms of the minute details. Anyway, another mystery we may never find out.
They seem much rarer than Lyon & Healy especially the Artist model. Many years ago I was at a party in NJ and was playing mine and Stan Jay of Mandolin Brothers was there and he came up to me out of breath and said, "What is that? I have never seen one of those."
Looking again at that Bacon Belmont on eBay, all the metal fittings are secured with Phillips screws. I don't know when Harmony went over to Phillips screws but I assume it was well into the 1960s making this mandolin much newer than I had first thought.